@@LeonSonnleitnerdoes your dad play disc golf? think I played with him in Hungary in the summer.. similar name anyway, Austrian, nice guy, very big hands..!
I never write a comment on things… but brother… you just showed me what was wrong in my form after this whole year having my film watched. It was a total different feeling. Your section on what’s done wrong here is unreal pro tips
The most impressive thing to me in this video is how hard Leon hard to work to try and emulate bad form elements, to show people what not to do. This is a problem most people want to have.
Literally just did a dry swing doing this in the house and I've never felt my core so engaged in the throwing motion. Can't wait to try this in a field! Thanks for all the videos!
Leon, You use your off arm so well without even thinking about it or talking about. Many levels of players can not get their off arm to look as effortless as you make it seem. If you put your off arm in a bad position you would not be able to do anything in this video and maybe injury yourself. please please make a video about how you use your off arm because you don't even know how good it is because you never talk about it or might not even think about it because it is so natural to you lol good series
thanks a lot! I will do a video about the off arm. As you said to me that came almost 100% natural so I will have to think about everything surrounding the off arm and then make the video!!
@@LeonSonnleitner You're the best. The off arm is something that I really struggle with. You see at 9:51 you drive you off arm down right before the disc which gives you that shoulder rotation. If you bend you off arm, leave it out more or put you off arm somewhere else you'll see how bad your throws are or how much power you'll lose. Seeing you put you off arm in different positions would be interesting.
Another great lesson Leon for all of us that are always trying to throw more effectively. The twist tension buildup(loading the core) between the shoulders and hips, and only until that brace foot is down, begin the shoulder and hips turn through. It all happens so fast but like in any sport, only repetitive practice for this #1 priority drill throw sequence. Again, keeping the throwing arm LOOSE should never be forgotten to create that sling shot release. They always say to beginners, and even struggling players: "Don't step and throw at the same time!". The release point is also important, which I like to see at 10 o'clock. That would be a good tip lesson for a future video. We all appreciate you doing these lessons in your native Austria in the late fall/early winter weather. Keep stressing that the only way to achieve that good form goal after seeing oneself on video is to practice, Practice, PRACTICE!. When you throw without having to think about all the must do's while throwing a disc, your throws will become CONSISTANTLY identical.....and that is all professional disc golfers do. Happy Holidays Leon! and all of us can't wait on what you'll share with us next!🙂Sincerely, Bill M., PDGA #7378 & lifelong promoter of the game we love!😃
Really helpful. I was having trouble figuring out where my hips should be during reach back. Your explanation and the video replay make it easy to understand what I need to do. Thanks very much!
Holy shit. I've been playing pretty regularly for seven years. Max distance is the weakest part of my game by a good margin (I'm just under 2m tall with long limbs and halfway athletic, so it shouldn't be). Thank you for finally making me realize what's been holding me back. I've been rotating my hips back during the reach back along with my shoulders for forever, without realizing it! 🤯🤯🤯 It's proving to be a hard habit to break. It's a subtle-looking form change to the naked eye, but makes a lot of difference in generating snap/explosiveness. Everyone needs to see this video!
Thanks for your commitment, skill and energy. I like that you haven’t looked at too much form stuff on the Tube. It means you bring your own style. Keeping it real. Ta
Amazing stuff Sensei! EASILY the best disc golf coach! like 10 mins of your videos have me effortlessly throwing another 60-90 feet than I was after playing 2 rounds, and with the big muscles of the body doing the work rather than my labrum feeling like it's tearing. I've been struggling for 2 years watching all these videos that are like "Then be in this position then be in this position then put your leg at this angle and your arm at this angle" bla bla bla.... which is all worthless, because you can't calculate 300 things when you're throwing, you just need to understand how to feel what generates the power and then practice to hone it.
Thanks so much! Super happy to hear about your quick improvement. I definitely agree with you, having too many thoughts will almost always lead to thinking too much during the Swing!
I'd love to see you talk about spin on the disc and how it's created. There is almost nothing available on UA-cam about it. I have a Tech Disc now, and I struggle with getting enough spin on full backhand throws. I'm typically under 900 RPMs.
I wanted to come back to comment this, thank you so much for making these videos. After watching this video everything finally clicked for my form, had the chance to implement it today and got my first ace as well.
Thank you for this lesson. I just did a "dry run" in my house. What a difference. Had no idea I was not creating any tension because my hips were with my shoulders pointing back. I'm in my early 50s, just over a year into DG. Forehand everything, but now have tendonitis in my throwing arm, so backhand it is! I'm throwing further, and cannot wait to try this on a course ASAP.
