So many people say termies have t5 I want to make a photoshopped data sheet with that just to fuck with people. Not to use in games but just to post online. Do a little Tzeentch tom foolery if you will
@@armybeast1823 I forgot what edition it was, but someone actually did that once, and got a bunch of people kicked out of an official GW event for using fake codexes. They had pirated their rules, and the rules weren't correct.
One time my buddy made forty 4+ saves in a row as mobs of my ork boys tried to kill his captain holding an objective at the center of the board. I rolled his dice and came up with a bunch of 1s, 2s, and 3s. Turns out he wasn't cheating, we were just witnessing something rarer than winning the lottery twice after surviving your car being struck by lightning both times on your way to buy a ticket. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
To be fair, one of the safest places you can be during a storm is inside your car, since a bolt of lightning is conducted into the tires. The car will even continue to run afterwards.
@@ShogunFRIEND Thats a myth. The tires do tidily squat. Its the metal shell of the car that actually conducts the lightning into the ground and it dissipates.
@@terranaxiomuk lol yeah there's always those stories everyone has of some big, beefy dude just getting merk'd by some nobody. I once fired a bunch of lascannons and plasma guns into a demon prince with one wound left, and he made all of his invulnerable saves after I missed a bunch of shots. Then, one of my scouts hopped over a fence and killed him with a bolt pistol. Had a tactical squad wiped out by a carnifex that was contesting a table corner. Last turn of the game, there's only a marine with a power axe left (not even a sergeant!). Carnifex missed all its attacks the turn before and on turn six, the lone marine managed to land all his wound rolls to cut through the carnifex and kill it before it could attack back (initiative 4 vs. initiative 2).
The cheating that upset me the most in my experience of Warhammer was one guy who played an entire proxy list and did not explain to me what the proxies were. I was brand new to the game so I accepted playing his proxy army (which was Red Corsairs but he used models of loyalist marines with their heraldry crossed out in different color schemes to represent different unit). So when I went to shoot at his green tactical marines I learned that they were plague marines and as a result far more resilient to my bolters (this was 7th edition when they were super hard to kill). Later I learned that this was the guy who would bring 7th ed Eldar bike spam into new players’ first games and would refuse to tell people what was in his transports and now I won’t play him anymore.
This is why I have a problem with 3D printed armies. One or two 3D printed units? Fine whatever. But when the whole army is bullshiz since they’re not an official unit, you can’t tell what they are, and whats to say your opponent isn’t gonna swap rules on you.
@@LinkiePup That can happen with kitbashed shit too, but not to the same extent. I own legit, 3d printed, and kitbashed/scratch built models. As long as everyone knows what is what going into the game it has never been an issue.
@@TheAtomicSpoon Still, I don’t think its cool having 3D printed models. More power to you I suppose: but IN THE CASE OF THE COMMENT I WAS REPLYING TO: 3D Printed Proxy Models are an issue.
I remember one of the most heinous slow plays I’ve had was during the Adepticon team tournament. It was our match right after the lunch break and they gave us extra time to get to our tables for anyone running late. Well our opponents didn’t show up in time at all and the T.O.’s kept saying to just wait a little longer. The other team finally showed up about 30-40 minutes into the game round. The T.O. let them play. They then went about taking as long as possible to take out their army and tell us what all it was which they had I believe plague marines and Nurgle demons. By the time they got everything set up and THEY were ready there was like 1 hour left in the battle round. Their first turn was extremely slow and involved them moving onto objectives and deep striking a model onto the center objective which since it was turn 1 our armies weren’t anywhere near it. Then after turn 1 they stopped the game and said that since there was only 30 minutes left that THEY didn’t think that we could finish a turn 2 and they wanted to call the game there with them having a victory for being on 3 objectives to our 2. We called the T.O. over and told them what was going on. They thankfully sided with us and pointed out that the other team had done all this intentionally to only allow 1 turn and that we would be allowed at least a turn 2 despite their protests. Thankfully we were able to kill the stuff off the center objective and at least get a draw which they were very angry about. This story always makes me annoyed when I remember it.
Honestly I feel like terrain is the most confusing part of this game. It's somewhat confusing with the rules but also hard for new players to make a well designed map. I'd love to see a terrain guide!
Yeah, the 9e terrain rules are... not great. Confusingly-named-and-worded universal special rules in an edition whose core rules are otherwise so simple that nobody even brings the BRB to games
There should be templated terrain in the Chapter Approved missions, IMO. It just makes sense to give players a consistent set of terrain, and allows people to develop their strategies reliably, instead of having the terrain set periodically hose or favor you. Especially when you're new at the game, playing a new army, or trying to learn a new mission pack, it throws a massive wrench in the learning curve to have that type of strategic inconsistency. I'd always advocate for getting good at one thing, and learning the abstracts from the process of getting good at that one thing.
@@CyrodiilCome why not? My group started playing about a year ago, we went right to matched play because list building with points just makes sense, and it's what the game is balanced around. It's fun to play all the different missions in the mission packs, too. I think it's pretty common.
@@CyrodiilCome I mean that's just wrong. I started in 2019 and my first game was match played. Why would anybody use PL? It's not an easier system to use, it's worse balanced, and it's not what your average gamer uses to play the game. TTS is going to be many players' entry point to 40k at this point, not tabletop play.
I'm glad you brought up the fact that some older players have forgotten more rules in 40k than most know. I'm guilty of this, I mix up editions all the fucking time lol
@@nekrataali Exactly! Skittarii codex in 7th got axe in less than 6months ! Vottan a new army comes out and at the same time only most other factions got a codex.
Me and my mate used to do overwatch in our friendly games before it was a thing as we thought it was bs that melee units can just yolo and delete entire squads. We did it on a 5+ though.
I cheated idiotically because I didn’t read the rule correctly. As a guard player, I used the first rank fire and second rank fire (8th edition) all the time, I thought the order gave all rapid 1 into a rapid fire 2, so I though the plasma weapon got it too, soon did I learn from a another guard player that I was doing it wrong, so I want apologize to the blood angels player that always bested me.
our game store has had to put dice towers and dice trays on each table. it made some people go to other stores... at those stores they did the same thing. Now everyone in our area has towers and trays.
Dice trays should be mandatory. The towers are just too noisy for me, you get 4-5 games going in a echoey room and you cant hear yourself think let a lone what your opponent is saying.
@@lordmalal if you have the dice tray in an easily accessible spot, this isn't a concern. Also, it greatly reduces the number of dice that knock over models, moving terrain to pick up dice, cocked dice, etc. it's been a godsend for me
Absolutely. I like to insist on using the tray for all rolls, the only exception being advance and charge rolls. I like to make those next to the unit that's doing the thing, so it's not ambiguous
The fact that there's entire videos on this sort of thing just reinforces my decision to only play GarageHammer with my pals rather than finding strangers on a whim
@@pkswarroomI really doubt it. Unless it’s a narrative tournament there’s no fun to be had against the sweatiest meta lists of terminators, tanks and elves yet again
same. tournament players take this stuff way too seriously to make it fun. For too many, the armies are merely tokens on a board for various meta rules. Completely ruin any sense of immersion, narrative. with that said, you can have non-competitive events. Narratives are great!
@@pkswarroomI've been to magic events. I learned something simple. Events are fun if you like events. If you like the game then events are just cash grabs that ruin the experice. Rather get a new set and just leave rather then participate in the event
Tournaments can be really fun and social events but just like any sport or game there will be room for cheating or gamesmanship.My advice for any warhammer tornament would be to know the rules ,and to know your own army and codex like the back of your hand to save time. And to also have a basic knowledege of other teams rules ,else you will fall into all the traps.Also dont bring a fluffy list to a tournament if you want any chances of winning ,just like turning up to a boxing match after partyting all night you will get battered and not enjoy yourself.
My brothers cancer came back, and it was bad enough to need chemo (testicular, one removed and then the cancer moved to his lymph nodes). He took up 40k after a hiatus, to keep himself busy. I took it up as well, to bond with him and share an interest. We play with our own interpreted rules, never about winning and just about the fun of the game. He’s doing great now, full remission as of late. 40k helped us bond and I don’t care if I lose a million times against him.
I had a similar experience where my dad got cancer, whom had played back in rouge trader and early 2nd edition and he was getting back into the law which subsequently inspired me to get into 40k. Luckily he has fully recovered now.
I played what was supposed to be a fun, silly christmas tournament. Came up against a guy who had a reputation for being good. Unfortunately for him, I am extremely good, from playing so many games, at judging distances. He constantly kept giving himself +1 - 3 inch extra movement on all his units. In the 2nd turn I made note of where his units were, then measured where he had put them. He had moved his hive tyrant a whopping 23 inches to get to where he wanted to go, with a 2inch advance. And his warriors an extra inch or 2. I pointed this out and he was really annoyed, but promptly moved his stuff back. He also rolled behind terrain, picking up dice really quickly. I had to make it really obvious I was aware by leaning over the table to look behind the terrain which also really annoyed him. Couple that with deliberate slow playing, (they had 1 unit left, and spent 6 minutes deliberating) watching the game timer count down. They ended up winning the thing. Funny that.
@@daniel_fyr2515 There are one or two guys like this at every tournament, and usually they will win it, or score highly. Just have to keep your eyes out for the signs. I'll take any kind of personality, gamer rage, sulking, stupidity. Anything. But I cant tolerate cheats. Most people are great though.
@@daniel_fyr2515 practice playing on a chess clock, and use it. This protects you from slow play by guaranteeing you get half the time to make whatever moves you need to secure points, and is just a nice reminder of how much time is in the round. Introduce it as "I have a bad sense of time, this helps me stay on track". Explain how it works (decisions and dice rolls you make are on your time and vice-versa), and genuinely offer advice, like if you are on turn 3 with 20 minutes left, both players will score more by focusing on moving models rather than shooting (aside from that handful of critical moments) When your opponent measures a model's move, put your finger at the end of the ruler. This is helpful in general as it keeps track of where the model ends up for non-cheaty players, and puts a check on the cheaty ones.
My own experience with Warhammer is very limited (just a few guys meeting in a small game store back in the 90thies) . So i'm a bit naive about modern wargames. A bit of cheating for a laugh among mates is one thing. But I'm curious why people cheat with something as risky as loaded dice. is the Price money high enough to attract professional scammers, or is it the same a-holes who want to win no matter what .
@@spiritualanarchist8162 Just crappy people. Also if your friends are cheating you, they are crap friends. They should be the ones least likely to do it. Loaded dice aren't that common, but they do crop up. Sometimes people want to use their "special" dice. I just say no.
The funniest cheat that I have ever witnessed was at a 9th Edition tournament here in Germany (1500 points). So there was this guy and he played necrons and of course he brought a nightbringer to the table. I played blood angels on this day but I also collect and play necrons as well... so the game took its turns and we came to his first movement phase in wich he moved his c'tan 12". Me knowing it is not able to that normally but he was like very convinced that he could do that so I just let him go with it. His second movement phase he all of a sudden moved 14" so I told him "dude he can't do that!" But he was like "yeah that's one of his c'tan powers" so I wanted to see his codex (me obviously knowing that he was trying to cheat) and he then started to call the ref on me because quote: " this dick is trying to steal my codex from me!" Ceep in mind that the dude looked like he was 40 or something. Yeah funny thing is that I tabled him 4th turn and left him with a "gg"...
I play in the same meta as the guy who got caught cheating on camera and can confirm a lot of the top ITC ranked players do shit like this all the time. He was banned from major ITC events but was still allowed to in local RTT events. He now films himself and his dice rolls but if he doesn’t do it infront of me I make him reroll.
Just refuse to play at game stores. The ammount if crap that happens in my local stores was stupid. Models getting tossed by other players, awkward passive aggressive attitudes.. the way people would fall over themselves to talk to a female that walks in trying to help her pick a army. It was comical but sad..
There used to be a guy who came to one of the local gaming stores and played 40K, and he would roll his fists full of dice and take a quick look then scoop them all up “OK, that was 22 successes.” Like no way the average person could determine how many 4ups were in that load of dice in the 1-2 seconds they were on the table.
When I played, I would make people roll in the open and ONLY pick up Missed hit dice. Because I played with a guy who would pick up Hits, and he seemed to hit a LOT. So I eventually noticed. We aren't friends anymore
It's basic etiquette to remove dice that fail. I'm surprised he had anyone to play with at all. It's a basic habit, especially in a game like 40k where you're rolling like 20, 50, or 100+ dice in one go.
I'm very new, and I've started bringing flash cards for different rules and things my army can do so I have them on hand. I usually play Thousand Sons, and I always forget "All is Dust", "Mutated Beyond Reason", and just my marines having Objective Secured. Saves me a lot of Codex reading while I play!
I've played vs the loaded dice. Found where he bought them on eBay and reported him...he left positive feedback from his email address for the purchase. Played against TONS of stretchy tape measures Played vs a guy who just zoomed his units wherever he wanted without a tape measure... during a tournament. I called him on it. Eventually his cheating almost led to a fist fight and T.O.s were called. He was they type of happy friendly cheater but when he started to lose, despite the cheating, his temperament went bad and he started tossing his own minies. I played vs a LOT of people who make things up in their own codex. I generally just bought every codex and rule and brought my own copies to the tournaments. 34 years of Warhammer. Seen it all here.
I remember a recent local GT I played in. My opponent was a Chaos Knights player with 3 big fellas and 4 war dogs on a hotdog deployment mission. He did not want to tell me what his army did during our pre deployment talk and was adamant about it. I was fielding Blood Angels with 1x10 Death Company with power swords and inferno pistols, 2x5 thunder hammers on the field, and 2x7 Sanguinary Guard with axes and bolters in deep strike. I did not want to argue with him anymore, so I just told him "Fine, I won't tell you what I can do. But if I go first I will table you by turn 2, if not I'll table you turn 3". So I went first, killed 2 big knights with the death company alpha strike (chapter master rerolls, blood chalice for assault doctrine buff, 1 with 10 inferno pistols, and 1 on the charge), and crippled him so my other DC and Sang Guard pretty much just cleaned house by turn 2. Funny thing is that he called a TO multiple times contesting my rules, and when he got wiped, he just walked out of the tourney lol. Not necessarily a cheat, but a rotter nonetheless!
