Can we all take a moment to appreciate how insane it is to spend $250 to partake in an Alpha for an MMO made by a developer who has literally no precedent at making anything good before?
Donate it to Judes children's hospital. Just cause you have excess money doesn't mean you should abuse it. I came upon a large amount of money in my 30s after living in public housing my entire life and it truly showed me the value of money and the duty of respecting what I have and not throwing it away. I choose to help others and you should as well. Or be judged at the end like all of us will. Do you.@@reishin6
I have learned two things from watching KiraTV: 1. You can't manifest an MMO into existence by throwing money at it. 2. MMO players are the number 1 copium addicts.
Dunno about the rest of you, but to me it's like, "Just wait till games are finished and released." What are kids doing, paying $250 to play-test broken maps for pie-in-the-sky indie games? Especially now, with the indie renaissance on the horizon, there's no need to do these almost-always dodgy crowdfunding schemes. Make devs commit! Wait for the release.
There is such a gigantic backlog of proven amazing games that I can just wait until a few years after release and pick up a game for 50% off or more. FOMO used to get to me when I was younger but I don't care anymore.
It's 110$. What about let people do what they want with their money and time? :D Nobody who actually plays this game, agrees with narc. Go and play it with your friends. It's best mmo experience you will have in 20 years.
lets say 1000 people bought the alpha $100k thats it? hes been playing a scam for 5 years and the gain is $100k? this sounds stupid and the game looks %70 finished. check out streams at twitch.
As an AAA game dev of 10 years that is not what a vertical slice is Asmon. Vertical slice is a "slice" of the game on its basic mechanics and including a beautiful corner for the best potential of the visuals. What the devs did was prototyping and prototyping is preproduction not mid production and definitely not post production with the exception of adding new features post launch
It is a vertical slice by definition. A vertical slice is a prototype that's polished well beyond the rest of the project designed to show people the potential of the product, they're thrown together with pre-existing assets and mechanics designed to secure funding, they are not at all intended to actually be in the game as they're a literal tech and project demo.
@@SekiberiusWelkesh As a programmer who worked with game devs, the OP is correct and you are wrong. A vertical slice is finishing one tiny section to demonstrate it. This was not present at all, the shown things are meant to be completed at the time they are shown. This was a 'bullshot' or a 'mug's eyeful' visuals intended to convince the buyer it is more functional than it really is. A vertical slice would have feature complete content, gameplay, etc. One quest in a single finished location for example. X minutes of finished gameplay content. They didn't advertise it as a vertical slice, they provided only some clips not a playable section and claimed they had working weather mechanics that are not implemented yet edited them in. A vertical slice doesn't get removed from a game either, why undo work? It was never in the game.
@@SekiberiusWelkesh dev here. a vertical slice is meant to be a mostly completed slice of a cake thats not yet finished. It should be a section of the game that has mostly finished content albeit buggy and its fine if some parts are unfinished but overall its not meant to be "thrown together" - the cake slice should fit in the rest of the cake once complete. it"s part of the overall experience. You and asmon are wrong this time its okay.
@@SekiberiusWelkesh i been part of 4 vertical slices so far so that aint true because the company with a vertical slices has to prove to the publishers that they can populate the world with their own art and assets
@@joelhodoborgas Because the desert is literally not true. Narc literally stood at the very edge of the desert, positioned in such a way to show the worst looking place on the desert.
if you put up $150 buck support fee and say this will be in the alpha and people pay and its not.......i dunno how you can defend it...... he needs to speak very carefully if he wants people to pay to test the game.. otherwise make it a free test and it is what it is...
As a game dev, I can confirm, Zack doesn't know what a vertical slice is. A vertical slice is in fact a showcase of an in-development project which focuses on some specific area/feature/or mechanic to essentially demo how it will look/could look/or should look. Nine times out of ten, this is done by adding temporary polish to work that is already present. So to say that it "wasn't real" is admitting to effectively false advertising. A vertical slice is not the same as a throwaway prototype.
The problem is Narc didnt even paraphrase what Steven said but misrepresented it entirely. They didnt admit it wasn't real they explained they are in game assets and the show case was ingame engine using ingame assets, the show case was a opportunity to show what they had in a polished video not to show that the desert was in a playable state for thousands of players, yes they could have potentially clarified that further but hindsight is 20/20 and the video was to show off the desert not to explain what a showcase means exactly. The whole issue with Narcs video which a lot of people will miss unless they already know about a lot of things around Ashes is that its very difficult to impossible to know hes being dishonest in his representation. FYI Oasises and a river with treets does exist in the desert biome but Narc specifically chose to show the Dunes because it would be what is considered to be the most barren. The thing is someone who isnt familar with ashes wont know Narc is misrepresenting so much its bordering on lying to prove his point about certain aspects. Like how he paraphrased Steven to say the showcase wasn't real because its dramatic and emotive. UA-cam videos with drama also usually get more views than balanced more constructive critique so Narc is motivated to drum up as much drama and emotion he can as it earns him more money and growth. Look at flankers video about it and he shows how Narc has leaned into drama and negative baiting for the last year.
@@IAmMorix he's covered the game for more than 4 years, the game has been in "development" longer than you have been in high school, anyone with any reasonable critical thinking skills can see this is another mmo "proof of concept" scam.
I love how as soon as people start calling Asmon out for his blatant disingenuity, he picks a follower at 18:48 to make an example out of. He immediately starts stuttering while claiming he doesn't have an AoC referral code (as if that's the only incentive someone might have for glazing this hot mess of a game). After they point out the obvious double standards, all Asmon could respond with were "Yeah, because I know the most about this", a few incomplete sentences, a strawman statement ("Are you calling me a scammer?!"), followed by a ban. A few minutes later, he decides to demonstrate a fine example of irony by saying, "I'd rather have a person speak with freedom, rather than watch every single word they say". For someone who tells his audience not to eat d's in his every other stream/video, Asmon sure seemed to have a hard time following his own advice in this one.
he's a rat of course, rules for you but not for him, do as he says not say what he has done. he doesn't understand the damage he can cause because he is a rat that thrives among mice, when everyone else becomes rats then that's when suddenly he wants to make appeals to morality and ethics, only a matter of time.
He’s like that with everything. He will ban anyone who says anything even slightly against him while simultaneously saying people should speak out when something is wrong.
Yea because wow is a 20 year old game and they have a long storied history is fuckery. He explained that they doesn't grade this studio the same he does blizzard and Ubisoft. That makes sense those studios are multigame multi decade juggernauts with 1000's of people and have for years and years fucked people. I'm not saying Intrepid is innocent either, but the 2 are not exactly the same.
One thing I’ll never agree with Asmongold on is his acceptance of people doing shady things to make a profit. Also makes me unlikely to trust any business venture he has or may embark on.
Zack shouldn't make it so obvious that he has financial obligations to defend this garbage between Intrepid and his various companies. This is exactly why i miss pre-Legion Asmon - someone who didn't have business pressure to defend bad practices and always said what needed to be said. Hate this corporate crap.
He said he wasnt being paid so chances are he isnt being paid. Just sounds like he's being unrealistically overskeptical of Narc's criticism for some bizarre reason.
@@GloomSkullCandy 90% of the shit posted on this channel is just culture war crap. His content is no different in taste to something that Hasan would make, except he swings the other way politically. His content has absolutely been shit since the days of Legion. I say this as someone who used to watch Asmon a fair amount back in the day, and someone who only jumps in to mock the over politicisation of content these days.
Like around 14:00 are we just going to forget how 1 of the biggest selling points for Ashes of Creation and it's development is how Steven talked about the lack of transparency and false promises from video game developers and vowed to not be the same way...?
How is he not very upfront about the stuff, i mean can you point at any other Developement wich is open like that on this scale ? Also he constantly is active in the Community commenting stuff and answering peoples Questions and they make Monthly Streams i mean what do you want more. Even the Alpha has no NDA and you have litterally Thousands of Viewers watching the Alpha Stage of the Game trough Streams all Day long. There could allways be a better Communication, in fact i think its still one of the bigger problems to be more clear on Stuff but its hard in an ever changing developement like here to have clear statements about everything wich can be subject to change or scrapped alltogether for a complete new approach for example wich will then throw off people most likely.
@@Nevoras Show me one example of when during the showcases Steven uses the words "vertical slice" or explains that what is being shown isn't in the game but some assets they put together strictly for a presentation. This is like (not as bad but similar idea) what Anthem did with their E3 trailer being purely made up at that point and none of what was shown was actually in the game yet, or even would be. The devs themselves didin't know what they were making at that point.
Vertical slices are not supsoed to be used for the consumer it's for investment companies, you also have to clearly state it. The videos in question were used as a prototype for what is coming not a vertical slice very disengeuos.
Sounds like the girl in the video who’s apparently the head of comms needs to do a better job communicating with the community 😂 I haven’t played the game, but I wonder if the player base is mostly dudes. Having a girl run community comms could effect the translation of information to the community. I’ll tell my husband something and he doesn’t understand what I’m saying, yet I can say the same sentence to a girl and they understand instantly. Not sure if that applies to the game or not
@@hopefulart This is an interesting insight. I'm not sure if in this case the CM's ruin the game (because I'm unfamiliar with AoCs CMs) but this is something to consider, especially with the history of some CMs not doing so hot. (Helldivers 2 as a recent example.)
@@jimjones9900 if he's really paid to shill, someone would've pointed this out long time ago with a proof. he's just trying way too hard to not burn the bridge, happened a few times in the past. You really think someone pulling 20-50k viewers on twitch would lie about being sponsored?
I mean... Zack is clearly telling you why he is biased afterwards. Its a communication error and Steven is at fault for that and has to own up to it. This might be to lack of experience as devs, but wasn't performed intentionally...
@@Loxly-ti4sqthere’s no way we could know that he’s paid, whatever goes on between Steven and Asmon’s LLC isn’t public record. Unless it all comes crashing down in a lawsuit or through leaks.
3:51 Asmongold's logic is misleading - the fact that the youtube video exists doesn't disproof that the company is controlling the narrative. that's not the logical conclusion, sorry. two claims can exist simultaneously without that fact by itself being a conclusion for any kind of relation between them. And Asmongold uses the word "obviously" ("they are obviously not controlling the narrative...) so loosely that it's mind-blowing.
Lol, around 38:00 Steven messages Asmon and Asmon goes "I want to see this game to be successful." Says the guy "I don't care if a game fails I can make content on it." Totally financially invested in AOC.
If the company wanted to control the narrative (as in a more aggressive way), then I'd assume they'd take action to copyright strike the video like how some other game dev studios tried to against UA-camrs. Added onto this, of course they'd try to control the narrative to some extent, that's after all what companies do and one of the reasons companies have HR & PR departments.
Yea his arguments are bad this video because he is clearly being bias he’s trying to look for the best case for Steven in every argument only agreeing with narc on point that arent to detrimental to the game if true
How is he wrong? they aren't controlling the narrative. So you are saying Steven wants people to think he's a scammer. If he was controlling the narrative wouldn't you think this video wouldn't exist or be taken down?
this guy is one of the biggest youtubers/streamers and owns multiple companys, even if he was part of the referall program (which he isn't) he wouldn't give af
I love how asmon is walking on eggshells with this. He is so biased in his take and defending the game than actually seeing what it is, a 250 dollar fomo alpha that leaves a bad taste in people's mouth.
Because its a an alpha, it was always meant to be shit since its an unfinished, unpolished product. You were never paying 250 to buy the game, but to support the development of the game. When you apply the standards of a finished product to an alpha of course its gonna look bad.
Anyone can make that desert in 10 min in unreal engine, straight up 10 min or less. --Open unreal --> New level --> create landscape --> go to quixel bridge and get a sand texture for free --> apply said texture to landscape --> use modeling tool to create some dunes or if you want to spend 5 extra minutes just use a height map for the landscape or some noise vairations to make it look more natural. --> done.
Aye, Asmon is no different from that girl that was pushing crypto scam. He doesn't understand it's a scam 😂 I wouldn't even show my mates something like this, nevermind release it to the world and charge for it. Just some bullshit anybody can throw together. We all know they didn't use the assets because they couldn't afford the correct licence to allow them to make profit from them 😆 30 million funded my ass. Pure scam. Quarter of a billion to make it eventually 😂
I have no horse in this race; my only good faith explanation is that the dev doesn't want to actually share the advancements he made on the desert until release.
Asmon is 100% either covering for the dev because he likes him or because there's some sort of financial connection between them. The game has always screamed scam and now that it's being put out in the open, Asmon is running defense.
@@AuxxiliaryATC Yep, all my friends would laugh anytime someone mentioned AoC. This game always didn't come off right at all and has had plenty of controversy despite essentially nothing happening in the game. Beautiful graphics before gameplay is a bad sign. Good ol UE slop.
@@AuxxiliaryATC Absolutely it has always screamed a scam. Tiny dev team with no experience wanting to make a revolutionary mmo? Yeah never gonna happen. AAA can't do it, a team of a handful of people can't do it.
@@AuxxiliaryATC One of the lead devs was literally a scam artist before joining the team. The game also constantly used FOMO to sell overpriced founder packs, used crowdfunding, and promised things that they could never realistically achieve. Anyone who has played MMOs for long enough knew that their node system was a joke. PVP-focused MMOs never last long or have large audiences because people will grief or it will be overrun by a few hardcore guilds. They constantly promised that they were the ones to finally crack the code and would deliver something revolutionary, but in reality this stuff had been done before. They constantly re-packaged things as being "new" and "revolutionary." Now it's becoming apparent that all they were over doing was asset flipping and putting in the bare minimum. Their combat system was always dated and now the entire game looks super dated due to how long its been in development. Adding to that the art style is just horrendous and generic. Finally, the founder seems more adamant on trying to sell you the game than actually developing it. Yes, games take money, however, most of the effort seems to be put on selling it. The game itself is unimpressive and mostly sold on promises which have never materialized. As it stands, people are finally starting to see through the marketing and realizing this is going to be another letdown at best and an outright scam at worst. It's basically Star Citizen in fantasy form, but they tried to rob their customers too blatantly.