@LeonSonnleitner I must thank You a lot. Now starting my 5th season in disc golf, and till this video I still couldnt understand that one thing I am doing wrong (stuck at 120m) Tension -> plant foot -> rotate 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
I used to turn hips back too much and then I corrected and starting rotating hips early. Never found the ideal timing so far. I think this video will help me a lot! Thank you 😊
I have actually been working these things out on my own this year in my first year of playing. But the hips against my shoulders was the missing piece. Can't wait for this snow to go away to get out the field for some work on this. Thank you so much for these videos. BEST CONTENT BY FAR!
Man. I never comment and have never had that aha moment. Thank you for making it finally click. One day in the field and i added 30-50 effortless feet to my throws hitting lines easily. I just need to stay consistent and build up the muscle memory.
Another fantastic video - I've been playing for around 8 years now, and have quite a bit of bad muscle memory (which is hard to overcome ) that prevents me from getting effortless 400+ ft power. This video, the hip , and off arm videos are enormously helpful / key form mistakes. I think I realized why people suffer in the mistake portion - if you look back at your disc during the throw, it seems like your hips are likely going to open and be in alignment with your open shoulders. In contrast, if you keep your eye on the target (over your right shoulder), i don't think your hips will open as easy. Those open hips in the reach back, OR opening during the pull, before the plant foot hits the ground are absolute power killers. Amazing to think through that. I have one question or video suggestion and that is in the actual pull of the disc. I think this varries by pro, but I was watching Anthony Barela warm up at a tour event.... He would reach back, then bring the disc to his chest, and then rotate through.... vs simply pulling in a straight line, where I think you miss the mechanical advantage of the arm/elbow loading the disc into the power pocket and then it exploding out from your hip and shoulders opening. Are you actively thinking about setting the disc to your chest with your hand, or do you just pull through. Last time I played it felt VERY weird to set the disc at my chest, but I got noticably more power without even feeling like I was throwing hard...doing that. You're a great instructor, thank you!
I personally never think about "pulling" at all. My guess is AB doesn't do that either and was Just doing some Warmup Drill or something that works for him. Either way, If something Works Well for you, keep doing it! Thanks for watching
Can’t stress enough how thankful I am for your help. My accuracy the past few rounds has been the best it ever has been my distance is effortless. My right glute is also sore, while my shoulder feels nothing. Thanks man. Any thoughts on the plant foot landing toe/heel versus planting on the whole inside of the foot and “rolling” the weight over the whole foot during the brace? When I go toe/heel I always open my hips early, and I think that’s very common with new players
Thanks a lot, happy to hear that! I honestly have never thought about heel/toe stuff actively. I think the reason you might open up early when planting on your toes is that you might turn your hips too far back because of it, but it is impossible to tell without looking at it unfortunately. Thanks for watching!
Great video!! Keep it up!! Quick question about the planting foot. Do you consciously think about getting on the heel and rotating or is it more of a natural thing?
Should the head in the power pocket be perpendicular to the target and in the same "angle" as the hips? You, Paul McBeth and Simon Lizotte seem to do so. Drew Gibson is maybe looking a bit more backwards, but in the power pocket he aligns his head with the hips. For me, thinking about the head position helped me improve. Before I was looking backwards in the same angle as my shoulders. Drew talks about a fist of distance between the sholder and the head. Thank you for your videos!
good question that would take a loooong time to answer. I definitely think opening up the head too far back (as you said) is not ideal. I might do a video about this and fully explain my opinion on that. Generally, I think Paul and Barela are my favorites when I think about head movement but there are many pros who do this well. Thanks for watching!
Thanks so much! There definitely are drills for that! One thing I used to do into the net when I was younger was to just stand on my left foot and from that only do the last step. That really makes you learn the feeling of "loading up" in my opinion!
Hey man, I don't know If you'r on Reddit but I have to make sure you see this little content about you that i found there: "His hip movement video is the next best thing after Shakira!" 😆😆
Love these videos. I'd love to hear more about how you ensure that your throwing shoulder doesn't collapse across your chest and cause rounding when you are starting with the hips and keeping the arm loose. I'm thinking there must be something with timing, but not sure what motion you are using to get into the pocket so cleanly with a lag motion. It would seem that you need to maintain some shoulder/arm integrity as you rotate your upper body in order to get the disc in the right position. Your timing between the offarm, front foot down and the reachback is impeccable.
