Most modern gun writers are full of bluster, but you are an extremely knowledgeable gun guy. You are full of facts and I appreciate your actual knowledge
The 338 Engles is made from the 9.3x63 case. It was developed in Germany in the late 80’s-90,s and really never took off except in what was Austria before WWll. I have seen a few old Mauser actions built for it when I was in Germany in 1989 and 90 at a couple of the ranges. It was a hunting round for the big bore as I was told by those who used it.
@@peaceriver7808 it depended on the ammo maker for the most part and who reamed the chamber. It all depended which ammo from which maker was better for the individual rifle has always been my understanding. This was described to me by a very sought after rifle builder outside of northern Munich.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns It does exist in a cartridge called 9,3x63 Miller & Greis . Do not know if it is that cartridge that is the base. RWS also had a cartridge 9,3x63 if it was the same I do not know.
I have a Turkish Mauser sporterized in 8-06. It was re chambered to fit a 30-06 case and 8mm or .323 bullets. It also has a Shaw barrel with not a lot of rounds through it . Very good hunting rifle
Cases for this 338 Engels. Tge quick and reilable way: 35 Whelen cases, anneal necks down to the shoulder. Then run the cases in the 338E die. This will create a false shoulder. Check to see if the bolt will close, a wee bit of resistance is okay. Load with 336-06 data and fireform this will make necessary improvements. The other method using 338-06 cases: anneal as before, run the 338-06 cases into a larger caliber die to expand the neck, again run it into the Engels die, make sure you have slightly tiggt headspace, load and fireform. Anealling will munimize case loss. Fireforming from live ammo is a recipe for disaster. This can be done with Ackley designs. When you alter the headspace there's a procedure to follow.
Based off the length and it being of german origin, most likely formed off a 8x68S parent case. Which would also explain how/why they bothered to rebore the original 8mm barrel (it may have originally been in 8x68S chambering to begin with) as the .338E would entirely clean up the case dimensions (with the blown forward shoulders and shoulder angle).
No 8x68S has a bigger Casehead and Body then Standard 30.06 it wouldnt chamber 8x68S is a non belted Magnum more like 8mm Rem Mag but the Schuler Rounds have 0.512 Rim not 0.472 of a 308 or 0.532 of the Standard Magnum
@@lenzadlberger The bore has been re-bored on this rifle, and the chamber has been reamed out. Only thing to do then is open up the bolt face slightly if at all.
@@paulvenn4447 yeah i know but the Chamber Casting shown says it is a longer 30.06 Case not the fatter 8x68S Case 😉 i have a 8x68S in a Mauser 77 i know how it looks and the Casting ist slimmer
I had a 338-06 AI. Made by David Gentry Montana. 1/2” groups were standard. Took everything from brown bear to antelope and many many elk. Stunning performance. !!👍👍
Thanks, really interesting! No apologies needed, indepth thinking in me comes out in my own words only I understand. In other words, we can Cypher it plenty close enough, same as we'd all be doing with a totally unique unknown cartridge! Love to have that rifle myself! Big 👍
Perhaps look into the 9.3x66 (.370 Sako Magnum). That’s a fairly recent cartridge design, however, so it may not be the original parent case depending on the age of the build. It would likely make for a good candidate for forming cases if the base diameter of the .338 Engels is ~.470,” however. If the base diameter is larger than ~.470, perhaps 9.3x64 is the parent case. It’s similar in dimension to a .284 Win at the base, but a little longer than a .30-06. The 8x68 may also be worth looking into.
I reloaded cartridges for over 50 years and I never heard of a .338 Engels. I'm surprised at the short neck on the Engels case. That's a beautiful stock. Thanks for sharing.
@@johnstruewing1164 You're right. I forgot to take into account the case shown is a .338-06 with the shoulder blown toward the case mouth. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
If there is some slop in the extractor with an '06 type case I might look at the 30R Blaser. The base is only a few thousands bigger and the shoulder is much farther forward. That rifle is the type of rifle I love - odd, obscure, well made, and a research project. Thank you for sharing!
Very interesting! Looks like the rifle used to have a Suhler claw mount, but was refitted to EAW pivot. The front post in front of the receiver certainly looks like the top part was retroactively changed. The reticle you are describing, has to be Absehen 2 / German reticle No.2: A thin horizontal line with a thick vertical post. Specifically designed for quick snap shots on driven game, what the scope itself also suggests. Works amazingly well. These scopes and mounts became popular in Germany during the 80s, with increasing game numbers and increasing popularity of driven hunts. Don't know much about .338 Engels though.
Thank you for the information - much appreciated. You're right - the rifle/scope combination is fast, accurate and effective. I'll do more on this rifle and cartridge.
Interesting chambering. If you can get your hands on some '.30-06 basic' cases for fireforming, they are 2.65 inches long, and give you a longer neck. You could neck them down in your die and fireform them to final dimensions. You covered the pros and cons of fireforming using the extractor for headspace. A bullet seated out to contact the rifling would be better (perhaps your factory .338-06 is doing that). The short necks won't really be an issue for a box magazine, bolt action rifle. Thanks for the video!
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Yes, there is. It is used for several wildcats based on that case. It has a .30-06 head size, is cylindrical and 2.65" long. It would have to be necked down, of course. I haven't checked on it for years, but they used to be available already annealed for case forming. Buffalo Arms carries basic cases, I don't know if they have .30-06 basic. I used their .405 basic to make cases for .405 Win and .35 Win.
