I bought a Rainier 2 weeks ago and have it on my technics 1200mk2, and it sounds amazing. Tracks great and pretty much eliminated any inner groove distortion. The more I use it the better it sounds. Love it !
A friend of mine who worked at a good stereo retailer told me that it’s common that two identical model cartridges will sound different. Apparently it’s hard to have perfect quality control in cartridge and stylus manufacturing.
The reducing output voltage as you move up the range is likely due to a smaller magnet being attached to the cantilever as you spend more money. This reduces moving mass and improves the high frequencies. I bed those bodies are all the same.
This review was done very well..... I have the Rainier on my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo, and I am very happy with the sound. Not hearing the distortion or sibilance described here, with my current receiver and speaker config. I tend to swap turntables and speakers in my multiple systems. This might reveal the deficiencies you describe.... but for now, I'm loving the Rainier!!!
thank you joe... a very good test from you ... I was almost ready to buy a Sumiko Rainier at 70 euros ... an used item with no more than 20 hours... but after reading about distortion I changed my mind... I love my shure v15 iv and my shure m97ed just because they have a very low distortion and every vinyl can be played for hours and hours without suffering fatigue... by this way, a Sumiko Rainier wouldn't have been much appreciated by me...
Trouble with mounting a Rainier on a Debut Carbon series table is that it’s outside the optimal range. You either need a higher compliance cartridge or you need to add mass. Note that 2m series cartridges are higher compliance carts, akin to a Nagaoka, Grado or medium compliance soundsmith. The easiest permanent solution would be to use Soundsmith brass ez mount screws to bring the combined arm+cartridge weight up to around 18g. This will put the resonate frequency around 10.6 hz, down from nearly 13hz. The X series tables with the 9cc arm don’t have this issue. They have a higher effective mass. That’s why the. X8 can be shipped with the Moonstone pre installed. The U-turn arm is heavier. It’s similar to a Rega. This is why it’s more optimal with the Sumiko than the ProJect.
The best phono cart reviews on the net Joe!! I can understand getting a starter cart that is bonded elliptical on a so-so setup because you won't be able to extract the potential of a better quality cart anyways. However, a quality system will emphasize the deficiencies. For me, The sweet spot has been nude elliptical styluses for the value. Yes you will still get some inner groove distortion with nude ellipticals on the most challenging records, but overall the dollar spent for satisfaction ratio is tops ($200 range) in my opinion. As you go up the food chain of carts, the dollar spent to satisfaction ratio really becomes lopsided. Example, my MP-500 is a great sounding cart, but it is in no way $500 better sound to dollar spent than say my other nude elliptical cartridges. I still stand by my personal experience that the AT microline carts are tops for eliminating inner groove distortion. Great video!!
That's interesting that it performed better on the U-Turn than on the EVO. I'm debating whether to get one of these on its own. I looked at upgrading it to a better stylus later, but I find it hard to justify what Sumiko wants for them, especially when they're all bonded .3 x .7. If I'm gonna pay that much for a stylus, it should at least be nude, if not something like a Microline or a Shibata. You don't get that until you get to the Amethyst, but then you have to buy an entire cartridge for that because the stylus is incompatible.
I agree. The pricing is a bit high. I think maybe the AT-VM95EN with its nude stylus at $119 might be a better value right now but I haven't heard one on my stuff yet so we'll see. :)
@@EzeeLinux I've heard a lot of good things about the 95EN. I was considering it but I went straight to the ML. I might put an EN stylus on the one I have attached to my mmf-2.2 before I sell it. My main concern though is IGD, since the 95e has a fair amount of it and even though the EN stylus is nude, it's still the same .3 x .7 as the E stylus.
@@EzeeLinuxI took your advice and picked up an 95EN earlier this year. I liked it almost as much as the ML. It actually solved the IGD problem just as well as the ML did, but cheaper. The only downside with it is that it only has slightly better stylus life than the E stylus. Other than that, I was very happy with it, especially considering my only other choice would have been the Shibata since there seems to be some mysterious shortage of ML styli. Personally, if I didn't know better, I'd swear AT killed it off, but that wouldn't be really smart because that would leave a huge gap between the EN and the SH.
As it turns out, it's looking like the entire "Amethyst stylus only works on the Amethyst" thing may have been a ripoff. Sumiko just released a cartridge called the Wellfleet, which slots in between the Moonstone and the Amethyst, and it can take all of the replacement styli the others have, including the Amethyst. So I'm thinking it's kinda like putting a 2M Bronze or Black stylus on a 2M Red or Blue body; it can be done, but as 10cc said, you won't feel the benefit, or at least not as much...