I actually take steps to teach my friends to play 40k through TTS. I start by not including the terrain rules because there's a lot to learn but on their third game I introduce some of the terrain + rules and give them a chart with the rules because I find that throwing all the rules at once at a new player is hard for them.
@@jimriggs5988me and my buddy are learning the game and that’s we’re doing. Next game we’re adding strategems and I already know both of us are going to fuck it up.
There's a Sisters player I know who is always cheating dice rolls. Pre-rolling dice, then saving them to substitute for rolls later in the round! I suppose loyalty to the Emperor will do that...
They aren’t loyal to the emperor, they’re craven and honourless. He was playing brides of the emperor, not sisters and like vandire he should probably have his ass kicked for that
Another one is dice rolling technique. There’s a reason why your dice have to hit the back wall when you’re shooting craps - if you pour the dice out of your hand without rolling it you can fairly consistently land it on what you want. Lost a game of monopoly that way a while ago.
Tell me if you've seen this one: "Rolling" dice. We used to play with a guy who played with comically large dice. Like, 1/2-3/4" wide dice. When he "rolled" them, he would palm them such that he could pick them straight up, then clasp them in his hands such that they would rattle in his hands as he shook them around but not really move much otherwise, and then just set them right back down rather than throwing or rolling them.
I had a mate (who has sadly passed on, now) I played Fantasy against, regularly. He was an older guy in his fifties (I was mid-thirties at the time), didn’t have many friends, but was obsessed with gaming. He was always able to get the charge off, be in range for shooting, or just be out of my charge range. Now some of this, I put down to him being a more experienced player - he had been playing for decades, as opposed to my years. And sometimes, this was the case. But most times, he was cheating. We mostly played on his table, at his home. It wasn’t quite standard size, due to space considerations, but we both had the dimensions down pat. I didn’t mind, though, as we weren’t playing for sheep stations, he was great company, and, when I did win a game, I knew I had played a blinder. I don’t think he knew I knew he was cheating, and sometimes it was pretty obvious. But, again, I didn’t mind, because, otherwise, he was a nice guy, and I think winning games was the one bright thing in his life. One day, though, I started the game tired, and was having a bad week. He was playing chaos, and I was playing my shooty Wood Elves. I had deliberately set up my front line to be just out of charge range for the second turn, as he marched up towards them. Still, somehow, he managed to get several charges off in turn two… I called him out on it, and he looked genuinely shocked, and upset. He tried to cover, by saying I must have misjudged my positioning, but we both knew that was not the case. We reset, and started over, as all that had happened was he had moved up, and I had killed an average amount of his troops with my arrows. We never spoke of this again, and we continued to play for several years after this, until I moved, and we hardly played again. The funny thing is, we both played in local tournaments - that is how I met him. Turns out we lived a few doors down from each other. He taught me a lot about the game, and made me a better player. I faced him in tournaments, and watched him play many tournament games. He never intentionally cheated in any tournament game I had the chance to play against him, or watch. He was a really good player. I don’t know why he always cheated when we played casually. Maybe he was trying to make me a better player? Maybe he thought he needed to cheat to beat me - not likely? As I said, he was really good. I am average, at best. Maybe he enjoyed cheating, but was honest enough not to do it at tournaments? He is gone, now, so I will never know…
I knew a guy like this. Basically grew up playing him at 40k, Fantasy and Necromunda. As well as playing with him in AD&D. Hideous cheater. Sometimes pretty blatantly (yes, even in AD&D). Genuinely a brilliant player, otherwise. Whenever he entered tournaments, he usually placed - and there were never any complaints.
I was crafting a response that I thought would be great, turns out it didn't really add anything, so instead I'll just say: thanks for posting, explaining, and also quantifying how often it has happened to you, it was helpful.
I had to play this one guy at our local small tournaments over and over because it was like 10-16 players. The guy would go extreme WYSIWYG to try to disqualify your army loadouts. The one I remember the most was him going after my marines for grenades. The marines I had didn’t have grenades on every single model and he would always call the T.O. over and claim that since not all my models had grenades they could not use them. The same with me saying my Sargent had a melta bomb he would say “I don’t see a melta bomb glued on that model, so he can’t be equipped with one”. This guy constantly would pull crap like this.
This happened to an Eldar-playing mate of mine, specifically with the grenades thing. I was always pretty sure that 'nades were an exception to the WYSIWYG rules, but apparently not as the TO at the time sided with the guy.
Did he also call them out for not having ammo packs, so could only shoot once? Have a look at how many marines have extra ammo on their model. Almost none do.
I cheated at a local rtt by mistake I had an extra unit of assault intcerssors cause I had left them in my carry case from an earlier game in the week and I know all my units data sheets by heart at this point so didn't look at my list until after the trounament to see what I could do better. I don't think much would have changed considering the outcome of the matches lost 2 won 1. Still feel bad about it tho.
I've seen where a person submitted a list at a local tournament, then found out he had brought multiple lists to use depending on who he played against. Each list had minor substitutions on them so as not to draw to much suspicion.
@codypatton8802 not that I've ever seen, every tournament I've attended, you submit 1 list and your models needed to represent that list having the items and wargear listed.
I ran a Necron silver tide reanimation list for a tournament in 9th edition. We're talking 3 reanimators, reanimation orbs and lords, a ton a warriors and scarabs etc. I also played against a DRUKARI PLAYER (this was back when they were considered overbuffed). For the whole game I was being killed but then reanimating and taking objectives back, right at the end when I was about to win, they called over the TO to ask about how my reanimation works, and the TO said you are not allowed to daisy chain revive your models. Despite showing my rules and multiple sources online confirming that you can daisy chain, they refused to accept it and ruled me out for doing so (this was the first round of a 3 round tournament) and gave the win to the other player. I later found out they're friends and play at the same store regularly. I immediately quit the tournament and left . I then sold all my 40k armies and moved to skirmish gaming instead, and I have enjoyed the hobby way more ever since.
Jesus Christ, that sucks to hear. Really sorry to hear you sold your stuff too. Sounds like the tournament deserved to be shut down and those two people deserved to be banned from all tournaments.
@@nickkohlmann For what it's worth, my act of walking out sparked a lot of discussion in the local community, and the guy who ran the tournament has basically been shunned and can't start one again. The store that hosted the tournament also lost a lot of business. But to be honest I'm glad it happened because I really don't like the core mechanics of 40k that was kinda stuck in the investment fallacy of it. Now I've moved onto game systems I actually enjoy so it was a blessing in the end.
One of my old roommates who got me into 40k in the first place in the early days of 4th edition cheated quite regularly. Back then you had to guess the range of your shots if you were using artillery. And since he was a Guardsman through and through he had multiple Basilisks. I used to wonder why he always guessed so well until my other roommate told me years later that he would put his measuring tape down next to the table whitout retracting it during my turn so he would magically know the correct distances during his turn while he was holding his retracted measuring tape in his hands to prove he wasn't cheating. I don't know how I never caught on but nowadays it's a good laugh. The one time he tried cheating during our REALLY big 6 people apocalypse event it killed the game though.
I hate cheaters, but equally up there is the min/max power gamers, who seem to always be prep playing their tournament list against casual players, and then proceed to never actually enter tournaments, because his ego cant handle the idea of someone beating his "list" that was copied from the internet anways. I do not like that guy.
I have had that when I was younger I had a guard army get tabled turn 2 because the guy looked at my list and made a hyper competitive list. This was a casual game and I was like 14 and he was like early to mid 20s
My personal favourite cheat was the guy who tried to pass off another famous painters work as his own. That's bad enough but this guy did it in a Golden Demon contest in Auustralia.
As a new player to the game I hope to not cheat, but the game is so massive and there are so many rules that I’m sure (in the two games I’ve played so far) that I’ve bent or broken some. I’ve also probably also left out some of my core army rules and didn’t play to their advantage.
Learning isn't cheating! Even long time players get things wrong all the time. It's cheating when someone, somehow, always gets it wrong to their advantage and decides to not learn from it...
Worst case of cheating I've experienced is showing up for a league match, opponent knows what army I'm running as so they know I'm running 90% melee. They setup the table prior to my arrival, and setup the terrain so the middle of the board was wide open. There was no ability to jump from terrain piece to terrain piece, they setup the flanks with LOS pieces only so there were no flanks to move down...it was just awful. I told them we needed to reorganize the terrain or I wasn't playing. They didn't want to, but eventually they said yes when I told them this was cheating and I'd be reporting it to the organizers.
So there’s a kid at the store I frequent, who consistently cheats by “misremembering” rules, making up rules, rolling dice out of his opponent’s sight, bombarding his opponent with information and “advice”, and moving his units without measuring (effectively giving himself an extra 2” movement on average). Not to mention it’s basically impossible for anyone to remember which one of his chaos knights has which relic, warlord trait, etc. as his models were varied, rarely WYSIWYG, and proxied (mortarion used as a war dog). Because he was getting a bit of a reputation for being questionable things, when I played my last 2 games against him, I made him recite his list to me, thoroughly go through each of his traits, relics and abilities, and repeat which unit had what rule over the course of the battle. This was so I actually knew which unit to prioritise, be aware of, avoid, etc. I also made him roll his dice in front of me and used crystal markers to mark his unit’s maximum possible movement each turn. First game, he concedes on turn 3 after a rather one-sided battle, in which I didn’t allow him to cheat. 2nd game, he concedes after the first battle round, and tells me “I’m not going to play games with you anymore”. 😂 To anyone new to the game, or on a losing streak: Please, don’t cheat in Warhammer. Throwing away your honour for a “victory” you achieved via underhanded tactics and tricks is not worth it. You gain nothing from it, and people mark you as bell end.
Jeez.....it sounds like you're a Neckbeard Troll😮 Use the cheating to teach him a lesson.....make him a better person rather than just being a utter fool who bullies kids 😅
Played a guy a while ago (just a friendly) he managed to inflict 88 wounds on my knights in the first turn. I never actually saw a single roll he made.
The first big tournament my friends and I attended, my friend played against a Knights player that talked too fast through his steps and used Sigmar terms to make everything confusing. He also claimed that the extra wound from Mechanicus means that the stat brackets change too, which is total horseshit. My friend didn't call the judge cause the guy was a close friend of the TOs
@@viktordickinson7844 mostly be was being a prick. Vaping in my friend's face too after being asked to stop. Just a general a-hole that got away with it for being friends with the TO
One cheater I remember playing, it was a casual game of 8th and he asked to proxy an army that he was thinking of starting. He had a army list and for casual games I'm okay with proxies so said sure just tell me what unit is proxy for what when you deploy. All was fine until turn 3, it was all equal and he declared an shooting attack with a unit that when deployed didn't have the guns he was rolling for. The unit with those guns were actually on the other side of the table and out of range. We debated until a TO from the nearby table came over (we wasn't taking part in the tournament) and when the TO checked the list he confirmed what I knew. The guy got angry and just left
@@martinberggren6328 Probably someone who's a TO just in the shop hanging out we had a guy at my LGS like that when I had any 40k questions l'd be like "hey what's this rule again"
Spot on. This crap was going on 25 years ago and killed all interest I had in playing. Just checked out a new local scene and it's AMAZING how well everyone is playing along.
As for a cheating thing, I have to call myself out, I play custodes and they change how a the dawn eagle jetbike relice works, it used to give a 3 up inv which was great for the teaching game against my friend I didn’t bother to check if the relic had changed till a few days later.
Ive accidentally used Dense Cover rules instead of Heavy Cover rules when using my Broodlord's Synaptic Imperative ability in my last game. Found out later about that goof, but it's also needlesly confusing what the various "cover" types do
If it makes you feel better, my gaming group misread the cover rule for 10th edition, and until a few days ago, we were giving -1 to hit, and +1 to armor saves for it instead of just +1 to save to a best of 3+.
Recently had a guy blatantly lie about rules for his Praetor with HH 2.0.. because he would have been instantly killed. He had been whining the whole game when stuff didn't go his way, and when I murdered his warlord he straight up lied about the model's toughness. He also told me the wrong information several other times with influenced my targeting decisions. It sucked. It was a friendly game but definitely was not as fun as it could have been
Once I forgot to measure before shooting, and my unit was just out of 24". After shooting etc, we realised and thought no big deal we just rolled back the issue. My opponent put a few of his dead squad members back. At the end of my opponents turn I specifically asked rather loud if that particular unit moved. He state's no they need to remain for rapid fire. Come my opponents shooting turn, he wanted to shoot back His guns were also 24", and lo and behold some of his models were within 24" now. I told him how can you be closer without moving, and he got mad xD
The sneakiest thing I have ever heard about, was someone with a custom made measuring tape that has an additional Milimeter in each centimeter bracket (so it had 11 marks instead of 10 between the numbers. The inches were adjusted too, so a 6" movement was actually a 6.2" movement.
@@AndrewFishman My response to them would be "Fine, but if you want me to consider the model laying down for my line of sight, then you need to consider it the exact same for yours." I don't mind a bit of variety in armies by making some models have different poses, I do it myself. But I always make it clear beforehand that I consider all my models to be standing for such things, and will happily replace lying/kneeling ones with spare standing ones if requested.
As a chaos knight player the one thing that I have seen the most and I hate the most is counter listing. I've had it more times than I would like where the opponent said we can exchange lists. Saw that I was running a chaos knight army. And said they needed to make minor adjustments to their list. Only to come back with a full list of anti-tank vehicle and tarpit units
The cheating wasn't the bad part of it all, it was that the cheaters were 'friends of the shop" so to call a TO/Judge over was really just putting a shame counter on yourself. Most times, the TO favored the cheater and then YOU'D get a rep for being a whiner. Yeah...probably a little too specific but it's why I and a few other honest players stopped going to our "F"LGS. Upside, it got me back into solo tabletop gaming and now I play cooperative 40k/KT with some homebrew mechanics. It's actually like playing a game of Warhammer Quest but with your actual armies...well...Kill Teams.
Sounds like a place to not support. I'm not the typical player and I know I have a bit more of an intimidating air about me so I don't get the shaming but then it turns into oh you don't know the rules or you are a bully. We got a lot of old men who think Warhammer is theirs and you shouldn't be allowed to play unless it's your whole life. Sad dudes really
The most heinous cheat i ever saw was in a casual game of 6th edition at my LGS A relatively new tyranid player was playing a hormagaunt spam list, basically a bog pile of trash infantry. His army was fine, then I as a 3d party noticed that his opponent was playing Gray knights(the most elite army at the time). He just casually showedup with a 3000 pnt + list in a 1500 pnt casual game.