All of the Ackley Improved (AI) cartridges keep the same headspace as their factory counterparts. This was so that factory ammunition could be used. The cases would fireform to the chamber. The changes of AI vs. factory cartridges are that the shoulder is blown out (not forward), and the shoulder angle is sharper. This change was done to get a bit more speed, yes, but primarily to get a lot more reloads from the cases. Ackley made the AI chambering for pretty much every well-known cartridge. One that has stood the test of time is the 280 AI, and if you can't find that ammo, just get a box of 280 Remington. I can't find anything about the 338 Engles either, but judging how much that shoulder moves forward, I'd suspect the parent case to be either the 8x68 or the 9.3x72. You can reduce the case separation by loading the bullet out far enough to touch the lands. This eliminates the excess headspace and reduces the case separation issues.
280 Rem or 270 Win is a bit longer than the parent 30-06 (64.5mm vs 63.3mm with the 30-06) I'd neck it up to 35 Whelan with the die screwed out to match your case shoulder.... then down to 338 with your Engels die. That will give you a partial .358 shoulder that will hold your head space. You might need to anneal your case necks as you are working it a bit. You could then load with 338-06 data and fire form. Your neck might still be a bit short but you'd be safe to load and your brass wouldn't be stretched.
Hi North, I Haven't Sent you A Message In A Long Time, and I Still Owe You a Favor. """ But """ On This Subject,.338 Farfrmpukin. 😂 I Think A Slightly Better Case Opinion Would Be 7 X 64 Brenneke. Right Now There's A Really Good Supply of Speer Nickle Plated Primed Brass ( Cheep ) The Case Has Less Body Tapper, A Farther Forward Shoulder, and Sharper Angle. I Agree, Neck it Up to 35 Cal, ( no need to Angle if New Brass ) And Just Full Size to Where The Bolt " JUST " Closes And Fireform. You Could Even Do The Pistol Power & Malt O Meal, witch In The Past I Thought Was Stupid, But I Started Doing Several Years Ago, 1. After Loosing WAY TO MANY 348 Winchester Case Because I Couldn't get The Corect Powder's, & 2. Hornaday Discontinued. 348 Diamator Bullets After """ Blasting """ Half of My Supply Just Dicking Around. !!!!! And """ When """ I Found Some For Sale I had to call a Help Line Afterwards Because I Was Epsteined ( Island ) !!!
@@ronaldmasterbud1551 The other option would be to start with 9.3x62 and just neck to 338 Engels to a crush fit in the Engels chamber. Would save some work and you'd also protect the head space. You'd end up with a pretty short case though. If 9.3x62 is the parent case the Engels sure has a short neck!
@@north61 I'd Just Go Instead 35 Whelan, You'd Still End Up Ruffly. 035 - .040" longer than If you Use 9.3 X 62 mm I've Used Both in My .375 Whelan Ackley Improved. And That's What It Works out To. For My 35 Brass I've Used Both Federal & Hornaday, and 9.3 X 62 only PPU. I've Also Necked Up 30 - 06 to .375 Whelan, New Federal Nickle, and Once Fired Lake City 67 ( Unbelievably No Problems, Now on It's 4 th Firing " and Still Going Strong " ??? Going to Fire Till Failure. ) !!!
Try the 8x68S Cartridge, it is longer and has similar dimensions to the 338-06. The base is less than a mm larger so if the extractor will hold it and it chambers you will have a winner. The bullets will be loose down the barrel but the brass will be better fire-formed for the next loadings.
I'm not so sure that the Engels case is based on the .30-06. I see swelling ahead of the case web on the fired rounds, indicating that the chamber diameter is larger than the -06 case, not to mention the length problem. If it was mine, I'd have a smith do a chamber casting and take clean measurements. Cerrosafe has to be measured within a certain time period to give valid readings.
You are a brave man. What a gorgeous stock. My 270AI on a 721 270win base was such an amazing gun. I did get careless a few times and have to have to the gun disassembled to extract over preasure cartridges, once even broke the bolt handle off and had to weld it back on but the gun was a accurate dream. Part of that was because it was 270And the other part was because of the Heart Barrel and longer free bore allowing for longer bullets set further out. Lastly I just wanna say on that particular action the bolt handle being down as far as it is Is really ahead of it's time If you think about the size of modern scopes today and the need to have that bolt handle down so that Play K98 extraction doesn't cause and argument between scopes personal space and bolt handle desire to travel
Mike, that is a beautiful rifle. I am in love with Mauser rifles!! And anything in 338 is great. Of course, I am partial to .358 caliber since that is what a 35 Whelen is. I don't know how you find all those jewels, but I'm fascinated by many if them. Thank you for such a thoughtful video, and I know you will solve the question perfectly!
I have two 9x57 Mausers that shoot 250gn round nose bullets at normal hunting ranges 100m they will put a big hole in most v anything , and so will my 35 Whelens, or the 9.3x62 Mausers
Very good video, I thoroughly enjoyed watching the information concerning this fine Rifle, I can see through the comments that someone has come up with information that probably will help you with fire forming the correct case that’s needed, I might mention something else. Another thing I like about your channel is, it doesn’t look like you doctor your video up to where it has to be perfect about everything you admit things as you go along about like repeating and so on and so forth I like that , you have a cool channel and I will always continue to watch, Good day, Friend !