"It would seem that you need to maintain some shoulder/arm integrity as you rotate your upper body in order to get the disc in the right position" Yes. Took me a long time (too long) to realize this, and that being 'as loose as you can' was over-doing it in my case. I was struggling with my bicep against my chest and disc bouncing around behind me in an overzealous effort to be 'super loose' and lag. Look at the slow motion shot at 10:08 and specifically the right arm position at 10:12. This is as smooth a shot as you will ever see. And yet obviously Leon's arm and shoulder could be way more loose than shown here, if he took 'be as loose as possible' too literally. The arm is horizontal, parallel to the ground, and the shoulder rigid enough that the elbow is kept level with or slightly above the wrist. The arm then extends back, and then at 10:15 with the disc in the 'pp' position the upper arm is more or less in exactly the position that it was at 10:12, while the forearm is pointing at the camera (rather than out to 90 degrees as it was at 10:12). From here the shoulders turn and the disc is pulled forward on a line, slinging out from a loose forearm and released toward the target. Obviously I am keen to hear Leon's analysis, but what I take from this and other footage is that the upper arm and shoulder have to have some rigidity; they are responsible for keeping themselves from collapsing and thus eliminating the whipping mechanism that transfers leg and hip power into the disc. Meanwhile it's the lower arm and wrist that are really loose as can be, and are allowed to fling or punch out going into the hit. Thank you Leon for another excellent video. Showing these shots from directly behind is something I have wished was done more often; it is extremely illustrative of the simple components of good mechanics.
@@overfiend75 That was well said. I'm thinking you are correct about the lower arm and wrist being loosy goosy and the upper arm sorta fixed. Now to figure out how to do it :D
@@dwmichaels No kidding. Struggle's real. For "sorta fixed," correct. Think about how some coaches preach rigorously keeping the upper arm somewhere around 90 degrees to the chest (pros violate this, but it's a good starting point IMO). This obviously cannot be maintained if the shoulder's only function is to be a 'noodle' attaching the arm to the torso. Similarly: coaches teach to keep the elbow up (sigh), lead with the elbow, etc. Again, these things are not possible if the shoulder isn't supporting the elbow and keeping it aloft. The upper arm has to be stable-but-loose-enough that when the body's momentum comes up against the brace, the arm swings the disc forward, rather than simply letting it bash into the left side of the body. Smooth, but not sloppy.
first of all, thanks for your comment and your kind words! In my opinion you can and should stay loose in the arm. That only works if your runup is right though. Otherwise your arm will always "collapse" into your body. I did a video called "HOW TO FIX YOUR RUNUP" where I talk about exactly that.
@@LeonSonnleitner I watched that. That really helped me with a stride that was likely too long and foot placement that was likely too far apart. That is where I developed the challenge of getting the disc into the pocket. I either need to use my upper arm to pull the disc into the pocket area at some point or when I throw, my arm is too far on the left side of my body. I expect it's some intentional movement at some particular time. My challenge is I'm old and learning these athletic movements, so things which might be natural to folks who learned when they were young, are not natural to me :) Keep these up though. The more folks like you talk through the form, the more folk like me pick up. Small nuances that can make a big difference.
Please please pretty please mention anterior pelvic tilt. It steals a *shitton* of distance and people end up hurting knees and lower backs because of it. You don't have it, so bracing and loading correctly is easy for you, but 40+ guys who sit in an office most days will have it pretty much without exception.
You are definitely right. The problem is that I don't know what throwing feels like for anyone but me so I wouldn't feel comfortable telling everybody with an anterior pelvic tilt on how to throw with their physical situations. The good news is that pelvic tilts are fixable with physical work though!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the "hit" portion of the swing. I've heard backhand teachers saying that you must consciously accelerate the arm after the power pocket in order to create the speed at the "hit." Do you use this technique or are you simply keeping your arm loose and letting the hips do the work?
How do you imagine the disc is accelerated, if not by the arm? It doesnt matter if its concious or not. You need to accelerate the arm. You can try out on your own what happens, if you let the arms just hang down totally loose and then swivel around the hips. The disc will go 5 feet.
I actually did a video called "HOW TO FIX YOUR THROWING ARM" where I explain my stance on this exact topic! The quick answer is I keep my arm loose, once the rotation starts there will be some (automatic!) tension forming in the right places anyways!
@@LeonSonnleitner even if it feels automatic, from a bio-physical standpoint this is wrong. It probably feels automatic, because you accelerate the arm subconciously. Ps thanks for the hip video. Its very intuitively made and helpful.
In older form videos they warned of not separating the hips from shoulders to avoid back injuries. I wonder how warranted that is/was. I would say do be careful to anyone trying this to not rotate hard or fast at the lower spine.
I think that was based off the old golf version of the X-factor that focused on the separation largely occurring the downswing or forward swing and people were getting injured, vs the newer X-factor version where the separation is largely occurring the backswing which takes a lot of the stress off the lumbar spine. It's not the separation that is the issue, but the timing of it. My "Inside Swing Drill" talks about x-factor and gets you fully wound up in the backswing and any move you make with the lower body starts to unwind everything together in ground up sequence as it should. ua-cam.com/video/FWasFdvnGio/v-deo.htmlm5s
great question! Hip/shoulder separation has been a big thing in sports biomechanics in many many sports for a long time actually. For some reason disc golf seems to lag a bit behind regarding general rules of biomechanics which is clearly visible on UA-cam because there are a bunch of "form coaches" who absolutely disregard the basics of biomechanics. Like any other athletic movement, the quality and the quantity matter. In my experience physical problems almost never occur because of big hip/shoulder separation. With that being said, the dose makes the poison in every sport!