@@EzeeLinux ok so I set it to where just the needle touches record, but on high frequency’s like “s’s”, it distorts, just bought it, still playing with it, thanks for replying!!
@@leonsam12 It needs to be set at the proper tracking force... You can't do that by eye, you must either set the arm up with the proper procedure using the numbers on the counterweight or use a VTF scale. These carts have a very narrow range and they expect to be tracked at 2 grams. Improper alignment can also cause sibilance issues.... If you don't know how to do that either take the time to learn or take the table to someone who does.
@@EzeeLinux thanks for all the advise, took back to store and they determined it was a defective Cartridge and gave me a replacement from a brand new Carbon EVO😌👍
If you ever get to listen to the insanely priced cartridges you will be very disappointed to learn that there is a level of performance most didn't know vinyl was capable of.
Agreed. I purchased a Pro-ject debut carbon evo and the stock rainier cartridge sounds very weak, flat, boring and does not reproduce the music in the groove accurately. They should have kept the Ortofon 2M. I'm sending this table back.
Not surprised it performed better on the U-Turn, I regrettably bought a Pro-Ject debut carbon EVO and its the most expensive pile of junk I have ever bought. The tonearm is pathetically resonate and picks up the tiniest clunk from the platter bearing and is so hollow sounding.
USELESS. talk talk talk. Play a test record and measure the distortion. Even playing a record with a 3kHz tone for us to hear would be something. Test results over "talk talk talk" .
I bought a Rainier 2 weeks ago and have it on my technics 1200mk2, and it sounds amazing. Tracks great and pretty much eliminated any inner groove distortion. The more I use it the better it sounds. Love it !
You got lucky... Must have been a better stylus than mine. :)
A friend of mine who worked at a good stereo retailer told me that it’s common that two identical model cartridges will sound different. Apparently it’s hard to have perfect quality control in cartridge and stylus manufacturing.
5 mv i doubt it... !!!! Shure's were 9.5 mv that's the output by the way..... Jico's NUDE are atleast 8.0 mv and track lighter
The reducing output voltage as you move up the range is likely due to a smaller magnet being attached to the cantilever as you spend more money. This reduces moving mass and improves the high frequencies. I bed those bodies are all the same.
This review was done very well..... I have the Rainier on my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo, and I am very happy with the sound. Not hearing the distortion or sibilance described here, with my current receiver and speaker config. I tend to swap turntables and speakers in my multiple systems. This might reveal the deficiencies you describe.... but for now, I'm loving the Rainier!!!
thank you joe... a very good test from you ... I was almost ready to buy a Sumiko Rainier at 70 euros ... an used item with no more than 20 hours... but after reading about distortion I changed my mind... I love my shure v15 iv and my shure m97ed just because they have a very low distortion and every vinyl can be played for hours and hours without suffering fatigue... by this way, a Sumiko Rainier wouldn't have been much appreciated by me...
Trouble with mounting a Rainier on a Debut Carbon series table is that it’s outside the optimal range. You either need a higher compliance cartridge or you need to add mass. Note that 2m series cartridges are higher compliance carts, akin to a Nagaoka, Grado or medium compliance soundsmith.
The easiest permanent solution would be to use Soundsmith brass ez mount screws to bring the combined arm+cartridge weight up to around 18g. This will put the resonate frequency around 10.6 hz, down from nearly 13hz.
The X series tables with the 9cc arm don’t have this issue. They have a higher effective mass. That’s why the. X8 can be shipped with the Moonstone pre installed.
The U-turn arm is heavier. It’s similar to a Rega. This is why it’s more optimal with the Sumiko than the ProJect.
The best phono cart reviews on the net Joe!! I can understand getting a starter cart that is bonded elliptical on a so-so setup because you won't be able to extract the potential of a better quality cart anyways. However, a quality system will emphasize the deficiencies. For me, The sweet spot has been nude elliptical styluses for the value. Yes you will still get some inner groove distortion with nude ellipticals on the most challenging records, but overall the dollar spent for satisfaction ratio is tops ($200 range) in my opinion. As you go up the food chain of carts, the dollar spent to satisfaction ratio really becomes lopsided. Example, my MP-500 is a great sounding cart, but it is in no way $500 better sound to dollar spent than say my other nude elliptical cartridges. I still stand by my personal experience that the AT microline carts are tops for eliminating inner groove distortion. Great video!!
I'm with ya... I'm goona do the AT VM95EN and VM530EN in a future vid. That's what I'm running now and I love what I hear. :)
The Rainier through the Moonstone are interchangeable; Sumiko claims the Amethyst stylus only works with the Amethyst.
Thanks for another video about audio Frank. I can't wait for the AT video. That's my brand!
