Protestant here. While we work out our differences, can we just take a moment to celebrate this season in which God is clearly starting to bring us together.
Amen. And we need to unite and speak in charity. The world is more intent on persecuting Christians than ever. May God keep us strong. Glory to Jesus Christ.
Church will never remove papacy, indulgences, purgatory, marian dogmas. And sola scriptura will forever be Protestantism’s middle finger pointing at the pope and council. Peace for the sake of a season of human sentiment is slightly insincere.
There's something I really appreciate and love about two Christians having an intellectual conversation about God, heaven etc including thoughts many of us may have and just being very real about it without disrespect. It makes me happy + it's very interesting to listen to. thanks so much for that!
Very interesting. I've been thinking about something related, recently, and I've been reminded of C.S. Lewis' quote "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else." What this means is that Christianity is not purely propositional, i.e., God exists, Jesus rose from the dead, therefore, Christianity is true, but also experiential in the sense that it gives us a story to live in and affords us a great world of meaning and purpose; it shapes and makes sense of the world we live in, such that certain things which we could not quite put our finger on before seem so obvious to us now. Here is one way I like to analogize this: suppose that there is a man with terrible vision, and his perception of the material world is extremely blurry. He can not differentiate between dog and cat or car and bus based on vision alone. He is, for all intents and purposes, blind. One day, an ophthalmologist walks up to him and says, "Here, try on this pair of glasses, it will help you see better." The man with blurry vision may put on the pair of glasses, see the world for what it truly is, and not be able to give a single reason evidentially as to why the lens of the glasses work and fit his eyes in particular. The axiom that justifies belief that the glasses work is not based on a proposition or evidence, per se, but faith, that is, trust in the device because of the world that it has afforded them. Likewise, if someone is plagued with a disease and a doctor gives them a cure and the disease goes away, the patient needn't be able to articulate any reason why or how the cure worked, but simply, that it did, and thus faith in the cure is justified. Later on, the patient may seek to understand the reasons for why the cure worked and then explain it to other people such that they may also participate in the cure. This is, I think, the best way to understand faith in the Christian sense. It is not blind assent to a proposition such as "God exists," but faith in God based on how participation in the Divine nature shapes and makes sense of our perception of the world, i.e., basic metaphysics, the material world, the moral sphere, etc. Propositional arguments for God's existence and the Christian religion can and must be given, but one must also "try on the glasses" or "take the medicine" so to speak, in order to not just the see the light of Christ, but see also how his light illuminates everything else. In other words, don't _just_ spend all your time studying the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, though this is certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but also _participate in Christ_ and see what world he has to give you. Christ helps us to distinguish right from wrong, for example, which we could not understand before but cannot now unsee because of Him. Practically, this means going to Church, participating in the liturgy, prayer, reading Scripture, etc. It may be difficult to understand these things, and, certainly, we will go our entire lives confronted by things we do not understand, but our faith grows, nevertheless, when we see how participation in the mysteries forms and enlightens our understanding of the world. We must learn how to swim in these waters so mysterious! A man who spends his days swimming, though he does not understand completely the waters, gradually becomes more fish-like. A Christian who spends his life participating in the Divine life, though so limited is his understanding of it, gradually becomes more Christlike, and this mystery we must embrace with passion.
Thanks for this, Matt. The way you put words (or lack thereof lol) to your experience helps me articulate mine. Gavin, you’re awesome. Thanks for doing what you do for Christ. Praying for both of you boldly at the throne of grace.
Amazing talk. I love your vulnerabilit Matt. I have the same doubts about "is this all just a ridiculous idea?" But then I also feel like Gavin. It's just a feeling in my heart.
When talking about the afterlife, I haven't heard much thought given to the mental anguish of knowing others, potentially loved ones, are eternally suffering in hell. Any good resources or answers for this?
