Logitech K400 has been my goto for a decade. I just used it yesterday for setting up a Raspberry Pi and used it a week ago for doing a clean install on a Dell PC I got from an estate sale for $1. The built-in trackpad works well, my only nitpick is I hate the scrolling it does if you try to use the side of the pad. At my last SysAdmin job I used one of those cheap Bluetooth remote control sized keyboard trackpad combos for all of the thin clients I had to maintain on a factory floor.
I Second this, the K series keyboards are really good, there is a newer version of it called the K400 Plus as well, it works very well for a membrane keyboard and is great for a mobile/portable device.
Still love the Logitech K400 series. I have about 8 of them for various setups and workspaces around the house. This includes a KVM for my customer workbench for computers, a KVM for my server rack, HTPC, Arcade Cabinet, etc. The K400r, which is most of the versions I have used 2xAA, can operate with 1, the Unify receiver is nice, cheap to replace, works on KVMs. Keys are ok, they're dome keys, but the added bonus of a decent multi-touch track pad is awesome! There are a ok number FN keys, but again, nothing works as great as a real 103-key keyboard and mouse combo. I enjoy that it has all the right 83-key style and layout. I forgot to add, while I don't recommend it for everyone in this situation, it's great for datacenters that have shielding from the outside world or non-sensitive servers. Most of the servers I work on only have 2 USB ports and someone keeps stealing the hub we use on our crash cart. When you need a keyboard, mouse, USB drive plugged in, this is a must, just don't forget to remove the adapter before you close up.
I've used K400/plus models for years and when you factor in the common under $20 sale prices I've never found an option that comes close. I've even spilt beverages on one and it survived. Same one had a puppy take it for a run around the living room bashing it into our rock fireplace. few keys popped off, but snapped them back in place and it's still working.
have to agree on this one. my school got a K400 plus for every classroom during the pandemic and saw how great they worked so I decided to buy one for myself, they're really good
I have a special place in my heart for the riiboard. It was one of my first keyboards when I first got into PC gaming. God no, I didn’t use it to game I was very much still a controller player. But it was what I used to navigate my Steam Machine and my RPi mostly in desktop mode. It’s by no means great but surprisingly useful in niche cases. Just get the backlit variant like you have here though. It’s worth the 10 extra bucks. Edit: forgot to mention, iirc the lock shortcut locks the trackpad iirc. Haven’t used mine since like 2018 lol.
the protoarc keyboard has provisions for the end of the keyboard. the black part on each end rotates to extend a foot to help level it. I have a few similar keyboards and those feet make all the difference. edit... HAHAHA nm... you found it. I have one without the trackpad from iClever that does both bluetooth and wired that has the same build engineering.
Why they made that a moving mechanism instead of just molding the proper height into the shell is still beyond me :-D Also, which keyboard do you have that supports wired?
@@CraftComputing I had come here to say the same thing about the folding feet as @Elemental-IT .... also before seeing the rest of the video. I picked up what I assume is the same iClever keyboard (Model: IC-BK05)with no trackpad several years ago. And it does have wired connectivity through the microUSB charging port.
@@CraftComputing Also, I need to follow up now that I have seen the rest of your review on the keyboard. I like the iClever keyboard better because it has a full size number row and a half height Function row with dedicated half height esc and del keys. The function keys do have the typical dual duty with media functions. Another nitpicky thing that I like better is that it also has the arrow keys in an inverted-T layout with all half sized keys. I still prefer that layout. Sometimes, it would be nice to have the touchpad though.
I got an Arteck HD197 wireless keyboard earlier this year ($22 when I bought it, $27 today). I actually quite like it. The keys are 100% sized with a consistent "good enough" feel across all of them, 3 device connectivity (2.4GHz dongle + 2 BT channels), and the battery lasts forever. The otherwise cheap construction is fixed by having a thin stainless steel top plate that makes it very rigid. It's quite good for a "use on the couch" keyboard -- not perfect, but any complaints I have are minor considering it costs less than a pizza delivery but lasts a lot longer than pizza does. I got the Arteck to replace a Logi K400. I couldn't stand the K400 because I just couldn't get used to the the condensed key sizes.
I actually got that single-handed trackball a few years back for two uses. Initially, I got it to interact with my phone while it was docked in my car so that I didn't need to reach for my dash to answer a call or skip a song, which could have led to a ticket should a cop see. The nuance of the hands free bills are directly for dashboards and phones, but this device at hip level would be too much a hassle for a cop to argue in court. I ended up using it more when my daughter was born. During her "larvae" period, I could hold her in my arm, using one hand to hold a bottle while the other hand held this, allowing me to queue up UA-cam videos without being able to reach for the mouse. I agree it isn't a prefect device, but it has value in certain situations.
I got a couple of those Rii keyboards (they have another model too) Yeah not daily use keyboards. I got it for a CNC machine so its small and designed to be on a floating panel. Also i think the USB is charging power only. You always need to use the dongle to actually use it. Though i might be wrong.