I remember Steven saying they have fully funded AoC years ago but then sellling $250 packs for years is a little problematic. Plus steven made his money in the world of multi level marketing don't mind someone making money it's how you do it that matters. But then i said this years ago and hope to be proven wrong. Plus the cash grab battle royale was a clear conflict of interest.
@@estebanhughell709 the game development is fully paid for. Not the server upkeep. That's why mmos have subscriptions to keep server live. Instead they put a pay wall and a one time payment to play alpha.
Anyone dumb enough to buy this deserves it. I mean there's thievery and then there's tricking stupid people legally. From basically the first moment i looked at this years back it was obvious this was not anything special. Maybe I just have a keen eye from playing MMO's and games for 20 years though. There is 0 passion, plot, lore, quest design, unique NPC's animatios or ideas. Just basic unreal slop.
How?! Bro said its alll funded and you don't have to give them money, if you want we have keys for sale. If you would sell that yourself you're insane.
Also it wasn't a battle Royal mode it really just was a huge stress test for code letting everyone go bonkers to see what went wrong. If it was really a cash grab for money dude it would really have been released full price battle Royal years ago... It's really bad logic.
Giga L take from asmon standing defense for this obvious misdirection and lying. You are NOT supposed to show vertical slice for players EVER, thats something you take for the publisher and its supposed to be a PLAYABLE, FEATURE COMPLETE short segment. You dont know what vertical slice is
Its laughable that they mentioned NMS when even NMS made it as close as possible to what they had in launch, its fucking crazy how much he defends this shit.
Yep... its what the industry has butchered successfully what a Vettical Slice is now compared to what it was. The OP was right. What was made to get investment to showcase what the actual end product would be or contain now means a glorified Trailer of high concepts that most games could never obtain, run on a super computer to display graphics. This is why, as a consumer, you need to stop falling for the hype. I do not care if this is how business needs to be run to make a product. It is harmful to the consumer because the only time when it can be proved a lie in the grand scheme of things is when the product is released.
Nah, he's just consistent in his opinions and that makes people mad because they want to seethe about AOC. Also Narc is a literal piss baby seething about his golden goose not being able to earn him as much money as it did when it was popular. Asmon has always said, for every game, to just wait and play it when it's released. Nobody is forcing you to hype yourself up like dipshits just to inevitably be disappointed.
Sorry my friend is so bad at communicating that all the past teasers and showcases were just theoretical possibilities of an unlikely outcome we accidently charged you 250 bucks for.
I don’t have a problem with Asmongold not jumping on the « it’s a scam wagon » even though I think it is. At the end of the day its best not to accuse someone of doing something this bad without definite proof !
“Okay so the background here is actually the desert you find in the Alpha, which means it’s not misleading” Then why does the camera focus on the oasis and not those empty lands? Yes they showed the empty lands but in the backgrounds, which imply that they’re not what Steven wants the audience to focus on. He wants them to focus on these rocks and foliage and ecosystem
Its what serial entrepreneurs do with investors. They sell an idea that will be very profitable (usually something impossible that sounds right out of Star Trek), take in tens of millions, never produce anything, file for bankruptcy, a couple of years later come up with a new idea. Rinse and repeat. There have been 7 or 8 startups who claimed to know how to make lab grown meat that is better and cheaper than beef, took in a few billions to do it and they all closed without producing anything because there is simply no way to make it cost less than 10x of raising cows.
@@jpteknoman meats are subsidized by the government. humans don't have choice but to improve the tech. Every new tech is expensive like Nuclear Fusion. Doesn't mean we give it up on it.
Dont worry people are gonna praise Sharif after 10 years for "not giving up on the game" cause he obviously didnt mean what he said and he is just being pressured because of all the expectations.
I feel like Steven here shouldn't be cutted any slack, I don't care about what a "vertical slice" is, if you're showcasing a game, while selling access to the game, and what you're showing is not in the game, you're missleading on purpouse, even if you don't want to treat is as a scam, it's at least false advertising, they're showing things that are not in the game, and talking about it as if it was, and then selling access to that game implying it will be like shown, and then silencing anyone that talks about it. So there is no thing as being too harsh to them, they tryed to misslead players, so they diserve any backlash they get.
You said it doesn’t matter what size the developer studio is and how hard it is to make a game, we don’t make excuses for games not delivering on what they promised. You really change the way you think all the time and it’s annoying.
Yeah he flip-flops and contradicts but if you bring it up he moves the goalpost. Usually he is solid but he is being intellectually dishonest defending these giys
I usually respect (even if not agree with) Asmon's opinion on things. However, this is not the case. That's a bit painful to see someone just bending his standards and values in favor of someone who he wants to like regrdless of any his missteps.
I would not call that desert part a "vertical slice". If they really only added the sand and the dunes of the desert, leaving it mostly empty, that is just the bare minimum. Wouldn't a vertical slice have a small piece of most systems, and not just sand?
It actually does. Narc only showed the Not so developed Part, since He has some Personal Problems with Steven couple of Videos before He showed the Showcase Part of the desert
Idk why Asmon is being such a chill, if almost everything was indeed fake assets and stuff, isn't it kind of a scam? I just don't understand how it isn't at least fake advertising.
Asmon has to take the high horse because he's a streamer built fully on ego. He cannot be wrong about something so obviously stupid even when he clearly is. He will act like nothing happened and then make fun of it like he didn't garble their nuts for years. Just like rich, tectone, gamblewrecks, anyone else?
Wtf is a "fake asset"? Lmao. If it's in the game, it's real. Assets are literally made to be bought and put in games to be used. If they're low-quality, say that, but there's no such thing as "fake assets".
The new business model for gaming is to sell unending development cycles and never finish a product. UA-cam just announced a price increase for premium, btw.
put 100 developers in a project , release a uncomplete version and only keep 10 developers there forever trying to do a impossible task , move the 90 developers to another project and repeat 5 times , now you have 5 unfinished games that takes years to get any changes but 3 times the revenue
I swear they just jacked it up not too long ago. I guess they are making progress on Ad blockers and are now using the price because you have fewer and fewer options, all while the ads are getting longer, more invasive, and also advertising outright snake oil.
Good luck to them 😂 the largest by far entertainment market clearly isn't enough for them. I've kept my physical media from the 80s till now, I'll not be stuck for things to play.
FOMO is an anti-consumer practice, Intrepid can use that practice as much as they want but they have to live with the consequences. Cause, and effect. Intrepid also lied about their Alpha2 keys which they also have to live with. In my opinion, this youtuber shouldn't stop making videos about AoC just because it took a U-turn. He should keep doing his job as a content creator and keep others informed... If we take the "I quit" out of the equation it's an informative video, and people need that!
It's funny how every time when there is a "miss communication" devs are always making money from it. Of wait, of course it's miss communication, Steven is his buddy. How silly of me.
WRONG. They actually stepped back from the original prize for the alpha after being called out by the community. Originally only the alpha was covered in the current package and people said that is too much. And within days they agreed, included the beta, a month of launch play time and 15$ of cosmetic store value. Granted all that does not really cost them anything but still, now the 120$ pack is 2+ years of play time which is far less per month than any other MMO that has a monthly sub.
Very rare asmond L DAMN what do they have a family member of his hostage?!! 💀 any other game did this it would’ve been an hour long THIS GAME IS A 100% SCAM not him spending the entire time throat boxing devious devs
Im sorry Asmon but AoC has been copium for years. Ive always found its strange hes adamantly supported and minimizes the crappy things that happen around this game. Its been like 4 years of let down and copium and he still cant call it what it is. His entire argument is basically, Well yeah theres a lot of shitty stuff going on. Its unfortunate. But no one wants it to be true or be a scam. So lets just wait and see guys. I dont know why he has such a hard on for this game in particular. Nothing really makes it anything special honestly.
It takes a long time to create an mmorpg. It's an alpha and it's not even half finished yet. These people are acting like this is a beta test. That being said I haven't bought an alpha key and I won't. I'll wait for the full release and if it never comes out or it doesn't suck I've only wasted a few hours watching videos about the game lol.
@jaredc5169 don't sell a product if you can't handle honest criticism or being called a scam. They sold a product, an expensive one and now don't want the consequences that comes with that, cute
idk if youve played it but i do actually think its special. has the best combat ive felt in a mmo good community nice systems all within an alpha. ive had more fun playing ashes then wow for a long time
Paid alpha testing is a ridiculous concept. In the past, companies compensated alpha testers for their time and effort, and beta versions of games were distributed for free. Now, the roles are reversed-players are actually paying to test incomplete games. This shift explains why so many games today are subpar. Developers exploit the enthusiasm of eager gamers, charging them to play unfinished products and claiming their feedback is valuable, even when many testers lack the gaming expertise to provide meaningful input. It’s a system that prioritizes profit over quality. Game developers also need to remember that it’s their game, not the players’ game. Developers shouldn't cater to every complaint from players or constantly tweak their vision to appease a vocal minority. It’s not the developer’s job to “beat” the player; it’s the player’s job to overcome the challenges the developers design. This dynamic is what makes great games memorable. If developers back in the day had caved to constant whining and demands like some do today, classics like Super Mario Bros. and The Legend of Zelda wouldn’t have stood the test of time. Great games require strong creative direction, not endless compromises driven by noisy feedback. And it is kind of a heated topic.
@fabucla The vast majority of feedback I see, around 99%, is driven by self-interest-focused on benefiting a specific class, role, or playstyle to give players an edge in gameplay. Rarely is the feedback about making the game more challenging or improving the overall experience for everyone. That's why they need to bring back paid alpha testing, not pay to alpha test. People who were paid to do a job versus people who want an advantage? Which one do you think is gonna be more profitable? In the long run?
Spot on! "Hype riders" is what I like to call the current business model. It used to be that enthusiasm for a game happened after it came out and blew everyone out of the water with how good it was, making it successful. Nowadays, developers try and artificially create that same hype with promises and "industry showcases" that are nothing more than a complete fabrication. I understand Asmon wants Ashes to succeed, I do to. But my trust in the project has been significantly diminished. Thank god I never paid for the alpha.
Depends on the game and scope and the intent. Ashes isn't being funded by venture capitalists or an AAA publisher -- they do not have indefinite slush or utilising quarterly profit margins from other products to fund the development. So no, they cannot afford to pay 1,000 people to test their R&D ventures; it's just not viable nor sensible. However, you're right that AAA publishers having paid early access absolutely is exploitation.
Because people like narc spend years and money anyway. Narc while being critical, he also perpetuated the whole process. 4 years of his life.... He's to deep.
Exactly this. We shouldn't accept "indie devs" putting in zero effort and relying on people paying them $250 to A) fund their game and B) QA test their proof of concept. And I say this as someone who's paid $150 for Escape from Tarkov back in 2017, and now consider it the best FPS ever made so far. The reason? BSG, the developers, provided a decent product at first and didn't promise the world throughout the years of development. Even before they made EFT, they had a smaller (free) game called Contract Wars that they used to showcase their ability to make a good multiplayer shooter. EFT is not a perfect game even today, and it's had its fair share of controversies, but I feel like I've had my money's worth with the game. Ashes of Creation may not necessarily be a scam per say. The devs, including Steven, may have the best intention, but it's pretty clear from an outsider's point of view that they're shooting for the moon... with a slingshot. And I think that's the problem with many MMOs nowadays. Every single one of them wants to compete with WoW and the success its been building both monetarily though their subscription model, but also the two decades of development. It's just an impossible task if you ask me. They should focus on innovating where WoW still hasn't, rather than trying to mimic what Blizzard is doing just to cash in.
@@Kewlioe Oh you will have to excuse us who have been scammed by hundreds of games in the last decade. Its not a big deal for Asmon to lose money on a game so of course he isnt as passionate about making sure people are held accountable.
@@ABanksy Yeah i know basically every crowd funded mmo has been a scam but all he did during the video was come at it with a neutral stance, im not defending the game either but its insane to assume he has money invested
No, people turn on games and creators not because it diverges, but because it's clear it's either massive incompetence or malice. Being invested in a project in development for years, being lied to for years about what's being worked on, and then finally being revealed a steaming pile of dung, is going to make people upset.
Or.... or.... R&D is difficult and tech development and engineering is not as easy as people think. The problem is that most of today's generation is used to copy-pasta, asset-flips, and assume every game that goes beyond a two year dev cycle is a "scam", when that's not the case at all. The major issue is that the industry is in a creative-lock right now where everyone at the top is just recycling derivative concepts on mostly stock engines. In order to break out of that, you have to go back to the concepts of the 1990s, where R&D and bold creative ventures ruled the day. We do not have that now. The only two games looking to push those boundaries and step outside of the box as Star Citizen and Ashes of Creation. But because R&D is hard, long, and arduous, people assume that they are just "scams".
@@Billy-bc8pk none of this matters because the developer should have then said, hey these are slices of what we want the game to be at release, not talk like this is what they are currently working on. you are really missing the entire point of what people are complaining about. if the person had been honest that the images were what the game should be when finished it wouldn't have been as bad because at least he was being honest. you cannot defend this kind of stuff in any business enterprise
@@Billy-bc8pk I've done project management and development long enough to know the red flags, the red flag of course is lots of promises and very little results. You do realize YEARS is a long time right? You do realize that things can be delivered weekly right? When a dev keeps promising things and nothing happens, it's because they're either incompetent and unable to deliver or they're taking you for a ride (for money).