Your videos are SO good and your form is fantastic. However, when you turn away from the target on a reach back, what you call "open", I call "closed". Am I wrong about this?
thanks a lot! You are definitely not wrong. We are both right. I know that I use the terminology the opposite way of some people but that is just because it makes more sense to me when I think about it. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your way of thinking though!
if you watch your example frame by frame, it looks like the arm goes 1st and then the hips. or at least they start at the same time but the arm moves faster..
My arm is being pulled through by the hips! Obviously that means that they will (almost) start moving at the same time, but that is not what hip/shoulder separation is about. It is about that tiny difference in timing and the hips starting the movement.
@@LeonSonnleitner i see what you are saying, its kinda like, if you hunch your back and pop your hands down and extend one hand down as far as you can, as soon as you try to move the other hand down, it bring the 1st one UP. you coil against your hips as much as possible. and as soon are you turn your hips it triggers the arm to start.
Leon, Please explain what your off-arm and driving arm are doing too. The off-arm should be driving down while the driving arm is bending forward, before the hip release, which I recall you mentioning before, and many others such as Overthrow and DGSpinDoctor mention. You can’t have a loose arm, as it would collapse under, which significantly reduces any leverage of the disc. DGSpinDoctor even mentions this directly in comment to your form from another viewer - it’s not possible to have a loose arm throughout the throw. This is the least impactful video of your past videos. I’d like to see you explain more about the brace leg, and pushing with brace and/or back leg (even though you disagree with back leg pressure), which is far more important than hip/shoulder separation for more intermediate/advanced viewers who already know there’s no forced shoulder rotation, as it’s a function of brace/brace pressure.
I actually already did a video on the throwing arm. I have never said anything about the off arm going anywhere. You can have a loose arm as the tension will naturally form in the right places once the rotation starts. The goal is not to "have a loose arm throughout the throw" as you said. In my opinion the goal is to have the arm as loose as possible. The tension will come either way because your arm is physically connected to the rest of your body. I actually already did a video on the bracing leg called "How to throw with the hips". Also I don't think it is possible to say that the brace leg is "more important" than hip/shoulder separation for anybody because everything is connected and form has to be viewed as a combination of all the small aspects. That is just my opinion though! Thanks for your comment!
This guy took me from throw 300ft golf line to 385 to 400 in two weeks it’s crazy how quick you can do some of these tips for quick improvement
Like in person or just through his vids?
messages like this one make me so happy man!!!! Keep it up!
@@LeonSonnleitnerdoes your dad play disc golf? think I played with him in Hungary in the summer.. similar name anyway, Austrian, nice guy, very big hands..!
I'd say this one video alone did the same for me as well.
Plant, then rotate. This is the way.
Yup!
This is the way.
I never write a comment on things… but brother… you just showed me what was wrong in my form after this whole year having my film watched. It was a total different feeling. Your section on what’s done wrong here is unreal pro tips
super happy to hear that!!!
The most impressive thing to me in this video is how hard Leon hard to work to try and emulate bad form elements, to show people what not to do. This is a problem most people want to have.
haha thank you!
@@LeonSonnleitner no problem! Been enjoying all your videos. Great tutorials. 🙂
Maybe the best discgolf content Creator out there
thank you so much for the kind words!
The hip and shoulder break down was excellent. I would bet a lot of players have them going together and not even realize it
thanks! Definitely a slept on part of form in my opinion.
i am one of those who lead with arm! cant wait to try this !!
Literally just did a dry swing doing this in the house and I've never felt my core so engaged in the throwing motion. Can't wait to try this in a field! Thanks for all the videos!
Great to hear! Thanks for watching!
Leon, You use your off arm so well without even thinking about it or talking about. Many levels of players can not get their off arm to look as effortless as you make it seem. If you put your off arm in a bad position you would not be able to do anything in this video and maybe injury yourself. please please make a video about how you use your off arm because you don't even know how good it is because you never talk about it or might not even think about it because it is so natural to you lol good series
100% this
thanks a lot! I will do a video about the off arm. As you said to me that came almost 100% natural so I will have to think about everything surrounding the off arm and then make the video!!
@@LeonSonnleitner You're the best. The off arm is something that I really struggle with. You see at 9:51 you drive you off arm down right before the disc which gives you that shoulder rotation. If you bend you off arm, leave it out more or put you off arm somewhere else you'll see how bad your throws are or how much power you'll lose. Seeing you put you off arm in different positions would be interesting.