I logged in to comment about the 2nd kb in the vid. I had one of these back in 2013 or 2014 and I daily drove it. It was literally the same, but had an optical trackball, which was extremely accurate, but you needed to get used to the *extreme* acceleration on it. If you spun it like a fidget, it would fly from an end of the monitor to the right and it would still spin uncontrollably. That's how fine the movement was on the one I had. And the one I had also had a rubber protection on top of it. It didn't really attach, it was just sitting on top, but it protected the kb from getting any gunk or liquids inside the keyboard. And the trackball had a rotating lock mechanism (similar to a 90s roller ball mouse) to drop the trackball and clear the sensor of any dust or hair that would impact the sensor (which happened pretty often TBF, at least once every week or two). The controller-like handle mode was what I used most, because my main purpose back then was media consumption and it was doing a fantastic job back then. My only problem with it was that the optical trackball sensor died after 4 months (inside the warranty period). I really loved that small thing and I wanted the same model, but couldn't find it anymore, so I got a refund and purchased a cheaper quality larger keyboard with a touchpad. The later served me well for years, but had its (horrible) quirks which required me to sometimes grab another keyboard temporarily, or use a mouse for text selection, eventually landing me to another daily driver (smaller) from Rapoo, the e2710. Also suffers from the same key quirks (like shift + left arrow being equal to Function + shift + left arrow, which takes you to Shift + Home instead, which is definitely not the same thing as just shift + left). Takes a bit of muscle memory training. The touchpad keyboards absolutely have a longer battery life than the optical sensor trackball one. I barely change batteries every 3 to 6 months, while the trackball one I changed the alkaline at least 3x, before I got myself rechargeable batteries (and alkalines last way longer, kinda tells you how much that sensor was using up, even if it was going to idle if you didn't move it to save power and would take a second of movement for it to come back alive). Funny story about saving space. I have 2 (full-sized) keyboards on my (non-daily driver) desk. And I can't just unplug the keyboards and plug them back at all times. One is always connected, the other is always disconnected (it's a debug kb for other devices). And I can't be bothered to move it around in a tote or drawer. So what did I do? My monitor is mounted on a desk arm, so I have a lot of "dead space" towards the end of my desk. So I gotten myself a "monitor riser" (with a built-in USB hub, but it can be just a metal, plastic or wood shelf). When my work is done with the PC, I slide the keyboard underneath the monitor riser. The other keyboard I keep on top. Whenever I need to use one or the other, I just slide back and forth, or if I need to use both (my monitor has a KVM, but only 2 ports, which is why I need a separate keyboard), I just keep the bottom (main) kb in front of me and I stretch my hands a bit to the top one (although my hands are mostly in the air, for the small time I need to troubleshoot). And when I'm done with both keyboards, I put them on / under the stand and I have the front of my desk open to slide my laptop arm (kinda like a monitor arm) on my desk. If I didn't have the laptop arm, I'd just put the laptop on the desk itself.
As I saw the EM01 I thought it was the logitech MX Ergo that I have. Right down to the tilting a losable USB dongle. I wonder if it is made under license? Or an off brand logitech product?
Got a Logitech K400r that's been pulling the same role on my desk as you're looking for. I think it is a bit bigger than perhaps but better built, usable. Runs on batteries and the trackpad is a little... quirky until you tinker in Windows Settings.
I've tried a number of ten-keyless, combo keyboards, and trackballs, but I always go back to normal, full-sized keyboards. I don't even try alternatives any more. At every PC that I use with any frequency, I use a Corsair or Creative wired mechanical keyboard and a Logitech G502 mouse.
I have 2 of these, the Rii, and ProtoArc folding keyboards. I use the Rii with my network cabinet where my mini PCs are hooked up to a KVM. I just tuck it into the door with my portable display when not in use. I have the ProtoArc folding keyboard with the 10 keys instead of trackpad it also has the corner bumps for stability/drop stop, and a wireless mouse with a shared USB 2.4Ghz dongle with the keyboard. So it has triple bluetooth, and 2.4ghz I keep them in the case they came with in my backpack when i travel for work and use them with my steamdeck and dock for gaming at the hotel and occasionally at a table or counter in the airport, or on my Fire Max Tablet or iPhone. I also have a couple of the Rii keyboard/gamepads that i use with my TVs or Firesticks.
For Wireless keyboards I like the new 8bitdo retro keyboard, I am sure there is a business version of it somewhere as the company tends to borrow the hardware and mod it accordingly, the biggest bonus to the 8bitdo is it is a mechanical keyboard with swappable switches so you can use whatever keys you like. its great for portability as the dongle integrates into the body of the board, the only downside is it is a keyboard only so you need a mouse as well. For a daily driver it works very well. I am still lsearching.
I feel like you'd be happy with an ergo keyboard that includes a pointing device like a trackball, either unified or split. Unified ones usually have some kind of Alice-style layout with a center ball (ironically this was popular in the '90s, and maybe '80s, when mechanical balls were the only option, you can still buy new old stock of replacement modules for these boards), splits usually put the trackball on a thumb cluster; then of course there's the custom side of things, I've see projects put the ball adjacent to the inner index column, I've seen projects use the circular trackpads from Cirque (the same modules used in the Steam Controller but with a different overlay, and within a range of sizes), etc. But this solution pretty much solves all of your goals, good feel, good quality, reduced footprint, etc. Also, assuming the Elecom presentation wand trackball had a tighter fit on the ball, how does a mini-ball feel in comparison to the typical or larger balls? I've been considering a couple projects that utilize them, though my major hurdle has been sourcing proper trackballs for this application, phenolic resin balls of that size just aren't common and I can't find a manufacturer that'll sell individual uniques to end consumers. But I have yet to find any amount of feedback from anyone if they find minis any more difficult or less accurate to use, outside of complaints like how snug the ball is. I've been considering abandoning these ideas for projects and just moving on to those Cirque pads, given that Valve has proven viability of software-side functionality and feature sets (the Steam Controller with Valve's controller configurator for it is a very powerful combination in terms of feature set and functionality), though that same viability doesn't quite exist yet in more generalized peripheral firmware, though it'd be cheaper at the end of the day considering these things have always been under $10 per module with the overlay included; that kind of pricing is the cheaper end of the spectrum for a replacement trackball itself of a standard size, then sensor costs on top of that, and bearings and housing, etc., I'd imagine the miniballs, assuming you can find a source of them, are a decent factor more expensive.
That folding keyboard is Bluetooth because the factory in China that makes them for 10 different brands only offers that. I used to have one until it was stolen out of my car and I loved it but mine had no track pad. Mine did not come with edge bumpers so that is new.
Microsoft foldable universal keyboard, perfect for when i travel light. Logitech T630 mouse, horrible full time but very pocketable and usable on the road K800 keyboard is still my all time favourite, i'm glad i bought 3 of them
Give a try to Lenovo Trackpoint Keyboard 1 (KM-1255, the wired one) it solved the issue with space for me. The wireless one does have the same issue with connectivity only BT. Wired one has the only downside- a slight flex that is easily solved with rubber feet.
I use the same for my "test bench". Bought it a few years ago as my daily driver until I switched to a mechanical keyboard. I really like the Lenovo laptop keyboards and the trackpoint is the most space saving and still very usable mouse input device.
I miss the level of innovation that happened with peripherals in the late 90s early 2000s.. searching for anything interesting or that fills a niche today is.. well it's miserable at best, it's amazing how many things that I knew existed back in the day, like a large variety of air mice that just don't anymore or at least not easily findable.
You can try the rollermouse, which is stupidly expensive with ok quality, but was a life saver when I was suffering from back/arm pain. And it's very compact!
