Do you have information regarding a social 4 (wife) and a social eight (husband) in relationship? We have been married for 47 years. I think the long suffering in both of us may be the reason we are still married.
Yep. I'm now a Mental Health First Aider and unofficial counsellor to family, friends and team at work. And I just "have to" take on the burden of achieving success, for my self worth, my team's wellbeing and to support my family. Dauntless on the outside, suffering anxiety on the inside, but learning to share my experience to help feel the feels and normalise the challenges of mental health. Thanks Tom ❤️❤️❤️
The SP made me laugh and cry. After 7 years together i told my partner 'if i was to release all my pain and show the world the real me, i would no longer be recognizable as a human'.
The SP made me cry as well. I have values and beliefs that cost me the loss of acceptance from family members and friends who are on different political sides with materialistic priorities and humorous topics of conversation. Just in general, being more conservative and traditional in such a progressive generation is hard. (Gen Z)
What i really enjoy about you is that, you can say the harsher things, and for once in my life, knowing you actually say it with care and caution, makes me not get offended. Personally that is THEE perfect person to narrate and make such videos. I’ve seen other youtubers who tell the harsher truths with this sort of disdain or ‘get over it’ vibe, you definitely said your harsher truths about 4’s with absolute sensitivity and willingness to be corrected or given more info. What can i say, i repeat, you are the most perfect person, to tell others who it is.
I am a self persevere 4. My tears outflow when I finally hear someone in the world try to make an understanding speech of myself, my sacrifice to the good of other people by suppressing my pain. Thank you for identifying the on-going hard work on ”suffer in silence”. Truly appreciate your compassion heart to us.
When you said "You are a person of worth and value and you don't have to do a thing for us to know that." it literally brought me to tears. Affirmation means so much to me as a 4, so thank you, for seeing us and loving us for who we are. I know we can be very difficult people but I think we have the biggest hearts in all the enneagram.
As someone who definitely has a strong tendency to be a sexual four, I was initially thrown by the characterization that we are competitive because I think of myself as someone who doesn't like and actively avoids competition... but now I'm realizing that's probably because I am so sensitive to any competition or comparison I allow myself to engage in. For example, for the most part (esp. in high school) this angry competitiveness/anger against an "unjust" system really comes/came out in philosophical debates. Very interesting.
I was having a REALLY hard time figuring out if I was a 9 or a 4, because I'm not at all internally detached the way nines are. I think being a self-preservation 4 explains a LOT of my 9 traits.
HI I LOVE YOU. Thank you. This is EXACTLY why I'm here, my friend! I am called sunny or sunshiney regularly and feel that most people don't understand the emotional depth and difficulty/turmoil going on inside me - they would probably describe me as nice, kind, friendly an very caring. I have wondered a lot if I am a social nine, because I am quite warm and and want to gently and quietly lead others without drawing attention to myself . . . and so I have been absolutely tirelessly working to understand which type is overall and truly my best fit. I realllllyyy was struggling with that same point you mentioned about the 9 type, which is the tendency to be detached from what's going on inside. On the contrary, I am deeply, overly, and tumultuously (??) attuned to it. In fact, I'd LIKE to be able to detach from my anxiety and sadness and stress, and sometimes even try to distract myself by learning ABOUT myself in an attempt to reconcile and no longer feel lost and confused about my worthiness and ability, but alas . . . anxiety seems, for me, to be heightened by attempts to stifle or not feel it. I am keenly aware. Anyways, thank you so much for commenting; I know it wasn't for me, haha, but it's tremendously reassuring to have someone express the same confusion as myself! I now know I'm not crazy, and that I'm cool enough to be a four AND sunshiney;) ( I already knew that, but . . . maybe not).