I have made countless rule blunders in 40k because yes it is incredibly complex, unnecessarily so, literally have not had a single rule blunder in Warmachine, the rules are just so well layed out and easy to learn, just a clean quality ruleset
Had a fun one a few years back. They apparently printed their army builder list to PDF, then edited the PDF without changing points totals to add in all the special weapons, so they'd paid no points for having every squad fully upgraded. Came out to like 400 extra points, and it took us actually going through and redoing the list to be sure.
Had a small friendly tourney run by a longtime friend of mine. Been my first "tourney" in almost a decade and was invited to "get back into" the hobby. My first opponent kept "forgetting" to do something, and without asking, said "I would have done this, so I'm going to do it anyway" (like move, or do "this" in the command phase). When I tried to do the same (i would at least ask prior since it was etiquette), he would make a fuss about it, saying, "yeeeeahhh buuutt....", and make arguments against it. ultimately, I only got one of those "mulligans". He also tried to take advantage of me by bringing in reinforcements onto an objective and claiming that he took control of it (even it was out of phase), and argued, "well in the next turn, i would have gotten it anyway". had he claimed the objective, he apparently would have gotten x2 the points, and would have won easily. ultimately in the end, I told him to just roll off on who the "winner" is, and I beat him. so, he "lost", and I felt bitter. I threw my second match and got out of the tourney. If this is how the new group was like, I didn't want to be a part of the stupidity and waste my time.
Had a buddy who did quick rolling and then grabbed the dice before anyone could see and just claimed the number. DND, Warhammer didn’t matter he was quick draw McGraw when rolling and scooping dice.
Regarding dice, even when playing for fun among friends we always said that dice have to be rolled out in the open and rolls have to be verified by your opponent. When we were just starting out we would even give the reason for a re-roll "the weapons allows a re-roll on ones " etc.
I played vs this guy that really didn’t want his scarab swams to die. We had dice as wound markers and he would make his role close to them then pick up all the dice including wound marker, then later would move but not move the wound marker. I kept an eye on that and soon he tried to pick the wound marker dice up as if it was just a spilled dice. Other stuff too… was pretty tedious so the next game I brought the most op list I could to finish it quickly
I've only ever played 1 game of 40k so far but me and my little brother booked a beginners session at our local GW store, staff were amazing and we really enjoyed ourselves, however.... there was a part where i was winning comfortably but to make it more fun for my brother and myself in turn i let him off with some small things like a couple of moral checks and letting his Abbadon make his charge despite being an inch off... the staff thought it was good as it dragged the game out abit more and let us enjoy it more..... well one of the people whi happened to be browsing in the shop at the time were not happy at all, saying it is not in the rules, the game can be brutal so tough luck to my brother, i wouldn't stand for that if i was playing... blah blah blah.... really infuriating and petty 🙄
The biggest spike in cheating in my experience was when models with multiple wounds became commonplace in some armies instead of limited to only heroes and large models. When there's a whole squad with each model having multiple wounds, it's incredibly easy to fudge things in "spreading the wounds out" more times than there actually are wounds in the unit, or assigning multiple taken wounds to a smaller number of models when it does come time to take casualties. Dice markers for wounds on bases can always "accidentally" get nudged over or disassociated with their specific models, so even legitimately it makes it all very hard to track and easy for people to cheat.
I use a dice tray in casual games and we share the same dice. Definitely helps with keeping the dice roll cheating down because after a few games of cheating it gets old quick. Movement cheating still happens from time to time but I've noticed it's usually a honest mistake than a cheat but there's always 'that guy' out there.
This is what I experienced when I played WHFB a fair few years back: Dice with gothic text numbers that were unclear, except to the guy whose dice they were. Same person for club game never seemed to bother with written army lists. Changing a character name or type Costing up an army list for Warhammer FB but but not adding in the cost of the included magic items
Same, bought a large rectangular dice tray that's accessible from both sides from the table to avoid stray dice etc. If you don't want to make the rolls into my dice try, you are more than welcome to roll in your own dice tray, as long as it's on the table. This all started when my wife rolled 29 4+'s out of 32 dice when I was attacking her Great Unclean One. Twice in the same game.
Cheating is usually most prevalent at the highest of levels in any game. Not all high level and tournament players are cheaters, but they are more likely to do it because "I worked hard and deserve the win" and so on.
Another story Opponent has turn 1 A unit is deployed right at the edge of the deployment zone. 5" movement + 3" advance. I remeasure after his movement His unit was more than 9,5" from the deployment I asked him how do you move 9.5" from deployment with 8" of movement He got mad
Yeah, those dudes are sh*t heads, always call out my friend and if people get mad immediately that's a tactic used to get you to back down and that means they know exactly what they did
My best friend once intentionally brought 2000pnts to a 1500pnt game. In the same game he was vector striking with his hive tyrant, pivoting and moving like 3 times a movement phase, hitting the rear armor (actually hits side armor), was refusing to keep track of his wounds on his models with dice (said it was "ridiculous") and I would have to constantly watch and be on top of his dice rolls because he'd for example score two wounds with three dice, pick up all his dice and say "make three saves." I still play 40k with this guy 10 years later, but back then right after high school he was a terrible alcoholic and was in a bad place in life and he was just impossible to play with. I still beat him because I was playing Necrons right after the Wardcron codex came out, so there's probably another reason our games were BS.
When I got my first army done I was just so excited to show off (I played Tau and all my friends hate them) and I ended up beating my head against the wall trying to beat the custodes player, and eventually I started picking up more hits than I had. I still lost and nobody noticed but to this day I still have a bad taste in my mouth. Cheating isnt even as fun as losing honestly, its just stressful cause you put friendships on the line over plastic soldiers
Rules should be EBooks...so if you have a rule question and you want to confirm you just pull up the EBook, type said rule into the search bar and immediately get your answer, with any sort of modifications/additional information easily being linked to from there
My partner didn't cheated, but I learned to play Necrons since 7th edition and he got to play the game at 9th, so I did use 9th edition rules with him. The point is, I started noticing how his Space Marines were really killing my guys easily, even if I rolled dice and got 5 or 6 out of the 8 he killed, then I started to go over the 9th edition codex to corroborate his rolls and learned by surprise, he thought I wanted to play 7th so used 7th edition rules for his Space Marines (I didn't knew early because I avoid imperium as the plague) It was a chuckle anyways. Then with 10th edition some numbers scrambled on my behalf and the most important was the leadership and the change of some units like Skorps, we realized at our 5th match that I been using their old 8" movement and damage sheets as well as attacking with the plasmacite, same with Deathmarks. But ny favorite instance of him deliberately and I letting him cheat was when he pulled out his 1800pts army when I just wanted to play a chill little game and only brought about 1000pts, mind you a gladiator and Roboute Guilliman in there as long as shitton of intercessors and bikes. Food for my squads, the deathmarks planted on the far back and the two units of scarabs scrubbing away the life of his vehicles. He's bad at the game yet but I still try to teach him where he failed, things like putting all units exposed or wasting their Command Points on Re-Rolls for 3 dice out of the 20 instead of granades or overwatchs.
other people: Oh nyo, you forgot light cover one time... Me and my friends constantly forgetting terrain rules for the first 4 turns: "well, we fucked that up..."
Before I got my dice tray I often wondered if I had shitty weighted dice that always rolled low because they’d slide across the table rather than rolling, not sure why but seeing the dice roll in the dice tray makes me more accepting that I just have rubbish luck.
I have the opposite issue with Transhuman, I tend to forget units that are primaris and can use that rule (I use a lot of firstborn and a few primaris)
WYSIWYG is the biggest barrier to tournaments. Cheating is completely unacceptable, however, if I make clear that this guy has a plasma gun and maintian that through the games, I should bot have to actually have that guy have a plasma gun, especially with the way GW stacks their boxes of models. You need multiple boxes just to field the unit you want to field with the guns they should be bearing. This is especially true in this day of single pose models. Look at the Ork Boyz. How many boxes of Boyz are you reasonably expected to buy to build a max strength shoota squad with only 2 shoota models per box? 15? Or is it reasonable to nominate that the slugga boys are also shootas and thus reduce it to 3 boxes required? WYSIWYG can get fucked at that point.
I had an opponent when i first started overcharge his plasma rifles every time but rolled the dice with his bolters. I didn't think about it for my first couple games. It wasn't until i watched him play against somebody that knew better that I realized he had been blatantly cheating against me for a couple games. Never played with him again
Man, I really don't want to play competitively. Been in this for 12-13 years and I constantly hear about cheaters where in fair game, I've never had someone intentionally cheat against me ever. General rule: Make sure both players have access to knowledge needed of their opponent's army/special rules and weapons, make sure terrain and setup is not heavily in advantage for a single player, roll your dice in a way that everyone can see what you do, and most importantly: If someone asks you about what you just did, what unit is what and what special rule was what again, give them the information needed and DON'T LIE to them. If you've shown people the profile and special rules of a unit/weapon and they forget about it again and therefore undererstimate it, that happens. That's on them. But don't intentionally withhold vital information from your opponent when they literally asked for it. They should at least be allowed to know what equipment you have on your units, instead of you in the worst case deciding what has what based on the situation you're in, changing it mid-game.
Pretending cheaters are rampant to find a reason not to play competitively is weird. By all means, avoid min maxing if you don't enjoy it. But don't make things up.
@@pkswarroom Neither did I pretend anything nor did I make anything up; where are you coming from here? Like, what? What kind of a weird response is that?
@pkswarroom All I said was that I constantly hear about cheaters in competitive. I never said that there ARE a mass of cheaters there, nor did I say that I have myself EXPERIENCED a ton of cheaters there. I was simply expressing a sentiment many in this comment section have expressed: That it can be a problem. And it is one of multiple reasons I personally don't plan on going full competitive in my local scene. Your scene is different? Cool for you! But don't point a finger and call others a liar when they live on a different continent and talk about experiences in different surroundings, especially when they never claimed that the situation they hear about 100% applies to every place in the world. Besides: The vast majority of this comment is about what I'd consider basics for fair play, not a commentary on the actual amount of cheaters in the scene! Please don't make stuff up yourself after skimming through one or two sentences, especially not on your own comment section. In your video you present yourself as someone with a sound and understanding approach, maybe try to show that in viewer interactions too without blaming them for something.
@pkswarroom Again, I am not telling people not to play competitively, I am mainly talking about what I expect from a fair game in general. Why is this so hard to grasp? And what's with your "weird excuses" trip? I am ending this conversation now, I don't think it's possible to achieve any positive outcome with you here.
me and my group I play with tend to recite rules we're about to engage with, as horus heresy players our rules get a little more wordy than current 40k so for example every time we shoot with volkite we read off deflagrate just to make absolutely sure we're aware of how its going to play out and theres no room for misinterpretation, it's been really helpful with some of the weirder rules.
Played a third edition tourny once, would have been right after codex Armageddon released, with a DA Deathwing army. Realized headed in to the last game I had fucked up and not been making my "hunt the fallen" rolls(I was about 14, it was an honest mistake). I went to the tourney organizer, and every opponent to offer a forfeit and apology. Not a single one of them would take the forfeit, especially the last one... See there was an actual cheater in this tournament. He had been claiming a 5pt "witch blade" upgrade to his dark eldar let every troop re-roll wounds. He had pissed my last opponent off badly enough the man went and bought a DE codex, and called him on the cheating(what he was claiming to be an every troop 5pt upgrade was 50ish point leadership only thing). They let him keep playing, I think mainly because they knew what was fixing to happen. Dark Eldar in 3rd where squishy. You put them in flyers and they where REALLY squishy. You run them out in front of 1700pts of terminator with TWO land raiders and a lascannon/missile pod dreadnaught..... I effectively tabled him the second turn. He picked his shit up, and walked out without saying a word. I ended up using the gift certificate I won on some terrain that the LHS we where at still has :P
It is totally okay to use proxies, AS LONG as it is clear and fair to everyone in the game what represents what and that they're distinguishable. Should also represent the size, number, of the unit proxied. So if you want to use a whole proxy army, make sure that each unit is as close as possible to the unit it represents, write down somewhere what equipment is on what unit and most of all, make sure your opponent is okay with it. Don't use hardly distinguishable units without clearly assigned gear to cheese your way through, as in: "Oh yeah those guys actually are assault Terminators, they look exactly like the devastor team over there, but they're different. Also they have this and this and this equipment I didn't mention before...". If you do this, shame on you. In pretty much every other situation, a fair solution with your opponent can be found if you ask them.
The fact that Warhammer uses tape measures instead of a grid system is just unbelievably stupid. Why would you make such an important aspect of the game so imprecise and so unstandardized?
This is also hilarious cause its obviously not for the sake of immersion, having a grid under everything pales in comparison to the shockingly ugly unimmersive use of unpainted L-shaped terrain spam
Can you go into more detail on Obsuring Terrain? I've been dealing with another more experienced player at my LGS who has been having a hard time with obscuring terrain and line of sight. They play knights and treat the obscuring terrain as if the terrain itself dissapears as soon as they toe into it and shoot at targets that they don't have line of sight on because they treat every wall of the terrain as if it were no longer there. Am I wrong for thinking they still need to be able to see the unit that they are targeting?
You ALWAYS need true line of sight. Artillery weapons which specifically say they can shoot non LoS targets is the only way around it. What obscuring does is provide extra cover. If a terrain piece has the obscuring trait it means you can’t shoot through it, even if you can physically see the target. If you are inside the terrain you are no longer blocked by the obscuring trait and are back to basic true LoS. This is also true for units that want to shoot you. The last bit is that if your model has 18+ wounds it can’t be blocked by obscuring. However this doesn’t mean it gets to ignore it so everything else still gets to hide with obscuring and shoot you.
If you touch a piece of obscuring terrain, the terrain still exists, but it no longer obscures models that you can draw a physical line of sight to. If you can’t draw Line-of-sight to a target, you still cannot shoot that target
@@warp-hammer thank you. Just for some reassurance and my own sanity is why I'm asking here. I'm glad to hear that the rest of us have been playing it correctly.