The space saving combo i have come to love has been the lenovo wired trackpoint keyboard, sub $50, with the wireless one coming in at like $90 for some reason, but supports pairing multiple devices at the same time with a dongle+bluetooth, and a quick switch between devices and keyboard commands(desktop/mobile) Now TrackPoint isnt for everyone, and i do have a logitech MX Ergo thumb-ball mouse but i find that most of the time it saves me time to not have to take my hands off the keyboard. I just wish there was a full sized version with number pad and standard sized Fn row, arrow, and insert-pagedown keys If i were making a wish list it would be slim mechanical with at least white backlighting like my old Tesoro Gram XS(super bright rainbow RGB slim mechanical) i'd pay like $250 for that to be built by a tier 1 manufacturer like Lenovo or Dell, and then to have the trackpoint
The problem that i have with the wireless keyboard is that the FN lock seems to be tied to software and not on the keyboard, so the print screen button actually euqates to pressing win+shift+s, F12 is some hotkey to switch apps, and it seems that without the software installed, holding FN and pressing any of these buttons does nothing. Rather annoying when you're in a livingroom playing on controller and you dont want to bring up the Xbox Game Bar to take a screen shot because you want to share it in steam, or just want to paste it into a chat window intead of needing to drill down into the folder the game bar captures are stored.
Just starting the video but I've been interested in "couch controlling" a pc. I have a small keyboard/trackpad combo but a combination software package and smaller controller might be something I need to look into.
How did you give 6/10 for the first one? As you described it it is barely usable, and that's only of you need to use it only few minutes at a time! What qualities should a keyboard have to get 2/10 then?
For the foldable keyboard: you need to unfold those 2 plastiic thingys at the bottom - they are the feet :) edit: I wrote the comment too soon, you figured that out later :D
Jeff, I also have an obnoxious number of keyboards and mice that I've purchased and played with (and I don't have a youtube channel). I have appreciated this review but, there is something more important that I need to know and, while i have watched a lot of your content, I don't know if you've ever covered it. What is your philosophy on pouring beer from a bottle or can into a glass? Do you tilt the glass or pour straight in while keeping the head from overflowing?
The EM-01 looks like they're channeling a Logitech MX-Ergo. I have been happy with my MX-Ergo for many years. Fantastic mouse. But the thumb ball is definitely a choice some won't like
The RII lock key locks the function keys either as f keys of their hotkey functions. the RII is a very inaccurate keyboard, but useful as a portable temporary board, it also has Bluetooth as well as 2.4ghz and wired so it makes it useful to switch between the 3 interface types.
The Protoarc Folding Keyboard's exterior reminds me of the Plugable Full Size keyboard I've been using forever. Right down to the 'Is that a kickstand' ... with the difference being the Pluggable is also usable as a manual micro-usb connection if you do a little dance on the FN key to toggle between bluetooth and wired modes. :) I have used it to boop one of my NUCs into shape after a bios hang. And didn't have another keyboard to use without dismantling the other rigs with it's wired keyboard. I've since oved to keeping a generic-as-possible oem keyboard and generic optical mouse tucked into the top of the rack for just such an emergency.
I've tried finger trackballs for a while, but the thumb trackballs doesn't strain my hand nearly as much. I have the Logitech Ergo MX trackball, which the EM01 is really similar to. I have the same complaint about the lack of dongle storage on the Ergo MX and have no clue where it is now. The button clicks seem to be a bit more consistent on the MX, but I would hope so given the price difference.
between 2 people we've gone through 5 (2 were warranty replacements) MX ergo "mice" since they've come out in our household (mainly due to the button switches failing. (don't ask how many m570 we went through...) I keep coming back to it because of the superior build quality of the rest of the device. I wish they'd get rid of the soft touch rubber coating -it gets terribly gross after years of use. and I've already ended up tearing down and replacing the micro switches in the one i'm using cause the omron switches they have used for the past 10 years are lucky to last a year or 2.
@@_Turbocat777 I haven't had the flaky or double-click issue with my Ergo MX since having it since release, but I've experience the issue with two other MX mice (one travel and one normal). I guess I've been lucky with mine (knocks on wood).
@@questionlp grats. just in case, If you ever need to I had good luck with the Kailh GM 2.0 switches I put in the first ergo and I'm still using the same one since.
I have an old 'tri-folding' keyboard EXACTLY like that protoarc folding one down to the kickstand and hinge design but without the trackpad from a company called iClever which does have HID on the usb. You just use a function key combo to switch from USB input mode to bluetooth input mode. Mine is old enough that it was microusb but looks like they still make them and now use usb-c. However their version which does have a trackpad doesn't appear to have a usb mode it looks to be bluetooth only :(
That rubberized coating? Yeah, it sucks, and it gums up without a human ever touching it. I have pulled more than one item out of new packaging years later and had it stick to my fingers. And they still use it!
The Logitech K830 if you can find one is a great one, but not cheap. Bluetooth and USB reciever. Not too big. Solid but no 10-key. Rechargeable. Backlit keyboard.
I know, what I use doesn't really fit into this video, but I use a Wooting HE60, a 60% gaming keyboard and a Logitech Superlight Pro X mouse...typical high-end gaming peripherals. :D You could change that HE60 to a wireless keyboard, like the Keychron K3 which is a very light (
as for the Rii Keyboard/Trackpad Combo the funny thing is I literally just bought one and then a week later saw this video. I wanted a crash keyboard that I could leave in the car and just throw in a bag that could do Bluetooth to one of my devices and also RF and act like a keyboard mouse and nothing else. I already proved itself quite handy. Pair that with the GPD pocket three which supports HDMI input and keyboard out I have a mobile crash rig. The only downside is it disables the keyboard from the internal system require new use the touchscreen and I have used it many times this week and it's nice but I still wanted a dedicated keyboard mouse that I could leave attached to the system I'm working on without locking my keyboard out. The other benefit is I also have a portable monitor so I have a lot of different options where I can use a combination of the GPD p3 and the keyboard or the keyboard in the monitor or just the GPD p3.