Asmon was insufferable. I don't even have a dog in this fight, but holy shit. ~28 minutes in, the developer implied the content creator's mental health was to blame for his foul mood rather than anything the developer did. This is some S-tier gaslighting and should never be publicly done even if it were the case. Asmon is at his best when he updates his position based on new information.
Hate to break it to you man, but this is what Steven does. The only content creators left for them are all yes men, and the ones who leave like Narc did all get the "well you're just being mental" treatment. He's done it before and he's done it again.
14:23 A vertical slice is a fully playable portion of a game that shows the developer's intended player experience. It's a proof of concept for stakeholders before they agree to fund the rest of the game. Its got to be playable first
Man banned a chatter for calling him out on being extremely biased. Even the examples you brought have no grounds. BMW was in production for 6,5 years and came out GotY sold 20+million copies with a budget of 70m according to bloomberg (this all being that 1 copy was/is way still cheaper than instances of 250 for AoC). Ashes of Creation has been in production for 10 years and doesn't have anything to show for it.
He didn't 'call him out for being extremely biased' he accused him of being on the payroll and defending a scam, not the same thing by a long stretch. If you are going to make such accusations, you'd better offer evidence and there was none, so what we got was a viewer insulting a creator on his own channel.
The literal thousands of alpha testers in an incomplete but functioning world is nothing to show for it huh. I'm in one of the largest guilds the Alpha 2 AoC community has atm and they're doing all sorts of regional node development activities and progressions. Do us a favor and just stop commenting about a game you care nothing about, you won't be missed. The game mechanics and designs they promised are RIGHT THERE, and people still call it a scam. You're no MMO fan, you're a spiteful loser that can't be happy that even one dev in existence is trying to bring an MMO worth your time into reality. I hope you find peace. Also, FYI a single player game does not compare to an MMO in how long it takes and how much it costs to develop. lmao 6.5 years for a SINGLE PLAYER GAME and you think a Multi-thousand player MMO of this scale would come out anywhere close to the same time.
Ashes of Creation marks all the boxes of MMO scam. Prepaid alpha, bait and switch environments, missing features that were implied to be in the game, banning users and locking posts. Last year Asmon watched a video about mmo scams. How does he now ignore every red flag?
because narc is misleading his audience. dont get me wrong the desert isnt great but he showed the dunes which have nothing in them not the rest of the desert that has stuff
@@omensoffate In the video, he was intentionally showing the very edge of the map. There is a large portion of the desert that has seen some development and it isn't just empty sand dunes such as what he shown.
Asmon must have some Ashes of Creation sponsorships coming up or something haha. @38:20 i wonder if he will ask the real questions or is this just another for views stunt
Ashes of Creation has been in dev for over 9 years now and it barely looks like a demo concept. If you pay into it, you're willingly losing money. Maybe in another 10-20 years AoC will live up to your fantasy. 😂
No matter how promising a game looks, people who pay for games before they’re released deserve what happens to them. Before 2010, we had amazing games without spending a single cent upfront.
I know its extreme example and its single player game but i bought divinity original sin 2 in early access 1 year before release, and baldur's gate 3 early access 3 years before the release and both ended as Masterpieces. But i must say i was SOOOOO angry when Baldur's gate 3 took 3 years in early access instead of maximum 1 year. There must be some kind of industry rule should be implemented by Steam, Microsoft, Sony or whatever by who has enough power so they can sell early access maximum 1 year before releases. Absolute maximum. This can prevent many problems about Early access games and scams. There will still be rotten apple who will try to scam but numbers will be minimum.
I understand and accept you are 100% correct. However, when it comes to MMO's there is a problem of funding. MMO's are in bad shape right now, they are "played out" and have had a number release and be commercial flops. They are also insanely expensive to make and take a long time. Getting one funded is near impossible. Therefore an MMO fan has been ripe for being scammed. They recognise the only way to see the game they want is to crowdfund it, but this leaves them wide open for disappointment. Most games during development get changed or are stopped altogether and crowdfunded MMO's are no different - leaving you wide open to the "scammed" accusation.
Absolutely. But every now and then, you do get something nice out of it. I backed Wasteland 2 and 3. Got two good games. Then InXile sold out to Microsoft and then fell off the planet. But hey, still got two good games. But I do think we should make a distinction between taking a risk on Crowdfunding and Pre-Ordering from a established well funded studio.
I told you. those $120 alpha keys were sold because they lost so much money on making the game and they were about to roach out. they had to make the money back with the keys.
My guess would be more like to cover the Server Costs wich will be running till Release for every Alpha Tester troughout Betas etc now. They even Changes the Phase Packs cause players wanted more stuff included in them, before that they where only Acces for Alpha, no Betas no Gametime etc litterally for the testers that actually wanted to help. When you make the maths the price kinda covered the Alpha Phase length for Servers. I bet they changed it cause players cried and wanted more plus having access to the "game" to play it - they took the loss on money and added the Beta and stuff to the Packs wich will have longer Serveruptimes then. Still its not much Release Gametime thats why i really dont understand people... They should have waited for Beta Packs in a few years cause i bet those will have more actual Gametime etc in them than those Alpha Phase ones and the Game will be in an actual playable state by then but whatever... ~ I dont think they have Money Problems at the moment but depending on how long the Developement will take there might be one in the future.
@@CozyHumanoid i doubt that it would be that long my guess would be maybe 4-6 years. They will have a Subscription after Release and he still has his Company making Money so there is a kind of Buffer even without us. And im betting there will be some more Sales comming in those years so it should be fine. Time will tell we will see.
@@CozyHumanoid It's never gonna come out, and if by some miracle it does it'll immediately flop because it's built on the same outdated genre conventions as every other MMO. A game this size has to draw in a massive audience to make enough money to keep running, and the number of people who wanna do pointless "fill the bar" busywork and run the same boring dungeons and raids a thousand times for a minor gear upgrade or cosmetic is miniscule. MMOs as people know them are dead; without a complete rework of every single system you will never see anything on the level of WoWs early success ever again.
imagine how much time Stephen and the team waste prepping for a "showcase", when they could be cracking on with the development and getting the game release ready.
The way Tim Cain talked about 'vertical slice' (in a context of Fallout demo) is that it's a functional, actually playable piece of content, not just smoke and mirrors to show in a video.
This, vertical slice does not mean pre rendered footage that doesn’t actually reflect the actual gameplay, and if that’s what they were going for then it should’ve been disclaimed at the bottom of the screen. Literally all serious game studios do that, but Intrepid isn’t that.
@rb7619 ive followed AoCs updates almost since the beginning and unless I'm remembering incorrectly Steven never said the demos of each biome was just a pretenders concept. He's always made it seem like it's a small piece of what they've already made for each biome (ill even be generous and say it's 80 to 90% of thr finished product with some pretenders pieces put in to flesh it out more). So essentially Steven was at best being disingenuous and at worst straight up lying about what they've accomplished in each update showcase. Like Narc showed in the vid, the desert section they added could have been made in UE5 in minutes and looked nothing like what was shown in the desert biome update over a year ago. Something smells fishy, im sure they're making the game (obviously theres playable part already) but i think they're way further behind then they've ever indicated to the potential playerbase
@@rayman17420Yes, it's called a "scam" if you paid someone to mow your lawn and they keep coming up with excuses and asking for some more money while talking and showing you how they'll kow the lawn without actually doing it or doing part of it, then you obviously feel you're being ripped off/scammed, believe in yourself a little if "something is fishy" means it is fishy lol
And the vertical slice is basically a "playable concept art" with basic controls that gives idea to potential stakeholders about how the finished product will look and play like. In this case if the sand area was the vertical slice then they should've made that available to people (since its a player funded project) to play and test and after the positive response is received then only ask for more funding so that this new functionality/Element would be added in the rest of the game. What AoC Devs did was that they showed a gameplay video which people did not know whether was playable or not or just some ready-made UE5 artefacts thrown for the purpose of showcase and they promised that it was what the alpha would look like which is just false advertising
"Vertical Slice" is just another name for false advertising. It should be illegal. If I make an ad that I sell cars, showing brand new Bugatti (omitting on purpose that what Im showing is not what I sell) and people who pay me would get beat down old Toyota, I would be put in a jail. But just because its a video game, its okay. Money is money. If I spend money on something expecting A, because A was shown to me, but I get B = IT IS A SCAM.
If Bugatti announced a new car they are planning to build then people will line up to buy it, and no one would bat an eye if at the point of announcing the car the car is not available as a finished product and it would take time for the car to be ready and no one would throw a hissy fit if in the middle of testing the car before it is released the car was not 100% done… expecting this from a game that is in an alpha that will probably be in alpha for probably another year and then 2 betas is actual insanity
@@Indy_rawr Except Steven has NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE that would show that product he is showing to us is real or that it will be real. IT. IS. A. SCAM. Nothing more. Nothing less.
@@johnwick8516 The problem is exactly that - your "slice" doesnt need to be from anything you are selling. Its like giving a slice from a cake of a professional patisserie as an ad to sell your garbage, barely edible cake, but customers dont know its not the same cake before buying it.
Listening to Steve Shariff try to salvage his $55 mil from what looks like a mid unreal engine sandbox has to be tough, especially at these interest rates.
That desert showcase was definitely "unreal fakery" given that the shipped version had nothing to do with the showcase content. Narc said nothing wrong.
@@jaden2758 good for you, I guess. Still, lots of people hype this game up to unreasonable expectations just to be disappointed. So it's better to look at it like a normal game, not some "MMO savior."
I honestly wonder if Narc got caught exploiting and was reset and in order to hide this and save face he has to quit playing Alpha 2 Phase 2 and all these arguments are just an excuse. There is no way to prove either way if he does not play any more of Phase 2 as long as he used the same character name in Phase 1 and Phase 2.
How much was the alpha, $250? So if the game has a AAAAAAAAAA level price, it better have a AAAAAAAAAA level of polish. If it doesn't, well you're donating then.
It was donating lol, that wasn’t the problem. The problem was that people paid $250 and then later it was resold at a lower price to get more people’s money but didn’t refund the difference. Basically making the original buyers worse ofd
I'm pretty sure Asmon was overtly simping here whether he was paid or not he clearly was biased. You can run a list of even small developers who he has dumped on for far less (Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen immediately comes to mind). This was clearly a work, and anyone who gives them a pass while claiming to hold others accountable and be a source of truth and honesty is either willfully blind or just plain disingenuous.🤷♂️
Didn’t like this take from asmon, Steven is obviously making garbage that he sang words of praise for. Thank god I never bought this $300 game of trash.
Having been a part of game dev and design, and a part of corporate America, this is just terrible management. From a backend perspective, none of their systems are complex in the slightest. They are only complex in the sense that you convert loose ideas into concrete basic algorithms and data, which really isn’t that complex at all; it’s basically a typical requirement to even be in the industry, especially if you’re in a management position. The game isn’t indie and crowdfunded because it has to be. It’s indie and crowdfunded because it is the only way for this terrible management to be a part of it. There is absolutely zero reason why the desert biome could not have been 100% completed since the time of the video where it was featured. And, I don’t mean this from a “throw more money at it” or “work really hard” perspective. I mean if from the perspective of that this is extremely basic and easy stuff that could have been done by a small group of 2-3 people during that timeframe, especially if you consider they already did a vertical slice of it and the end result expectations were already well-known. This is just terrible management and beyond terrible logical thinking and planning. This is what happens when you have leaders with high expectations and out there dreams, yet nothing of any sort of practicality nor aptitude to converting said things into concrete plans and actions.
You’re very generous to blame it on incompetence when it’s more likely to be malice IMO. In any case, whatever desert footage they showed was pre rendered and not recorded in game (another example of misleading). It’s about time someone makes an expose on this mess.
@ Having been part of many processes over the years, I think it’s often the case with these crowdfunded games that you most definitely aren’t getting A-List people working on them; you’re getting like C-List or D-List people working on them. In the cases of like Chronicles of Elyria, you’re getting F-List people that are eventually expelled from school lol.
I think it is more serious than "just a communication issue". I think it's a lie and may even be a fraud. I have a hard time thinking of a legit reason not to even mention words like ideas, concepts, references, etc. when showcasing those fancy graphics in those preview livestreams.
@@johnsmith-de3tl "may even be a fraud" learn to read please. Plus my key message is on the sketchy sales pitch. The video showed evidence of this. If you have concrete evidence showing it's not sketchy messaging, show your evidence. Otherwise, i wont waste my time reply to you anymore.
I think is more about elitism and VIP access. Big content creators are Hollywood celebrities 2.0. They get preferential treatment, insider gossip, VIP, etc. Steve is on this guys DMs and they like it that way. The more things change the more they stay the same.
That's not how that works. And incompetence implies a lack of mastery or care. Which is a ridiculous assumption to make when something so complicated is being created. When you build something, you understand it can be much more complicated than expected, sometimes. Making an MMO is very complicated. These aren't difficult concepts.
Could you please explain where incompetence is? I work on game engines, specifically focusing on data storage features and networking, and from my professional point of view Ashes is exactly with in the parameters of how normal game development goes, especially a networked, server authoritative game. I think the issue from the beginning was opening up the development process to the public, because the public doesn't have the intelligence to understand the process. For example, we have you that knows nothing about creating massive networked, server authoritative games claiming to know what is incompetence and what is just normal. Every game feature goes through prototyping phases. Code is written, tests happen, the game breaks, you then patch and continue to prototype. At an alpha state most things have had a very small amount of testing. And the testing has generally consisted of small groups within the company. Steven opened up the game to people who want to test for the purpose of breaking the game and finding all the bugs faster, with a massive amount of people instead of small groups. This has been stated by the company, and the only thing that isn't industry standard about this is the fact that they are allowing real players to test instead of internal teams. So please explain what you mean by "incompetence". Because I see a normal development process that is normally hidden from people like you. I have a feeling that you are just shocked to know how internal testing and development actually works.