Who's Frank? :)
Sorry Joe...Bad case of the Sunday morning cobwebs 🤪
😄😄
Great breakdowns I am confused on new turntable what to get?
The Fluance RT series turntables are great for the money. I love my RT85. :)
That's interesting that it performed better on the U-Turn than on the EVO.
I'm debating whether to get one of these on its own. I looked at upgrading it to a better stylus later, but I find it hard to justify what Sumiko wants for them, especially when they're all bonded .3 x .7. If I'm gonna pay that much for a stylus, it should at least be nude, if not something like a Microline or a Shibata. You don't get that until you get to the Amethyst, but then you have to buy an entire cartridge for that because the stylus is incompatible.
I agree. The pricing is a bit high. I think maybe the AT-VM95EN with its nude stylus at $119 might be a better value right now but I haven't heard one on my stuff yet so we'll see. :)
@@EzeeLinux I've heard a lot of good things about the 95EN. I was considering it but I went straight to the ML. I might put an EN stylus on the one I have attached to my mmf-2.2 before I sell it. My main concern though is IGD, since the 95e has a fair amount of it and even though the EN stylus is nude, it's still the same .3 x .7 as the E stylus.
@@cubdukat Stylus shape has little to do with IGD... It more about compliance and stylus mass. I;ve heard conical with no IGD.
@@EzeeLinuxI took your advice and picked up an 95EN earlier this year. I liked it almost as much as the ML. It actually solved the IGD problem just as well as the ML did, but cheaper. The only downside with it is that it only has slightly better stylus life than the E stylus. Other than that, I was very happy with it, especially considering my only other choice would have been the Shibata since there seems to be some mysterious shortage of ML styli.
Personally, if I didn't know better, I'd swear AT killed it off, but that wouldn't be really smart because that would leave a huge gap between the EN and the SH.
As it turns out, it's looking like the entire "Amethyst stylus only works on the Amethyst" thing may have been a ripoff. Sumiko just released a cartridge called the Wellfleet, which slots in between the Moonstone and the Amethyst, and it can take all of the replacement styli the others have, including the Amethyst. So I'm thinking it's kinda like putting a 2M Bronze or Black stylus on a 2M Red or Blue body; it can be done, but as 10cc said, you won't feel the benefit, or at least not as much...
I saw that. I have been thinking about giving this cart another go with a Moonstone stylus on it, though. We shall see... :)
I also heard distortion on the “S” so I moved the weight a little more up, now my cartridge slightly drags on the record, is that a problem ?
Yes... You are running WAAAAYYYY too much tracking force! You're going to damage the cart and your records too if you don't fix it.
@@EzeeLinux ok so I set it to where just the needle touches record, but on high frequency’s like “s’s”, it distorts, just bought it, still playing with it, thanks for replying!!
@@leonsam12 It needs to be set at the proper tracking force... You can't do that by eye, you must either set the arm up with the proper procedure using the numbers on the counterweight or use a VTF scale. These carts have a very narrow range and they expect to be tracked at 2 grams. Improper alignment can also cause sibilance issues.... If you don't know how to do that either take the time to learn or take the table to someone who does.
@@EzeeLinux thanks for all the advise, took back to store and they determined it was a defective Cartridge and gave me a replacement from a brand new Carbon EVO😌👍
If you ever get to listen to the insanely priced cartridges you will be very disappointed to learn that there is a level of performance most didn't know vinyl was capable of.
Oh, I have heard them.... I just have a very hard time justifying the expense. :)
@@EzeeLinux Fair enough. But if ever you decide to get one man, you'll be ecstatic!
This or Or r ofon 2M Blue?
came here for a rainier review but learned about different types of stylus' instead 😅
Agreed. I purchased a Pro-ject debut carbon evo and the stock rainier cartridge sounds very weak, flat, boring and does not reproduce the music in the groove accurately. They should have kept the Ortofon 2M. I'm sending this table back.
Not surprised it performed better on the U-Turn, I regrettably bought a Pro-Ject debut carbon EVO and its the most expensive pile of junk I have ever bought. The tonearm is pathetically resonate and picks up the tiniest clunk from the platter bearing and is so hollow sounding.
My carbon wasn't quite that bad but it sure was a disappointment... It gave me nothing but trouble from day one. :)
You should audition a rega turntable if you get a chance. If I had to choose a belt drive, I’ll take a rega anytime.
I was looking at getting a debut evo? What else would you recommend at the $600 range instead?
@@EzeeLinux not my experience at all
USELESS. talk talk talk. Play a test record and measure the distortion. Even playing a record with a 3kHz tone for us to hear would be something. Test results over "talk talk talk" .