I don't think my friends have been cheating but there's been multiple games I've lost where I went over the rules in regards to some weird abilities they used to turn the tides and have had to point out that they shouldn't have been able to do what they did
Regarding timing on chess clocks, I try to play a 2 hour game every time, just so I can use the clock against my opponent if they're being a dick or have the *slow play* bug. It adds a little tension, but it's a good practice to be quick without rushing lol
So, I've got a hell of a story for this. I'm playing this one guy in a casual league, essentially no prize, just for fun, (I think it was like $20.00 store credit or something.) There weren't official list checks because it was a casual league and people were supposed to learn as they play and were allowed to swap a unit here or there between rounds as it was new player friendly. We were talking a bit before the game and he bragged about how his sisters list had taken down a meta Dreadknight list with a tone of melta firepower in a previous round. I thought this was odd since a friend of mine playing Tsons got stomped by him a few rounds earlier and mentioned that he had allied in a bunch of Sisters of Silence and a Culexus Assassin. As I'm getting my stuff out, I mention the horde army I brought, and he goes "oh I know, I saw a match of yours a few rounds ago," then proceeds to put multiple units of flamers and blast weapons on the table. Clearly he was researching his opponents and completely rebuilding his list for every game. (The TO confirmed this with all his other opponents after the fact.) Even so, I'm a good sport about it, and try to roll with it. First round goes off and he's forgetful of a few things, both for and against him so I try not to judge too hard. He tried to deep strike turn one, but then also forgets his FNP's on his mortifiers several times that I remind him of. The one that I finally called BS on was when he insists that his sisters can Rapid Fire like space marines. I tell him no, that's just a marine thing. He says he's positive that's how it works and I ask him to show me where in his codex it says that. He doesn't even pretend to check, and just goes, "oh, I must have misremembered." He then proceeds in the following turns to start rolling dice really fast whenever I turn away to take a sip of water, so I've got to start watching him like a hawk. By the end of turn three, I'm super fed up with his BS and despite the cheating and list rigging the game is still neck and neck. Time's running low though so I'm trying to play faster. It's the end of his turn and I'm rolling some LD checks I roll for two squads quickly then I toss the die for the third realizing as it leaves my had that it's a critical unit that needs to pass. Before the dice even hits the table I shout "shit, I CP pass that one!" The dice comes to a stop, he looks at it, sees that it has failed, and goes "yeah, no, you already rolled it." Now, I'm not sure what the ruling would be in a legit tourney on that one, I could understand it being called either way, but in a casual event and after all his BS, I was just done with this guy. I call a judge over to deal with it rather than argue with this idiot any longer. So the judge rules in my favour, says I can keep the model for 2CP, and the guy gets super pissed off, to the point where the judge doesn't even want to deal with him (he was a newer judge and I could tell he hadn't dealt with this kind of thing before.) So eventually the judge caves and says "in the 40k rulebook it says if two people can't come to a decision, you roll a dice and whoever wins, you go with their ruling." We both agree and the roll comes up in my favour. This dude in his mid twenties throws a full on temper tantrum that would put my five year old to shame, calling the tournament unfair, that the organizers had no idea what they were doing, or how to play the game, asked my if that was how I liked to win all my games, then saying that he refused to play with people like me, scooped up his models and left the store. So, I got the win by default, and he got a lifetime ban from the store. (Due to both this issue and complaints against him from every other person he played in the tourney.) It just astounds me, the gall and lack of shame that some of these people have, that they have to twist everything to their advantage to ensure a win and the second the tiniest thing doesn't break their way, it's all ruined. Time to move onto the next no effort win. Like, how do they even function in society, hold down a job or do anything that requires work or skill that they might not be 100% perfect at every time? On some level, I can understand cheating for a reward (it's a total scumbag thing to do for sure, but at least it makes logical sense, you get something out of doing it.) I just don't get why something that's supposed to be either fun, a test of skill, or both can possibly be either of those things if you're cheating? Boggles my mind to no end. Oh, also after that, he sent me a follow up angry PM on Facebook (what we were using to organize our games) because I guess he didn't get it all out of his system the first time. Basically calling me a win at all costs cheater who was ruining the game, blah, blah, blah. I was going to tell him to get a life before blocking him, to find that he'd already premptivly blocked me, I guess his fragile ego couldn't even take a reply to his BS? The most hilarious thing about this whole situation was that none of it even needed to happen. He originally missed the two week window for our match and I was given the win by default; but I talked to the TO to give us a 2 day extension so that we could actually play out our game because I didn't want to win that way. (Not knowing at the time of course the kind of person he was.) XD
I've never once played a table top game, and don't know any rules, but changing your army for each opponent seems like both a scumbag move, and cheating. Don't know how long it went on before he ran off like a cheating coward, but my hats off to you, sir/madam.
@@hippo5231 Yeah, in normal tournaments it would be. It was a casual event so people were allowed to tweak their lists by a unit or two between rounds if they didn't like how things were performing, but they were very explicit at the beginning of the league that the kind of list tailoring he was doing was not allowed.
Feels like dice trays should be supplied or sold at events, and that if one player requests for all dice to be rolled in the tray that they should all be rolled in the tray. DQ anyone who's against doing that cuz they're probably cheating
I think my favorite examples of not knowing the rules was in my first game of warhammer against a player who had recently come back to the game. Mainly they weren't allocating wounds properly, for example he had a squad of accursed cultists, some of those units have 3 wounds, so he was adding damage to all of them then leaving them at one wound so they wouldn't die. Then there was another time he took his allied war dog brigand and gave it sustain hits with dark pact. The rolled 2 sixes on the thermal spear melta gun or whatever its called and absolutely annihilated one of my tanks, that unit doesn't have the heretict astartes faction keyword.
My wife and I thought that was how wounds worked for our first 6-ish months playing. That was when CSM had 1 wound each, but Daemons of Nurgle had tons of multi-wound models. We were house ruling all kinds of crap to try to balance the game because I would only get one or two of her models killed before she would table me. I finally figured out what we were doing wrong while watching a game on UA-cam, and all of a sudden, our games got a whole lot more competitive.
same as dnd, every single player and dm have fucked up in a way that the rules explain, thats not cheating, rolling a 2 and saying its a 20 is cheating
Playing Yugioh back in the day, had a dude who played Penguin Knight as his main strategy, which (IIRC) had the flip effect of returning 1 card to each players hand when flipped. So he would lay it out in facedown defense mode, I'd attack it, it would flip and he would return it to his hand...rinse and repeat for the whole game...that isn't how that works though, since his card was attacked it should have been sent to the graveyard...(this was confirmed later on but man was I annoyed because he was such a smug SoaB the whole time we played)
I've seen a few videos where instead of rolling on the table, people will roll the dice around in their open palm and then just place them down on the table, always getting good rolls. Whats to stop them rolling until they see a load of 1s and then placing them down so they get 6s?
I’ve seen similar- dice “throws” that are actually just low tips from a hand that will clearly drop onto a 6. Should we insist on a roll from a cup into a tray, or a drop down a randomising dice tower?
Great video, with the modelling aspect, I am very much a fluff player, so some of my models are taller than they should be due to basing or in different poses. However due to the nature of my lists they are not overly competitive anyway.
They really need to go back to 4th. Edition line of sight rules and area terrain. You couldn't model for advantage because of how units were categorized. True line of sight is fucking nonsense because games are already heavily abstracted to accommodate logistical problems.
Imagine a casual group of acquaintances, a couple pairs of friends, really, playing in each others basements 20 years ago. One of them is a serial cheat, Warhammer, RPGs, board games, whatever. I don't know which I hated worse... all that low key cheating he did over the years or that one time he threw an effing monumental fit and accused me of not knowing how to draw a parallel line in a Warhammer Fantasy game. I knew how to determine a parallel line, dammit, it was incredibly insulting and I will always remember that drama.
07:15 Being a newbie who was taught how to play by a more experienced guy and him unbelievably wipe the floor with me in an unbelievable over-powered way, just put me off the game. Our games were so unbelievably one sided thanks to his rules, that I genuinely did not enjoy playing him. His excuse?… “Magic”. I can’t prove it but I also think his dice are loaded, I’ve never seen anyone roll so many 6’s. Maybe one day I’ll count them throughout a game and work out the odds, for example rolling a double 6 has a probability of 2.78%
I remember my first games in 8th, being completely overwhelmed with how my little plague marines move and what they could take on. THe people who introduced me were long time vets and used their tourney lists against me, claiming " he needs to learn the game eventually". Nothing is scarier as a whole army of tyrannids crossing the board in one turn and ripping everything apart, as the opponent rambles about special rules and abilities
People who slow play and then aren't willing to talk out the game are trash. If we only get to turn 3 because you spent 2 of our 3 hours playing then we are going to talk out the rest of the game and make educated guesses at who will actually win.
Cheating is exhausting. The "ghost inches" when measuring movement or charges is something I've encountered in many wargames. Either by doing the front to back trick or sliding the measuring stick while moving the unit subtly. Some of these issues Warmachine MKIV fixes through it's rules. 1. Slow Play: Warmachine uses a Deathclock (chess timers) for competitive play. It is your responsibility to clock back to your opponent. So your opponent clocking to you when you are rolling saves but you not clocking back to him when you're done is on you, not your opponent. However, good sportsmanship would be to say "hey you forgot to pass the timer back." if you notice your opponent is running their clock while it's your turn. 2. Movement fiddliness: In MKIV the infantry movement rules have you move one model, then place the others within 2" of it. It's much faster and very easy to check if shenanigans occurred by holding a widget over the model that moved. 3. WYSIWYG: Only cohort models have options for their kit, and those options have point values. If you try to mess with your options between rounds it will mess with your army point value potentially making your army illegal. Plus the official app is free and has a feature to let you share lists to your opponent's app easily so they can review your list before starting. Since there are only a few cohort models, it's easy to check that your models have and are using the weapons the list says they are. 4. Modeling for Advantage: In Warmachine model volume is determined not by the physical model but by its base size. Every model's "visibility" is determined by a cylinder drawn from the base up a number of inches depending on base size. So your models get to look as cool as you want without that screwing up your ability to play the game by giving you an unfair advantage/disadvantage. The fact that Warhammer doesn't do this frankly boggles my mind. These are just a few of the things that popped into my mind while watching this (admittedly) somewhat old video. But just more reasons why I prefer playing Warmachine even though I do enjoy Warhammer too. Anything that inhibits BS players from cheating or taking advantage is great IMO.
Why is it such a huge problem in 40k with the WYSIWYG? In the LOTR table top people just say that their 20 spearmen are archers and most are fine with it.
It goes back to early tournament days when armies had 3 unit choices and 2 types of guns. It has just grown with the game and is fucking ridiculous. IF GW insists on WYSIWYG, they should provide the required models in the boxes in the numbers required. Needing multiple models with a gun you get one of in a box makes it either impossible or ridiculously expensive to run the unit you want to and it prohibits experimentation as, unless 100% magnetised, it is not possible to swap out weapon options.
@@AndrewFishman One thing that I don't understand. in the current IG Codex, you can pick between 1 Plasma soldier, 1 rifleman or 1 vox caster with las gun. But with the box you can easily make 1 voxcaster and still get 1 plasma soldier (by replacing the Melta with a Plasma rifle). Heck, i was even able to give the sergeant the bolter, even though they share the same arm for the plasma rifle. And my Leman Russ tank that I got, I build it like I saw it on the box, where the side weapons are different, which I'm not even sure if that's allowed or not.
Getting into AOS myself for the first time with my other half.... takes quite a bit of getting used to and learning the rules...... 40k terrain rules look even worse without the added complexity XD
I once had an opponent use a photoshopped datasheet against me
The funniest thing? We were playing the same codex. I just flipped to the page
That is a special kind of loser to go to those lengths.
So many people say termies have t5 I want to make a photoshopped data sheet with that just to fuck with people. Not to use in games but just to post online. Do a little Tzeentch tom foolery if you will
I mean with balance slates we can't trust codex pages 100% too, but usually there are if, some less drastic changes or simply points.
@@januszmanczak161 Rarely, if ever, do they ever change base stats though.
@@armybeast1823 I forgot what edition it was, but someone actually did that once, and got a bunch of people kicked out of an official GW event for using fake codexes. They had pirated their rules, and the rules weren't correct.
One time my buddy made forty 4+ saves in a row as mobs of my ork boys tried to kill his captain holding an objective at the center of the board. I rolled his dice and came up with a bunch of 1s, 2s, and 3s. Turns out he wasn't cheating, we were just witnessing something rarer than winning the lottery twice after surviving your car being struck by lightning both times on your way to buy a ticket. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
To be fair, one of the safest places you can be during a storm is inside your car, since a bolt of lightning is conducted into the tires. The car will even continue to run afterwards.
Been there. Bought new dice. Rolled 9 6s turn one. Don't think they have ever rolled a 6 since
I once had the last guardsman in a squad take the last wound off a demon prince.
@@ShogunFRIEND Thats a myth. The tires do tidily squat. Its the metal shell of the car that actually conducts the lightning into the ground and it dissipates.
@@terranaxiomuk lol yeah there's always those stories everyone has of some big, beefy dude just getting merk'd by some nobody. I once fired a bunch of lascannons and plasma guns into a demon prince with one wound left, and he made all of his invulnerable saves after I missed a bunch of shots. Then, one of my scouts hopped over a fence and killed him with a bolt pistol.
Had a tactical squad wiped out by a carnifex that was contesting a table corner. Last turn of the game, there's only a marine with a power axe left (not even a sergeant!). Carnifex missed all its attacks the turn before and on turn six, the lone marine managed to land all his wound rolls to cut through the carnifex and kill it before it could attack back (initiative 4 vs. initiative 2).
The cheating that upset me the most in my experience of Warhammer was one guy who played an entire proxy list and did not explain to me what the proxies were. I was brand new to the game so I accepted playing his proxy army (which was Red Corsairs but he used models of loyalist marines with their heraldry crossed out in different color schemes to represent different unit). So when I went to shoot at his green tactical marines I learned that they were plague marines and as a result far more resilient to my bolters (this was 7th edition when they were super hard to kill). Later I learned that this was the guy who would bring 7th ed Eldar bike spam into new players’ first games and would refuse to tell people what was in his transports and now I won’t play him anymore.
Yeah, there are so many of them around.
Those guys need to be shunned
This is why I have a problem with 3D printed armies.
One or two 3D printed units? Fine whatever. But when the whole army is bullshiz since they’re not an official unit, you can’t tell what they are, and whats to say your opponent isn’t gonna swap rules on you.