@@Manja500 I'm not saying the game is not on normal or standard programing process, I'm saying that, people doing what the guy is doing is turning into malice, because people in pointing obvious stuff and is ignoring on purpose and saying the problem is the people playing the game
@@herculanovalada2910 You just gave me a run-on sentence that communicates absolutely nothing. Give me actual examples of what you think is malicious and why you think that.
Intrepid hasn't overpromised anything. Narc, and players like Narc, developed a sense of unrealistic expectations *themselves* and then got disappointed when the game did not meet those expectations. Expectations that weren't actually founded on any real facts. This is what happens when someone hyper-fixates on something they're interested in, but refuses to actually learn any real details about that thing they're interested in. Asmon said as much in the video. It's common. It's a player problem. Not an AoC problem.
@@Tazytots wha? Steven himself acknowledged that some of the first game-footages wasn't even real. Sure there is some "sense of unrealistic expectations" but like, wha?
27:14 These are the same people that praised The Day Before and looked at how massive that flopped. You'd think people would learn but alast people are dumb af.
He was a seller for a pyramid scheme. He is also investing is some weird things. Clearly has no business doing a mmo with his credentials. He probably just see this as an investment. Not even sure he is involved with it at all. And to be honest hire people who got fired cause they suck isn’t smart either. Damn asmon is falling for this cause he wants this to work so hard
This game is about to be the new Star Citizen. Ask for a bunch of money up front and then use that money to spend the next 10 years in development making changes over and over and never actually pushing hard to get any finished product released while its fans just keep throwing money at them as "Support" to develop there dream game. I wont be surprised if in a years time they start adding other things for sale because the current money they got and are getting runs out and all the fans will keep throwing them thousands because they have a dream to see this game finished just like the Star Citizen fans. Also remember when testing games used to be a job you got paid for? Remember when devs used to have to include paying for game testers, The job role of QA. Now they dont pay people to test games they charge you hundrends to test there game for them and tell them what they should fix so they can make more money & sell there game better.
I have warned people for years about this game. I played ashes of creation apocalypse, the aoc cash grab battle royal. When I did play I recognized the assets. They were paragon assets that unreal released for free.
Idk why hes approaching the discussion this way but it 100% feels like Asmons giving Steven way to much leeway and dismissing many valid pieces of info and straight up facts Narcs saying about how theyve handled the presentation of AoC over the last few years. Like others have pointed out already in the comments, a vertical slice is nowhere near the same as presenting a prerendered showcase as actual assets and completed parts of the game when in fact its just that, prerendered footage of what Steven and his team want the biome to look like. Its just weird since at most Asmon takes a more measured or even neutral stance when such things are being discussed. Idk maybe im missing something but he seems to be giving Steven the benefit of the doubt, even over things that Steven obviously misled the community about (things he straight up admitted like saying most, if not all the showcases, so far arent based on real in game footage). Alpha or not, bad communications or not (which i dont believe because the one thing Steven is a master of is sales so he knows how to properly convey his thoughts and info so anything misl3ading was purposely done imo) theres still a big disconnect between what Steven told the community ovwr these past few years and what was actually the truth.
Narc's problem with AOC's communication reminds me a lot of what Minecraft went through. During a Minecraft live a few years ago, they showed concept art of an improved birch forest. Their community naturally assumed that this concept art was a reflection of what would be in the update. However, the birch biome wasn't touched in the update; the concept was simply a concept. This led to massive blowback. Minecraft's team learned from that and stopped showing concept art in their announcements and now only announce what IS going to be in the game.
@@michealrosen So 8 years already and they aren't even beta testing. The people involved now won't be around if and when it's finished in another 3 years, there will be other major titles out better than what they'll have, probably GW3 by then. If it ever comes out will ill be F2P immediately.
I have always wanted to do what Steven is doing and make my own MMO, so many of us have dreamed of it. I grew up with MMOs and I got tired of the way the games and the players were treated because the insane amount of money they generate attracts evil investor pirates, who just swoop in, hoover up all the cash before leaving the carcass and moving on. However seeing the state of MMO players and the amount of toddler temper tantrums is enough to make me say, nope that ship has sailed for me. I would rather make a single player RPG with the ability to invite friends into it. Steven acts like a AAA developer but people forget he was just a gamer who took his shot and managed to get some cash and actually succeed. Like any gamer/introvert he needs to work on his communication skills and make sure he and his paying testers are on board and on the same page as they most definitely are not. Steven is actually making progress unlike Mark Jacobs. THAT GUY is scammer, not Steven. AoC WILL come out, Camelot Unchained WILL NOT. Learn to use words properly. Just because the game isn't where you think it should be does not mean its a scam. Steven just needs to really up his communication game. Steven is right, all you morons need to be banned from playing, testing, or watching AoC content until its ready to be played. I can't believe how many people start screeching at me when I discuss this. Its like the WoW pvp whiners and game doomers. One of the few times I actually agree that censorship is needed to block the posts because oh my lord the crying and screaming is just over the top for you manchildren. I found a wow private server called UWow. Its a Russian server and one of the best coded Legion/WoD servers out there and even includes bots to play with during Dungeon runs, even Heroic and Mythic. The peace and serenity that comes with playing with extremely well coded bots is mesmerizing. I never want to play with WoW players again. I am so spoiled now because I can actually enjoy the game without all the mental disability that comes with playing with the current playerbase.
MMOs are literally the worst type of game for a new dev to make too considering how complex they are to make. I don't trust no name studios to make MMOs like this without any previous games in their lineup. There's been so many scams, rug pulls, and mismanaged garbage like these over the years idk how ppl keep falling for it.
Don't pay for products that don't exist. It's not a difficult concept.
Amen
Lilbro asmon is defending this trash 100 dollar beta key scam, while simultaneously bashing wow for having emotions in the game.
@@thecompanioncube4211 oh the irony...
@@eno88 what irony?
@@eno88 hahahahah
Can we all take a moment to appreciate how insane it is to spend $250 to partake in an Alpha for an MMO made by a developer who has literally no precedent at making anything good before?
Yep. This feels like star citizen all over again.
Testers should be paid.
It is pretty odd
It's not strange at all. Some people have lots of excess money and are starved for an MMORPG experience
Donate it to Judes children's hospital. Just cause you have excess money doesn't mean you should abuse it. I came upon a large amount of money in my 30s after living in public housing my entire life and it truly showed me the value of money and the duty of respecting what I have and not throwing it away. I choose to help others and you should as well. Or be judged at the end like all of us will. Do you.@@reishin6
I have learned two things from watching KiraTV:
1. You can't manifest an MMO into existence by throwing money at it.
2. MMO players are the number 1 copium addicts.
Point 2 very valid IMO...
Ngl this is really truthful
#1 Could eventually change with some sophisticated crypto/mining fueled AI perhaps
#2 Is simply set in stone, a damn commandment.
@@cherifoxoahmed it’s good that you didn’t lie, or did you?! 🤨
@@nirorit ?????
Dunno about the rest of you, but to me it's like, "Just wait till games are finished and released." What are kids doing, paying $250 to play-test broken maps for pie-in-the-sky indie games? Especially now, with the indie renaissance on the horizon, there's no need to do these almost-always dodgy crowdfunding schemes. Make devs commit! Wait for the release.
Paying to test a game is a scam, you should be paid to do it.
There is such a gigantic backlog of proven amazing games that I can just wait until a few years after release and pick up a game for 50% off or more.
FOMO used to get to me when I was younger but I don't care anymore.
$23 CAD for Timberborn Early Access last year was worth it. Tens on hours of fun. I still play it.
"There's a sucker born every minute." - Steven Sharif
It's 110$. What about let people do what they want with their money and time? :D Nobody who actually plays this game, agrees with narc. Go and play it with your friends. It's best mmo experience you will have in 20 years.
bro the moment you see 100 bucks for alpha test you know its a scam , is the whole internet stupid?
Yes
You new to the internet or sum?
+ 250 first alpha
because servers are free to run for 2 years - you guys show that you are 15 years old haha
lets say 1000 people bought the alpha
$100k thats it? hes been playing a scam for 5 years and the gain is $100k? this sounds stupid and the game looks %70 finished. check out streams at twitch.
As an AAA game dev of 10 years that is not what a vertical slice is Asmon. Vertical slice is a "slice" of the game on its basic mechanics and including a beautiful corner for the best potential of the visuals. What the devs did was prototyping and prototyping is preproduction not mid production and definitely not post production with the exception of adding new features post launch
It is a vertical slice by definition. A vertical slice is a prototype that's polished well beyond the rest of the project designed to show people the potential of the product, they're thrown together with pre-existing assets and mechanics designed to secure funding, they are not at all intended to actually be in the game as they're a literal tech and project demo.
@@SekiberiusWelkesh As a programmer who worked with game devs, the OP is correct and you are wrong. A vertical slice is finishing one tiny section to demonstrate it. This was not present at all, the shown things are meant to be completed at the time they are shown. This was a 'bullshot' or a 'mug's eyeful' visuals intended to convince the buyer it is more functional than it really is.
A vertical slice would have feature complete content, gameplay, etc. One quest in a single finished location for example. X minutes of finished gameplay content.
They didn't advertise it as a vertical slice, they provided only some clips not a playable section and claimed they had working weather mechanics that are not implemented yet edited them in. A vertical slice doesn't get removed from a game either, why undo work? It was never in the game.
@@SekiberiusWelkesh dev here. a vertical slice is meant to be a mostly completed slice of a cake thats not yet finished. It should be a section of the game that has mostly finished content albeit buggy and its fine if some parts are unfinished but overall its not meant to be "thrown together" - the cake slice should fit in the rest of the cake once complete. it"s part of the overall experience. You and asmon are wrong this time its okay.
@@SekiberiusWelkeshyou have 4 devs that are saying you are wrong.
@@SekiberiusWelkesh i been part of 4 vertical slices so far so that aint true because the company with a vertical slices has to prove to the publishers that they can populate the world with their own art and assets
Asmon trying so hard to not burn any bridges with Steven.
Yeah super weird, even the freaking desert lol
@@joelhodoborgas Because the desert is literally not true. Narc literally stood at the very edge of the desert, positioned in such a way to show the worst looking place on the desert.
He's just the next Curt Shilling, was asmond not around for that era of mmos?
if you put up $150 buck support fee and say this will be in the alpha and people pay and its not.......i dunno how you can defend it...... he needs to speak very carefully if he wants people to pay to test the game.. otherwise make it a free test and it is what it is...
Pls add "lmao" to the end of your comment. Because jeez
As a game dev, I can confirm, Zack doesn't know what a vertical slice is. A vertical slice is in fact a showcase of an in-development project which focuses on some specific area/feature/or mechanic to essentially demo how it will look/could look/or should look. Nine times out of ten, this is done by adding temporary polish to work that is already present. So to say that it "wasn't real" is admitting to effectively false advertising. A vertical slice is not the same as a throwaway prototype.
yes, he is describing Proof of Concepts or technology pitch deck, not a vert slice
16:13 Yupp, he literally called it "the desert reveal" too.
edit: noticed now that he clears his throat after lmao
The problem is Narc didnt even paraphrase what Steven said but misrepresented it entirely. They didnt admit it wasn't real they explained they are in game assets and the show case was ingame engine using ingame assets, the show case was a opportunity to show what they had in a polished video not to show that the desert was in a playable state for thousands of players, yes they could have potentially clarified that further but hindsight is 20/20 and the video was to show off the desert not to explain what a showcase means exactly. The whole issue with Narcs video which a lot of people will miss unless they already know about a lot of things around Ashes is that its very difficult to impossible to know hes being dishonest in his representation. FYI Oasises and a river with treets does exist in the desert biome but Narc specifically chose to show the Dunes because it would be what is considered to be the most barren. The thing is someone who isnt familar with ashes wont know Narc is misrepresenting so much its bordering on lying to prove his point about certain aspects. Like how he paraphrased Steven to say the showcase wasn't real because its dramatic and emotive.
UA-cam videos with drama also usually get more views than balanced more constructive critique so Narc is motivated to drum up as much drama and emotion he can as it earns him more money and growth. Look at flankers video about it and he shows how Narc has leaned into drama and negative baiting for the last year.
also vertical slices are explicitly mentioned as vertical slices with disclaimers, aoc dev literally said its in-game
@@IAmMorix he's covered the game for more than 4 years, the game has been in "development" longer than you have been in high school, anyone with any reasonable critical thinking skills can see this is another mmo "proof of concept" scam.
I love how as soon as people start calling Asmon out for his blatant disingenuity, he picks a follower at 18:48 to make an example out of. He immediately starts stuttering while claiming he doesn't have an AoC referral code (as if that's the only incentive someone might have for glazing this hot mess of a game). After they point out the obvious double standards, all Asmon could respond with were "Yeah, because I know the most about this", a few incomplete sentences, a strawman statement ("Are you calling me a scammer?!"), followed by a ban. A few minutes later, he decides to demonstrate a fine example of irony by saying, "I'd rather have a person speak with freedom, rather than watch every single word they say".
For someone who tells his audience not to eat d's in his every other stream/video, Asmon sure seemed to have a hard time following his own advice in this one.