Regarding the bluetooth only Protoarc keyboard. I used to do a little work-around with my Apple Magic keyboard, when I had to switch between my personal MacBook and a work supplied laptop. Well, "had to" in the sense I primarily used my MacBook and sometimes needed to also use my work-laptop at my desk (I'm a teacher, so put this one under #firstworldproblems). I hated, that I had to wait for Windows to pair with the keyboard, when I used it in clamshell mode and vice versa, when I had to unpair from the Windows PC and then re-connect with the MacBook - for what amounts to a simple switch and something I sometimes had to do in a pinch. My work-around? I used a third party bluetooth-dongle and paired the keyboard with that. I then just had to move the dongle, power cycle the keyboard and wait a few seconds. I was first much later that I realized, that I could do the very same thing with my desktops (MacBook in clamshell-mode, a Lenovo Tiny, running Ubuntu, and my workstation) instead of moving a USB-cable around. Had three USB-extenders on the desktop acting like a poor mans KVM. Benefits: - Use the same keyboard, on multiple PCs - No physical wear on the keyboard itself (USB-cable, of course). - Fast switching - If the dongle dies (bought cheap ones, so it happened more than once), it can easily be replaced. - You now possibly have added bluetooth to a computer, that wasn't born with it. - No adaption, when it comes to muscle memory. I'm a fairly fast typist, but that's why I mention it. It's just nice, not needing to re-adjust all the time. Drawbacks: - Sometimes, you just need two keyboards. I do have more than one keyboard, but the above work-around, does not solve a "need multiple keyboards"-problem. - Compatibility / confusion, when I sometimes forgot to move the dongle and thought I needed to re-pair devices. I then realized, I was pairing the keyboard to the in-device bluetooth-radio. Not critical, just annoying. - If you are the type, that's easily confused, I won't recommend using a Mac-keyboard (or "Mac layout", on a Windows-PC and then switch between macOS and Windows. I'm used to it, now. But I can see, that for some it's not an ideal situation and I get that.
@@CraftComputing I am pretty sure we are about the same age. It is either that or put it into an excel spreadsheet and do math there. I finally ordered a new server case so I will be putting your proxmox 8.0 videos to work shortly.
the Protoarc EM01 looks an awful lot like the new logitech trackball that's dual mode Bluetooth/dongle which I have and i like a lot. I had the previous model where for many years I was thinking there's gotta be a way to make this thing Bluetooth, which I also like although it's a slightly different from factor. And much like the Logitech one one of them can store the dongle and the newer one can't. My solution was to buy a case and always put the dongle in the case. But on the upside both mode support Bluetooth and it's a unifying dongle which means it can be replaced.
We've purchased RII products before, they are VERY low quality. I personally use a Logitech K400 and a "Microsoft All-in-One Media Keyboard" at home that I use for my home theater PC and my homelab. Oddly enough i prefer the Microsoft one.
Protoarc EM01 seems like a worse version of a Logitech MX Ergo or M575. The inability to reassign the forward and back buttons under mac OS is a deal breaker for me with a lot of these less expensive trackballs. The Logitech stuff is pricier, but it just works. (Edit, and the M575 is only about $4 more than the Protoarc at the moment, so...)
I have a wireless mouse which supports one wifi dongle and two Bluetooth connections. I can switch between different PCs with one or two presses of a button. Edit: You have quite thick fingers compared to an average white collar worker.
i am currently typing this on one of those cheap logitech keyboard/trackpads i would love a premium version of this form factor logitech did make a nicer one but it seems to be dead and unavailable now a days
I'm watching this using a Logitech K830 Illuminated keyboard. I've tried allot of different ones and keep coming back to this one. Only problem is they stopped making them . Boooo, So I bought 3 on runout special. I got lucky.
I never want anything, other than Logitech MX Keys mini or master again. Both mouse and keyboard are the best. Only downsite I had with it is that the usb c input only is for charging while I would like it to also use them through usb cable, especially the keyboard. Also the vertical mouse of Logitech MX should also be really good, but haven't test that yet and also it needs a day or 2 to getting used to from what I have heard. That you dont like the twist in you arm has more to do with how much you have to use your hand muscles when using the trackbal. Thats why I think the vertical mouse will be a different story, although still up to the user to like or dislike offcourse
That Proto track ball is essentially a logitech M570 style clone. I have been exclusively using this kind of track ball since the 1990s. We’re talking Mac clone days and earlier. Apple Quadro. ADP. Power PC stuff. I don’t think I have touched a mouse since I owned a Bondi blue iMac. Not even for gaming. Then I moved to Windows. For the last 10 or 12 years I have gone straight desktop replacements for work and play. Haven’t owned a mouse in that entire time. Only use the trackpad if I have to go into the bios. I have zero regrets.
the comment about the media buttons on the handheld is stupid. its like complaining about the netflix button placement on your tv remote. how often do you use that to be an issue? and if you're using it as a powerpoint remote, you're not using the trackball or clicks. but regarding its ball rattle, a bearing replacement with something a bit larger would probably fix that might
18:50 That transition to Realization was 😂🤣
Logitech K400 has been my goto for a decade. I just used it yesterday for setting up a Raspberry Pi and used it a week ago for doing a clean install on a Dell PC I got from an estate sale for $1. The built-in trackpad works well, my only nitpick is I hate the scrolling it does if you try to use the side of the pad. At my last SysAdmin job I used one of those cheap Bluetooth remote control sized keyboard trackpad combos for all of the thin clients I had to maintain on a factory floor.
I Second this, the K series keyboards are really good, there is a newer version of it called the K400 Plus as well, it works very well for a membrane keyboard and is great for a mobile/portable device.
Still love the Logitech K400 series. I have about 8 of them for various setups and workspaces around the house. This includes a KVM for my customer workbench for computers, a KVM for my server rack, HTPC, Arcade Cabinet, etc.
The K400r, which is most of the versions I have used 2xAA, can operate with 1, the Unify receiver is nice, cheap to replace, works on KVMs. Keys are ok, they're dome keys, but the added bonus of a decent multi-touch track pad is awesome! There are a ok number FN keys, but again, nothing works as great as a real 103-key keyboard and mouse combo. I enjoy that it has all the right 83-key style and layout.
I forgot to add, while I don't recommend it for everyone in this situation, it's great for datacenters that have shielding from the outside world or non-sensitive servers. Most of the servers I work on only have 2 USB ports and someone keeps stealing the hub we use on our crash cart. When you need a keyboard, mouse, USB drive plugged in, this is a must, just don't forget to remove the adapter before you close up.
I've used K400/plus models for years and when you factor in the common under $20 sale prices I've never found an option that comes close. I've even spilt beverages on one and it survived. Same one had a puppy take it for a run around the living room bashing it into our rock fireplace. few keys popped off, but snapped them back in place and it's still working.