@@LinkiePup That can happen with kitbashed shit too, but not to the same extent. I own legit, 3d printed, and kitbashed/scratch built models. As long as everyone knows what is what going into the game it has never been an issue.
@@TheAtomicSpoon Still, I don’t think its cool having 3D printed models. More power to you I suppose: but IN THE CASE OF THE COMMENT I WAS REPLYING TO: 3D Printed Proxy Models are an issue.
I remember one of the most heinous slow plays I’ve had was during the Adepticon team tournament. It was our match right after the lunch break and they gave us extra time to get to our tables for anyone running late. Well our opponents didn’t show up in time at all and the T.O.’s kept saying to just wait a little longer. The other team finally showed up about 30-40 minutes into the game round. The T.O. let them play.
They then went about taking as long as possible to take out their army and tell us what all it was which they had I believe plague marines and Nurgle demons. By the time they got everything set up and THEY were ready there was like 1 hour left in the battle round. Their first turn was extremely slow and involved them moving onto objectives and deep striking a model onto the center objective which since it was turn 1 our armies weren’t anywhere near it. Then after turn 1 they stopped the game and said that since there was only 30 minutes left that THEY didn’t think that we could finish a turn 2 and they wanted to call the game there with them having a victory for being on 3 objectives to our 2.
We called the T.O. over and told them what was going on. They thankfully sided with us and pointed out that the other team had done all this intentionally to only allow 1 turn and that we would be allowed at least a turn 2 despite their protests. Thankfully we were able to kill the stuff off the center objective and at least get a draw which they were very angry about.
This story always makes me annoyed when I remember it.
Accurate that a nurgle player would slowly decay the game
Great tactic. I'll certainly use this one
To be fair Nurgle is a slow fat boi 🤣
Sounds like someone who doesn’t enjoy playing the game, just winning it.
@@pretzelbomb6105 Yeah that sounds toxic AF.
Someone who probably considers it a win if everyone but them stops playing in their area.
Honestly I feel like terrain is the most confusing part of this game. It's somewhat confusing with the rules but also hard for new players to make a well designed map. I'd love to see a terrain guide!
Yeah, the 9e terrain rules are... not great. Confusingly-named-and-worded universal special rules in an edition whose core rules are otherwise so simple that nobody even brings the BRB to games
There should be templated terrain in the Chapter Approved missions, IMO. It just makes sense to give players a consistent set of terrain, and allows people to develop their strategies reliably, instead of having the terrain set periodically hose or favor you. Especially when you're new at the game, playing a new army, or trying to learn a new mission pack, it throws a massive wrench in the learning curve to have that type of strategic inconsistency. I'd always advocate for getting good at one thing, and learning the abstracts from the process of getting good at that one thing.
@@Julian-cn1ey new players aren't playing match play lol
@@CyrodiilCome why not? My group started playing about a year ago, we went right to matched play because list building with points just makes sense, and it's what the game is balanced around. It's fun to play all the different missions in the mission packs, too. I think it's pretty common.
@@CyrodiilCome I mean that's just wrong. I started in 2019 and my first game was match played. Why would anybody use PL? It's not an easier system to use, it's worse balanced, and it's not what your average gamer uses to play the game.
TTS is going to be many players' entry point to 40k at this point, not tabletop play.
I'm glad you brought up the fact that some older players have forgotten more rules in 40k than most know. I'm guilty of this, I mix up editions all the fucking time lol
They come out w a new edition every 2 years these days so🤷
@@Redlurk3 Codices don't even make it to the end of the week before they get errata'd....Leagues of Votann was what? Like 5 days? Lmao 😂
@@nekrataali Exactly!
Skittarii codex in 7th got axe in less than 6months !
Vottan a new army comes out and at the same time only most other factions got a codex.
Me and my mate used to do overwatch in our friendly games before it was a thing as we thought it was bs that melee units can just yolo and delete entire squads. We did it on a 5+ though.
@@terranaxiomuk Overwatch was a thing in the early editions. I think it was 5th that it was dropped.
I cheated idiotically because I didn’t read the rule correctly. As a guard player, I used the first rank fire and second rank fire (8th edition) all the time, I thought the order gave all rapid 1 into a rapid fire 2, so I though the plasma weapon got it too, soon did I learn from a another guard player that I was doing it wrong, so I want apologize to the blood angels player that always bested me.
Well, that's making a mistake, not cheating. Otherwise everyone would be a cheater.
That NOT Cheating that an Honest Mistake, you didn't know a Cheat is when YOu KNOW that its wrong and You do it anyway.
Wait that doesn’t work on plasma? Bruh 😂
@@-Cheifit does now
That’s an honest mistake, I mention to my opponent if I ever made a mistake and apologize, 99.9999% of the time they say it’s okay.
our game store has had to put dice towers and dice trays on each table. it made some people go to other stores... at those stores they did the same thing. Now everyone in our area has towers and trays.
That's an absolutely glorious method of making cheaters self-expose 🤣🤣🤣
Dice trays should be mandatory.
The towers are just too noisy for me, you get 4-5 games going in a echoey room and you cant hear yourself think let a lone what your opponent is saying.
@@CS-zn6ppsounds like a good simulator for actual war
perhaps collectively blacklist thosep layers
or make a separate cheaters tournament, lets see who cheats the best
dice trays really are some of the best investments you can get as a warhammer player. just makes stuff a lot less ambiguous
No... On a tall wargaming table dice are often harder to see over the lip of the tray than on a flat table
@@lordmalal if you have the dice tray in an easily accessible spot, this isn't a concern. Also, it greatly reduces the number of dice that knock over models, moving terrain to pick up dice, cocked dice, etc. it's been a godsend for me
Absolutely. I like to insist on using the tray for all rolls, the only exception being advance and charge rolls. I like to make those next to the unit that's doing the thing, so it's not ambiguous
@@lordmalal placement of the tray matters too. It should be be in the middle of the table in the non-play side.
Would a clear tray make it visible to opponent (from the side)?
The fact that there's entire videos on this sort of thing just reinforces my decision to only play GarageHammer with my pals rather than finding strangers on a whim
You are missing out. Events are super fun.
@@pkswarroomI really doubt it. Unless it’s a narrative tournament there’s no fun to be had against the sweatiest meta lists of terminators, tanks and elves yet again
same. tournament players take this stuff way too seriously to make it fun. For too many, the armies are merely tokens on a board for various meta rules. Completely ruin any sense of immersion, narrative. with that said, you can have non-competitive events. Narratives are great!
@@pkswarroomI've been to magic events. I learned something simple. Events are fun if you like events. If you like the game then events are just cash grabs that ruin the experice. Rather get a new set and just leave rather then participate in the event
Tournaments can be really fun and social events but just like any sport or game there will be room for cheating or gamesmanship.My advice for any warhammer tornament would be to know the rules ,and to know your own army and codex like the back of your hand to save time. And to also have a basic knowledege of other teams rules ,else you will fall into all the traps.Also dont bring a fluffy list to a tournament if you want any chances of winning ,just like turning up to a boxing match after partyting all night you will get battered and not enjoy yourself.
My brothers cancer came back, and it was bad enough to need chemo (testicular, one removed and then the cancer moved to his lymph nodes). He took up 40k after a hiatus, to keep himself busy. I took it up as well, to bond with him and share an interest. We play with our own interpreted rules, never about winning and just about the fun of the game.
He’s doing great now, full remission as of late. 40k helped us bond and I don’t care if I lose a million times against him.
I had a similar experience where my dad got cancer, whom had played back in rouge trader and early 2nd edition and he was getting back into the law which subsequently inspired me to get into 40k.
Luckily he has fully recovered now.
I played what was supposed to be a fun, silly christmas tournament. Came up against a guy who had a reputation for being good. Unfortunately for him, I am extremely good, from playing so many games, at judging distances. He constantly kept giving himself +1 - 3 inch extra movement on all his units. In the 2nd turn I made note of where his units were, then measured where he had put them. He had moved his hive tyrant a whopping 23 inches to get to where he wanted to go, with a 2inch advance. And his warriors an extra inch or 2. I pointed this out and he was really annoyed, but promptly moved his stuff back. He also rolled behind terrain, picking up dice really quickly. I had to make it really obvious I was aware by leaning over the table to look behind the terrain which also really annoyed him. Couple that with deliberate slow playing, (they had 1 unit left, and spent 6 minutes deliberating) watching the game timer count down. They ended up winning the thing. Funny that.
Going to my first ever RTT in January, really hoping i don't meet anyone like this
@@daniel_fyr2515 There are one or two guys like this at every tournament, and usually they will win it, or score highly. Just have to keep your eyes out for the signs.
I'll take any kind of personality, gamer rage, sulking, stupidity. Anything. But I cant tolerate cheats. Most people are great though.
@@daniel_fyr2515 practice playing on a chess clock, and use it. This protects you from slow play by guaranteeing you get half the time to make whatever moves you need to secure points, and is just a nice reminder of how much time is in the round. Introduce it as "I have a bad sense of time, this helps me stay on track". Explain how it works (decisions and dice rolls you make are on your time and vice-versa), and genuinely offer advice, like if you are on turn 3 with 20 minutes left, both players will score more by focusing on moving models rather than shooting (aside from that handful of critical moments)
When your opponent measures a model's move, put your finger at the end of the ruler. This is helpful in general as it keeps track of where the model ends up for non-cheaty players, and puts a check on the cheaty ones.
My own experience with Warhammer is very limited (just a few guys meeting in a small game store back in the 90thies) . So i'm a bit naive about modern wargames. A bit of cheating for a laugh among mates is one thing. But I'm curious why people cheat with something as risky as loaded dice. is the Price money high enough to attract professional scammers, or is it the same a-holes who want to win no matter what .
@@spiritualanarchist8162 Just crappy people. Also if your friends are cheating you, they are crap friends. They should be the ones least likely to do it.
Loaded dice aren't that common, but they do crop up. Sometimes people want to use their "special" dice. I just say no.
The funniest cheat that I have ever witnessed was at a 9th Edition tournament here in Germany (1500 points). So there was this guy and he played necrons and of course he brought a nightbringer to the table. I played blood angels on this day but I also collect and play necrons as well... so the game took its turns and we came to his first movement phase in wich he moved his c'tan 12". Me knowing it is not able to that normally but he was like very convinced that he could do that so I just let him go with it. His second movement phase he all of a sudden moved 14" so I told him "dude he can't do that!" But he was like "yeah that's one of his c'tan powers" so I wanted to see his codex (me obviously knowing that he was trying to cheat) and he then started to call the ref on me because quote: " this dick is trying to steal my codex from me!" Ceep in mind that the dude looked like he was 40 or something. Yeah funny thing is that I tabled him 4th turn and left him with a "gg"...
I play in the same meta as the guy who got caught cheating on camera and can confirm a lot of the top ITC ranked players do shit like this all the time. He was banned from major ITC events but was still allowed to in local RTT events. He now films himself and his dice rolls but if he doesn’t do it infront of me I make him reroll.
Hey so do I! Well now and then anyway.
I've played him a fair bit in the last 18 months and he's always been very straight and up front in our games.
Just refuse to play at game stores. The ammount if crap that happens in my local stores was stupid. Models getting tossed by other players, awkward passive aggressive attitudes.. the way people would fall over themselves to talk to a female that walks in trying to help her pick a army. It was comical but sad..
There used to be a guy who came to one of the local gaming stores and played 40K, and he would roll his fists full of dice and take a quick look then scoop them all up “OK, that was 22 successes.” Like no way the average person could determine how many 4ups were in that load of dice in the 1-2 seconds they were on the table.
When I played, I would make people roll in the open and ONLY pick up Missed hit dice. Because I played with a guy who would pick up Hits, and he seemed to hit a LOT. So I eventually noticed. We aren't friends anymore
It's basic etiquette to remove dice that fail. I'm surprised he had anyone to play with at all. It's a basic habit, especially in a game like 40k where you're rolling like 20, 50, or 100+ dice in one go.
Yeah the only time I'm really okay with picking up hits is if it's like...ork shooting, and I trust the guy. Because goddamn that's a lot of misses.
I'm very new, and I've started bringing flash cards for different rules and things my army can do so I have them on hand. I usually play Thousand Sons, and I always forget "All is Dust", "Mutated Beyond Reason", and just my marines having Objective Secured. Saves me a lot of Codex reading while I play!
I've played vs the loaded dice. Found where he bought them on eBay and reported him...he left positive feedback from his email address for the purchase.
Played against TONS of stretchy tape measures
Played vs a guy who just zoomed his units wherever he wanted without a tape measure... during a tournament. I called him on it. Eventually his cheating almost led to a fist fight and T.O.s were called.
He was they type of happy friendly cheater but when he started to lose, despite the cheating, his temperament went bad and he started tossing his own minies.
I played vs a LOT of people who make things up in their own codex. I generally just bought every codex and rule and brought my own copies to the tournaments.
34 years of Warhammer. Seen it all here.
Seen it all but a hygienic incel with a well groomed beard aye 😂
I remember a recent local GT I played in. My opponent was a Chaos Knights player with 3 big fellas and 4 war dogs on a hotdog deployment mission. He did not want to tell me what his army did during our pre deployment talk and was adamant about it. I was fielding Blood Angels with 1x10 Death Company with power swords and inferno pistols, 2x5 thunder hammers on the field, and 2x7 Sanguinary Guard with axes and bolters in deep strike. I did not want to argue with him anymore, so I just told him "Fine, I won't tell you what I can do. But if I go first I will table you by turn 2, if not I'll table you turn 3". So I went first, killed 2 big knights with the death company alpha strike (chapter master rerolls, blood chalice for assault doctrine buff, 1 with 10 inferno pistols, and 1 on the charge), and crippled him so my other DC and Sang Guard pretty much just cleaned house by turn 2. Funny thing is that he called a TO multiple times contesting my rules, and when he got wiped, he just walked out of the tourney lol. Not necessarily a cheat, but a rotter nonetheless!
I actually take steps to teach my friends to play 40k through TTS. I start by not including the terrain rules because there's a lot to learn but on their third game I introduce some of the terrain + rules and give them a chart with the rules because I find that throwing all the rules at once at a new player is hard for them.
You're a gentleman and a chad. Love that profile pic.