8x64S Brenneke case could been reformed also Triebel is a very good tool and die maker so they have data for it . 8x75 that Reimer Johannsen makes A long , long 8mm thin case along style of a rimless case
Great presentation Mike! A nice rifle and an interesting chambering. Ironically I just worked with Triebel on getting an InnoMount Scope mount purchased and shipped to me here in the USA. Since Triebel made the reloading die you have, maybe you could contact them and see if they could provide you some information on that chambering? They must have the chamber dimensions and likely would know what the parent case is. Looks like a fun project. Let us know how you make out.
That’s what I get for not watching the video to the end the first time 😂. It must have indeed been a one off at least for Triebel. Good luck on your project and you have a beautiful rifle there.
The Austrians had some cartridges based on the X x57 mauser or the 30-06 base but much much longer . Aprox . the length of an H&H case. I thing they were from Peterlongo of Austria
8×68 will not fit. I have one and a 6.5 × 68. Same case. There was an American wildcatter who had a whole series of cartridges sharp shoulder moved forward on 06 case. Very similar. Name was Gibbs. Some mention of them in P.O. Ackley's books I think. I had an 8mm Gibbs for several years. Laid low everything I pointed it at. Love your stuff. As for the 71 or 72 Peterlongo cases I used to make those for a friend from 9.3×74 rimmed cases from RWS by turning the rimmed heads to rimless in a lathe. Formed them up trimmed the over length necks and loaded them up. He loved it.
Mike! you are the person to ask this question: Imagine theres a war and your country calls up a militia in defense. You have to bring one rifle. 90% of the time will be spent standing around in cold rain or hot mud, setting the rifle down is just not possible, so it has to either be laid down on a vehicle or on your shoulder; you have to clean it and it has to work in a battle. what rifle do you take?
30-03 brass is longer than 30-06 and could possibly be formed if you could find it (unlikely) 270 Winchester might be a bit longer when formed as its parent case was actually the 30-03.
So funny how you mentioned how it’s hard to think about WHAT you’re about to talk about and HOW you need to express it because I was just thinking how that exactly is always the hardest for me to do when filming a video
No firearms expert..But in theory, by name Engels, a gunproducer in Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium , Luxemburg, Alsace- Lorraine or Southern Tyrol could be also possible. As i noted, in theory.
I suggest "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges: For Rifles and Handguns" by Ken Howell, and a micrometer, to study the fired round to Identify a parent cartridge. While not perfect, there is no better reference. It is a beautiful rifle, and would do good work on elk and the like. The 30-06 is not the parent case.
Very interesting book - thank you : ) You're right - the 30-06 is what can be made to work - but the longer overall length of the Engels makes things interesting. It'll be great to work it out and go hunting. Thanks as always!
What an interesting cartridge you have . I enjoy good mauser actions my self . I have quite a few in several different calibers. Going by your fire formed case, it's possible it was made from the 9.3×64 Brenneke necked up to .338 caliber . I also have a 338-06, and I compared it to my Brenneke, and it looks to be a match . Now iam not saying 100%, that's it . I would need one of your spent rounds to verify. Judging by what I have, if you add the Brenneke neck and extra length, it looks to be a match . Hope this helps. Here in America, we have more .338 calibers cartridges than I can name . From the 8.6 Blk out , 338 federal , 338-06 , 338 ARC , 338 Winchester magnum, 338 weatherby magnum, 338 Remington ultra mag, 338 Norma magnum, 338 Lapua magnum, 338-378 weatherby magnum, 33 Nosler, 338 Edge, 33 XC I could go on & on not to mention all the wildcat 338 calibers. I hope this helps. Maybe it is the 9.3×64 Brenneke . Thank you for another great video.
I had my own fun over this past year trying to track down a wildcat cartridge called the 416 Whammy. I was able to trace its history and now have load data for it from a more recent form of the wildcat, but will need to have dies made to fit the chamber dimensions. For those of us true gun guys, the unavailability of ammo is not daunting, but becomes a passion project. What I have in essence is a model 600 rifle custom built by SSK in a 416 caliber based on the 350 remington magnum case. A short action 400 Whelen if you will.
@UnitedStatesOfGuns the most current version has been nicknamed the 416 Express. I would like to say thank you for sharing your rifle as well, and look forward to a follow up video when you get the brass sorted out. Would also love to know if the bore of your rifle is a true .338 or a different size. Love keeping old rifles alive. Thanks again for the wonderful video.
Very nice gun and video. Maybe you ask Mr. Triebel about the caliber. He is a very nice guy. I think he will help you getting information, if you tell him about the gun and who you are.
It's most likely a German patronymic. From German, it translates to "Angels" probably meaning "Angel's son," similarly to how "Davis" is the shortened form of "Davidson."
That looks similar to the 338 OKH (one of Elmer Keith's wildcats). He made a belted version that I believe was the precursor for the .338 Win Mag. Yours looks similar (with the shoulder moved further forward) but with no belt. Interesting.
It’s been my experience, but I read it, I believe, in P.O. Ackley’s book that the benefits of wildcat cartridges exist mostly in the minds of their creators.
This cartridge interests me. There has to be some type of 30 basic brass that could be formed to make it the correct length. I am going to research this a bit and check all my old books to see if any mention of it.
It looks a lot like .338 SABI but even more like 8.5x63 created by Werner Reb and which is marketed in Europe by different manufacturers including Brenneke. There is an 8.5x63 Magnum but the base case is the 9.3x64 Brenneke which also gave the .376 Steyr and a 6.5x63 Magnum which is a clone of the 264 Winchester for performance.