Yeah
I love how as soon as you watch this video you hyper overanalyze it to exhaustion
he's a rat of course, rules for you but not for him, do as he says not say what he has done.
he doesn't understand the damage he can cause because he is a rat that thrives among mice, when everyone else becomes rats then that's when suddenly he wants to make appeals to morality and ethics, only a matter of time.
he got so heated, the stuttering was very funny
He’s like that with everything. He will ban anyone who says anything even slightly against him while simultaneously saying people should speak out when something is wrong.
If this was wow, he'd be shitting all over Blizzard.
@@CondemnedInformer big true
Blizzard is a multibillion dollar company that has been established for 34 years. And they still deliver garbage.
Yea because wow is a 20 year old game and they have a long storied history is fuckery. He explained that they doesn't grade this studio the same he does blizzard and Ubisoft. That makes sense those studios are multigame multi decade juggernauts with 1000's of people and have for years and years fucked people. I'm not saying Intrepid is innocent either, but the 2 are not exactly the same.
if early access/alpha/non1.0 + small studio size is the key concerns, everyone would forgive the day before and ton of bad products he cover before.
as he literally said in the video its because of track record and size of studio
One thing I’ll never agree with Asmongold on is his acceptance of people doing shady things to make a profit. Also makes me unlikely to trust any business venture he has or may embark on.
he has never said he agrees with it / he just doesnt cry like a redditor about it
Asmon is very open on being shady, I mean one of his favorite terms is “ABC” or “Always Be Cheating”
@ I’m not talking just about this situation genius.
100%! He never comes across as trustworthy because of this!!
He's trying to ensure he get's that flying mount, homie.
Zack shouldn't make it so obvious that he has financial obligations to defend this garbage between Intrepid and his various companies. This is exactly why i miss pre-Legion Asmon - someone who didn't have business pressure to defend bad practices and always said what needed to be said.
Hate this corporate crap.
He has so much connection and access in the industry that he is unable to be real about it anymore. Too many ties.
Yep and his fan boys are the sheep that flock. I knew this day one of ever watching him. I immediately noticed the narcissism
He said he wasnt being paid so chances are he isnt being paid. Just sounds like he's being unrealistically overskeptical of Narc's criticism for some bizarre reason.
@@gr33dl0cknein3 He is real about the industry like every day shitting on bad games, what do you mean?
@@GloomSkullCandy 90% of the shit posted on this channel is just culture war crap. His content is no different in taste to something that Hasan would make, except he swings the other way politically.
His content has absolutely been shit since the days of Legion. I say this as someone who used to watch Asmon a fair amount back in the day, and someone who only jumps in to mock the over politicisation of content these days.
Like around 14:00 are we just going to forget how 1 of the biggest selling points for Ashes of Creation and it's development is how Steven talked about the lack of transparency and false promises from video game developers and vowed to not be the same way...?
How is he not very upfront about the stuff, i mean can you point at any other Developement wich is open like that on this scale ? Also he constantly is active in the Community commenting stuff and answering peoples Questions and they make Monthly Streams i mean what do you want more. Even the Alpha has no NDA and you have litterally Thousands of Viewers watching the Alpha Stage of the Game trough Streams all Day long.
There could allways be a better Communication, in fact i think its still one of the bigger problems to be more clear on Stuff but its hard in an ever changing developement like here to have clear statements about everything wich can be subject to change or scrapped alltogether for a complete new approach for example wich will then throw off people most likely.
THIS - this was one their biggest points to capture the wider MMO gaming community. And now, that "benefit" is fading away.
@Nevoras pantheon, but they got a fun game to play
Just asmon and the shills
@@Nevoras Show me one example of when during the showcases Steven uses the words "vertical slice" or explains that what is being shown isn't in the game but some assets they put together strictly for a presentation. This is like (not as bad but similar idea) what Anthem did with their E3 trailer being purely made up at that point and none of what was shown was actually in the game yet, or even would be. The devs themselves didin't know what they were making at that point.
Vertical slices are not supsoed to be used for the consumer it's for investment companies, you also have to clearly state it.
The videos in question were used as a prototype for what is coming not a vertical slice very disengeuos.
Yeah it was closer to a "bullshot" than a "vertical slice".
Sounds like the girl in the video who’s apparently the head of comms needs to do a better job communicating with the community 😂
I haven’t played the game, but I wonder if the player base is mostly dudes. Having a girl run community comms could effect the translation of information to the community. I’ll tell my husband something and he doesn’t understand what I’m saying, yet I can say the same sentence to a girl and they understand instantly. Not sure if that applies to the game or not
@@Quotheraving "Bullshit" is all I saw lol
@@hopefulart This is an interesting insight. I'm not sure if in this case the CM's ruin the game (because I'm unfamiliar with AoCs CMs) but this is something to consider, especially with the history of some CMs not doing so hot. (Helldivers 2 as a recent example.)
@@hopefulart Even women know they speak in code. LOL
The "vertical slice" vs reality contrast in this AoC desert is worse than The Day Before. The conflict of interest is palpable in this reaction
To be fair, the devs never said this was the delivered product. That's just what people assumed/interpreted.
Biased much? 17:45
Clearly shady moves by the dev...there is no defense.
Missed the mark here mate!
Didn’t miss the mark, counting his marks. He is paid to “debunk” the video. Pretty obvious.
@@jimjones9900 if he's really paid to shill, someone would've pointed this out long time ago with a proof. he's just trying way too hard to not burn the bridge, happened a few times in the past. You really think someone pulling 20-50k viewers on twitch would lie about being sponsored?
I mean... Zack is clearly telling you why he is biased afterwards. Its a communication error and Steven is at fault for that and has to own up to it. This might be to lack of experience as devs, but wasn't performed intentionally...
@@Loxly-ti4sqthere’s no way we could know that he’s paid, whatever goes on between Steven and Asmon’s LLC isn’t public record. Unless it all comes crashing down in a lawsuit or through leaks.
@@Dramox.When he said "this is the preview of desert that will be in alpha 2" but it turns out they didn't even make it, how do you justify that?
3:51 Asmongold's logic is misleading - the fact that the youtube video exists doesn't disproof that the company is controlling the narrative. that's not the logical conclusion, sorry. two claims can exist simultaneously without that fact by itself being a conclusion for any kind of relation between them. And Asmongold uses the word "obviously" ("they are obviously not controlling the narrative...) so loosely that it's mind-blowing.
Lol, around 38:00 Steven messages Asmon and Asmon goes "I want to see this game to be successful." Says the guy "I don't care if a game fails I can make content on it."
Totally financially invested in AOC.
If the company wanted to control the narrative (as in a more aggressive way), then I'd assume they'd take action to copyright strike the video like how some other game dev studios tried to against UA-camrs.
Added onto this, of course they'd try to control the narrative to some extent, that's after all what companies do and one of the reasons companies have HR & PR departments.
Yea his arguments are bad this video because he is clearly being bias he’s trying to look for the best case for Steven in every argument only agreeing with narc on point that arent to detrimental to the game if true
@@hulkhogansgianttaint9451 you're thinking way too much into it.
How is he wrong? they aren't controlling the narrative. So you are saying Steven wants people to think he's a scammer. If he was controlling the narrative wouldn't you think this video wouldn't exist or be taken down?
This video feels like damage control from someone who has investment in this product rather than acknowledging the elephant in the room.
It shows his bias.
$250 broken alpha = misunderstanding
Marvel Rivals free game = scam
this guy is one of the biggest youtubers/streamers and owns multiple companys, even if he was part of the referall program (which he isn't) he wouldn't give af
@@JacobGunnTV forreal lol, youtube comments about as dumb as reddit comments on this video
@@JacobGunnTV the investment might be reputational or just a friend he is trying to cover for. regardless, Zack's behavior is very strange.
I love how asmon is walking on eggshells with this. He is so biased in his take and defending the game than actually seeing what it is, a 250 dollar fomo alpha that leaves a bad taste in people's mouth.
all while saying that he would shit on ubisoft if they did the. but its fine here because its from a studio that have no history at all.
i believe streamers are being paid huge money from this game. (piratesoftware, asmongold)
If you love it so much why don't you marry it?
The game literally look like shit , the horse legs doesn’t even move . I rather play thrones and liberty 😂😂
Because its a an alpha, it was always meant to be shit since its an unfinished, unpolished product. You were never paying 250 to buy the game, but to support the development of the game. When you apply the standards of a finished product to an alpha of course its gonna look bad.
Rare Asmon L defending this shit so many times through the video. This game is fucked and its over.
Can't be over if it was never going anywhere to begin with.. the previews vs ingame alpha is egrigious.
Ls are not rare if you find them in every video.
The Ls have been pretty common lately tbh
@@GloomSkullCandy bro if you publicly go and type out and call some on the n word , bro your game is dead. And stephen basically did exactly that.
Common Asmongold L. And can't write a comment why because all words are impossible to type.
- Adûnâi
Anyone can make that desert in 10 min in unreal engine, straight up 10 min or less.
--Open unreal --> New level --> create landscape --> go to quixel bridge and get a sand texture for free --> apply said texture to landscape --> use modeling tool to create some dunes or if you want to spend 5 extra minutes just use a height map for the landscape or some noise vairations to make it look more natural. --> done.
Aye, Asmon is no different from that girl that was pushing crypto scam. He doesn't understand it's a scam 😂 I wouldn't even show my mates something like this, nevermind release it to the world and charge for it. Just some bullshit anybody can throw together. We all know they didn't use the assets because they couldn't afford the correct licence to allow them to make profit from them 😆 30 million funded my ass. Pure scam. Quarter of a billion to make it eventually 😂
It's literally this easy, just Ctrl l to adjust the sun position to that sorta lighting and you literally have the exact same scene.
have u seen the actual desert and not just the dunes? cause narc only showed a part of the desert
@@jaden2758He walked around for hours on stream, same image everywhere
I have no horse in this race; my only good faith explanation is that the dev doesn't want to actually share the advancements he made on the desert until release.
Bro playing defence for his buddy.
So much cope in this video
Ashes of coping
Weirdly enough, when Asmon likes the company, he excuses all they do.
Steven and Asmon sitting in a tree S C A M M I N G
You can even tell as Asmon is covering for the game, he knows it is bad.
Asmon is 100% either covering for the dev because he likes him or because there's some sort of financial connection between them. The game has always screamed scam and now that it's being put out in the open, Asmon is running defense.
Always screamed scam?
@@AuxxiliaryATC Yep, all my friends would laugh anytime someone mentioned AoC. This game always didn't come off right at all and has had plenty of controversy despite essentially nothing happening in the game. Beautiful graphics before gameplay is a bad sign. Good ol UE slop.
@@AuxxiliaryATC Absolutely it has always screamed a scam. Tiny dev team with no experience wanting to make a revolutionary mmo? Yeah never gonna happen. AAA can't do it, a team of a handful of people can't do it.
Ashes of Creation has active partnerships with influencers to advertise the product. Asmongold is one of them.
@@AuxxiliaryATC One of the lead devs was literally a scam artist before joining the team. The game also constantly used FOMO to sell overpriced founder packs, used crowdfunding, and promised things that they could never realistically achieve.
Anyone who has played MMOs for long enough knew that their node system was a joke. PVP-focused MMOs never last long or have large audiences because people will grief or it will be overrun by a few hardcore guilds. They constantly promised that they were the ones to finally crack the code and would deliver something revolutionary, but in reality this stuff had been done before.
They constantly re-packaged things as being "new" and "revolutionary." Now it's becoming apparent that all they were over doing was asset flipping and putting in the bare minimum. Their combat system was always dated and now the entire game looks super dated due to how long its been in development. Adding to that the art style is just horrendous and generic.
Finally, the founder seems more adamant on trying to sell you the game than actually developing it. Yes, games take money, however, most of the effort seems to be put on selling it. The game itself is unimpressive and mostly sold on promises which have never materialized. As it stands, people are finally starting to see through the marketing and realizing this is going to be another letdown at best and an outright scam at worst.
It's basically Star Citizen in fantasy form, but they tried to rob their customers too blatantly.
I remember Steven saying they have fully funded AoC years ago but then sellling $250 packs for years is a little problematic. Plus steven made his money in the world of multi level marketing don't mind someone making money it's how you do it that matters. But then i said this years ago and hope to be proven wrong. Plus the cash grab battle royale was a clear conflict of interest.
@@estebanhughell709 the game development is fully paid for. Not the server upkeep. That's why mmos have subscriptions to keep server live. Instead they put a pay wall and a one time payment to play alpha.
Anyone dumb enough to buy this deserves it. I mean there's thievery and then there's tricking stupid people legally. From basically the first moment i looked at this years back it was obvious this was not anything special. Maybe I just have a keen eye from playing MMO's and games for 20 years though. There is 0 passion, plot, lore, quest design, unique NPC's animatios or ideas. Just basic unreal slop.
that is a lie he made a very small amount when he was young from that and made 99% of his money from real estate
How?! Bro said its alll funded and you don't have to give them money, if you want we have keys for sale. If you would sell that yourself you're insane.
Also it wasn't a battle Royal mode it really just was a huge stress test for code letting everyone go bonkers to see what went wrong. If it was really a cash grab for money dude it would really have been released full price battle Royal years ago... It's really bad logic.
Giga L take from asmon standing defense for this obvious misdirection and lying. You are NOT supposed to show vertical slice for players EVER, thats something you take for the publisher and its supposed to be a PLAYABLE, FEATURE COMPLETE short segment. You dont know what vertical slice is
When you're a crowdfunded game, the players are the publishers.
Its laughable that they mentioned NMS when even NMS made it as close as possible to what they had in launch, its fucking crazy how much he defends this shit.
@@unloyal4847 NMS released with absolutely nothing they said they would release with so this isnt close to being true lol.
Yep... its what the industry has butchered successfully what a Vettical Slice is now compared to what it was.