Another great lesson Leon for all of us that are always trying to throw more effectively. The twist tension buildup(loading the core) between the shoulders and hips, and only until that brace foot is down, begin the shoulder and hips turn through. It all happens so fast but like in any sport, only repetitive practice for this #1 priority drill throw sequence. Again, keeping the throwing arm LOOSE should never be forgotten to create that sling shot release. They always say to beginners, and even struggling players: "Don't step and throw at the same time!". The release point is also important, which I like to see at 10 o'clock. That would be a good tip lesson for a future video. We all appreciate you doing these lessons in your native Austria in the late fall/early winter weather. Keep stressing that the only way to achieve that good form goal after seeing oneself on video is to practice, Practice, PRACTICE!. When you throw without having to think about all the must do's while throwing a disc, your throws will become CONSISTANTLY identical.....and that is all professional disc golfers do. Happy Holidays Leon! and all of us can't wait on what you'll share with us next!🙂Sincerely, Bill M., PDGA #7378 & lifelong promoter of the game we love!😃
Couldnt have said it better myself, great to hear somebody who has a Lot of experience agree! Wishing you nothing but the best!
Best disc golf form coach on UA-cam and it's not close.
super happy to hear that!
Really helpful. I was having trouble figuring out where my hips should be during reach back. Your explanation and the video replay make it easy to understand what I need to do. Thanks very much!
happy to help!
thank you for uploading these vids, very helpful series!
No worries, thanks for watching!
Holy shit. I've been playing pretty regularly for seven years. Max distance is the weakest part of my game by a good margin (I'm just under 2m tall with long limbs and halfway athletic, so it shouldn't be). Thank you for finally making me realize what's been holding me back. I've been rotating my hips back during the reach back along with my shoulders for forever, without realizing it! 🤯🤯🤯 It's proving to be a hard habit to break. It's a subtle-looking form change to the naked eye, but makes a lot of difference in generating snap/explosiveness. Everyone needs to see this video!
Happy I could help! Thanks for the super Kind words 🙏
Leon you rock, can't wait to try it out when the weather turns a bit better. Thanks man
Thanks a Lot! May the weather gods be with you asap!
Thanks for your commitment, skill and energy. I like that you haven’t looked at too much form stuff on the Tube. It means you bring your own style. Keeping it real. Ta
Glad I can help! Staying in my own lane and hoping for the best 🤝 thanks for watching!
Your content has really helped me progress in my disc golf journey that I started earlier this year. Thanks!
Super happy to hear that! Thank you for watching and supporting!
Amazing stuff Sensei! EASILY the best disc golf coach! like 10 mins of your videos have me effortlessly throwing another 60-90 feet than I was after playing 2 rounds, and with the big muscles of the body doing the work rather than my labrum feeling like it's tearing.
I've been struggling for 2 years watching all these videos that are like "Then be in this position then be in this position then put your leg at this angle and your arm at this angle" bla bla bla.... which is all worthless, because you can't calculate 300 things when you're throwing, you just need to understand how to feel what generates the power and then practice to hone it.
Thanks so much! Super happy to hear about your quick improvement. I definitely agree with you, having too many thoughts will almost always lead to thinking too much during the Swing!
I'd love to see you talk about spin on the disc and how it's created. There is almost nothing available on UA-cam about it. I have a Tech Disc now, and I struggle with getting enough spin on full backhand throws. I'm typically under 900 RPMs.
Will do that for Sure!
@@LeonSonnleitner thank you!!
WOW! great info. This, along with your other videos, have greatly improved my form.
thanks! Supper happy to hear that!
Such great content Leon! Super simple to understand, thanks so much! Would love to see you do this with your putting form in future videos.
Thanks for the Kind words! Will most likely do a Putting Video this Winter!
Your content is very helpful! Thank you for the time and effort you put into these videos.
thanks so much, thanks for watching!
I have watched a ton of form videos, some have been very helpful, but these are really the best for connecting the dots😃
thanks so much!
I wanted to come back to comment this, thank you so much for making these videos. After watching this video everything finally clicked for my form, had the chance to implement it today and got my first ace as well.
Very Happy to hear that! Thanks for watching and congrats on the First Ace!
You have such a good way of demonstrating and explaining these concepts.
Thanks so much!
Thank you for this lesson. I just did a "dry run" in my house. What a difference. Had no idea I was not creating any tension because my hips were with my shoulders pointing back. I'm in my early 50s, just over a year into DG. Forehand everything, but now have tendonitis in my throwing arm, so backhand it is! I'm throwing further, and cannot wait to try this on a course ASAP.
nice! Sometimes a little injury can help in the long run, I've had the same :-) wishing you a quick recovery!
Talk about this in a couple of my videos. Thankful to find you saying the same thing! That tension is very important! But really tough to achieve...
Yessir!
@LeonSonnleitner I must thank You a lot. Now starting my 5th season in disc golf, and till this video I still couldnt understand that one thing I am doing wrong (stuck at 120m)
Tension -> plant foot -> rotate 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
nice to hear, thanks a lot for the support!
I used to turn hips back too much and then I corrected and starting rotating hips early. Never found the ideal timing so far. I think this video will help me a lot! Thank you 😊
Thanks for watching!
explained so well! cant wait to try it!!!