Looks kindof like a .30 Gibbs necked up to 338. Curious if you could make it the same way. Necking it up to 35 whelen then back into the 338 Engels die prior to fire forming so you get a false shoulder. Would eliminate the excessive headspace.
Very nice Mauser Mike. I have studying on the .444 marlin with is a 30-06 straight wall case I was wandering maybe after you necked it down if it would give you enough length?
It will be interesting to see if anyone knows this wildcat. How much room is there for a longer case? Seems this is like a 338 Norma Magnum in length but not belted. What would be the parent case for this cartridge? One possible solution would be to take some Norma Mag brass and remove the belt on a mini-lathe. Put another way, this cartridge is a lot like looking at the .30-06 like the Americans looked at the 7x57...add a 1/8" and neck it up...
What are the Proof marks from ) country ) . Their proof house might be able to provide some information . .338 is a relativelt modern bore (except for the 33 winchester.)
Since the 338-06 rounds are so much shorter and of less case volume,you’re running at substantially less pressure. No reason why you can’t coat them with case lube before firing. They will fireform very easily with little stress on the brass.
The .338-06 or the European engal round is ok but id have a smith to open the camber to the .338 win mag and resize the mag and the bolthead if needed. You might put a little bit money in it and you will have a far better ability with a .338 round thats great for just about anything on feet.
So the fireformed brass is identical to the .338-06 jdj . I think you will find your answers in old RWS catalogs. The fact that the extractor released the cartridge on firing hints that its based on the 9.3x62mm Mauser brass dimensions which has a case head thats about 0.004 inches larger than .30-06 brass. In my vartidges of the world 12th edition, I am seeing 6.5 x65mm RWS ,6.5 x68mm RWS ,8x64mm with S&J bullet diameters of .318 and .323 ,8x68mmS RWS,, 9.3x64mm Brenneke( also in the old RWS catalogs) and 10.75x68mm Mauser . I think these generally are in the direction you should look ,for brass to size up or down to fit that chamber properly. Maybe with fireforming or maybe not. I know 4 thousandths of an inch isn't much ,but its a good hint as to what you need and explains why the '06 brass didn't pull out smoothly. Best of luck! If you ever want to check small bore wildcats and proprietary cartidges , Reeds ammunition ,ssk industries and James Calhoun mfg all deal with sub 22 caliber stuff. (19 badger ,.14/222 eichelberger magnum,.12 cooper ccm and .10 eichelberger LR are examples) . You can also get kits from Calhoun for setting up cz527 rifles in a few .19 caliber rounds if you desire. They have all the stuff needed to shoot .19 with .
Most modern gun writers are full of bluster, but you are an extremely knowledgeable gun guy. You are full of facts and I appreciate your actual knowledge
Thank you for taking the time to write; I'll keep going : )
That is a beautiful rifle .Thanks for showcasing it
The 338 Engles is made from the 9.3x63 case. It was developed in Germany in the late 80’s-90,s and really never took off except in
what was Austria before WWll. I have seen a few old Mauser actions built for it when I was in Germany in 1989 and 90 at a couple of the ranges. It was a hunting round for the big bore as I was told by those who used it.
Thank you I have 9.3 x 62 but no 9.3 x 63 - maybe it was the 62
They were interchangeably expressed either way. Sweet piece, for sure. @@UnitedStatesOfGuns
@@peaceriver7808 it depended on the ammo maker for the most part and who reamed the chamber. It all depended which ammo from which maker was better for the individual rifle has always been my understanding. This was described to me by a very sought after rifle builder outside of northern Munich.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns It does exist in a cartridge called 9,3x63 Miller & Greis .
Do not know if it is that cartridge that is the base.
RWS also had a cartridge 9,3x63 if it was the same I do not know.
@@UnitedStatesOfGunsSo whats the actual caliber? .338-06 or .30-06 i am kinda lost?
I have a Turkish Mauser sporterized in 8-06. It was re chambered to fit a 30-06 case and 8mm or .323 bullets. It also has a Shaw barrel with not a lot of rounds through it . Very good hunting rifle
I loved this episode, more follow up on this rifle and cartridge! 😊
I sure appreciate you and your channel. Thoughtful, easy listening, and I ALWAYS learn something!
Thank you!
Cases for this 338 Engels. Tge quick and reilable way: 35 Whelen cases, anneal necks down to the shoulder. Then run the cases in the 338E die. This will create a false shoulder. Check to see if the bolt will close, a wee bit of resistance is okay. Load with 336-06 data and fireform this will make necessary improvements. The other method using 338-06 cases: anneal as before, run the 338-06 cases into a larger caliber die to expand the neck, again run it into the Engels die, make sure you have slightly tiggt headspace, load and fireform. Anealling will munimize case loss. Fireforming from live ammo is a recipe for disaster. This can be done with Ackley designs. When you alter the headspace there's a procedure to follow.
Your channel only gets moved fascinating.
Thank you very much.
Buffalo arms in Montana has listed 30-03 brass which has a neck 1.5 mm longer than 30-06
Based off the length and it being of german origin, most likely formed off a 8x68S parent case. Which would also explain how/why they bothered to rebore the original 8mm barrel (it may have originally been in 8x68S chambering to begin with) as the .338E would entirely clean up the case dimensions (with the blown forward shoulders and shoulder angle).
Was the 8x68 a military round?