The OP was right. What was made to get investment to showcase what the actual end product would be or contain now means a glorified Trailer of high concepts that most games could never obtain, run on a super computer to display graphics.
This is why, as a consumer, you need to stop falling for the hype. I do not care if this is how business needs to be run to make a product. It is harmful to the consumer because the only time when it can be proved a lie in the grand scheme of things is when the product is released.
@@unloyal4847 No it did not. NMS at launch was nothing like what they showcased nor promised, and it took them years to try to get to that point.
I remember when I was in middle school and I was really excited when Ashes of Creation was announced. I now am the father of an elementary student.
i think Zack has some money invested in this game XD
comment delete incoming... we all know youre right though
I sure think so, Asmon is out of his mind displaying extreme cognitive dissonance with his awful bias.
he is 100% in connection with this game so way. probably investments
Ye its weird how Asmon is defending this Scam. Cant wait in 5 years for the game to be still in Alpha and Asmon wont comment on it
Nah, he's just consistent in his opinions and that makes people mad because they want to seethe about AOC. Also Narc is a literal piss baby seething about his golden goose not being able to earn him as much money as it did when it was popular.
Asmon has always said, for every game, to just wait and play it when it's released. Nobody is forcing you to hype yourself up like dipshits just to inevitably be disappointed.
The first 20 minutes feels like the rich protecting the rich.
Ofc it is, it's his buddy
If you're invested in a game to an unhealthy degree you're going to mistrust people who can look at the situation objectively.
Sorry my friend is so bad at communicating that all the past teasers and showcases were just theoretical possibilities of an unlikely outcome we accidently charged you 250 bucks for.
I don’t have a problem with Asmongold not jumping on the « it’s a scam wagon » even though I think it is. At the end of the day its best not to accuse someone of doing something this bad without definite proof !
@@colbr06you think this is a neutral view?
“Okay so the background here is actually the desert you find in the Alpha, which means it’s not misleading”
Then why does the camera focus on the oasis and not those empty lands? Yes they showed the empty lands but in the backgrounds, which imply that they’re not what Steven wants the audience to focus on. He wants them to focus on these rocks and foliage and ecosystem
What happens when you're too busy selling an idea rather than a product.
When you're to busy buying an idea rathan than product.
Its what serial entrepreneurs do with investors. They sell an idea that will be very profitable (usually something impossible that sounds right out of Star Trek), take in tens of millions, never produce anything, file for bankruptcy, a couple of years later come up with a new idea. Rinse and repeat. There have been 7 or 8 startups who claimed to know how to make lab grown meat that is better and cheaper than beef, took in a few billions to do it and they all closed without producing anything because there is simply no way to make it cost less than 10x of raising cows.
@@jpteknoman meats are subsidized by the government.
humans don't have choice but to improve the tech.
Every new tech is expensive like Nuclear Fusion. Doesn't mean we give it up on it.
Ashes to Ashes.
lmaooo
Dust... to... dust... *plays Tom Petty - "Runnin' Down a Dream"*
Bucks to bucks
Turds to Turds
Feels weird that Asmon is defending this garbage so hard.
It's healthier to not cope
I prefer to seethe.
Nerds
Well, that really depends on the situation. Sometimes, you need to cope, to eventually overcome. For video games? It’s terrible 😅
Dont worry people are gonna praise Sharif after 10 years for "not giving up on the game" cause he obviously didnt mean what he said and he is just being pressured because of all the expectations.
Asmon went full cope defending the devs, super weird.
I feel like Steven here shouldn't be cutted any slack, I don't care about what a "vertical slice" is, if you're showcasing a game, while selling access to the game, and what you're showing is not in the game, you're missleading on purpouse, even if you don't want to treat is as a scam, it's at least false advertising, they're showing things that are not in the game, and talking about it as if it was, and then selling access to that game implying it will be like shown, and then silencing anyone that talks about it. So there is no thing as being too harsh to them, they tryed to misslead players, so they diserve any backlash they get.
You said it doesn’t matter what size the developer studio is and how hard it is to make a game, we don’t make excuses for games not delivering on what they promised. You really change the way you think all the time and it’s annoying.
Yeah he flip-flops and contradicts but if you bring it up he moves the goalpost. Usually he is solid but he is being intellectually dishonest defending these giys
I don't think you understood him, watch the video again but pay attention this time
I've literally watched games come and go without playing them, thanks to Asmon.
True! True!
True and real.
Saved me so much money 😂
jap, i played soany mmos thnx asmond without ever touch that genre 😂w😂😂
@@valenwolfteam62you really need asmon to be able to see this scam?
I usually respect (even if not agree with) Asmon's opinion on things. However, this is not the case. That's a bit painful to see someone just bending his standards and values in favor of someone who he wants to like regrdless of any his missteps.
bold of you to assume he has standards and values
I would not call that desert part a "vertical slice". If they really only added the sand and the dunes of the desert, leaving it mostly empty, that is just the bare minimum. Wouldn't a vertical slice have a small piece of most systems, and not just sand?
It actually does. Narc only showed the Not so developed Part, since He has some Personal Problems with Steven couple of Videos before He showed the Showcase Part of the desert
Idk why Asmon is being such a chill, if almost everything was indeed fake assets and stuff, isn't it kind of a scam? I just don't understand how it isn't at least fake advertising.
Asmon has to take the high horse because he's a streamer built fully on ego. He cannot be wrong about something so obviously stupid even when he clearly is.
He will act like nothing happened and then make fun of it like he didn't garble their nuts for years. Just like rich, tectone, gamblewrecks, anyone else?
Only thing that was arguably fake assets was the desert, when they literally said that this is going to be coming with this Mondays update
@@matthewfoureight4288 It's literally just unreal assets with basic ass animations / images. There is almost no originality in this game.
Wtf is a "fake asset"? Lmao. If it's in the game, it's real. Assets are literally made to be bought and put in games to be used. If they're low-quality, say that, but there's no such thing as "fake assets".
Because Asmon himself is a rich guy with no integrity. Of course you defend your peers...
The new business model for gaming is to sell unending development cycles and never finish a product. UA-cam just announced a price increase for premium, btw.
Star Citizen all over again
put 100 developers in a project , release a uncomplete version and only keep 10 developers there forever trying to do a impossible task , move the 90 developers to another project and repeat 5 times , now you have 5 unfinished games that takes years to get any changes but 3 times the revenue
Never paid for UA-cam. That would just be dumb.
I swear they just jacked it up not too long ago. I guess they are making progress on Ad blockers and are now using the price because you have fewer and fewer options, all while the ads are getting longer, more invasive, and also advertising outright snake oil.
Good luck to them 😂 the largest by far entertainment market clearly isn't enough for them. I've kept my physical media from the 80s till now, I'll not be stuck for things to play.
FOMO is an anti-consumer practice, Intrepid can use that practice as much as they want but they have to live with the consequences. Cause, and effect.
Intrepid also lied about their Alpha2 keys which they also have to live with.
In my opinion, this youtuber shouldn't stop making videos about AoC just because it took a U-turn. He should keep doing his job as a content creator and keep others informed... If we take the "I quit" out of the equation it's an informative video, and people need that!
It's funny how every time when there is a "miss communication" devs are always making money from it. Of wait, of course it's miss communication, Steven is his buddy. How silly of me.
WRONG. They actually stepped back from the original prize for the alpha after being called out by the community. Originally only the alpha was covered in the current package and people said that is too much. And within days they agreed, included the beta, a month of launch play time and 15$ of cosmetic store value. Granted all that does not really cost them anything but still, now the 120$ pack is 2+ years of play time which is far less per month than any other MMO that has a monthly sub.
They "miss-communicated" when saying that this preview of the desert will be in alpha 2. They just said it by mistake
@@tarmok3756charging for an alpha with fake showcases scummy mfs
@@tarmok3756 why you talking subs for a game that isn't finished...
Speculation at its worst
It’s one word bro…miscommunication.
Why is Asmon shielding this game so much ?
Always has. He's a huge stan for it
He probably invested into the company
paid or invested
Paid or invested as most have already said
Cause he likes the guy behind the project.
Says he is not on the payroll, is most definitely on the payroll. Lol.
$250 for an unproven studio is a big ask
$100 where do you get $250?
$5 for any studio is a big ask. Tf is wrong with people.
One of the many phases had a 250 price tage
@@rigormortis3219 as far as I remember first Alpha access was for 250 USD, correct me If I am wrong otherwise.
@@rigormortis3219 the original were 250
Asmongold said it best “Steven is a salesman” meaning he’ll say what ever it takes to get his numbers up.
Very rare asmond L DAMN what do they have a family member of his hostage?!! 💀 any other game did this it would’ve been an hour long THIS GAME IS A 100% SCAM not him spending the entire time throat boxing devious devs
It's not so rare.
Im sorry Asmon but AoC has been copium for years. Ive always found its strange hes adamantly supported and minimizes the crappy things that happen around this game. Its been like 4 years of let down and copium and he still cant call it what it is.
His entire argument is basically, Well yeah theres a lot of shitty stuff going on. Its unfortunate. But no one wants it to be true or be a scam. So lets just wait and see guys.
I dont know why he has such a hard on for this game in particular. Nothing really makes it anything special honestly.
Because he isn't tryna burn bridges. He is 100% simping for 0 reason.
It takes a long time to create an mmorpg. It's an alpha and it's not even half finished yet. These people are acting like this is a beta test. That being said I haven't bought an alpha key and I won't. I'll wait for the full release and if it never comes out or it doesn't suck I've only wasted a few hours watching videos about the game lol.
@jaredc5169 don't sell a product if you can't handle honest criticism or being called a scam. They sold a product, an expensive one and now don't want the consequences that comes with that, cute
@@jaredc5169 How long is too long is the question.
idk if youve played it but i do actually think its special. has the best combat ive felt in a mmo good community nice systems all within an alpha. ive had more fun playing ashes then wow for a long time
Paid alpha testing is a ridiculous concept. In the past, companies compensated alpha testers for their time and effort, and beta versions of games were distributed for free. Now, the roles are reversed-players are actually paying to test incomplete games. This shift explains why so many games today are subpar. Developers exploit the enthusiasm of eager gamers, charging them to play unfinished products and claiming their feedback is valuable, even when many testers lack the gaming expertise to provide meaningful input. It’s a system that prioritizes profit over quality.
Game developers also need to remember that it’s their game, not the players’ game. Developers shouldn't cater to every complaint from players or constantly tweak their vision to appease a vocal minority. It’s not the developer’s job to “beat” the player; it’s the player’s job to overcome the challenges the developers design. This dynamic is what makes great games memorable.
If developers back in the day had caved to constant whining and demands like some do today, classics like Super Mario Bros. and The Legend of Zelda wouldn’t have stood the test of time. Great games require strong creative direction, not endless compromises driven by noisy feedback.
And it is kind of a heated topic.
This is it. People are paying for something, they should really be paid for. And it creates conflict.
@fabucla The vast majority of feedback I see, around 99%, is driven by self-interest-focused on benefiting a specific class, role, or playstyle to give players an edge in gameplay. Rarely is the feedback about making the game more challenging or improving the overall experience for everyone.
That's why they need to bring back paid alpha testing, not pay to alpha test. People who were paid to do a job versus people who want an advantage? Which one do you think is gonna be more profitable? In the long run?
Spot on! "Hype riders" is what I like to call the current business model.
It used to be that enthusiasm for a game happened after it came out and blew everyone out of the water with how good it was, making it successful. Nowadays, developers try and artificially create that same hype with promises and "industry showcases" that are nothing more than a complete fabrication.
I understand Asmon wants Ashes to succeed, I do to. But my trust in the project has been significantly diminished. Thank god I never paid for the alpha.
Depends on the game and scope and the intent. Ashes isn't being funded by venture capitalists or an AAA publisher -- they do not have indefinite slush or utilising quarterly profit margins from other products to fund the development. So no, they cannot afford to pay 1,000 people to test their R&D ventures; it's just not viable nor sensible. However, you're right that AAA publishers having paid early access absolutely is exploitation.
Because people like narc spend years and money anyway. Narc while being critical, he also perpetuated the whole process. 4 years of his life.... He's to deep.
Asmon sounds like he got a sponsorship coming or already heavily invested lol
Exactly this. We shouldn't accept "indie devs" putting in zero effort and relying on people paying them $250 to A) fund their game and B) QA test their proof of concept.
And I say this as someone who's paid $150 for Escape from Tarkov back in 2017, and now consider it the best FPS ever made so far. The reason? BSG, the developers, provided a decent product at first and didn't promise the world throughout the years of development. Even before they made EFT, they had a smaller (free) game called Contract Wars that they used to showcase their ability to make a good multiplayer shooter. EFT is not a perfect game even today, and it's had its fair share of controversies, but I feel like I've had my money's worth with the game.
Ashes of Creation may not necessarily be a scam per say. The devs, including Steven, may have the best intention, but it's pretty clear from an outsider's point of view that they're shooting for the moon... with a slingshot. And I think that's the problem with many MMOs nowadays. Every single one of them wants to compete with WoW and the success its been building both monetarily though their subscription model, but also the two decades of development. It's just an impossible task if you ask me. They should focus on innovating where WoW still hasn't, rather than trying to mimic what Blizzard is doing just to cash in.
Dude just because he didnt join the witchhunt at full force people make wild assumptions
@@Kewlioe Oh you will have to excuse us who have been scammed by hundreds of games in the last decade. Its not a big deal for Asmon to lose money on a game so of course he isnt as passionate about making sure people are held accountable.
@@ABanksy Yeah i know basically every crowd funded mmo has been a scam but all he did during the video was come at it with a neutral stance, im not defending the game either but its insane to assume he has money invested
No, people turn on games and creators not because it diverges, but because it's clear it's either massive incompetence or malice. Being invested in a project in development for years, being lied to for years about what's being worked on, and then finally being revealed a steaming pile of dung, is going to make people upset.