That's a decent way of learning people to play, fair play.
Yeah, our school club is doing a game with just the basic rules, then we’ll add cover, toughness, terrain, etc
@@jimriggs5988me and my buddy are learning the game and that’s we’re doing. Next game we’re adding strategems and I already know both of us are going to fuck it up.
There's a Sisters player I know who is always cheating dice rolls. Pre-rolling dice, then saving them to substitute for rolls later in the round! I suppose loyalty to the Emperor will do that...
They aren’t loyal to the emperor, they’re craven and honourless. He was playing brides of the emperor, not sisters and like vandire he should probably have his ass kicked for that
That how their faction works it’s an ability
@@micaiah7776 (I think that was the joke...)
@@micaiah7776 ;)
@@stephendarkman576 I know
Another one is dice rolling technique. There’s a reason why your dice have to hit the back wall when you’re shooting craps - if you pour the dice out of your hand without rolling it you can fairly consistently land it on what you want. Lost a game of monopoly that way a while ago.
Tell me if you've seen this one: "Rolling" dice.
We used to play with a guy who played with comically large dice. Like, 1/2-3/4" wide dice. When he "rolled" them, he would palm them such that he could pick them straight up, then clasp them in his hands such that they would rattle in his hands as he shook them around but not really move much otherwise, and then just set them right back down rather than throwing or rolling them.
I had a mate (who has sadly passed on, now) I played Fantasy against, regularly. He was an older guy in his fifties (I was mid-thirties at the time), didn’t have many friends, but was obsessed with gaming. He was always able to get the charge off, be in range for shooting, or just be out of my charge range. Now some of this, I put down to him being a more experienced player - he had been playing for decades, as opposed to my years.
And sometimes, this was the case. But most times, he was cheating. We mostly played on his table, at his home. It wasn’t quite standard size, due to space considerations, but we both had the dimensions down pat.
I didn’t mind, though, as we weren’t playing for sheep stations, he was great company, and, when I did win a game, I knew I had played a blinder.
I don’t think he knew I knew he was cheating, and sometimes it was pretty obvious. But, again, I didn’t mind, because, otherwise, he was a nice guy, and I think winning games was the one bright thing in his life.
One day, though, I started the game tired, and was having a bad week. He was playing chaos, and I was playing my shooty Wood Elves. I had deliberately set up my front line to be just out of charge range for the second turn, as he marched up towards them. Still, somehow, he managed to get several charges off in turn two… I called him out on it, and he looked genuinely shocked, and upset. He tried to cover, by saying I must have misjudged my positioning, but we both knew that was not the case. We reset, and started over, as all that had happened was he had moved up, and I had killed an average amount of his troops with my arrows.
We never spoke of this again, and we continued to play for several years after this, until I moved, and we hardly played again.
The funny thing is, we both played in local tournaments - that is how I met him. Turns out we lived a few doors down from each other. He taught me a lot about the game, and made me a better player. I faced him in tournaments, and watched him play many tournament games. He never intentionally cheated in any tournament game I had the chance to play against him, or watch. He was a really good player.
I don’t know why he always cheated when we played casually. Maybe he was trying to make me a better player? Maybe he thought he needed to cheat to beat me - not likely? As I said, he was really good. I am average, at best. Maybe he enjoyed cheating, but was honest enough not to do it at tournaments? He is gone, now, so I will never know…
I knew a guy like this. Basically grew up playing him at 40k, Fantasy and Necromunda. As well as playing with him in AD&D.
Hideous cheater. Sometimes pretty blatantly (yes, even in AD&D).
Genuinely a brilliant player, otherwise. Whenever he entered tournaments, he usually placed - and there were never any complaints.
Such an interesting story. Thank you for sharing!
I was crafting a response that I thought would be great, turns out it didn't really add anything, so instead I'll just say: thanks for posting, explaining, and also quantifying how often it has happened to you, it was helpful.
I had to play this one guy at our local small tournaments over and over because it was like 10-16 players. The guy would go extreme WYSIWYG to try to disqualify your army loadouts. The one I remember the most was him going after my marines for grenades. The marines I had didn’t have grenades on every single model and he would always call the T.O. over and claim that since not all my models had grenades they could not use them. The same with me saying my Sargent had a melta bomb he would say “I don’t see a melta bomb glued on that model, so he can’t be equipped with one”. This guy constantly would pull crap like this.
This happened to an Eldar-playing mate of mine, specifically with the grenades thing. I was always pretty sure that 'nades were an exception to the WYSIWYG rules, but apparently not as the TO at the time sided with the guy.
Did he also call them out for not having ammo packs, so could only shoot once?
Have a look at how many marines have extra ammo on their model. Almost none do.
I cheated at a local rtt by mistake I had an extra unit of assault intcerssors cause I had left them in my carry case from an earlier game in the week and I know all my units data sheets by heart at this point so didn't look at my list until after the trounament to see what I could do better. I don't think much would have changed considering the outcome of the matches lost 2 won 1. Still feel bad about it tho.
I've seen where a person submitted a list at a local tournament, then found out he had brought multiple lists to use depending on who he played against. Each list had minor substitutions on them so as not to draw to much suspicion.
Can you not sub out units? Genuinely curious
@codypatton8802 not that I've ever seen, every tournament I've attended, you submit 1 list and your models needed to represent that list having the items and wargear listed.
I ran a Necron silver tide reanimation list for a tournament in 9th edition. We're talking 3 reanimators, reanimation orbs and lords, a ton a warriors and scarabs etc. I also played against a DRUKARI PLAYER (this was back when they were considered overbuffed). For the whole game I was being killed but then reanimating and taking objectives back, right at the end when I was about to win, they called over the TO to ask about how my reanimation works, and the TO said you are not allowed to daisy chain revive your models. Despite showing my rules and multiple sources online confirming that you can daisy chain, they refused to accept it and ruled me out for doing so (this was the first round of a 3 round tournament) and gave the win to the other player. I later found out they're friends and play at the same store regularly.
I immediately quit the tournament and left . I then sold all my 40k armies and moved to skirmish gaming instead, and I have enjoyed the hobby way more ever since.
Jesus Christ, that sucks to hear. Really sorry to hear you sold your stuff too. Sounds like the tournament deserved to be shut down and those two people deserved to be banned from all tournaments.
@@nickkohlmann For what it's worth, my act of walking out sparked a lot of discussion in the local community, and the guy who ran the tournament has basically been shunned and can't start one again.
The store that hosted the tournament also lost a lot of business. But to be honest I'm glad it happened because I really don't like the core mechanics of 40k that was kinda stuck in the investment fallacy of it.
Now I've moved onto game systems I actually enjoy so it was a blessing in the end.
One of my old roommates who got me into 40k in the first place in the early days of 4th edition cheated quite regularly. Back then you had to guess the range of your shots if you were using artillery. And since he was a Guardsman through and through he had multiple Basilisks. I used to wonder why he always guessed so well until my other roommate told me years later that he would put his measuring tape down next to the table whitout retracting it during my turn so he would magically know the correct distances during his turn while he was holding his retracted measuring tape in his hands to prove he wasn't cheating. I don't know how I never caught on but nowadays it's a good laugh. The one time he tried cheating during our REALLY big 6 people apocalypse event it killed the game though.
I hate cheaters, but equally up there is the min/max power gamers, who seem to always be prep playing their tournament list against casual players, and then proceed to never actually enter tournaments, because his ego cant handle the idea of someone beating his "list" that was copied from the internet anways. I do not like that guy.
Min/Maxing is absolutely fine if all players involved are keen to do so.
I have had that when I was younger I had a guard army get tabled turn 2 because the guy looked at my list and made a hyper competitive list. This was a casual game and I was like 14 and he was like early to mid 20s
My personal favourite cheat was the guy who tried to pass off another famous painters work as his own. That's bad enough but this guy did it in a Golden Demon contest in Auustralia.
As a new player to the game I hope to not cheat, but the game is so massive and there are so many rules that I’m sure (in the two games I’ve played so far) that I’ve bent or broken some. I’ve also probably also left out some of my core army rules and didn’t play to their advantage.
Learning isn't cheating! Even long time players get things wrong all the time.
It's cheating when someone, somehow, always gets it wrong to their advantage and decides to not learn from it...
Making mistakes isn’t cheating.
Worst case of cheating I've experienced is showing up for a league match, opponent knows what army I'm running as so they know I'm running 90% melee. They setup the table prior to my arrival, and setup the terrain so the middle of the board was wide open. There was no ability to jump from terrain piece to terrain piece, they setup the flanks with LOS pieces only so there were no flanks to move down...it was just awful. I told them we needed to reorganize the terrain or I wasn't playing. They didn't want to, but eventually they said yes when I told them this was cheating and I'd be reporting it to the organizers.
So there’s a kid at the store I frequent, who consistently cheats by “misremembering” rules, making up rules, rolling dice out of his opponent’s sight, bombarding his opponent with information and “advice”, and moving his units without measuring (effectively giving himself an extra 2” movement on average). Not to mention it’s basically impossible for anyone to remember which one of his chaos knights has which relic, warlord trait, etc. as his models were varied, rarely WYSIWYG, and proxied (mortarion used as a war dog). Because he was getting a bit of a reputation for being questionable things, when I played my last 2 games against him, I made him recite his list to me, thoroughly go through each of his traits, relics and abilities, and repeat which unit had what rule over the course of the battle. This was so I actually knew which unit to prioritise, be aware of, avoid, etc. I also made him roll his dice in front of me and used crystal markers to mark his unit’s maximum possible movement each turn. First game, he concedes on turn 3 after a rather one-sided battle, in which I didn’t allow him to cheat. 2nd game, he concedes after the first battle round, and tells me “I’m not going to play games with you anymore”. 😂
To anyone new to the game, or on a losing streak: Please, don’t cheat in Warhammer. Throwing away your honour for a “victory” you achieved via underhanded tactics and tricks is not worth it. You gain nothing from it, and people mark you as bell end.
“Mortarion as a war dog” is the funniest proxy I have ever heard of
Jeez.....it sounds like you're a Neckbeard Troll😮
Use the cheating to teach him a lesson.....make him a better person rather than just being a utter fool who bullies kids 😅
Played a guy a while ago (just a friendly) he managed to inflict 88 wounds on my knights in the first turn. I never actually saw a single roll he made.
That just sounds like good guns.
The first big tournament my friends and I attended, my friend played against a Knights player that talked too fast through his steps and used Sigmar terms to make everything confusing. He also claimed that the extra wound from Mechanicus means that the stat brackets change too, which is total horseshit. My friend didn't call the judge cause the guy was a close friend of the TOs
Not saying anything because he knows the ref is weak. Make a stink if someone's cheating.
@@viktordickinson7844 mostly be was being a prick. Vaping in my friend's face too after being asked to stop. Just a general a-hole that got away with it for being friends with the TO
What do you mean by "used sigmar terms", like he used terminology from age of sigmar?
@@generalgrievous2202 yes. He used terminology from AoS to explain what he was doing. Probably on purpose to obfuscate his cheating.
@@eicha41624 what a silly method of cheating, lmao
One cheater I remember playing, it was a casual game of 8th and he asked to proxy an army that he was thinking of starting. He had a army list and for casual games I'm okay with proxies so said sure just tell me what unit is proxy for what when you deploy. All was fine until turn 3, it was all equal and he declared an shooting attack with a unit that when deployed didn't have the guns he was rolling for. The unit with those guns were actually on the other side of the table and out of range. We debated until a TO from the nearby table came over (we wasn't taking part in the tournament) and when the TO checked the list he confirmed what I knew. The guy got angry and just left
Casual game with a TO?
@@martinberggren6328 Probably someone who's a TO just in the shop hanging out we had a guy at my LGS like that when I had any 40k questions l'd be like "hey what's this rule again"
I call BS😂
T.Os don't just "appear" at a local store
Spot on. This crap was going on 25 years ago and killed all interest I had in playing. Just checked out a new local scene and it's AMAZING how well everyone is playing along.
As for a cheating thing, I have to call myself out, I play custodes and they change how a the dawn eagle jetbike relice works, it used to give a 3 up inv which was great for the teaching game against my friend I didn’t bother to check if the relic had changed till a few days later.
That's called making a mistake, not cheating. You're good.
Ive accidentally used Dense Cover rules instead of Heavy Cover rules when using my Broodlord's Synaptic Imperative ability in my last game. Found out later about that goof, but it's also needlesly confusing what the various "cover" types do
If it makes you feel better, my gaming group misread the cover rule for 10th edition, and until a few days ago, we were giving -1 to hit, and +1 to armor saves for it instead of just +1 to save to a best of 3+.
"Hey, mate, you are playing Aeldari and not cheating - stop it, or I'll quit!"
"So I play tournaments with my little painted toy soldiers."
-"Oh cool, you sometimes?"
"Yeah, but only if I cheat."
I sometimes.
Recently had a guy blatantly lie about rules for his Praetor with HH 2.0.. because he would have been instantly killed. He had been whining the whole game when stuff didn't go his way, and when I murdered his warlord he straight up lied about the model's toughness. He also told me the wrong information several other times with influenced my targeting decisions. It sucked. It was a friendly game but definitely was not as fun as it could have been
Once I forgot to measure before shooting, and my unit was just out of 24".
After shooting etc, we realised and thought no big deal we just rolled back the issue.
My opponent put a few of his dead squad members back.
At the end of my opponents turn I specifically asked rather loud if that particular unit moved.
He state's no they need to remain for rapid fire.
Come my opponents shooting turn, he wanted to shoot back
His guns were also 24", and lo and behold some of his models were within 24" now.
I told him how can you be closer without moving, and he got mad xD
The sneakiest thing I have ever heard about, was someone with a custom made measuring tape that has an additional Milimeter in each centimeter bracket (so it had 11 marks instead of 10 between the numbers.
The inches were adjusted too, so a 6" movement was actually a 6.2" movement.
But why? its a game your here to have fun.
What next building an army of smallest minis you can find to use more cover?
That's desperation 😆
@@SuperFunkmachine I know people who deliberately field armies of fully lying/kneeling models to benefit from true line of sight rules
@@AndrewFishman talk about takeing the piss.
@@AndrewFishman My response to them would be "Fine, but if you want me to consider the model laying down for my line of sight, then you need to consider it the exact same for yours."