No 8x68S has a bigger Casehead and Body then Standard 30.06 it wouldnt chamber 8x68S is a non belted Magnum more like 8mm Rem Mag but the Schuler Rounds have 0.512 Rim not 0.472 of a 308 or 0.532 of the Standard Magnum
@@lenzadlberger The bore has been re-bored on this rifle, and the chamber has been reamed out. Only thing to do then is open up the bolt face slightly if at all.
@@paulvenn4447 yeah i know but the Chamber Casting shown says it is a longer 30.06 Case not the fatter 8x68S Case 😉 i have a 8x68S in a Mauser 77 i know how it looks and the Casting ist slimmer
@@paulvenn4447 i think it is propably a 9.3x66 Sako Wildcat but i dont know
My last build is a Chech VZ24 BRNO action, Shaw barrel in .338-06 A-Square. I can make lots of ammo with that brass!
Fantastic rifle! I love the old mausers!
My son has regular 22-250 with a plane jane looking mauser 98 barreled by P.O. Ackley
Very interesting.
I hope you keep us updated on what you find out.
Best Wishes from Montana! M.H.
I had a 338-06 AI. Made by David Gentry Montana. 1/2” groups were standard. Took everything from brown bear to antelope and many many elk. Stunning performance. !!👍👍
Sir, you put out excellent videos! My favorite one so far was the one on the 8mm Remington Magnum.
I liked it, but it was discontinued.
You're not dotty, you're an in depth thinker
Thanks, really interesting! No apologies needed, indepth thinking in me comes out in my own words only I understand. In other words, we can Cypher it plenty close enough, same as we'd all be doing with a totally unique unknown cartridge! Love to have that rifle myself! Big 👍
So enjoy your videos. You are a wealth of knowledge. Thanks for sharing
Perhaps look into the 9.3x66 (.370 Sako Magnum). That’s a fairly recent cartridge design, however, so it may not be the original parent case depending on the age of the build. It would likely make for a good candidate for forming cases if the base diameter of the .338 Engels is ~.470,” however.
If the base diameter is larger than ~.470, perhaps 9.3x64 is the parent case. It’s similar in dimension to a .284 Win at the base, but a little longer than a .30-06. The 8x68 may also be worth looking into.
This seems the most likely
never thought id see u here! u gotta get kentucky to shoot ur rifle with the "dimadomes" hah
i also love turkeys channel too. thanks for pushing out great hardware
9.3x66 is actually too short. I checked on the 8x68s and that seems a better fit.
The parent case was the 9.3x62.
Mike you constantly put out amazing content.
Fantastic find, very informative now I'm curious
Super interesting
I reloaded cartridges for over 50 years and I never heard of a .338 Engels. I'm surprised at the short neck on the Engels case. That's a beautiful stock. Thanks for sharing.
The original .338 Engels case may not actually have that short of a case mouth.
@@johnstruewing1164 You're right. I forgot to take into account the case shown is a .338-06 with the shoulder blown toward the case mouth. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Good looking rifle!
If there is some slop in the extractor with an '06 type case I might look at the 30R Blaser. The base is only a few thousands bigger and the shoulder is much farther forward. That rifle is the type of rifle I love - odd, obscure, well made, and a research project. Thank you for sharing!
WONDERFUL, AS ALWAYS. GREAT PROGRAMING. THANK YOU !!!!!!
Thanks USOG
The thanks are all mine
Anything 338 is great
338-03 improved
All your rifles are beautiful. Even the really used ones
Fantastic and interesting rifle. German engineering and thinking outside of the box.
Gun gods from orbendorf masterpiece this GEW98 sporter.
Very interesting!
Looks like the rifle used to have a Suhler claw mount, but was refitted to EAW pivot. The front post in front of the receiver certainly looks like the top part was retroactively changed.
The reticle you are describing, has to be Absehen 2 / German reticle No.2: A thin horizontal line with a thick vertical post. Specifically designed for quick snap shots on driven game, what the scope itself also suggests. Works amazingly well.
These scopes and mounts became popular in Germany during the 80s, with increasing game numbers and increasing popularity of driven hunts.
Don't know much about .338 Engels though.
Thank you for the information - much appreciated. You're right - the rifle/scope combination is fast, accurate and effective. I'll do more on this rifle and cartridge.
Thanks mike
Interesting chambering.
If you can get your hands on some '.30-06 basic' cases for fireforming, they are 2.65 inches long, and give you a longer neck. You could neck them down in your die and fireform them to final dimensions.
You covered the pros and cons of fireforming using the extractor for headspace. A bullet seated out to contact the rifling would be better (perhaps your factory .338-06 is doing that). The short necks won't really be an issue for a box magazine, bolt action rifle.
Thanks for the video!
Excellent advice - I didn't know there is a 30-06 Basic - I will find. Thank you!
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Yes, there is. It is used for several wildcats based on that case.
It has a .30-06 head size, is cylindrical and 2.65" long. It would have to be necked down, of course. I haven't checked on it for years, but they used to be available already annealed for case forming.
Buffalo Arms carries basic cases, I don't know if they have .30-06 basic. I used their .405 basic to make cases for .405 Win and .35 Win.
another excellent video. Thanks
Interesting outline of a rare unknown to me rifle . Thanks
I bet it was formed with 30 03 brass. That would give it the longer neck.
Good idea - I'll check - thank you
Thx for sharing!