Thanks a Lot!
I have actually been working these things out on my own this year in my first year of playing. But the hips against my shoulders was the missing piece. Can't wait for this snow to go away to get out the field for some work on this. Thank you so much for these videos. BEST CONTENT BY FAR!
thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it!
This channel is GOLD✨
Happy to hear that!
Great job on the video, well thought out and well executed... making it very easy to replicate. Great form too! Throw Long and Prosper!! OCHC!
Thanks so much for the great Feedback! Means a Lot to me 🙏
Man. I never comment and have never had that aha moment. Thank you for making it finally click. One day in the field and i added 30-50 effortless feet to my throws hitting lines easily. I just need to stay consistent and build up the muscle memory.
Great to hear!!! Exactly, consitency and patience are Always the Key 🤝thanks for watching!
Another fantastic video - I've been playing for around 8 years now, and have quite a bit of bad muscle memory (which is hard to overcome ) that prevents me from getting effortless 400+ ft power. This video, the hip , and off arm videos are enormously helpful / key form mistakes. I think I realized why people suffer in the mistake portion - if you look back at your disc during the throw, it seems like your hips are likely going to open and be in alignment with your open shoulders. In contrast, if you keep your eye on the target (over your right shoulder), i don't think your hips will open as easy. Those open hips in the reach back, OR opening during the pull, before the plant foot hits the ground are absolute power killers. Amazing to think through that. I have one question or video suggestion and that is in the actual pull of the disc. I think this varries by pro, but I was watching Anthony Barela warm up at a tour event.... He would reach back, then bring the disc to his chest, and then rotate through.... vs simply pulling in a straight line, where I think you miss the mechanical advantage of the arm/elbow loading the disc into the power pocket and then it exploding out from your hip and shoulders opening. Are you actively thinking about setting the disc to your chest with your hand, or do you just pull through. Last time I played it felt VERY weird to set the disc at my chest, but I got noticably more power without even feeling like I was throwing hard...doing that. You're a great instructor, thank you!
I personally never think about "pulling" at all. My guess is AB doesn't do that either and was Just doing some Warmup Drill or something that works for him. Either way, If something Works Well for you, keep doing it! Thanks for watching
Easy to understand, hard to do.
the beauty of technique!
You're really good at this. Hope you do some videos on forehand in the future and thanks for the tips so far!
Thanks so much! Will probably do a forehand Video sometime Soon!
Awesome videos Leon, keep it up ✌
thanks!
thank you, great video. will try out.
I think i started rotating before planting, will work on this now
thanks for watching!
Can’t stress enough how thankful I am for your help. My accuracy the past few rounds has been the best it ever has been my distance is effortless. My right glute is also sore, while my shoulder feels nothing. Thanks man. Any thoughts on the plant foot landing toe/heel versus planting on the whole inside of the foot and “rolling” the weight over the whole foot during the brace? When I go toe/heel I always open my hips early, and I think that’s very common with new players
Thanks a lot, happy to hear that!
I honestly have never thought about heel/toe stuff actively. I think the reason you might open up early when planting on your toes is that you might turn your hips too far back because of it, but it is impossible to tell without looking at it unfortunately.
Thanks for watching!
@@LeonSonnleitner if you ever accept online students, I’ll be one of the first to sign up
@@andrewjung6987 i actually do!
@@LeonSonnleitner please let me know how to go about signing up with you
Thank you for
Your time, great info🙌
Thanks for watching and supporting!
Eagle also has some great form.. ppl think he throws hard but if you ask him its pretty effortless!
100% true!
Loving this content ❤
happy to hear that :-)
Perfectly said great explanation
Happy to hear you enjoyed it!
Another great video, thank you
thanks a lot and thank you for watching!
Great video man.
thank you, thanks for watching!
This is such a great way to explain the hips and shoulders that I've never heard and I watch a lot of form videos.
happy to hear that!
Awesome video man
thank you so much!
very good video!
Thanks a Lot!
Great video!! Keep it up!! Quick question about the planting foot. Do you consciously think about getting on the heel and rotating or is it more of a natural thing?
thanks so much! It's a natural thing and I believe it is a byproduct of what happens before and should not be forced by itself.
Good stuff!
thank you!
These exercises have really driven home the need for flexibility in the core in this sport
100% Mobility in the Core is so important
Thank you so much!
thanks for watching!
👍🏻
Should the head in the power pocket be perpendicular to the target and in the same "angle" as the hips?
You, Paul McBeth and Simon Lizotte seem to do so. Drew Gibson is maybe looking a bit more backwards, but in the power pocket he aligns his head with the hips.
For me, thinking about the head position helped me improve. Before I was looking backwards in the same angle as my shoulders. Drew talks about a fist of distance between the sholder and the head.