For a small keyboard, try the Logitech K400. Mine is 6 years old, and works great.
This OG K400 is the GOAT of wireless combo keyboard/trackpad
Agreed. My k400 has been a champ
I have a K400 plus and it has been flawless since I got it back in the day.
I'm actually astonished Jeff didn't try this one out already. Been using a couple of these for years now.
have to agree on this one. my school got a K400 plus for every classroom during the pandemic and saw how great they worked so I decided to buy one for myself, they're really good
I might grab that folding keyboard for my steam deck - it seems like a perfect use case!
Likewise.
I love the realization of the Kickstart, It is my favorite moment of the video
I have a special place in my heart for the riiboard. It was one of my first keyboards when I first got into PC gaming. God no, I didn’t use it to game I was very much still a controller player. But it was what I used to navigate my Steam Machine and my RPi mostly in desktop mode. It’s by no means great but surprisingly useful in niche cases. Just get the backlit variant like you have here though. It’s worth the 10 extra bucks.
Edit: forgot to mention, iirc the lock shortcut locks the trackpad iirc. Haven’t used mine since like 2018 lol.
My favorite thing about this whole video was the t-shirt "All about that space. No Tribbles".
the protoarc keyboard has provisions for the end of the keyboard. the black part on each end rotates to extend a foot to help level it. I have a few similar keyboards and those feet make all the difference.
edit... HAHAHA nm... you found it.
I have one without the trackpad from iClever that does both bluetooth and wired that has the same build engineering.
Why they made that a moving mechanism instead of just molding the proper height into the shell is still beyond me :-D
Also, which keyboard do you have that supports wired?
@@CraftComputing I had come here to say the same thing about the folding feet as @Elemental-IT .... also before seeing the rest of the video. I picked up what I assume is the same iClever keyboard (Model: IC-BK05)with no trackpad several years ago. And it does have wired connectivity through the microUSB charging port.
@@CraftComputing Also, I need to follow up now that I have seen the rest of your review on the keyboard. I like the iClever keyboard better because it has a full size number row and a half height Function row with dedicated half height esc and del keys. The function keys do have the typical dual duty with media functions. Another nitpicky thing that I like better is that it also has the arrow keys in an inverted-T layout with all half sized keys. I still prefer that layout. Sometimes, it would be nice to have the touchpad though.
I got an Arteck HD197 wireless keyboard earlier this year ($22 when I bought it, $27 today). I actually quite like it. The keys are 100% sized with a consistent "good enough" feel across all of them, 3 device connectivity (2.4GHz dongle + 2 BT channels), and the battery lasts forever. The otherwise cheap construction is fixed by having a thin stainless steel top plate that makes it very rigid.
It's quite good for a "use on the couch" keyboard -- not perfect, but any complaints I have are minor considering it costs less than a pizza delivery but lasts a lot longer than pizza does.
I got the Arteck to replace a Logi K400. I couldn't stand the K400 because I just couldn't get used to the the condensed key sizes.
I actually got that single-handed trackball a few years back for two uses. Initially, I got it to interact with my phone while it was docked in my car so that I didn't need to reach for my dash to answer a call or skip a song, which could have led to a ticket should a cop see. The nuance of the hands free bills are directly for dashboards and phones, but this device at hip level would be too much a hassle for a cop to argue in court.
I ended up using it more when my daughter was born. During her "larvae" period, I could hold her in my arm, using one hand to hold a bottle while the other hand held this, allowing me to queue up UA-cam videos without being able to reach for the mouse. I agree it isn't a prefect device, but it has value in certain situations.
I got a couple of those Rii keyboards (they have another model too) Yeah not daily use keyboards. I got it for a CNC machine so its small and designed to be on a floating panel. Also i think the USB is charging power only. You always need to use the dongle to actually use it. Though i might be wrong.
I logged in to comment about the 2nd kb in the vid. I had one of these back in 2013 or 2014 and I daily drove it. It was literally the same, but had an optical trackball, which was extremely accurate, but you needed to get used to the *extreme* acceleration on it. If you spun it like a fidget, it would fly from an end of the monitor to the right and it would still spin uncontrollably. That's how fine the movement was on the one I had. And the one I had also had a rubber protection on top of it. It didn't really attach, it was just sitting on top, but it protected the kb from getting any gunk or liquids inside the keyboard. And the trackball had a rotating lock mechanism (similar to a 90s roller ball mouse) to drop the trackball and clear the sensor of any dust or hair that would impact the sensor (which happened pretty often TBF, at least once every week or two).
The controller-like handle mode was what I used most, because my main purpose back then was media consumption and it was doing a fantastic job back then. My only problem with it was that the optical trackball sensor died after 4 months (inside the warranty period). I really loved that small thing and I wanted the same model, but couldn't find it anymore, so I got a refund and purchased a cheaper quality larger keyboard with a touchpad. The later served me well for years, but had its (horrible) quirks which required me to sometimes grab another keyboard temporarily, or use a mouse for text selection, eventually landing me to another daily driver (smaller) from Rapoo, the e2710. Also suffers from the same key quirks (like shift + left arrow being equal to Function + shift + left arrow, which takes you to Shift + Home instead, which is definitely not the same thing as just shift + left).
Takes a bit of muscle memory training. The touchpad keyboards absolutely have a longer battery life than the optical sensor trackball one. I barely change batteries every 3 to 6 months, while the trackball one I changed the alkaline at least 3x, before I got myself rechargeable batteries (and alkalines last way longer, kinda tells you how much that sensor was using up, even if it was going to idle if you didn't move it to save power and would take a second of movement for it to come back alive).
Funny story about saving space. I have 2 (full-sized) keyboards on my (non-daily driver) desk. And I can't just unplug the keyboards and plug them back at all times. One is always connected, the other is always disconnected (it's a debug kb for other devices). And I can't be bothered to move it around in a tote or drawer. So what did I do? My monitor is mounted on a desk arm, so I have a lot of "dead space" towards the end of my desk. So I gotten myself a "monitor riser" (with a built-in USB hub, but it can be just a metal, plastic or wood shelf). When my work is done with the PC, I slide the keyboard underneath the monitor riser. The other keyboard I keep on top. Whenever I need to use one or the other, I just slide back and forth, or if I need to use both (my monitor has a KVM, but only 2 ports, which is why I need a separate keyboard), I just keep the bottom (main) kb in front of me and I stretch my hands a bit to the top one (although my hands are mostly in the air, for the small time I need to troubleshoot).