All of the Ackley Improved (AI) cartridges keep the same headspace as their factory counterparts. This was so that factory ammunition could be used. The cases would fireform to the chamber. The changes of AI vs. factory cartridges are that the shoulder is blown out (not forward), and the shoulder angle is sharper.
This change was done to get a bit more speed, yes, but primarily to get a lot more reloads from the cases.
Ackley made the AI chambering for pretty much every well-known cartridge. One that has stood the test of time is the 280 AI, and if you can't find that ammo, just get a box of 280 Remington.
I can't find anything about the 338 Engles either, but judging how much that shoulder moves forward, I'd suspect the parent case to be either the 8x68 or the 9.3x72.
You can reduce the case separation by loading the bullet out far enough to touch the lands. This eliminates the excess headspace and reduces the case separation issues.
Very neat rifle and cartridge! The primer is almost popped out on that fire formed case!
Excessive headspace. Wrong case length, I'd put a caliper forward of the head, it looks expanded.
A necked up 270 Winchester would do nicely for fire forming because of the longer neck. Looks like a great wildcat.
Really great video, thanks!
Thanks for sharing it!
280 Rem or 270 Win is a bit longer than the parent 30-06 (64.5mm vs 63.3mm with the 30-06) I'd neck it up to 35 Whelan with the die screwed out to match your case shoulder.... then down to 338 with your Engels die. That will give you a partial .358 shoulder that will hold your head space. You might need to anneal your case necks as you are working it a bit. You could then load with 338-06 data and fire form. Your neck might still be a bit short but you'd be safe to load and your brass wouldn't be stretched.
Hi North, I Haven't Sent you A Message In A Long Time, and I Still Owe You a Favor.
""" But """ On This Subject,.338 Farfrmpukin. 😂 I Think A Slightly Better Case Opinion Would Be 7 X 64 Brenneke. Right Now There's A Really Good Supply of Speer Nickle Plated Primed Brass ( Cheep ) The Case Has Less Body Tapper, A Farther Forward Shoulder, and Sharper Angle. I Agree, Neck it Up to 35 Cal, ( no need to Angle if New Brass ) And Just Full Size to Where The Bolt " JUST " Closes And Fireform. You Could Even Do The Pistol Power & Malt O Meal, witch In The Past I Thought Was Stupid, But I Started Doing Several Years Ago, 1. After Loosing WAY TO MANY 348 Winchester Case Because I Couldn't get The Corect Powder's, & 2. Hornaday Discontinued. 348 Diamator Bullets After """ Blasting """ Half of My Supply Just Dicking Around. !!!!!
And """ When """ I Found Some For Sale I had to call a Help Line Afterwards Because I Was Epsteined ( Island ) !!!
@@ronaldmasterbud1551 The other option would be to start with 9.3x62 and just neck to 338 Engels to a crush fit in the Engels chamber. Would save some work and you'd also protect the head space. You'd end up with a pretty short case though. If 9.3x62 is the parent case the Engels sure has a short neck!
@@north61
I'd Just Go Instead 35 Whelan, You'd Still End Up Ruffly. 035 - .040" longer than If you Use 9.3 X 62 mm I've Used Both in My .375 Whelan Ackley Improved. And That's What It Works out To. For My 35 Brass I've Used Both Federal & Hornaday, and 9.3 X 62 only PPU. I've Also Necked Up 30 - 06 to .375 Whelan, New Federal Nickle, and Once Fired Lake City 67 ( Unbelievably No Problems, Now on It's 4 th Firing " and Still Going Strong " ??? Going to Fire Till Failure. ) !!!
The short neck may need special care when loading. Good luck with it. It's a beautiful rifle.
Try the 8x68S Cartridge, it is longer and has similar dimensions to the 338-06. The base is less than a mm larger so if the extractor will hold it and it chambers you will have a winner. The bullets will be loose down the barrel but the brass will be better fire-formed for the next loadings.
I had this happen when I did a chamber casting of a K98 that was rebarreled. Thought it was a 308 norma, but it fire formed into a 300 win mag casing.
I'm not so sure that the Engels case is based on the .30-06. I see swelling ahead of the case web on the fired rounds, indicating that the chamber diameter is larger than the -06 case, not to mention the length problem. If it was mine, I'd have a smith do a chamber casting and take clean measurements. Cerrosafe has to be measured within a certain time period to give valid readings.
Great advice and good observations.
You are a brave man. What a gorgeous stock. My 270AI on a 721 270win base was such an amazing gun. I did get careless a few times and have to have to the gun disassembled to extract over preasure cartridges, once even broke the bolt handle off and had to weld it back on but the gun was a accurate dream. Part of that was because it was 270And the other part was because of the Heart Barrel and longer free bore allowing for longer bullets set further out. Lastly I just wanna say on that particular action the bolt handle being down as far as it is Is really ahead of it's time If you think about the size of modern scopes today and the need to have that bolt handle down so that Play K98 extraction doesn't cause and argument between scopes personal space and bolt handle desire to travel
Thank you. It's all quite interesting if one goes in for these sorts of things. Your 721 must be my kind of rig.
Good info
@USOG a video on you doing a chamber cast would be cool!
Mike, that is a beautiful rifle. I am in love with Mauser rifles!! And anything in 338 is great. Of course, I am partial to .358 caliber since that is what a 35 Whelen is. I don't know how you find all those jewels, but I'm fascinated by many if them. Thank you for such a thoughtful video, and I know you will solve the question perfectly!