I don't mind a bit of variety in armies by making some models have different poses, I do it myself. But I always make it clear beforehand that I consider all my models to be standing for such things, and will happily replace lying/kneeling ones with spare standing ones if requested.
As a chaos knight player the one thing that I have seen the most and I hate the most is counter listing.
I've had it more times than I would like where the opponent said we can exchange lists. Saw that I was running a chaos knight army. And said they needed to make minor adjustments to their list. Only to come back with a full list of anti-tank vehicle and tarpit units
So you wanted to play against a infanterie army? looks like u r the cheater here
I think the obvious one I’ve had was when I was starting the games workshop member of staff would give themselves staff rerolls.
The cheating wasn't the bad part of it all, it was that the cheaters were 'friends of the shop" so to call a TO/Judge over was really just putting a shame counter on yourself. Most times, the TO favored the cheater and then YOU'D get a rep for being a whiner. Yeah...probably a little too specific but it's why I and a few other honest players stopped going to our "F"LGS.
Upside, it got me back into solo tabletop gaming and now I play cooperative 40k/KT with some homebrew mechanics. It's actually like playing a game of Warhammer Quest but with your actual armies...well...Kill Teams.
Sounds like a place to not support. I'm not the typical player and I know I have a bit more of an intimidating air about me so I don't get the shaming but then it turns into oh you don't know the rules or you are a bully. We got a lot of old men who think Warhammer is theirs and you shouldn't be allowed to play unless it's your whole life. Sad dudes really
The most heinous cheat i ever saw was in a casual game of 6th edition at my LGS
A relatively new tyranid player was playing a hormagaunt spam list, basically a bog pile of trash infantry.
His army was fine, then I as a 3d party noticed that his opponent was playing Gray knights(the most elite army at the time). He just casually showedup with a 3000 pnt + list in a 1500 pnt casual game.
I have made countless rule blunders in 40k because yes it is incredibly complex, unnecessarily so, literally have not had a single rule blunder in Warmachine, the rules are just so well layed out and easy to learn, just a clean quality ruleset
Had a fun one a few years back. They apparently printed their army builder list to PDF, then edited the PDF without changing points totals to add in all the special weapons, so they'd paid no points for having every squad fully upgraded. Came out to like 400 extra points, and it took us actually going through and redoing the list to be sure.
Had a small friendly tourney run by a longtime friend of mine. Been my first "tourney" in almost a decade and was invited to "get back into" the hobby. My first opponent kept "forgetting" to do something, and without asking, said "I would have done this, so I'm going to do it anyway" (like move, or do "this" in the command phase). When I tried to do the same (i would at least ask prior since it was etiquette), he would make a fuss about it, saying, "yeeeeahhh buuutt....", and make arguments against it. ultimately, I only got one of those "mulligans".
He also tried to take advantage of me by bringing in reinforcements onto an objective and claiming that he took control of it (even it was out of phase), and argued, "well in the next turn, i would have gotten it anyway". had he claimed the objective, he apparently would have gotten x2 the points, and would have won easily.
ultimately in the end, I told him to just roll off on who the "winner" is, and I beat him. so, he "lost", and I felt bitter. I threw my second match and got out of the tourney. If this is how the new group was like, I didn't want to be a part of the stupidity and waste my time.
Had a buddy who did quick rolling and then grabbed the dice before anyone could see and just claimed the number. DND, Warhammer didn’t matter he was quick draw McGraw when rolling and scooping dice.
Regarding dice, even when playing for fun among friends we always said that dice have to be rolled out in the open and rolls have to be verified by your opponent. When we were just starting out we would even give the reason for a re-roll "the weapons allows a re-roll on ones " etc.
I played vs this guy that really didn’t want his scarab swams to die. We had dice as wound markers and he would make his role close to them then pick up all the dice including wound marker, then later would move but not move the wound marker. I kept an eye on that and soon he tried to pick the wound marker dice up as if it was just a spilled dice. Other stuff too… was pretty tedious so the next game I brought the most op list I could to finish it quickly
I've only ever played 1 game of 40k so far but me and my little brother booked a beginners session at our local GW store, staff were amazing and we really enjoyed ourselves, however.... there was a part where i was winning comfortably but to make it more fun for my brother and myself in turn i let him off with some small things like a couple of moral checks and letting his Abbadon make his charge despite being an inch off... the staff thought it was good as it dragged the game out abit more and let us enjoy it more..... well one of the people whi happened to be browsing in the shop at the time were not happy at all, saying it is not in the rules, the game can be brutal so tough luck to my brother, i wouldn't stand for that if i was playing... blah blah blah.... really infuriating and petty 🙄
The biggest spike in cheating in my experience was when models with multiple wounds became commonplace in some armies instead of limited to only heroes and large models.
When there's a whole squad with each model having multiple wounds, it's incredibly easy to fudge things in "spreading the wounds out" more times than there actually are wounds in the unit, or assigning multiple taken wounds to a smaller number of models when it does come time to take casualties.
Dice markers for wounds on bases can always "accidentally" get nudged over or disassociated with their specific models, so even legitimately it makes it all very hard to track and easy for people to cheat.
I use a dice tray in casual games and we share the same dice. Definitely helps with keeping the dice roll cheating down because after a few games of cheating it gets old quick. Movement cheating still happens from time to time but I've noticed it's usually a honest mistake than a cheat but there's always 'that guy' out there.
This is what I experienced when I played WHFB a fair few years back:
Dice with gothic text numbers that were unclear, except to the guy whose dice they were.
Same person for club game never seemed to bother with written army lists.
Changing a character name or type
Costing up an army list for Warhammer FB but but not adding in the cost of the included magic items
Dice trays, even for friendlies, are mandatory imo
It just avoids every issue you get with them
If it bounces out of the tray it's foul and you reroll
Same, bought a large rectangular dice tray that's accessible from both sides from the table to avoid stray dice etc.
If you don't want to make the rolls into my dice try, you are more than welcome to roll in your own dice tray, as long as it's on the table.
This all started when my wife rolled 29 4+'s out of 32 dice when I was attacking her Great Unclean One. Twice in the same game.
Cheating is usually most prevalent at the highest of levels in any game. Not all high level and tournament players are cheaters, but they are more likely to do it because "I worked hard and deserve the win" and so on.
Another story
Opponent has turn 1
A unit is deployed right at the edge of the deployment zone.
5" movement + 3" advance.
I remeasure after his movement
His unit was more than 9,5" from the deployment
I asked him how do you move 9.5" from deployment with 8" of movement
He got mad
Yeah, those dudes are sh*t heads, always call out my friend and if people get mad immediately that's a tactic used to get you to back down and that means they know exactly what they did
At my local tournament it is required that you show the rule in ur book if ur opponent asks
I'm sooooo terrible at 40k that the joke is "if you have to cheat to beat me you have no business playing at all"
My best friend once intentionally brought 2000pnts to a 1500pnt game. In the same game he was vector striking with his hive tyrant, pivoting and moving like 3 times a movement phase, hitting the rear armor (actually hits side armor), was refusing to keep track of his wounds on his models with dice (said it was "ridiculous") and I would have to constantly watch and be on top of his dice rolls because he'd for example score two wounds with three dice, pick up all his dice and say "make three saves." I still play 40k with this guy 10 years later, but back then right after high school he was a terrible alcoholic and was in a bad place in life and he was just impossible to play with. I still beat him because I was playing Necrons right after the Wardcron codex came out, so there's probably another reason our games were BS.
When I got my first army done I was just so excited to show off (I played Tau and all my friends hate them) and I ended up beating my head against the wall trying to beat the custodes player, and eventually I started picking up more hits than I had. I still lost and nobody noticed but to this day I still have a bad taste in my mouth. Cheating isnt even as fun as losing honestly, its just stressful cause you put friendships on the line over plastic soldiers
Rules should be EBooks...so if you have a rule question and you want to confirm you just pull up the EBook, type said rule into the search bar and immediately get your answer, with any sort of modifications/additional information easily being linked to from there
My partner didn't cheated, but I learned to play Necrons since 7th edition and he got to play the game at 9th, so I did use 9th edition rules with him. The point is, I started noticing how his Space Marines were really killing my guys easily, even if I rolled dice and got 5 or 6 out of the 8 he killed, then I started to go over the 9th edition codex to corroborate his rolls and learned by surprise, he thought I wanted to play 7th so used 7th edition rules for his Space Marines (I didn't knew early because I avoid imperium as the plague) It was a chuckle anyways.
Then with 10th edition some numbers scrambled on my behalf and the most important was the leadership and the change of some units like Skorps, we realized at our 5th match that I been using their old 8" movement and damage sheets as well as attacking with the plasmacite, same with Deathmarks.
But ny favorite instance of him deliberately and I letting him cheat was when he pulled out his 1800pts army when I just wanted to play a chill little game and only brought about 1000pts, mind you a gladiator and Roboute Guilliman in there as long as shitton of intercessors and bikes. Food for my squads, the deathmarks planted on the far back and the two units of scarabs scrubbing away the life of his vehicles. He's bad at the game yet but I still try to teach him where he failed, things like putting all units exposed or wasting their Command Points on Re-Rolls for 3 dice out of the 20 instead of granades or overwatchs.
other people: Oh nyo, you forgot light cover one time...
Me and my friends constantly forgetting terrain rules for the first 4 turns: "well, we fucked that up..."
Before I got my dice tray I often wondered if I had shitty weighted dice that always rolled low because they’d slide across the table rather than rolling, not sure why but seeing the dice roll in the dice tray makes me more accepting that I just have rubbish luck.
I have the opposite issue with Transhuman, I tend to forget units that are primaris and can use that rule (I use a lot of firstborn and a few primaris)
WYSIWYG is the biggest barrier to tournaments. Cheating is completely unacceptable, however, if I make clear that this guy has a plasma gun and maintian that through the games, I should bot have to actually have that guy have a plasma gun, especially with the way GW stacks their boxes of models. You need multiple boxes just to field the unit you want to field with the guns they should be bearing. This is especially true in this day of single pose models. Look at the Ork Boyz. How many boxes of Boyz are you reasonably expected to buy to build a max strength shoota squad with only 2 shoota models per box? 15? Or is it reasonable to nominate that the slugga boys are also shootas and thus reduce it to 3 boxes required?
WYSIWYG can get fucked at that point.
I had an opponent when i first started overcharge his plasma rifles every time but rolled the dice with his bolters. I didn't think about it for my first couple games. It wasn't until i watched him play against somebody that knew better that I realized he had been blatantly cheating against me for a couple games. Never played with him again
Man, I really don't want to play competitively. Been in this for 12-13 years and I constantly hear about cheaters where in fair game, I've never had someone intentionally cheat against me ever. General rule: Make sure both players have access to knowledge needed of their opponent's army/special rules and weapons, make sure terrain and setup is not heavily in advantage for a single player, roll your dice in a way that everyone can see what you do, and most importantly: If someone asks you about what you just did, what unit is what and what special rule was what again, give them the information needed and DON'T LIE to them. If you've shown people the profile and special rules of a unit/weapon and they forget about it again and therefore undererstimate it, that happens. That's on them. But don't intentionally withhold vital information from your opponent when they literally asked for it. They should at least be allowed to know what equipment you have on your units, instead of you in the worst case deciding what has what based on the situation you're in, changing it mid-game.
Pretending cheaters are rampant to find a reason not to play competitively is weird.
By all means, avoid min maxing if you don't enjoy it. But don't make things up.
@@pkswarroom Neither did I pretend anything nor did I make anything up; where are you coming from here?
Like, what? What kind of a weird response is that?
@pkswarroom All I said was that I constantly hear about cheaters in competitive. I never said that there ARE a mass of cheaters there, nor did I say that I have myself EXPERIENCED a ton of cheaters there. I was simply expressing a sentiment many in this comment section have expressed: That it can be a problem. And it is one of multiple reasons I personally don't plan on going full competitive in my local scene. Your scene is different? Cool for you! But don't point a finger and call others a liar when they live on a different continent and talk about experiences in different surroundings, especially when they never claimed that the situation they hear about 100% applies to every place in the world. Besides: The vast majority of this comment is about what I'd consider basics for fair play, not a commentary on the actual amount of cheaters in the scene! Please don't make stuff up yourself after skimming through one or two sentences, especially not on your own comment section. In your video you present yourself as someone with a sound and understanding approach, maybe try to show that in viewer interactions too without blaming them for something.
Again, you are making excuses that aren't valid. I'm sorry but "I heard their are cheaters" is a weird excuse.
@pkswarroom Again, I am not telling people not to play competitively, I am mainly talking about what I expect from a fair game in general. Why is this so hard to grasp? And what's with your "weird excuses" trip?
I am ending this conversation now, I don't think it's possible to achieve any positive outcome with you here.
me and my group I play with tend to recite rules we're about to engage with, as horus heresy players our rules get a little more wordy than current 40k so for example every time we shoot with volkite we read off deflagrate just to make absolutely sure we're aware of how its going to play out and theres no room for misinterpretation, it's been really helpful with some of the weirder rules.
Base sizing for advantage is real cheat, you didn’t cover that is somewhat common but besides that you got all of the major big ones.
Lead beakie tactical marines on 28MM bases FTW! :)
Played a third edition tourny once, would have been right after codex Armageddon released, with a DA Deathwing army. Realized headed in to the last game I had fucked up and not been making my "hunt the fallen" rolls(I was about 14, it was an honest mistake). I went to the tourney organizer, and every opponent to offer a forfeit and apology. Not a single one of them would take the forfeit, especially the last one...
See there was an actual cheater in this tournament. He had been claiming a 5pt "witch blade" upgrade to his dark eldar let every troop re-roll wounds. He had pissed my last opponent off badly enough the man went and bought a DE codex, and called him on the cheating(what he was claiming to be an every troop 5pt upgrade was 50ish point leadership only thing). They let him keep playing, I think mainly because they knew what was fixing to happen.
Dark Eldar in 3rd where squishy. You put them in flyers and they where REALLY squishy. You run them out in front of 1700pts of terminator with TWO land raiders and a lascannon/missile pod dreadnaught.....