Thank you for your videos!
good question that would take a loooong time to answer. I definitely think opening up the head too far back (as you said) is not ideal. I might do a video about this and fully explain my opinion on that. Generally, I think Paul and Barela are my favorites when I think about head movement but there are many pros who do this well.
Thanks for watching!
I love these videos. One question. Are there any drills you use to help solidify this into your muscle memories?
Thanks so much!
There definitely are drills for that! One thing I used to do into the net when I was younger was to just stand on my left foot and from that only do the last step. That really makes you learn the feeling of "loading up" in my opinion!
@@LeonSonnleitnercan you do a video of this? Not sure I can picture what to do sadly😅
Hey man,
I don't know If you'r on Reddit but I have to make sure you see this little content about you that i found there:
"His hip movement video is the next best thing after Shakira!"
😆😆
Haha that is great 😂 hips don't lie 🤝
Love these videos. I'd love to hear more about how you ensure that your throwing shoulder doesn't collapse across your chest and cause rounding when you are starting with the hips and keeping the arm loose. I'm thinking there must be something with timing, but not sure what motion you are using to get into the pocket so cleanly with a lag motion. It would seem that you need to maintain some shoulder/arm integrity as you rotate your upper body in order to get the disc in the right position. Your timing between the offarm, front foot down and the reachback is impeccable.
"It would seem that you need to maintain some shoulder/arm integrity as you rotate your upper body in order to get the disc in the right position"
Yes. Took me a long time (too long) to realize this, and that being 'as loose as you can' was over-doing it in my case. I was struggling with my bicep against my chest and disc bouncing around behind me in an overzealous effort to be 'super loose' and lag.
Look at the slow motion shot at 10:08 and specifically the right arm position at 10:12. This is as smooth a shot as you will ever see. And yet obviously Leon's arm and shoulder could be way more loose than shown here, if he took 'be as loose as possible' too literally. The arm is horizontal, parallel to the ground, and the shoulder rigid enough that the elbow is kept level with or slightly above the wrist. The arm then extends back, and then at 10:15 with the disc in the 'pp' position the upper arm is more or less in exactly the position that it was at 10:12, while the forearm is pointing at the camera (rather than out to 90 degrees as it was at 10:12). From here the shoulders turn and the disc is pulled forward on a line, slinging out from a loose forearm and released toward the target.
Obviously I am keen to hear Leon's analysis, but what I take from this and other footage is that the upper arm and shoulder have to have some rigidity; they are responsible for keeping themselves from collapsing and thus eliminating the whipping mechanism that transfers leg and hip power into the disc. Meanwhile it's the lower arm and wrist that are really loose as can be, and are allowed to fling or punch out going into the hit.
Thank you Leon for another excellent video. Showing these shots from directly behind is something I have wished was done more often; it is extremely illustrative of the simple components of good mechanics.
@@overfiend75 That was well said. I'm thinking you are correct about the lower arm and wrist being loosy goosy and the upper arm sorta fixed. Now to figure out how to do it :D
@@dwmichaels No kidding. Struggle's real.
For "sorta fixed," correct. Think about how some coaches preach rigorously keeping the upper arm somewhere around 90 degrees to the chest (pros violate this, but it's a good starting point IMO). This obviously cannot be maintained if the shoulder's only function is to be a 'noodle' attaching the arm to the torso.
Similarly: coaches teach to keep the elbow up (sigh), lead with the elbow, etc. Again, these things are not possible if the shoulder isn't supporting the elbow and keeping it aloft.
The upper arm has to be stable-but-loose-enough that when the body's momentum comes up against the brace, the arm swings the disc forward, rather than simply letting it bash into the left side of the body.
Smooth, but not sloppy.
first of all, thanks for your comment and your kind words! In my opinion you can and should stay loose in the arm. That only works if your runup is right though. Otherwise your arm will always "collapse" into your body. I did a video called "HOW TO FIX YOUR RUNUP" where I talk about exactly that.
@@LeonSonnleitner I watched that. That really helped me with a stride that was likely too long and foot placement that was likely too far apart. That is where I developed the challenge of getting the disc into the pocket. I either need to use my upper arm to pull the disc into the pocket area at some point or when I throw, my arm is too far on the left side of my body. I expect it's some intentional movement at some particular time. My challenge is I'm old and learning these athletic movements, so things which might be natural to folks who learned when they were young, are not natural to me :)
Keep these up though. The more folks like you talk through the form, the more folk like me pick up. Small nuances that can make a big difference.
yea boi
Please please pretty please mention anterior pelvic tilt. It steals a *shitton* of distance and people end up hurting knees and lower backs because of it. You don't have it, so bracing and loading correctly is easy for you, but 40+ guys who sit in an office most days will have it pretty much without exception.
You are definitely right. The problem is that I don't know what throwing feels like for anyone but me so I wouldn't feel comfortable telling everybody with an anterior pelvic tilt on how to throw with their physical situations. The good news is that pelvic tilts are fixable with physical work though!