I'm sorry my friend. I'm afraid this thought haunts us all. Idk if this will help but, very often, our first instinct when confronted with this is to look for resources to put our mind at ease. And while that will help in the short-term, the knowledge that we cannot ultimately know who will be saved and who will be damned. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you are feeling despair, step back and stop reading every compilation of quotes. You don't have to know every single thing that the church fathers or any saints said about this. I read this in a Reddit thread once: Remember that if God removes our transgressions from us "as far as the east is from the west" (Psalm 102/103:12), His mercy most certainly extends far beyond what any of us can comprehend and will presumably transcend our own standards.
It’s wonderful seeing a prominent Protestant and a prominent Catholic having a very friendly and productive dialogue. We have way more in common than not.
"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s a small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say." -- Puddleglum, The Silver Chair, C.S. Lewis
Arguments can be powerful. The reason why I call myself an agnostic rather an atheist is because the cosmological argument is, for me, absolutely unanswerable and still keeps me awake at night.
I suppose my resistance to Pascal's Wager has always been a) prayer and action motivated by "eh I'll just do it to hedge my bets" doesn't count for getting into Heaven ("depart from me, i never knew you") and b) there is a serious cost you pay in this life by adopting these beliefs, it isn't as free as it is potentially suggested. Also, the emotive qualities you assign to the world without God are subjective. I don't share them at all.
I think about it like this. If God is real (and He is), your prayers and attempt to cooperation with His Grace should be enough to make you see that He is real. Once you see that, then surely that would help sway your motivations to the right reasons, yeah?
@thementalist1213 that hasn't worked thus far. I've attended mass, prayed the rosary and been to adoration, not to mention I follow and consume a not insubstantial amount of Catholic content. None of that has resulted in anything that speaks to the existence of a deity, and has in fact just demanded my time and attention for no return at all. (besides Pints of course, I enjoy watching most of Matt's content). Of course there is no reason for you to believe me when I say I've tried, but there we are.
I have always been struck by the very first words of Jesus recorded in John's Gospel: "What are you seeking?" What would need to be different about your current experience to make you want to become a follower of Jesus? It sounds like you've had some interest for a while, too. What spurred that interest?
Faith is an attitude towards God and towards the order He established. A commitment to a certain proposition. Also, your critique against Pascal's Wager is a classic non-argument: you feel that a faith-based life without a strong feeling of assurance on its principles is vain. Source?? Otherwise, seems emotion-based. Especially when saying "there is a serious cost you pay in this life" it seems you're referring to the loss of pleasure when you stop engaging in a sinful lifestyle. Which you then try to rationalize by trying to convince yourself that the faith where you commit to a certain proposition with your life isn't authentic enough, so why bother?
Thinking about Christ crucified and risen, which is such an unusual way to start a worldwide faith that would endure severe persecutions from the start really made the other faiths and their founders pale in comparison though they do have some elements of truth. Forgiveness for evil done, empowerment to change, and love was vastly better than just living for worldly pleasures & goals.
It is often our pride that puffs us up with a love of all our complex doctrines and theology. It is not that love which can save us, but only the love of the gospel, the love of Christ. At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:1-4
Okay, and? This is not the Gotcha argument that you think that it is. If there are no gods and one lived as an atheist, then he didn't waste his finite time, money, and effort on something that wasn't true. That's more than enough reward.
@@Charlotte_Martel even if God isn't true though, the Christian still didn't waste their time. Meeting your wife/husband, having your kids, where you find joy, involvement in your community and town, spreading joy, all of that is objectively true and happens in the life of a Christian, and, for the Christian, happens through the means of the outlet of Christianity
The Christian afterlife is one of main reasons why I find the religion so off-putting. I want to know what's true and good because that's the best use of my limited time here on Earth. Whatever comes after is not my concern. Stop trying to sell me the faith with the afterlife.
Pascal’s wager is a deeply cynical and self-serving approach to God, and Jesus said that unless we become like little children we can have no part in the kingdom of heaven.