And when I'm done with both keyboards, I put them on / under the stand and I have the front of my desk open to slide my laptop arm (kinda like a monitor arm) on my desk. If I didn't have the laptop arm, I'd just put the laptop on the desk itself.
As I saw the EM01 I thought it was the logitech MX Ergo that I have. Right down to the tilting a losable USB dongle. I wonder if it is made under license? Or an off brand logitech product?
love elecom HUGE trackball... watched this as soon as i seen you had the realcon... been watching that for a HTPC mouse, thanks for posting
When in doubt, Logitech K400. I have 3.
k400 "collector" gang here we are
For the Protoarc folding keyboard, the black inserts on each edge are feet. They flip down. At least on my keyboard.
Would you consider the kensington expert mouse (its a trackball, 4 buttons with a scroll ring).
Got a Logitech K400r that's been pulling the same role on my desk as you're looking for. I think it is a bit bigger than perhaps but better built, usable. Runs on batteries and the trackpad is a little... quirky until you tinker in Windows Settings.
I've tried a number of ten-keyless, combo keyboards, and trackballs, but I always go back to normal, full-sized keyboards. I don't even try alternatives any more. At every PC that I use with any frequency, I use a Corsair or Creative wired mechanical keyboard and a Logitech G502 mouse.
I have 2 of these, the Rii, and ProtoArc folding keyboards. I use the Rii with my network cabinet where my mini PCs are hooked up to a KVM. I just tuck it into the door with my portable display when not in use.
I have the ProtoArc folding keyboard with the 10 keys instead of trackpad it also has the corner bumps for stability/drop stop, and a wireless mouse with a shared USB 2.4Ghz dongle with the keyboard. So it has triple bluetooth, and 2.4ghz I keep them in the case they came with in my backpack when i travel for work and use them with my steamdeck and dock for gaming at the hotel and occasionally at a table or counter in the airport, or on my Fire Max Tablet or iPhone.
I also have a couple of the Rii keyboard/gamepads that i use with my TVs or Firesticks.
For Wireless keyboards I like the new 8bitdo retro keyboard, I am sure there is a business version of it somewhere as the company tends to borrow the hardware and mod it accordingly, the biggest bonus to the 8bitdo is it is a mechanical keyboard with swappable switches so you can use whatever keys you like. its great for portability as the dongle integrates into the body of the board, the only downside is it is a keyboard only so you need a mouse as well. For a daily driver it works very well. I am still lsearching.
I feel like you'd be happy with an ergo keyboard that includes a pointing device like a trackball, either unified or split. Unified ones usually have some kind of Alice-style layout with a center ball (ironically this was popular in the '90s, and maybe '80s, when mechanical balls were the only option, you can still buy new old stock of replacement modules for these boards), splits usually put the trackball on a thumb cluster; then of course there's the custom side of things, I've see projects put the ball adjacent to the inner index column, I've seen projects use the circular trackpads from Cirque (the same modules used in the Steam Controller but with a different overlay, and within a range of sizes), etc. But this solution pretty much solves all of your goals, good feel, good quality, reduced footprint, etc.
Also, assuming the Elecom presentation wand trackball had a tighter fit on the ball, how does a mini-ball feel in comparison to the typical or larger balls? I've been considering a couple projects that utilize them, though my major hurdle has been sourcing proper trackballs for this application, phenolic resin balls of that size just aren't common and I can't find a manufacturer that'll sell individual uniques to end consumers. But I have yet to find any amount of feedback from anyone if they find minis any more difficult or less accurate to use, outside of complaints like how snug the ball is. I've been considering abandoning these ideas for projects and just moving on to those Cirque pads, given that Valve has proven viability of software-side functionality and feature sets (the Steam Controller with Valve's controller configurator for it is a very powerful combination in terms of feature set and functionality), though that same viability doesn't quite exist yet in more generalized peripheral firmware, though it'd be cheaper at the end of the day considering these things have always been under $10 per module with the overlay included; that kind of pricing is the cheaper end of the spectrum for a replacement trackball itself of a standard size, then sensor costs on top of that, and bearings and housing, etc., I'd imagine the miniballs, assuming you can find a source of them, are a decent factor more expensive.
That folding keyboard is Bluetooth because the factory in China that makes them for 10 different brands only offers that. I used to have one until it was stolen out of my car and I loved it but mine had no track pad. Mine did not come with edge bumpers so that is new.
Microsoft foldable universal keyboard, perfect for when i travel light.
Logitech T630 mouse, horrible full time but very pocketable and usable on the road
K800 keyboard is still my all time favourite, i'm glad i bought 3 of them
Give a try to Lenovo Trackpoint Keyboard 1 (KM-1255, the wired one) it solved the issue with space for me. The wireless one does have the same issue with connectivity only BT. Wired one has the only downside- a slight flex that is easily solved with rubber feet.
I use the same for my "test bench". Bought it a few years ago as my daily driver until I switched to a mechanical keyboard. I really like the Lenovo laptop keyboards and the trackpoint is the most space saving and still very usable mouse input device.
Fun fact, trackballs are still the preferred style of mouse for studio usage and musicians.
I've been using Trackballs as my main pointer for 15+ years.
Is there an option to embed a trackball into your desk? There are "panel mount" trackballs on the market, but they don't seem very comfortable.
I miss the level of innovation that happened with peripherals in the late 90s early 2000s.. searching for anything interesting or that fills a niche today is.. well it's miserable at best, it's amazing how many things that I knew existed back in the day, like a large variety of air mice that just don't anymore or at least not easily findable.
You can try the rollermouse, which is stupidly expensive with ok quality, but was a life saver when I was suffering from back/arm pain.
And it's very compact!
...reason being you don't have to move your hand to the right to access your mouse/trackball....
The space saving combo i have come to love has been the lenovo wired trackpoint keyboard, sub $50, with the wireless one coming in at like $90 for some reason, but supports pairing multiple devices at the same time with a dongle+bluetooth, and a quick switch between devices and keyboard commands(desktop/mobile)
Now TrackPoint isnt for everyone, and i do have a logitech MX Ergo thumb-ball mouse but i find that most of the time it saves me time to not have to take my hands off the keyboard.