I effectively tabled him the second turn. He picked his shit up, and walked out without saying a word. I ended up using the gift certificate I won on some terrain that the LHS we where at still has :P
It is totally okay to use proxies, AS LONG as it is clear and fair to everyone in the game what represents what and that they're distinguishable. Should also represent the size, number, of the unit proxied. So if you want to use a whole proxy army, make sure that each unit is as close as possible to the unit it represents, write down somewhere what equipment is on what unit and most of all, make sure your opponent is okay with it. Don't use hardly distinguishable units without clearly assigned gear to cheese your way through, as in: "Oh yeah those guys actually are assault Terminators, they look exactly like the devastor team over there, but they're different. Also they have this and this and this equipment I didn't mention before...".
If you do this, shame on you.
In pretty much every other situation, a fair solution with your opponent can be found if you ask them.
The fact that Warhammer uses tape measures instead of a grid system is just unbelievably stupid. Why would you make such an important aspect of the game so imprecise and so unstandardized?
This is also hilarious cause its obviously not for the sake of immersion, having a grid under everything pales in comparison to the shockingly ugly unimmersive use of unpainted L-shaped terrain spam
Had this one tool that tried to use three index cards for tanks as proxies. He was always trying cheesy crap like that.
Proxying is hardly cheating now, is it?
Can you go into more detail on Obsuring Terrain? I've been dealing with another more experienced player at my LGS who has been having a hard time with obscuring terrain and line of sight. They play knights and treat the obscuring terrain as if the terrain itself dissapears as soon as they toe into it and shoot at targets that they don't have line of sight on because they treat every wall of the terrain as if it were no longer there. Am I wrong for thinking they still need to be able to see the unit that they are targeting?
You ALWAYS need true line of sight. Artillery weapons which specifically say they can shoot non LoS targets is the only way around it. What obscuring does is provide extra cover. If a terrain piece has the obscuring trait it means you can’t shoot through it, even if you can physically see the target. If you are inside the terrain you are no longer blocked by the obscuring trait and are back to basic true LoS. This is also true for units that want to shoot you. The last bit is that if your model has 18+ wounds it can’t be blocked by obscuring. However this doesn’t mean it gets to ignore it so everything else still gets to hide with obscuring and shoot you.
@@bensemusx thank you, that is how the rest of us have been playing it. It's caused a lot of unecessary stress in my playgroup.
If you touch a piece of obscuring terrain, the terrain still exists, but it no longer obscures models that you can draw a physical line of sight to. If you can’t draw Line-of-sight to a target, you still cannot shoot that target
@@warp-hammer thank you. Just for some reassurance and my own sanity is why I'm asking here. I'm glad to hear that the rest of us have been playing it correctly.
I don't think my friends have been cheating but there's been multiple games I've lost where I went over the rules in regards to some weird abilities they used to turn the tides and have had to point out that they shouldn't have been able to do what they did
Regarding timing on chess clocks, I try to play a 2 hour game every time, just so I can use the clock against my opponent if they're being a dick or have the *slow play* bug. It adds a little tension, but it's a good practice to be quick without rushing lol
My old hockey coach is telling you to pound sand cause "If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin!" ha ha ha xD
So, I've got a hell of a story for this. I'm playing this one guy in a casual league, essentially no prize, just for fun, (I think it was like $20.00 store credit or something.) There weren't official list checks because it was a casual league and people were supposed to learn as they play and were allowed to swap a unit here or there between rounds as it was new player friendly. We were talking a bit before the game and he bragged about how his sisters list had taken down a meta Dreadknight list with a tone of melta firepower in a previous round. I thought this was odd since a friend of mine playing Tsons got stomped by him a few rounds earlier and mentioned that he had allied in a bunch of Sisters of Silence and a Culexus Assassin. As I'm getting my stuff out, I mention the horde army I brought, and he goes "oh I know, I saw a match of yours a few rounds ago," then proceeds to put multiple units of flamers and blast weapons on the table. Clearly he was researching his opponents and completely rebuilding his list for every game. (The TO confirmed this with all his other opponents after the fact.) Even so, I'm a good sport about it, and try to roll with it.
First round goes off and he's forgetful of a few things, both for and against him so I try not to judge too hard. He tried to deep strike turn one, but then also forgets his FNP's on his mortifiers several times that I remind him of. The one that I finally called BS on was when he insists that his sisters can Rapid Fire like space marines. I tell him no, that's just a marine thing. He says he's positive that's how it works and I ask him to show me where in his codex it says that. He doesn't even pretend to check, and just goes, "oh, I must have misremembered." He then proceeds in the following turns to start rolling dice really fast whenever I turn away to take a sip of water, so I've got to start watching him like a hawk.
By the end of turn three, I'm super fed up with his BS and despite the cheating and list rigging the game is still neck and neck. Time's running low though so I'm trying to play faster. It's the end of his turn and I'm rolling some LD checks I roll for two squads quickly then I toss the die for the third realizing as it leaves my had that it's a critical unit that needs to pass. Before the dice even hits the table I shout "shit, I CP pass that one!" The dice comes to a stop, he looks at it, sees that it has failed, and goes "yeah, no, you already rolled it." Now, I'm not sure what the ruling would be in a legit tourney on that one, I could understand it being called either way, but in a casual event and after all his BS, I was just done with this guy. I call a judge over to deal with it rather than argue with this idiot any longer. So the judge rules in my favour, says I can keep the model for 2CP, and the guy gets super pissed off, to the point where the judge doesn't even want to deal with him (he was a newer judge and I could tell he hadn't dealt with this kind of thing before.) So eventually the judge caves and says "in the 40k rulebook it says if two people can't come to a decision, you roll a dice and whoever wins, you go with their ruling." We both agree and the roll comes up in my favour. This dude in his mid twenties throws a full on temper tantrum that would put my five year old to shame, calling the tournament unfair, that the organizers had no idea what they were doing, or how to play the game, asked my if that was how I liked to win all my games, then saying that he refused to play with people like me, scooped up his models and left the store. So, I got the win by default, and he got a lifetime ban from the store. (Due to both this issue and complaints against him from every other person he played in the tourney.)
It just astounds me, the gall and lack of shame that some of these people have, that they have to twist everything to their advantage to ensure a win and the second the tiniest thing doesn't break their way, it's all ruined. Time to move onto the next no effort win. Like, how do they even function in society, hold down a job or do anything that requires work or skill that they might not be 100% perfect at every time? On some level, I can understand cheating for a reward (it's a total scumbag thing to do for sure, but at least it makes logical sense, you get something out of doing it.) I just don't get why something that's supposed to be either fun, a test of skill, or both can possibly be either of those things if you're cheating? Boggles my mind to no end.
Oh, also after that, he sent me a follow up angry PM on Facebook (what we were using to organize our games) because I guess he didn't get it all out of his system the first time. Basically calling me a win at all costs cheater who was ruining the game, blah, blah, blah. I was going to tell him to get a life before blocking him, to find that he'd already premptivly blocked me, I guess his fragile ego couldn't even take a reply to his BS?
The most hilarious thing about this whole situation was that none of it even needed to happen. He originally missed the two week window for our match and I was given the win by default; but I talked to the TO to give us a 2 day extension so that we could actually play out our game because I didn't want to win that way. (Not knowing at the time of course the kind of person he was.) XD
I've never once played a table top game, and don't know any rules, but changing your army for each opponent seems like both a scumbag move, and cheating. Don't know how long it went on before he ran off like a cheating coward, but my hats off to you, sir/madam.
@@hippo5231 Yeah, in normal tournaments it would be. It was a casual event so people were allowed to tweak their lists by a unit or two between rounds if they didn't like how things were performing, but they were very explicit at the beginning of the league that the kind of list tailoring he was doing was not allowed.
Feels like dice trays should be supplied or sold at events, and that if one player requests for all dice to be rolled in the tray that they should all be rolled in the tray. DQ anyone who's against doing that cuz they're probably cheating
I think my favorite examples of not knowing the rules was in my first game of warhammer against a player who had recently come back to the game. Mainly they weren't allocating wounds properly, for example he had a squad of accursed cultists, some of those units have 3 wounds, so he was adding damage to all of them then leaving them at one wound so they wouldn't die. Then there was another time he took his allied war dog brigand and gave it sustain hits with dark pact. The rolled 2 sixes on the thermal spear melta gun or whatever its called and absolutely annihilated one of my tanks, that unit doesn't have the heretict astartes faction keyword.
My wife and I thought that was how wounds worked for our first 6-ish months playing. That was when CSM had 1 wound each, but Daemons of Nurgle had tons of multi-wound models. We were house ruling all kinds of crap to try to balance the game because I would only get one or two of her models killed before she would table me. I finally figured out what we were doing wrong while watching a game on UA-cam, and all of a sudden, our games got a whole lot more competitive.
same as dnd, every single player and dm have fucked up in a way that the rules explain, thats not cheating, rolling a 2 and saying its a 20 is cheating
Playing Yugioh back in the day, had a dude who played Penguin Knight as his main strategy, which (IIRC) had the flip effect of returning 1 card to each players hand when flipped. So he would lay it out in facedown defense mode, I'd attack it, it would flip and he would return it to his hand...rinse and repeat for the whole game...that isn't how that works though, since his card was attacked it should have been sent to the graveyard...(this was confirmed later on but man was I annoyed because he was such a smug SoaB the whole time we played)
I've seen a few videos where instead of rolling on the table, people will roll the dice around in their open palm and then just place them down on the table, always getting good rolls. Whats to stop them rolling until they see a load of 1s and then placing them down so they get 6s?
I’ve seen similar- dice “throws” that are actually just low tips from a hand that will clearly drop onto a 6.
Should we insist on a roll from a cup into a tray, or a drop down a randomising dice tower?
That's called "Dice Dropping" and is a good way to get banned from a casino.
Great video, with the modelling aspect, I am very much a fluff player, so some of my models are taller than they should be due to basing or in different poses. However due to the nature of my lists they are not overly competitive anyway.
Modeling that puts you at a disadvantage is allowed, just not modeling that gives you an advantage. As far as I can recall anyway.
They really need to go back to 4th. Edition line of sight rules and area terrain. You couldn't model for advantage because of how units were categorized. True line of sight is fucking nonsense because games are already heavily abstracted to accommodate logistical problems.
Imagine a casual group of acquaintances, a couple pairs of friends, really, playing in each others basements 20 years ago. One of them is a serial cheat, Warhammer, RPGs, board games, whatever. I don't know which I hated worse... all that low key cheating he did over the years or that one time he threw an effing monumental fit and accused me of not knowing how to draw a parallel line in a Warhammer Fantasy game. I knew how to determine a parallel line, dammit, it was incredibly insulting and I will always remember that drama.
07:15 Being a newbie who was taught how to play by a more experienced guy and him unbelievably wipe the floor with me in an unbelievable over-powered way, just put me off the game. Our games were so unbelievably one sided thanks to his rules, that I genuinely did not enjoy playing him. His excuse?… “Magic”.
I can’t prove it but I also think his dice are loaded, I’ve never seen anyone roll so many 6’s. Maybe one day I’ll count them throughout a game and work out the odds, for example rolling a double 6 has a probability of 2.78%
I remember my first games in 8th, being completely overwhelmed with how my little plague marines move and what they could take on.
THe people who introduced me were long time vets and used their tourney lists against me, claiming " he needs to learn the game eventually".
Nothing is scarier as a whole army of tyrannids crossing the board in one turn and ripping everything apart, as the opponent rambles about special rules and abilities
I always get the opponent to look at my dice before I touch them so they know there isn't any funny business.
People who slow play and then aren't willing to talk out the game are trash. If we only get to turn 3 because you spent 2 of our 3 hours playing then we are going to talk out the rest of the game and make educated guesses at who will actually win.
Cheating is exhausting. The "ghost inches" when measuring movement or charges is something I've encountered in many wargames. Either by doing the front to back trick or sliding the measuring stick while moving the unit subtly.
Some of these issues Warmachine MKIV fixes through it's rules.
1. Slow Play: Warmachine uses a Deathclock (chess timers) for competitive play. It is your responsibility to clock back to your opponent. So your opponent clocking to you when you are rolling saves but you not clocking back to him when you're done is on you, not your opponent. However, good sportsmanship would be to say "hey you forgot to pass the timer back." if you notice your opponent is running their clock while it's your turn.
2. Movement fiddliness: In MKIV the infantry movement rules have you move one model, then place the others within 2" of it. It's much faster and very easy to check if shenanigans occurred by holding a widget over the model that moved.
3. WYSIWYG: Only cohort models have options for their kit, and those options have point values. If you try to mess with your options between rounds it will mess with your army point value potentially making your army illegal. Plus the official app is free and has a feature to let you share lists to your opponent's app easily so they can review your list before starting. Since there are only a few cohort models, it's easy to check that your models have and are using the weapons the list says they are.
4. Modeling for Advantage: In Warmachine model volume is determined not by the physical model but by its base size. Every model's "visibility" is determined by a cylinder drawn from the base up a number of inches depending on base size. So your models get to look as cool as you want without that screwing up your ability to play the game by giving you an unfair advantage/disadvantage. The fact that Warhammer doesn't do this frankly boggles my mind.
These are just a few of the things that popped into my mind while watching this (admittedly) somewhat old video. But just more reasons why I prefer playing Warmachine even though I do enjoy Warhammer too. Anything that inhibits BS players from cheating or taking advantage is great IMO.
Why is it such a huge problem in 40k with the WYSIWYG? In the LOTR table top people just say that their 20 spearmen are archers and most are fine with it.
It goes back to early tournament days when armies had 3 unit choices and 2 types of guns. It has just grown with the game and is fucking ridiculous. IF GW insists on WYSIWYG, they should provide the required models in the boxes in the numbers required. Needing multiple models with a gun you get one of in a box makes it either impossible or ridiculously expensive to run the unit you want to and it prohibits experimentation as, unless 100% magnetised, it is not possible to swap out weapon options.
@@AndrewFishman One thing that I don't understand. in the current IG Codex, you can pick between 1 Plasma soldier, 1 rifleman or 1 vox caster with las gun.
But with the box you can easily make 1 voxcaster and still get 1 plasma soldier (by replacing the Melta with a Plasma rifle).
Heck, i was even able to give the sergeant the bolter, even though they share the same arm for the plasma rifle.
And my Leman Russ tank that I got, I build it like I saw it on the box, where the side weapons are different, which I'm not even sure if that's allowed or not.
Getting into AOS myself for the first time with my other half.... takes quite a bit of getting used to and learning the rules...... 40k terrain rules look even worse without the added complexity XD