An interesting thought but it just doesn’t work . Your faith will be like the foolish man who built his house on the sand . You will lose your faith as soon as you face an issue in life . Faith is a gift that we can nurture through prayer and reading or listening to the word of God! We cannot trick ourselves into believing just like we cannot trick ourselves into loving someone
Hallelujah!!!!! Your channel has been a big part of my transformation, God is good. I had a $37,000 loan from the bank for my son's(Bryan) brain surgery. I am now dept free after I invested $8,000 and got my payment of $25,500 each month. God bless Ms Kathleen Mary Vella.
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US amd abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
I’ve always thought it’s a deeply cynical approach to God; and Jesus has said that unless we become like little children we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
Protestant here. While we work out our differences, can we just take a moment to celebrate this season in which God is clearly starting to bring us together.
@@MarinusSwanepoel-h3q remember Babel.. is it better for us to became us one or not…
Amen. And we need to unite and speak in charity. The world is more intent on persecuting Christians than ever. May God keep us strong. Glory to Jesus Christ.
Church will never remove papacy, indulgences, purgatory, marian dogmas. And sola scriptura will forever be Protestantism’s middle finger pointing at the pope and council. Peace for the sake of a season of human sentiment is slightly insincere.
@@kimkimaralte430 Ephesians 1:10 says that the plan is to unite all things under Christ
@@gbnessdot96 It's not human sentiment. It's literally in the Bible.
There's something I really appreciate and love about two Christians having an intellectual conversation about God, heaven etc including thoughts many of us may have and just being very real about it without disrespect. It makes me happy + it's very interesting to listen to. thanks so much for that!
Very interesting. I've been thinking about something related, recently, and I've been reminded of C.S. Lewis' quote "I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else." What this means is that Christianity is not purely propositional, i.e., God exists, Jesus rose from the dead, therefore, Christianity is true, but also experiential in the sense that it gives us a story to live in and affords us a great world of meaning and purpose; it shapes and makes sense of the world we live in, such that certain things which we could not quite put our finger on before seem so obvious to us now. Here is one way I like to analogize this: suppose that there is a man with terrible vision, and his perception of the material world is extremely blurry. He can not differentiate between dog and cat or car and bus based on vision alone. He is, for all intents and purposes, blind. One day, an ophthalmologist walks up to him and says, "Here, try on this pair of glasses, it will help you see better." The man with blurry vision may put on the pair of glasses, see the world for what it truly is, and not be able to give a single reason evidentially as to why the lens of the glasses work and fit his eyes in particular. The axiom that justifies belief that the glasses work is not based on a proposition or evidence, per se, but faith, that is, trust in the device because of the world that it has afforded them. Likewise, if someone is plagued with a disease and a doctor gives them a cure and the disease goes away, the patient needn't be able to articulate any reason why or how the cure worked, but simply, that it did, and thus faith in the cure is justified. Later on, the patient may seek to understand the reasons for why the cure worked and then explain it to other people such that they may also participate in the cure.
This is, I think, the best way to understand faith in the Christian sense. It is not blind assent to a proposition such as "God exists," but faith in God based on how participation in the Divine nature shapes and makes sense of our perception of the world, i.e., basic metaphysics, the material world, the moral sphere, etc. Propositional arguments for God's existence and the Christian religion can and must be given, but one must also "try on the glasses" or "take the medicine" so to speak, in order to not just the see the light of Christ, but see also how his light illuminates everything else. In other words, don't _just_ spend all your time studying the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth, though this is certainly a worthwhile pursuit, but also _participate in Christ_ and see what world he has to give you. Christ helps us to distinguish right from wrong, for example, which we could not understand before but cannot now unsee because of Him. Practically, this means going to Church, participating in the liturgy, prayer, reading Scripture, etc. It may be difficult to understand these things, and, certainly, we will go our entire lives confronted by things we do not understand, but our faith grows, nevertheless, when we see how participation in the mysteries forms and enlightens our understanding of the world. We must learn how to swim in these waters so mysterious! A man who spends his days swimming, though he does not understand completely the waters, gradually becomes more fish-like. A Christian who spends his life participating in the Divine life, though so limited is his understanding of it, gradually becomes more Christlike, and this mystery we must embrace with passion.