I just wish there was a full sized version with number pad and standard sized Fn row, arrow, and insert-pagedown keys
If i were making a wish list it would be slim mechanical with at least white backlighting like my old Tesoro Gram XS(super bright rainbow RGB slim mechanical) i'd pay like $250 for that to be built by a tier 1 manufacturer like Lenovo or Dell, and then to have the trackpoint
The problem that i have with the wireless keyboard is that the FN lock seems to be tied to software and not on the keyboard, so the print screen button actually euqates to pressing win+shift+s, F12 is some hotkey to switch apps, and it seems that without the software installed, holding FN and pressing any of these buttons does nothing.
Rather annoying when you're in a livingroom playing on controller and you dont want to bring up the Xbox Game Bar to take a screen shot because you want to share it in steam, or just want to paste it into a chat window intead of needing to drill down into the folder the game bar captures are stored.
Zenrich has some very interesting ones with flip out trackpads
Just starting the video but I've been interested in "couch controlling" a pc. I have a small keyboard/trackpad combo but a combination software package and smaller controller might be something I need to look into.
How did you give 6/10 for the first one? As you described it it is barely usable, and that's only of you need to use it only few minutes at a time! What qualities should a keyboard have to get 2/10 then?
For the foldable keyboard: you need to unfold those 2 plastiic thingys at the bottom - they are the feet :)
edit: I wrote the comment too soon, you figured that out later :D
Jeff, I also have an obnoxious number of keyboards and mice that I've purchased and played with (and I don't have a youtube channel). I have appreciated this review but, there is something more important that I need to know and, while i have watched a lot of your content, I don't know if you've ever covered it. What is your philosophy on pouring beer from a bottle or can into a glass? Do you tilt the glass or pour straight in while keeping the head from overflowing?
The EM-01 looks like they're channeling a Logitech MX-Ergo. I have been happy with my MX-Ergo for many years. Fantastic mouse. But the thumb ball is definitely a choice some won't like
It's effectively an MX ergo minus the clicky buttons, thats pretty much the only significant difference i can see. It's a very good mouse.
its basically an mx ergo but with clicky switches, it's a very nice mouse.
The RII lock key locks the function keys either as f keys of their hotkey functions. the RII is a very inaccurate keyboard, but useful as a portable temporary board, it also has Bluetooth as well as 2.4ghz and wired so it makes it useful to switch between the 3 interface types.
Perfect shirt for the video!!!
I used to use a logitech keyboard mouse pad combo. It was pretty useful.
I use the Rii for my RasPi. It is OKish if you only need it rarely.
The Protoarc Folding Keyboard's exterior reminds me of the Plugable Full Size keyboard I've been using forever. Right down to the 'Is that a kickstand' ... with the difference being the Pluggable is also usable as a manual micro-usb connection if you do a little dance on the FN key to toggle between bluetooth and wired modes. :) I have used it to boop one of my NUCs into shape after a bios hang. And didn't have another keyboard to use without dismantling the other rigs with it's wired keyboard. I've since oved to keeping a generic-as-possible oem keyboard and generic optical mouse tucked into the top of the rack for just such an emergency.
I've tried finger trackballs for a while, but the thumb trackballs doesn't strain my hand nearly as much. I have the Logitech Ergo MX trackball, which the EM01 is really similar to. I have the same complaint about the lack of dongle storage on the Ergo MX and have no clue where it is now. The button clicks seem to be a bit more consistent on the MX, but I would hope so given the price difference.
between 2 people we've gone through 5 (2 were warranty replacements) MX ergo "mice" since they've come out in our household (mainly due to the button switches failing. (don't ask how many m570 we went through...)
I keep coming back to it because of the superior build quality of the rest of the device.
I wish they'd get rid of the soft touch rubber coating -it gets terribly gross after years of use.
and I've already ended up tearing down and replacing the micro switches in the one i'm using cause the omron switches they have used for the past 10 years are lucky to last a year or 2.
@@_Turbocat777 I haven't had the flaky or double-click issue with my Ergo MX since having it since release, but I've experience the issue with two other MX mice (one travel and one normal). I guess I've been lucky with mine (knocks on wood).
@@questionlp grats. just in case, If you ever need to I had good luck with the Kailh GM 2.0 switches I put in the first ergo and I'm still using the same one since.
As always… we’ll done Jeff!
I have an old 'tri-folding' keyboard EXACTLY like that protoarc folding one down to the kickstand and hinge design but without the trackpad from a company called iClever which does have HID on the usb. You just use a function key combo to switch from USB input mode to bluetooth input mode. Mine is old enough that it was microusb but looks like they still make them and now use usb-c. However their version which does have a trackpad doesn't appear to have a usb mode it looks to be bluetooth only :(
That rubberized coating? Yeah, it sucks, and it gums up without a human ever touching it. I have pulled more than one item out of new packaging years later and had it stick to my fingers.
And they still use it!
The Logitech K830 if you can find one is a great one, but not cheap. Bluetooth and USB reciever. Not too big. Solid but no 10-key. Rechargeable. Backlit keyboard.
I know, what I use doesn't really fit into this video, but I use a Wooting HE60, a 60% gaming keyboard and a Logitech Superlight Pro X mouse...typical high-end gaming peripherals. :D
You could change that HE60 to a wireless keyboard, like the Keychron K3 which is a very light (
as for the Rii Keyboard/Trackpad Combo the funny thing is I literally just bought one and then a week later saw this video.
I wanted a crash keyboard that I could leave in the car and just throw in a bag that could do Bluetooth to one of my devices and also RF and act like a keyboard mouse and nothing else. I already proved itself quite handy. Pair that with the GPD pocket three which supports HDMI input and keyboard out I have a mobile crash rig. The only downside is it disables the keyboard from the internal system require new use the touchscreen and I have used it many times this week and it's nice but I still wanted a dedicated keyboard mouse that I could leave attached to the system I'm working on without locking my keyboard out. The other benefit is I also have a portable monitor so I have a lot of different options where I can use a combination of the GPD p3 and the keyboard or the keyboard in the monitor or just the GPD p3.
Hello sir have you heard of Vent... I mean Logitech K400?
LMAO. I knew people were going to bring up the K400 if I didn't mention it. Sure enough, you're the 4th :-D
Regarding the bluetooth only Protoarc keyboard. I used to do a little work-around with my Apple Magic keyboard, when I had to switch between my personal MacBook and a work supplied laptop.