Over promise, under deliver. Horse meme is real in every company.
Or.... or.... R&D is difficult and tech development and engineering is not as easy as people think. The problem is that most of today's generation is used to copy-pasta, asset-flips, and assume every game that goes beyond a two year dev cycle is a "scam", when that's not the case at all. The major issue is that the industry is in a creative-lock right now where everyone at the top is just recycling derivative concepts on mostly stock engines. In order to break out of that, you have to go back to the concepts of the 1990s, where R&D and bold creative ventures ruled the day. We do not have that now. The only two games looking to push those boundaries and step outside of the box as Star Citizen and Ashes of Creation. But because R&D is hard, long, and arduous, people assume that they are just "scams".
@@Billy-bc8pk none of this matters because the developer should have then said, hey these are slices of what we want the game to be at release, not talk like this is what they are currently working on. you are really missing the entire point of what people are complaining about. if the person had been honest that the images were what the game should be when finished it wouldn't have been as bad because at least he was being honest. you cannot defend this kind of stuff in any business enterprise
@@Billy-bc8pk I've done project management and development long enough to know the red flags, the red flag of course is lots of promises and very little results. You do realize YEARS is a long time right? You do realize that things can be delivered weekly right? When a dev keeps promising things and nothing happens, it's because they're either incompetent and unable to deliver or they're taking you for a ride (for money).
@@eligoodman8586 Fair enough, and good point. I think this is more an issue of communication rather than malice, though.
Asmon was insufferable. I don't even have a dog in this fight, but holy shit.
~28 minutes in, the developer implied the content creator's mental health was to blame for his foul mood rather than anything the developer did. This is some S-tier gaslighting and should never be publicly done even if it were the case.
Asmon is at his best when he updates his position based on new information.
Hate to break it to you man, but this is what Steven does. The only content creators left for them are all yes men, and the ones who leave like Narc did all get the "well you're just being mental" treatment. He's done it before and he's done it again.
@@handsinthefire Gonna be funny when this game flops massively like I expected it would day 1 of announcing this dookie pile.
@@handsinthefire don't have a dog in the fight. it will never affect me.
14:23 A vertical slice is a fully playable portion of a game that shows the developer's intended player experience. It's a proof of concept for stakeholders before they agree to fund the rest of the game. Its got to be playable first
Man banned a chatter for calling him out on being extremely biased. Even the examples you brought have no grounds. BMW was in production for 6,5 years and came out GotY sold 20+million copies with a budget of 70m according to bloomberg (this all being that 1 copy was/is way still cheaper than instances of 250 for AoC). Ashes of Creation has been in production for 10 years and doesn't have anything to show for it.
He didn't 'call him out for being extremely biased' he accused him of being on the payroll and defending a scam, not the same thing by a long stretch. If you are going to make such accusations, you'd better offer evidence and there was none, so what we got was a viewer insulting a creator on his own channel.
The literal thousands of alpha testers in an incomplete but functioning world is nothing to show for it huh. I'm in one of the largest guilds the Alpha 2 AoC community has atm and they're doing all sorts of regional node development activities and progressions. Do us a favor and just stop commenting about a game you care nothing about, you won't be missed. The game mechanics and designs they promised are RIGHT THERE, and people still call it a scam. You're no MMO fan, you're a spiteful loser that can't be happy that even one dev in existence is trying to bring an MMO worth your time into reality. I hope you find peace. Also, FYI a single player game does not compare to an MMO in how long it takes and how much it costs to develop. lmao 6.5 years for a SINGLE PLAYER GAME and you think a Multi-thousand player MMO of this scale would come out anywhere close to the same time.
What do you mean nothing ? It has the same boring combat system MMOs have been using for decades
"Steve my beloved" - Asmongold 2025
You missed the 2025
@@isoldmymumforrp5371 damn! fixed!
Ashes of Creation marks all the boxes of MMO scam. Prepaid alpha, bait and switch environments, missing features that were implied to be in the game, banning users and locking posts. Last year Asmon watched a video about mmo scams. How does he now ignore every red flag?
After seeing the desert and Steven statements, i didn't expect Asmon to be so "passive"
because narc is misleading his audience. dont get me wrong the desert isnt great but he showed the dunes which have nothing in them not the rest of the desert that has stuff
@@jaden2758what stuff?
@@omensoffateeither a child coping hard or a bot, he’s been replying with the same shit to many comments
@@omensoffate In the video, he was intentionally showing the very edge of the map. There is a large portion of the desert that has seen some development and it isn't just empty sand dunes such as what he shown.
@@rb7619 yeah I'm neither of those and I'm replying the same stuff because people are making the same dumbass points since they believe narcs lies
Asmon must have some Ashes of Creation sponsorships coming up or something haha. @38:20 i wonder if he will ask the real questions or is this just another for views stunt
He's so close to end of life care and has to pay the bills, just like most boomers
He loves Ashes of Creation lmao.
@@CozyHumanoid No, he gets free money to not say bad things, this video, is clearly showing that
Asmons biased pivot is insane in this video.
@@xCeL46 and that too. Its so clear he's friends with the devs
Ashes of Creation has been in dev for over 9 years now and it barely looks like a demo concept.
If you pay into it, you're willingly losing money.
Maybe in another 10-20 years AoC will live up to your fantasy. 😂
No matter how promising a game looks, people who pay for games before they’re released deserve what happens to them. Before 2010, we had amazing games without spending a single cent upfront.
I know its extreme example and its single player game but i bought divinity original sin 2 in early access 1 year before release, and baldur's gate 3 early access 3 years before the release and both ended as Masterpieces. But i must say i was SOOOOO angry when Baldur's gate 3 took 3 years in early access instead of maximum 1 year. There must be some kind of industry rule should be implemented by Steam, Microsoft, Sony or whatever by who has enough power so they can sell early access maximum 1 year before releases. Absolute maximum. This can prevent many problems about Early access games and scams. There will still be rotten apple who will try to scam but numbers will be minimum.
I understand and accept you are 100% correct. However, when it comes to MMO's there is a problem of funding. MMO's are in bad shape right now, they are "played out" and have had a number release and be commercial flops. They are also insanely expensive to make and take a long time. Getting one funded is near impossible.
Therefore an MMO fan has been ripe for being scammed. They recognise the only way to see the game they want is to crowdfund it, but this leaves them wide open for disappointment. Most games during development get changed or are stopped altogether and crowdfunded MMO's are no different - leaving you wide open to the "scammed" accusation.
yeah, and they shouldn't be complaining like babies either
This is not always true. My top games were bought in early access. Satisfactory, valheim and now Poe 2
Absolutely.
But every now and then, you do get something nice out of it.
I backed Wasteland 2 and 3. Got two good games.
Then InXile sold out to Microsoft and then fell off the planet. But hey, still got two good games.
But I do think we should make a distinction between taking a risk on Crowdfunding and Pre-Ordering from a established well funded studio.
I told you. those $120 alpha keys were sold because they lost so much money on making the game and they were about to roach out. they had to make the money back with the keys.
Nailed it brother.
My guess would be more like to cover the Server Costs wich will be running till Release for every Alpha Tester troughout Betas etc now. They even Changes the Phase Packs cause players wanted more stuff included in them, before that they where only Acces for Alpha, no Betas no Gametime etc litterally for the testers that actually wanted to help. When you make the maths the price kinda covered the Alpha Phase length for Servers. I bet they changed it cause players cried and wanted more plus having access to the "game" to play it - they took the loss on money and added the Beta and stuff to the Packs wich will have longer Serveruptimes then. Still its not much Release Gametime thats why i really dont understand people... They should have waited for Beta Packs in a few years cause i bet those will have more actual Gametime etc in them than those Alpha Phase ones and the Game will be in an actual playable state by then but whatever... ~
I dont think they have Money Problems at the moment but depending on how long the Developement will take there might be one in the future.
@@Nevoras They are saving up for future costs. Man at this rate this game is not going to come out for another 10 years.
@@CozyHumanoid i doubt that it would be that long my guess would be maybe 4-6 years. They will have a Subscription after Release and he still has his Company making Money so there is a kind of Buffer even without us.
And im betting there will be some more Sales comming in those years so it should be fine. Time will tell we will see.
@@CozyHumanoid It's never gonna come out, and if by some miracle it does it'll immediately flop because it's built on the same outdated genre conventions as every other MMO. A game this size has to draw in a massive audience to make enough money to keep running, and the number of people who wanna do pointless "fill the bar" busywork and run the same boring dungeons and raids a thousand times for a minor gear upgrade or cosmetic is miniscule. MMOs as people know them are dead; without a complete rework of every single system you will never see anything on the level of WoWs early success ever again.
imagine how much time Stephen and the team waste prepping for a "showcase", when they could be cracking on with the development and getting the game release ready.
The way Tim Cain talked about 'vertical slice' (in a context of Fallout demo) is that it's a functional, actually playable piece of content, not just smoke and mirrors to show in a video.
This, vertical slice does not mean pre rendered footage that doesn’t actually reflect the actual gameplay, and if that’s what they were going for then it should’ve been disclaimed at the bottom of the screen. Literally all serious game studios do that, but Intrepid isn’t that.
@@rb7619yeah in 15:45 the fact that they use 'enviroment update' instead of 'concept' is just...
@rb7619 ive followed AoCs updates almost since the beginning and unless I'm remembering incorrectly Steven never said the demos of each biome was just a pretenders concept. He's always made it seem like it's a small piece of what they've already made for each biome (ill even be generous and say it's 80 to 90% of thr finished product with some pretenders pieces put in to flesh it out more).
So essentially Steven was at best being disingenuous and at worst straight up lying about what they've accomplished in each update showcase. Like Narc showed in the vid, the desert section they added could have been made in UE5 in minutes and looked nothing like what was shown in the desert biome update over a year ago. Something smells fishy, im sure they're making the game (obviously theres playable part already) but i think they're way further behind then they've ever indicated to the potential playerbase
@@rayman17420Yes, it's called a "scam" if you paid someone to mow your lawn and they keep coming up with excuses and asking for some more money while talking and showing you how they'll kow the lawn without actually doing it or doing part of it, then you obviously feel you're being ripped off/scammed, believe in yourself a little if "something is fishy" means it is fishy lol
And the vertical slice is basically a "playable concept art" with basic controls that gives idea to potential stakeholders about how the finished product will look and play like.
In this case if the sand area was the vertical slice then they should've made that available to people (since its a player funded project) to play and test and after the positive response is received then only ask for more funding so that this new functionality/Element would be added in the rest of the game.
What AoC Devs did was that they showed a gameplay video which people did not know whether was playable or not or just some ready-made UE5 artefacts thrown for the purpose of showcase and they promised that it was what the alpha would look like which is just false advertising
"Vertical Slice" is just another name for false advertising. It should be illegal.
If I make an ad that I sell cars, showing brand new Bugatti (omitting on purpose that what Im showing is not what I sell) and people who pay me would get beat down old Toyota, I would be put in a jail. But just because its a video game, its okay. Money is money. If I spend money on something expecting A, because A was shown to me, but I get B = IT IS A SCAM.
If Bugatti announced a new car they are planning to build then people will line up to buy it, and no one would bat an eye if at the point of announcing the car the car is not available as a finished product and it would take time for the car to be ready and no one would throw a hissy fit if in the middle of testing the car before it is released the car was not 100% done… expecting this from a game that is in an alpha that will probably be in alpha for probably another year and then 2 betas is actual insanity
Vertical slicing isn’t a bad thing if its actually a slice from the actual game !
@@Indy_rawr Except Steven has NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE that would show that product he is showing to us is real or that it will be real.
IT. IS. A. SCAM. Nothing more. Nothing less.
@@johnwick8516 The problem is exactly that - your "slice" doesnt need to be from anything you are selling. Its like giving a slice from a cake of a professional patisserie as an ad to sell your garbage, barely edible cake, but customers dont know its not the same cake before buying it.
@@Indy_rawr If Bugatti decides to scam its customers, I would be against that too. What's your point?
Listening to Steve Shariff try to salvage his $55 mil from what looks like a mid unreal engine sandbox has to be tough, especially at these interest rates.
He can go back to his previous scam companies to make money out of real estate
He got rich off MLM, literal scams…
That desert showcase was definitely "unreal fakery" given that the shipped version had nothing to do with the showcase content. Narc said nothing wrong.
3:58 was the dumbest thing I've heard him seriously say
And he doesnt even have a high bar for dumb things damn
and you're the purveyor of intelligence... okay!
@@theghoulshow was it not tho? :P
@@theghoulshow glazing his favorite streamer for free. I hope he sees this, lil guy.
He has no idea what a vertical slice is ahahaha
Ashes of creation always looked like a scam
Ashes of your money.
It's a modern pyramid scam
It's a "modern audience" scam... heard about this in 2017 or 2018, we are in 2025 ffs and is worse than scumcitizen atm
saying this for 4 years and people laughed at me for it. but thank god people are waking up.
@@clicky3751 only took you 20 years to wake up from WoWs scam lol
Josh warned y'all against hyping up the game years ago. Guess he was right.
idk still more fun then any mmo ive played since wow legion
@@jaden2758 lol broken game fun
@@jaden2758 good for you, I guess. Still, lots of people hype this game up to unreasonable expectations just to be disappointed. So it's better to look at it like a normal game, not some "MMO savior."
@@yunoyukki7344 the actual stuff that's broke are usually minor inconveniences
@@munduschungus valid def better to look at it for what it is then hype it up for what it's not
If you spent 250$ on an alpha from an unproven developer youre a fucking genius
Star Citizen: Rookie Numbers!