Beautifully and insightfully said. I appreciate this.
Thanks for this, Matt. The way you put words (or lack thereof lol) to your experience helps me articulate mine.
Gavin, you’re awesome. Thanks for doing what you do for Christ.
Praying for both of you boldly at the throne of grace.
Amazing talk. I love your vulnerabilit Matt. I have the same doubts about "is this all just a ridiculous idea?" But then I also feel like Gavin. It's just a feeling in my heart.
When talking about the afterlife, I haven't heard much thought given to the mental anguish of knowing others, potentially loved ones, are eternally suffering in hell.
Any good resources or answers for this?
I'm sorry my friend. I'm afraid this thought haunts us all.
Idk if this will help but, very often, our first instinct when confronted with this is to look for resources to put our mind at ease. And while that will help in the short-term, the knowledge that we cannot ultimately know who will be saved and who will be damned.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you are feeling despair, step back and stop reading every compilation of quotes. You don't have to know every single thing that the church fathers or any saints said about this.
I read this in a Reddit thread once:
Remember that if God removes our transgressions from us "as far as the east is from the west" (Psalm 102/103:12), His mercy most certainly extends far beyond what any of us can comprehend and will presumably transcend our own standards.
It’s wonderful seeing a prominent Protestant and a prominent Catholic having a very friendly and productive dialogue. We have way more in common than not.
"Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things-trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that’s a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We’re just babies making up a game, if you’re right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That’s why I’m going to stand by the play world. I’m on Aslan’s side even if there isn’t any Aslan to lead it. I’m going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn’t any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we’re leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that’s a small loss if the world’s as dull a place as you say."
-- Puddleglum, The Silver Chair, C.S. Lewis
I love this Protestant guy. I love when you both talk about how good God is. I love God.
I think you're talking about the gift of faith. Faith is a gift. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Amen
The timing of this one was perfect. Also reminds me of the opening of Benedict XVI’s Introduction to Christianity on doubt, which is just marvellous
Arguments can be powerful. The reason why I call myself an agnostic rather an atheist is because the cosmological argument is, for me, absolutely unanswerable and still keeps me awake at night.
I suppose my resistance to Pascal's Wager has always been a) prayer and action motivated by "eh I'll just do it to hedge my bets" doesn't count for getting into Heaven ("depart from me, i never knew you") and b) there is a serious cost you pay in this life by adopting these beliefs, it isn't as free as it is potentially suggested.
Also, the emotive qualities you assign to the world without God are subjective. I don't share them at all.
I think about it like this. If God is real (and He is), your prayers and attempt to cooperation with His Grace should be enough to make you see that He is real. Once you see that, then surely that would help sway your motivations to the right reasons, yeah?
@thementalist1213 that hasn't worked thus far. I've attended mass, prayed the rosary and been to adoration, not to mention I follow and consume a not insubstantial amount of Catholic content. None of that has resulted in anything that speaks to the existence of a deity, and has in fact just demanded my time and attention for no return at all. (besides Pints of course, I enjoy watching most of Matt's content).
Of course there is no reason for you to believe me when I say I've tried, but there we are.
@@EspadaKing777 I have no reason to not believe you either. And I'm sorry you are in that state. If it's any consolation, I will pray for you as well.
I have always been struck by the very first words of Jesus recorded in John's Gospel: "What are you seeking?"
What would need to be different about your current experience to make you want to become a follower of Jesus?
It sounds like you've had some interest for a while, too. What spurred that interest?