Good stuff 🫡
thank you!
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the "hit" portion of the swing. I've heard backhand teachers saying that you must consciously accelerate the arm after the power pocket in order to create the speed at the "hit." Do you use this technique or are you simply keeping your arm loose and letting the hips do the work?
How do you imagine the disc is accelerated, if not by the arm? It doesnt matter if its concious or not. You need to accelerate the arm. You can try out on your own what happens, if you let the arms just hang down totally loose and then swivel around the hips. The disc will go 5 feet.
I actually did a video called "HOW TO FIX YOUR THROWING ARM" where I explain my stance on this exact topic! The quick answer is I keep my arm loose, once the rotation starts there will be some (automatic!) tension forming in the right places anyways!
@@LeonSonnleitner Much appreciated, I will check out that video!
@@LeonSonnleitner even if it feels automatic, from a bio-physical standpoint this is wrong. It probably feels automatic, because you accelerate the arm subconciously. Ps thanks for the hip video. Its very intuitively made and helpful.
His other video: ua-cam.com/video/QCYroKdE2KQ/v-deo.html
In older form videos they warned of not separating the hips from shoulders to avoid back injuries. I wonder how warranted that is/was. I would say do be careful to anyone trying this to not rotate hard or fast at the lower spine.
I think that was based off the old golf version of the X-factor that focused on the separation largely occurring the downswing or forward swing and people were getting injured, vs the newer X-factor version where the separation is largely occurring the backswing which takes a lot of the stress off the lumbar spine. It's not the separation that is the issue, but the timing of it. My "Inside Swing Drill" talks about x-factor and gets you fully wound up in the backswing and any move you make with the lower body starts to unwind everything together in ground up sequence as it should.
ua-cam.com/video/FWasFdvnGio/v-deo.htmlm5s
great question! Hip/shoulder separation has been a big thing in sports biomechanics in many many sports for a long time actually. For some reason disc golf seems to lag a bit behind regarding general rules of biomechanics which is clearly visible on UA-cam because there are a bunch of "form coaches" who absolutely disregard the basics of biomechanics. Like any other athletic movement, the quality and the quantity matter. In my experience physical problems almost never occur because of big hip/shoulder separation. With that being said, the dose makes the poison in every sport!
Holy dang. I’m the bad form guy. I rotate while trying to get my plant foot to the ground.
Your videos are SO good and your form is fantastic. However, when you turn away from the target on a reach back, what you call "open", I call "closed".
Am I wrong about this?
thanks a lot!
You are definitely not wrong. We are both right. I know that I use the terminology the opposite way of some people but that is just because it makes more sense to me when I think about it. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your way of thinking though!
if you watch your example frame by frame, it looks like the arm goes 1st and then the hips. or at least they start at the same time but the arm moves faster..
My arm is being pulled through by the hips! Obviously that means that they will (almost) start moving at the same time, but that is not what hip/shoulder separation is about. It is about that tiny difference in timing and the hips starting the movement.
@@LeonSonnleitner i see what you are saying, its kinda like, if you hunch your back and pop your hands down and extend one hand down as far as you can, as soon as you try to move the other hand down, it bring the 1st one UP. you coil against your hips as much as possible. and as soon are you turn your hips it triggers the arm to start.
The "X-Factor" ... been taught in golf for decades.
Yup, biomechanic rules apply everywhere!
Went from 350 to 285.
Oof
Sometimes you gotta take a step back to take two steps forward
Can I be your camera man?
Leon,
Please explain what your off-arm and driving arm are doing too. The off-arm should be driving down while the driving arm is bending forward, before the hip release, which I recall you mentioning before, and many others such as Overthrow and DGSpinDoctor mention. You can’t have a loose arm, as it would collapse under, which significantly reduces any leverage of the disc. DGSpinDoctor even mentions this directly in comment to your form from another viewer - it’s not possible to have a loose arm throughout the throw.
This is the least impactful video of your past videos. I’d like to see you explain more about the brace leg, and pushing with brace and/or back leg (even though you disagree with back leg pressure), which is far more important than hip/shoulder separation for more intermediate/advanced viewers who already know there’s no forced shoulder rotation, as it’s a function of brace/brace pressure.
I actually already did a video on the throwing arm. I have never said anything about the off arm going anywhere. You can have a loose arm as the tension will naturally form in the right places once the rotation starts. The goal is not to "have a loose arm throughout the throw" as you said. In my opinion the goal is to have the arm as loose as possible. The tension will come either way because your arm is physically connected to the rest of your body.
I actually already did a video on the bracing leg called "How to throw with the hips". Also I don't think it is possible to say that the brace leg is "more important" than hip/shoulder separation for anybody because everything is connected and form has to be viewed as a combination of all the small aspects. That is just my opinion though!
Thanks for your comment!