I know loads that paid that and more 😂
even if its a proven one lol pay money to work for them
@scalez9 at least the lead developer for Star Citizen has actually made games before
@Tzhz I'd change my social circles if I was you :)))
I honestly wonder if Narc got caught exploiting and was reset and in order to hide this and save face he has to quit playing Alpha 2 Phase 2 and all these arguments are just an excuse.
There is no way to prove either way if he does not play any more of Phase 2 as long as he used the same character name in Phase 1 and Phase 2.
Clearly asmond has a bias
Everyone has a bias lol. All the Narc fans here are even worse,
Yeah, Asmon is just defending his friend here, sad
How much was the alpha, $250? So if the game has a AAAAAAAAAA level price, it better have a AAAAAAAAAA level of polish. If it doesn't, well you're donating then.
It was donating lol, that wasn’t the problem. The problem was that people paid $250 and then later it was resold at a lower price to get more people’s money but didn’t refund the difference. Basically making the original buyers worse ofd
@@pwners4u oh now that’s way worse than I thought lol
Steven looks way to slimy the way he talks, aspects of his facial looks
He's definitely a sociopath taking advantage of gaming addicts. You'd be better off dumping money into gacha.
I'm pretty sure Asmon was overtly simping here whether he was paid or not he clearly was biased. You can run a list of even small developers who he has dumped on for far less (Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen immediately comes to mind). This was clearly a work, and anyone who gives them a pass while claiming to hold others accountable and be a source of truth and honesty is either willfully blind or just plain disingenuous.🤷♂️
Didn’t like this take from asmon, Steven is obviously making garbage that he sang words of praise for. Thank god I never bought this $300 game of trash.
Lol i love playing ashes. I play it every day and dont care to play any other MMO. You have never played it. You dont really have a relevant opinion.
If I paid 250 dollars for an unfinished pile of trash I’d defend it like you are too.
@ lmao its in alpha dude you ppl sure do talk alote about a game you don’t play.
@@glennmiller5772 I rest my case.
@@PfizZz same here you guys hate ashes so much you cant stop talking about it.
Having been a part of game dev and design, and a part of corporate America, this is just terrible management.
From a backend perspective, none of their systems are complex in the slightest. They are only complex in the sense that you convert loose ideas into concrete basic algorithms and data, which really isn’t that complex at all; it’s basically a typical requirement to even be in the industry, especially if you’re in a management position. The game isn’t indie and crowdfunded because it has to be. It’s indie and crowdfunded because it is the only way for this terrible management to be a part of it.
There is absolutely zero reason why the desert biome could not have been 100% completed since the time of the video where it was featured. And, I don’t mean this from a “throw more money at it” or “work really hard” perspective. I mean if from the perspective of that this is extremely basic and easy stuff that could have been done by a small group of 2-3 people during that timeframe, especially if you consider they already did a vertical slice of it and the end result expectations were already well-known.
This is just terrible management and beyond terrible logical thinking and planning.
This is what happens when you have leaders with high expectations and out there dreams, yet nothing of any sort of practicality nor aptitude to converting said things into concrete plans and actions.
You’re very generous to blame it on incompetence when it’s more likely to be malice IMO. In any case, whatever desert footage they showed was pre rendered and not recorded in game (another example of misleading).
It’s about time someone makes an expose on this mess.
@ Having been part of many processes over the years, I think it’s often the case with these crowdfunded games that you most definitely aren’t getting A-List people working on them; you’re getting like C-List or D-List people working on them. In the cases of like Chronicles of Elyria, you’re getting F-List people that are eventually expelled from school lol.
This ess licking was funny 😂. Especially when you mentioned Star Citizen as a game that is “still in development”. The biggest scam in game industry 😂
I think it is more serious than "just a communication issue". I think it's a lie and may even be a fraud. I have a hard time thinking of a legit reason not to even mention words like ideas, concepts, references, etc. when showcasing those fancy graphics in those preview livestreams.
it's really not. you would be laughed out of a courtroom before the hearing even starts.
@@johnsmith-de3tl lmao the court room? I am not making any legal claims just saying this is some sketchy representation of something non-existent
@@lf2gamefraud is a legal claim.
@@johnsmith-de3tl "may even be a fraud" learn to read please. Plus my key message is on the sketchy sales pitch. The video showed evidence of this. If you have concrete evidence showing it's not sketchy messaging, show your evidence. Otherwise, i wont waste my time reply to you anymore.
@@lf2game your claims, your burden of proof. that's how it works.using "may even be" is still a claim, your just hiding behind vague bs.
I keep wondering how much the aoc devs are paying streamers like asmon and piratesoftware to keep being this positive about the scam?
I think is more about elitism and VIP access. Big content creators are Hollywood celebrities 2.0. They get preferential treatment, insider gossip, VIP, etc. Steve is on this guys DMs and they like it that way. The more things change the more they stay the same.
If the game had been in alpha for 4 years and they're trying to charge you again, they're scammers. It's not rocket science. They're criminals.
I don't attribute incompetence to malice, but when'd the incompetence is happening over and over, is not incompetence, turns to malice
That's not how that works.
And incompetence implies a lack of mastery or care. Which is a ridiculous assumption to make when something so complicated is being created. When you build something, you understand it can be much more complicated than expected, sometimes. Making an MMO is very complicated.
These aren't difficult concepts.
Could you please explain where incompetence is? I work on game engines, specifically focusing on data storage features and networking, and from my professional point of view Ashes is exactly with in the parameters of how normal game development goes, especially a networked, server authoritative game. I think the issue from the beginning was opening up the development process to the public, because the public doesn't have the intelligence to understand the process. For example, we have you that knows nothing about creating massive networked, server authoritative games claiming to know what is incompetence and what is just normal. Every game feature goes through prototyping phases. Code is written, tests happen, the game breaks, you then patch and continue to prototype. At an alpha state most things have had a very small amount of testing. And the testing has generally consisted of small groups within the company. Steven opened up the game to people who want to test for the purpose of breaking the game and finding all the bugs faster, with a massive amount of people instead of small groups. This has been stated by the company, and the only thing that isn't industry standard about this is the fact that they are allowing real players to test instead of internal teams.
So please explain what you mean by "incompetence". Because I see a normal development process that is normally hidden from people like you. I have a feeling that you are just shocked to know how internal testing and development actually works.
Nah mate, incompetent people continue to be incompetent.
@@Manja500 I'm not saying the game is not on normal or standard programing process, I'm saying that, people doing what the guy is doing is turning into malice, because people in pointing obvious stuff and is ignoring on purpose and saying the problem is the people playing the game
@@herculanovalada2910 You just gave me a run-on sentence that communicates absolutely nothing. Give me actual examples of what you think is malicious and why you think that.
Overpromised, under delivered. The cultural phenomenon of a successful mmo is difficult to replicate.
Intrepid hasn't overpromised anything. Narc, and players like Narc, developed a sense of unrealistic expectations *themselves* and then got disappointed when the game did not meet those expectations. Expectations that weren't actually founded on any real facts. This is what happens when someone hyper-fixates on something they're interested in, but refuses to actually learn any real details about that thing they're interested in.
Asmon said as much in the video. It's common. It's a player problem. Not an AoC problem.
@@Tazytots wha? Steven himself acknowledged that some of the first game-footages wasn't even real. Sure there is some "sense of unrealistic expectations" but like, wha?
27:14 These are the same people that praised The Day Before and looked at how massive that flopped. You'd think people would learn but alast people are dumb af.
Games been in development for 9 whole years and theres not even a Beta 😂 Ashes has been a joke forever
Indie game Heartbound has been in development for 7 years. Games take time yo. 😂
9 years and the horse looks like this 0:23 LMAO
@@WhatssupYoo its a bug it looks great when it not bugged like what he showed
covid. "in devlopment" for 9 years with half of that being with the single digit of people
GTA 6 has been in development for like 12 years and still hasn’t been released.
The problem is using vertical slice for the reason of misleading customers and that looks like that’s what they did
"were fully funded"
*continues selling 250 dollar packs*
Asmon doesn't know Stevens past does he?
Enlighten me please
Explain so that the people can know.
He was a seller for a pyramid scheme. He is also investing is some weird things. Clearly has no business doing a mmo with his credentials. He probably just see this as an investment. Not even sure he is involved with it at all. And to be honest hire people who got fired cause they suck isn’t smart either. Damn asmon is falling for this cause he wants this to work so hard
@tjollarna asmon got sold the fake dream lol.
This game is about to be the new Star Citizen. Ask for a bunch of money up front and then use that money to spend the next 10 years in development making changes over and over and never actually pushing hard to get any finished product released while its fans just keep throwing money at them as "Support" to develop there dream game. I wont be surprised if in a years time they start adding other things for sale because the current money they got and are getting runs out and all the fans will keep throwing them thousands because they have a dream to see this game finished just like the Star Citizen fans. Also remember when testing games used to be a job you got paid for? Remember when devs used to have to include paying for game testers, The job role of QA. Now they dont pay people to test games they charge you hundrends to test there game for them and tell them what they should fix so they can make more money & sell there game better.
I have warned people for years about this game. I played ashes of creation apocalypse, the aoc cash grab battle royal. When I did play I recognized the assets. They were paragon assets that unreal released for free.
That's hilarious
This game was made by a MLM guy. I called it a scam 5 years ago and people told me to get lost.
Get lost
Get lost
Get lost
Them randomly 4xing the map mid development was the first red flag for me. No developer who knows what they are doing does that.
Get lost pal!😡
If they were running a legitimate business, they would embrace criticism as a method of improving their game.
Idk why hes approaching the discussion this way but it 100% feels like Asmons giving Steven way to much leeway and dismissing many valid pieces of info and straight up facts Narcs saying about how theyve handled the presentation of AoC over the last few years. Like others have pointed out already in the comments, a vertical slice is nowhere near the same as presenting a prerendered showcase as actual assets and completed parts of the game when in fact its just that, prerendered footage of what Steven and his team want the biome to look like. Its just weird since at most Asmon takes a more measured or even neutral stance when such things are being discussed.
Idk maybe im missing something but he seems to be giving Steven the benefit of the doubt, even over things that Steven obviously misled the community about (things he straight up admitted like saying most, if not all the showcases, so far arent based on real in game footage).
Alpha or not, bad communications or not (which i dont believe because the one thing Steven is a master of is sales so he knows how to properly convey his thoughts and info so anything misl3ading was purposely done imo) theres still a big disconnect between what Steven told the community ovwr these past few years and what was actually the truth.
Narc's problem with AOC's communication reminds me a lot of what Minecraft went through. During a Minecraft live a few years ago, they showed concept art of an improved birch forest. Their community naturally assumed that this concept art was a reflection of what would be in the update. However, the birch biome wasn't touched in the update; the concept was simply a concept. This led to massive blowback. Minecraft's team learned from that and stopped showing concept art in their announcements and now only announce what IS going to be in the game.
Very sensible response.
This game looks old even for 2021 standards.
Looks like age of conan mmo 😂
It went into production in 2016 so that makes sence
And it's going to be released in 2031 so it's far worse. It's called style and this game doesn't have it. @@michealrosen
@@knockout6998this game is never getting released.
@@michealrosen So 8 years already and they aren't even beta testing. The people involved now won't be around if and when it's finished in another 3 years, there will be other major titles out better than what they'll have, probably GW3 by then. If it ever comes out will ill be F2P immediately.
I have always wanted to do what Steven is doing and make my own MMO, so many of us have dreamed of it. I grew up with MMOs and I got tired of the way the games and the players were treated because the insane amount of money they generate attracts evil investor pirates, who just swoop in, hoover up all the cash before leaving the carcass and moving on. However seeing the state of MMO players and the amount of toddler temper tantrums is enough to make me say, nope that ship has sailed for me. I would rather make a single player RPG with the ability to invite friends into it. Steven acts like a AAA developer but people forget he was just a gamer who took his shot and managed to get some cash and actually succeed. Like any gamer/introvert he needs to work on his communication skills and make sure he and his paying testers are on board and on the same page as they most definitely are not. Steven is actually making progress unlike Mark Jacobs. THAT GUY is scammer, not Steven.
AoC WILL come out, Camelot Unchained WILL NOT. Learn to use words properly. Just because the game isn't where you think it should be does not mean its a scam. Steven just needs to really up his communication game. Steven is right, all you morons need to be banned from playing, testing, or watching AoC content until its ready to be played. I can't believe how many people start screeching at me when I discuss this. Its like the WoW pvp whiners and game doomers.
One of the few times I actually agree that censorship is needed to block the posts because oh my lord the crying and screaming is just over the top for you manchildren. I found a wow private server called UWow. Its a Russian server and one of the best coded Legion/WoD servers out there and even includes bots to play with during Dungeon runs, even Heroic and Mythic.
The peace and serenity that comes with playing with extremely well coded bots is mesmerizing. I never want to play with WoW players again. I am so spoiled now because I can actually enjoy the game without all the mental disability that comes with playing with the current playerbase.
Asmongold being an hypocrite wasn't on my bingo card for 2025...
He ha always been a hypocrite
Thats really not new lol
You must be new, him being a hypocrite is the whole framing on the bingo sheet.
it's the free space in the middle on mine
20:45 "Noooo you don't understand guys, he's never made a game before so he doesn't know he can't scam people so obviously" 😂😂
MMOs are literally the worst type of game for a new dev to make too considering how complex they are to make. I don't trust no name studios to make MMOs like this without any previous games in their lineup. There's been so many scams, rug pulls, and mismanaged garbage like these over the years idk how ppl keep falling for it.
@@mercus.7634 it's like communism, this time we have your interests in mind, just let us centrally manage the economy...