Faith is an attitude towards God and towards the order He established. A commitment to a certain proposition. Also, your critique against Pascal's Wager is a classic non-argument: you feel that a faith-based life without a strong feeling of assurance on its principles is vain. Source?? Otherwise, seems emotion-based. Especially when saying "there is a serious cost you pay in this life" it seems you're referring to the loss of pleasure when you stop engaging in a sinful lifestyle. Which you then try to rationalize by trying to convince yourself that the faith where you commit to a certain proposition with your life isn't authentic enough, so why bother?
Thinking about Christ crucified and risen, which is such an unusual way to start a worldwide faith that would endure severe persecutions from the start really made the other faiths and their founders pale in comparison though they do have some elements of truth. Forgiveness for evil done, empowerment to change, and love was vastly better than just living for worldly pleasures & goals.
Hello... the host and the Guest... My question is.. IS CHRISTIANITY PRACTICAL?OR A BUNDLE OF THEORIES...
It is often our pride that puffs us up with a love of all our complex doctrines and theology. It is not that love which can save us, but only the love of the gospel, the love of Christ.
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
- Matthew 18:1-4
I have actually said to an atheist, they'll never get the chance to say 'i told you so'.
Okay, and? This is not the Gotcha argument that you think that it is. If there are no gods and one lived as an atheist, then he didn't waste his finite time, money, and effort on something that wasn't true. That's more than enough reward.
@@Charlotte_Martel even if God isn't true though, the Christian still didn't waste their time. Meeting your wife/husband, having your kids, where you find joy, involvement in your community and town, spreading joy, all of that is objectively true and happens in the life of a Christian, and, for the Christian, happens through the means of the outlet of Christianity
The Christian afterlife is one of main reasons why I find the religion so off-putting. I want to know what's true and good because that's the best use of my limited time here on Earth. Whatever comes after is not my concern. Stop trying to sell me the faith with the afterlife.
Especially since there's no way to confirm the existence of any afterlife by its very definition.
I like Matt and how he is sharing how deeply he praise God thru in this conversation.. and that post below me is a bot
Pascal’s wager is a deeply cynical and self-serving approach to God, and Jesus said that unless we become like little children we can have no part in the kingdom of heaven.
Leaving a comment because you asked me to, as a favor.
😅
Hi, can someone tell me who Matt mentioned at the very start, the transcript show Bon by Pascal ? Thanks in advance...
The book was Pensees by Blaise Pascal.
@@rupertknapman9639 Thank you.
@@Paul-lw6og You're welcome.
Hey Matt! Have you tried loving as though Islam is true, because what if you're wrong?
Pascal's Wager is the worst argument.
But it doesn’t work though..
An interesting thought but it just doesn’t work . Your faith will be like the foolish man who built his house on the sand . You will lose your faith as soon as you face an issue in life . Faith is a gift that we can nurture through prayer and reading or listening to the word of God! We cannot trick ourselves into believing just like we cannot trick ourselves into loving someone
I hope this goes viral.
Radiate Christ and captivate souls.
👍
Quite possibly the worst message/vision to young Christians possible
Hallelujah!!!!! Your channel has been a big part of my transformation, God is good. I had a $37,000 loan from the bank for my son's(Bryan) brain surgery. I am now dept free after I invested $8,000 and got my payment of $25,500 each month. God bless Ms Kathleen Mary Vella.
God bless you more abundantly for your generosity
But then, what do you do? How do you come about that in that period?
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US amd abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
Thanks to God, my daughter who introduced me into the digital market. Moreso, thanks to Ms *Kathleen Mary Vella*
***NOTE: this is not a promotion but me trying to make a point that no matter what happens, always have faith and keep living!
Just try Islam bro, it might be true.
Gavin is a G.
i love when the guy from shameless popery makes this guy clown Gavin look like a real clown. Cant even watch him anymore all i see is a clown
Isn’t this the never-Trump climate-change guy?
There is no sincerity in taking up Mr. Pascal's wager, and I doubt our Lord has much use for pretend prayer.
I’ve always thought it’s a deeply cynical approach to God; and Jesus has said that unless we become like little children we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.