I have two 9x57 Mausers that shoot 250gn round nose bullets at normal hunting ranges 100m they will put a big hole in most v anything , and so will my 35 Whelens, or the 9.3x62 Mausers
Very good video, I thoroughly enjoyed watching the information concerning this fine Rifle, I can see through the comments that someone has come up with information that probably will help you with fire forming the correct case that’s needed, I might mention something else. Another thing I like about your channel is, it doesn’t look like you doctor your video up to where it has to be perfect about everything you admit things as you go along about like repeating and so on and so forth I like that , you have a cool channel and I will always continue to watch, Good day, Friend !
8x64S Brenneke case could been reformed also
Triebel is a very good tool and die maker so they have data for it .
8x75 that Reimer Johannsen makes
A long , long 8mm thin case along style of a rimless case
It has popped the primer out a bit too, but the next load should be OK... That's a REAL wildcat.....
Beautiful old Mauser, love those old rifles. The floor plate and trigger guard looks wrong colour wise, Intresting caliber.
Interesting
Great presentation Mike! A nice rifle and an interesting chambering. Ironically I just worked with Triebel on getting an InnoMount Scope mount purchased and shipped to me here in the USA. Since Triebel made the reloading die you have, maybe you could contact them and see if they could provide you some information on that chambering? They must have the chamber dimensions and likely would know what the parent case is. Looks like a fun project. Let us know how you make out.
Thank you! If you find the time we made a video as well.
That’s what I get for not watching the video to the end the first time 😂. It must have indeed been a one off at least for Triebel. Good luck on your project and you have a beautiful rifle there.
Pretty cool
The Austrians had some cartridges based on the X x57 mauser or the 30-06 base but much much longer . Aprox . the length of an H&H case. I thing they were from Peterlongo of Austria
That was (I believe) the 8x68s cartridge.
Excellent post - I'll look for those
8×68 will not fit. I have one and a 6.5 × 68. Same case. There was an American wildcatter who had a whole series of cartridges sharp shoulder moved forward on 06 case. Very similar. Name was Gibbs. Some mention of them in P.O. Ackley's books I think. I had an 8mm Gibbs for several years. Laid low everything I pointed it at. Love your stuff. As for the 71 or 72 Peterlongo cases I used to make those for a friend from 9.3×74 rimmed cases from RWS by turning the rimmed heads to rimless in a lathe. Formed them up trimmed the over length necks and loaded them up. He loved it.
Mike! you are the person to ask this question: Imagine theres a war and your country calls up a militia in defense. You have to bring one rifle. 90% of the time will be spent standing around in cold rain or hot mud, setting the rifle down is just not possible, so it has to either be laid down on a vehicle or on your shoulder; you have to clean it and it has to work in a battle. what rifle do you take?
30-03 brass is longer than 30-06 and could possibly be formed if you could find it (unlikely) 270 Winchester might be a bit longer when formed as its parent case was actually the 30-03.
As is the 280 rem
So funny how you mentioned how it’s hard to think about WHAT you’re about to talk about and HOW you need to express it because I was just thinking how that exactly is always the hardest for me to do when filming a video
Glad you know. : )
Interesting rifle for sure👍
Fantastically great video, as always.
No firearms expert..But in theory, by name Engels, a gunproducer in Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium , Luxemburg, Alsace- Lorraine or Southern Tyrol could be also possible. As i noted, in theory.
I suggest "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges: For Rifles and Handguns" by Ken Howell, and a micrometer, to study the fired round to Identify a parent cartridge. While not perfect, there is no better reference. It is a beautiful rifle, and would do good work on elk and the like. The 30-06 is not the parent case.
Very interesting book - thank you : ) You're right - the 30-06 is what can be made to work - but the longer overall length of the Engels makes things interesting. It'll be great to work it out and go hunting. Thanks as always!
What an interesting cartridge you have . I enjoy good mauser actions my self . I have quite a few in several different calibers. Going by your fire formed case, it's possible it was made from the 9.3×64 Brenneke necked up to .338 caliber . I also have a 338-06, and I compared it to my Brenneke, and it looks to be a match . Now iam not saying 100%, that's it . I would need one of your spent rounds to verify. Judging by what I have, if you add the Brenneke neck and extra length, it looks to be a match . Hope this helps. Here in America, we have more .338 calibers cartridges than I can name . From the 8.6 Blk out , 338 federal , 338-06 , 338 ARC , 338 Winchester magnum, 338 weatherby magnum, 338 Remington ultra mag, 338 Norma magnum, 338 Lapua magnum, 338-378 weatherby magnum, 33 Nosler, 338 Edge, 33 XC I could go on & on not to mention all the wildcat 338 calibers. I hope this helps. Maybe it is the 9.3×64 Brenneke . Thank you for another great video.
I had my own fun over this past year trying to track down a wildcat cartridge called the 416 Whammy. I was able to trace its history and now have load data for it from a more recent form of the wildcat, but will need to have dies made to fit the chamber dimensions.
For those of us true gun guys, the unavailability of ammo is not daunting, but becomes a passion project.
What I have in essence is a model 600 rifle custom built by SSK in a 416 caliber based on the 350 remington magnum case. A short action 400 Whelen if you will.
Amazing - for sure I don't have a Whammy. I'll look it up. Thanks for the note.
@UnitedStatesOfGuns the most current version has been nicknamed the 416 Express. I would like to say thank you for sharing your rifle as well, and look forward to a follow up video when you get the brass sorted out. Would also love to know if the bore of your rifle is a true .338 or a different size.