Well, "had to" in the sense I primarily used my MacBook and sometimes needed to also use my work-laptop at my desk (I'm a teacher, so put this one under #firstworldproblems).
I hated, that I had to wait for Windows to pair with the keyboard, when I used it in clamshell mode and vice versa, when I had to unpair from the Windows PC and then re-connect with the MacBook - for what amounts to a simple switch and something I sometimes had to do in a pinch.
My work-around?
I used a third party bluetooth-dongle and paired the keyboard with that. I then just had to move the dongle, power cycle the keyboard and wait a few seconds.
I was first much later that I realized, that I could do the very same thing with my desktops (MacBook in clamshell-mode, a Lenovo Tiny, running Ubuntu, and my workstation) instead of moving a USB-cable around. Had three USB-extenders on the desktop acting like a poor mans KVM.
Benefits:
- Use the same keyboard, on multiple PCs
- No physical wear on the keyboard itself (USB-cable, of course).
- Fast switching
- If the dongle dies (bought cheap ones, so it happened more than once), it can easily be replaced.
- You now possibly have added bluetooth to a computer, that wasn't born with it.
- No adaption, when it comes to muscle memory. I'm a fairly fast typist, but that's why I mention it. It's just nice, not needing to re-adjust all the time.
Drawbacks:
- Sometimes, you just need two keyboards. I do have more than one keyboard, but the above work-around, does not solve a "need multiple keyboards"-problem.
- Compatibility / confusion, when I sometimes forgot to move the dongle and thought I needed to re-pair devices. I then realized, I was pairing the keyboard to the in-device bluetooth-radio. Not critical, just annoying.
- If you are the type, that's easily confused, I won't recommend using a Mac-keyboard (or "Mac layout", on a Windows-PC and then switch between macOS and Windows. I'm used to it, now. But I can see, that for some it's not an ideal situation and I get that.
I do use the calculator key all the time. 😀
Ok boomer 😀
@@CraftComputing I am pretty sure we are about the same age. It is either that or put it into an excel spreadsheet and do math there.
I finally ordered a new server case so I will be putting your proxmox 8.0 videos to work shortly.
Logitech diNovo Mini if you can get one, they work great! and it is bluetooth works with phone and ps3 and more
the Protoarc EM01 looks an awful lot like the new logitech trackball that's dual mode Bluetooth/dongle which I have and i like a lot. I had the previous model where for many years I was thinking there's gotta be a way to make this thing Bluetooth, which I also like although it's a slightly different from factor.
And much like the Logitech one one of them can store the dongle and the newer one can't. My solution was to buy a case and always put the dongle in the case. But on the upside both mode support Bluetooth and it's a unifying dongle which means it can be replaced.
We've purchased RII products before, they are VERY low quality. I personally use a Logitech K400 and a "Microsoft All-in-One Media Keyboard" at home that I use for my home theater PC and my homelab. Oddly enough i prefer the Microsoft one.
I love my Lenovo SK-8855 keyboard with a nub and mouse keys
Lock key on my logitech is for locking my screen. So maybe yours is too?
Protoarc EM01 seems like a worse version of a Logitech MX Ergo or M575. The inability to reassign the forward and back buttons under mac OS is a deal breaker for me with a lot of these less expensive trackballs. The Logitech stuff is pricier, but it just works. (Edit, and the M575 is only about $4 more than the Protoarc at the moment, so...)
I have a wireless mouse which supports one wifi dongle and two Bluetooth connections. I can switch between different PCs with one or two presses of a button.
Edit: You have quite thick fingers compared to an average white collar worker.
15:10 Use adhesive rubber feet.
i am currently typing this on one of those cheap logitech keyboard/trackpads i would love a premium version of this form factor logitech did make a nicer one but it seems to be dead and unavailable now a days
Maybe a keyboard and ball mouse on a keyboard tray?
I'm watching this using a Logitech K830 Illuminated keyboard. I've tried allot of different ones and keep coming back to this one. Only problem is they stopped making them . Boooo, So I bought 3 on runout special. I got lucky.
I never want anything, other than Logitech MX Keys mini or master again. Both mouse and keyboard are the best. Only downsite I had with it is that the usb c input only is for charging while I would like it to also use them through usb cable, especially the keyboard.
Also the vertical mouse of Logitech MX should also be really good, but haven't test that yet and also it needs a day or 2 to getting used to from what I have heard.
That you dont like the twist in you arm has more to do with how much you have to use your hand muscles when using the trackbal. Thats why I think the vertical mouse will be a different story, although still up to the user to like or dislike offcourse
i love beer, i love scottish single malt, i love cats and i just ordered parts for my first pc assembly. am i in the right place? :O :O :O
Do you want someone to hack a HID chip into that folding KB? Doesn't seem like it'd be too hard
That Proto track ball is essentially a logitech M570 style clone. I have been exclusively using this kind of track ball since the 1990s. We’re talking Mac clone days and earlier. Apple Quadro. ADP. Power PC stuff. I don’t think I have touched a mouse since I owned a Bondi blue iMac. Not even for gaming. Then I moved to Windows. For the last 10 or 12 years I have gone straight desktop replacements for work and play. Haven’t owned a mouse in that entire time. Only use the trackpad if I have to go into the bios. I have zero regrets.
This. I have an Logitech Mx ergo, it looks like the proto
I've been using a MX mini keys keyboard and a MX vertical mouse for a couple of years now and maybe they can fit yours needs, not a sub $50 btw
Trackpoint gang
I have something similar to the unnamed keyboard to my htpc, to that it is great, for all other things it is crap
EDIT: you found the kickstand hahaha
the comment about the media buttons on the handheld is stupid.
its like complaining about the netflix button placement on your tv remote. how often do you use that to be an issue?
and if you're using it as a powerpoint remote, you're not using the trackball or clicks.
but regarding its ball rattle, a bearing replacement with something a bit larger would probably fix that might
Nyphy needs to contact you.
Just buy a Logitec K400 its amazing
mouse => trackball > trackpad
Win + L, maybe?
less real estate » smaller typing surface » smaller keys and nonstandard layouts » cramped » no thank you
You need beer-proof keyboard. Anything else not accceptable
You need to stop spilling beer.
First
seems to be right
Durst
That's a 60% keyboard... noob.