Love keeping old rifles alive. Thanks again for the wonderful video.
Fascinating
You’re a braver man than I am to mess with wildcat cartridges. Always afraid they’ll blow up.
They are ( Not )dangerous when you follow the rules of load development !
Very nice gun and video. Maybe you ask Mr. Triebel about the caliber. He is a very nice guy. I think he will help you getting information, if you tell him about the gun and who you are.
Hi, Mike. The word "Engels" in the Dutch language and in Afrikaans means "English." The cartridge is therefore .338 English.
Thank you! We're making progress. The gunmaker is Stephan Engel. We'll find out more. Cheers, Mike
It's most likely a German patronymic. From German, it translates to "Angels" probably meaning "Angel's son," similarly to how "Davis" is the shortened form of "Davidson."
That looks similar to the 338 OKH (one of Elmer Keith's wildcats). He made a belted version that I believe was the precursor for the .338 Win Mag. Yours looks similar (with the shoulder moved further forward) but with no belt. Interesting.
Awesome rifle
It’s been my experience, but I read it, I believe, in P.O. Ackley’s book that the benefits of wildcat cartridges exist mostly in the minds of their creators.
Probably true; with some notable exceptions.
It would be interesting to see a video on the best wildcats that never became mass produced. It's probably been done.
This cartridge interests me. There has to be some type of 30 basic brass that could be formed to make it the correct length. I am going to research this a bit and check all my old books to see if any mention of it.
It looks a lot like .338 SABI but even more like 8.5x63 created by Werner Reb and which is marketed in Europe by different manufacturers including Brenneke.
There is an 8.5x63 Magnum but the base case is the 9.3x64 Brenneke which also gave the .376 Steyr and a 6.5x63 Magnum which is a clone of the 264 Winchester for performance.
It’s almost like a Gibbs cartridge with a longer neck
That's a perfect description.
The cartridges of the world books all have case lists by name and dimension.
I don't know much about forming brass but the 300 Win mag may be a start on brass to form.
I have a 35 carmin out of a 375 h&h. It splits the case fire forming with a pistol bullet.
Perhaps a necked up 7x64 brenneke.
Good idea - I'll check
My guess for the missing decapping pin is that they were using berdan primed brass
That's smart - thank you
looks like Lutz Möller had a predecessor as it looks like his (8.5/.338)x64
Beautiful rifle 👌🏻😎
Looks kindof like a .30 Gibbs necked up to 338. Curious if you could make it the same way. Necking it up to 35 whelen then back into the 338 Engels die prior to fire forming so you get a false shoulder. Would eliminate the excessive headspace.
Very nice Mauser Mike. I have studying on the .444 marlin with is a 30-06 straight wall case I was wandering maybe after you necked it down if it would give you enough length?
For sure I didn't think of that. I have .444 - will check
Beautiful rifle 👍🏽
Thank you and Merry Christmas!
Could make a fine cast bullet shooter with that fire formed brass.
It will be interesting to see if anyone knows this wildcat. How much room is there for a longer case? Seems this is like a 338 Norma Magnum in length but not belted. What would be the parent case for this cartridge? One possible solution would be to take some Norma Mag brass and remove the belt on a mini-lathe. Put another way, this cartridge is a lot like looking at the .30-06 like the Americans looked at the 7x57...add a 1/8" and neck it up...
I think that 30-03 necks are a bit longer than 30-06. Hard to find but they are out there.
I’ve got a B Nickel Marburg scope on my BRNO Model 1. It’s an incredible scope.
What are the Proof marks from ) country ) . Their proof house might be able to provide some information .
.338 is a relativelt modern bore (except for the 33 winchester.)
Thank you for showing something that is entirely new to us.
Since the 338-06 rounds are so much shorter and of less case volume,you’re running at substantially less pressure. No reason why you can’t coat them with case lube before firing. They will fireform very easily with little stress on the brass.
looks close to a 338 sherman
The .338-06 or the European engal round is ok but id have a smith to open the camber to the .338 win mag and resize the mag and the bolthead if needed. You might put a little bit money in it and you will have a far better ability with a .338 round thats great for just about anything on feet.
So the fireformed brass is identical to the .338-06 jdj . I think you will find your answers in old RWS catalogs. The fact that the extractor released the cartridge on firing hints that its based on the 9.3x62mm Mauser brass dimensions which has a case head thats about 0.004 inches larger than .30-06 brass. In my vartidges of the world 12th edition, I am seeing 6.5 x65mm RWS ,6.5 x68mm RWS ,8x64mm with S&J bullet diameters of .318 and .323 ,8x68mmS RWS,, 9.3x64mm Brenneke( also in the old RWS catalogs) and 10.75x68mm Mauser . I think these generally are in the direction you should look ,for brass to size up or down to fit that chamber properly. Maybe with fireforming or maybe not. I know 4 thousandths of an inch isn't much ,but its a good hint as to what you need and explains why the '06 brass didn't pull out smoothly. Best of luck! If you ever want to check small bore wildcats and proprietary cartidges , Reeds ammunition ,ssk industries and James Calhoun mfg all deal with sub 22 caliber stuff. (19 badger ,.14/222 eichelberger magnum,.12 cooper ccm and .10 eichelberger LR are examples) . You can also get kits from Calhoun for setting up cz527 rifles in a few .19 caliber rounds if you desire. They have all the stuff needed to shoot .19 with .