Wow! I can't believe it: I had this experience as well. I thought I was a Nine, but I am not -- I am a self-preservation Four. It was when I started spending time with another person who identifies as a Nine and I began to understand that his issues are not my issues. My husband (a One) walked in when Dr. LaHue was talking about gut types, and he mentioned the Nine and said the Nine holds everything in, or something to that effect, and my husband said, that's not you! You don't hold anything in! And I was laughing so hard, I was like, I know, I know -- what I am feeling, I will eventually need to express to him or someone else I am close to. And that is the Four, my friends. We can't hold in our feelings. If we do, we will literally burst. Even self-pres Fours!
"suffering in silence". Wow, I didn't know my subtype before this, but this Self-Preservation description is reeeally hitting me. It's not that I suppress my feelings from myself -- I sob in my car regularly -- but I'm constantly hypervigilantly looking out my window, worried someone's noticing and upset or concerned. Worried I'm "alienating people", as you said. Also I literally joined the Peace Corps lol, and I love "challenging myself" to see how much I can "handle", taking myself on melancholy lonely solo adventures around the world to really "be in my feelings and prove I can do hard things". And oh my god, I relate SO MUCH to Elsa in Frozen. My SP 4-ness makes me want to find a castle far far away, like she did, so I don't burden anyone with myself, and I have peace and quiet to just feel my feelings in silence. Damn.
Social 4: i think they also have a deep need to be completely honest and authentic with themselves and the world- which is why they show up without hiding the negative emotions. I’m a self preserving 4 who has struggled to feel like I fit into the 4 paradigm- and you totally spoke to myself.
I have social 4 characteristics in my tritype. The characteristics that describe the social 4 have been prominent in me ever since I was 13 (in my late 20s now). Hearing it all said back to me is incredibly accurate. Before I was at that age, I felt like a normal kid, but I had a dysfunctional family due to parents that didn't get along with each other and stressed each other out which in turn indirectly took their frustrations out on me and caused myself to have multiple breakdowns in secret. Apparently I was a very sensitive kid, so every time something happened (getting yelled at harshly, being made to feel inferior/incompetent, having my words fall on deaf ears/neglected, etc.) I couldn't help but cry of course. Add to that a lot of pressure to stay on top of school with perfect grades -> my self-esteem crumbled more and more every day. The most triggering moment was when my step-dad observed my introverted, quiet, and reserved nature (as I'm actually a sexual 5) to mean that there was something wrong with me, that I was in depression because I spent time in my room a lot. When he told me that, I felt confused and it had me questioning my own mental state indefinitely since. I think from that moment on, along with the repeated emotional breakdowns, I felt that there was something wrong with me. I asked myself questions like "Why can't I just not cry like other people? Why do I feel like this? I can perfectly understand everything that happens with my logical thinking, but the tears won't stop and I can't get rid of these feelings that I will never be good enough as a human being. I'm not strong like everyone else and can't seem to suck it up." Of course, these thoughts were always kept hidden from everyone I knew due to the feeling of shame. I hardly ever saw anyone close to me crying in the open, so I thought that it was shameful to display these strong negative emotions. Anyway, these thoughts and feelings weighed too heavily on me so eventually I did fall into depression. I just wish that my step-dad, as a non-professional, hadn't tried to diagnose or even suggest to me the idea of depression as a young kid that was just starting to go through puberty hormones and hadn't been exposed to enough experience to conclude anything for myself at that age. If that hadn't happened, I think I would have had more hope in me in overcoming the bad times and not letting them stew in my mind like there is something inherently wrong with me that I couldn't change and make better (I subconsciously believed that me keeping to myself a lot as an introverted person meant that I was permanently in a bad mental space, not so much because of other things that were actually happening to me). As a sexual 5, I could only trust one person (that I would search for) at a time to be my true self around, but with the social 4 characteristics, it would sometimes be hard for me to hold back the suffering I feel when talking to that person. I try not to overwhelm these people with my negative emotions because they are/were important to me. I'm currently with a self-pres 2 right now who is incredibly supportive and non-judgmental, who also has a good, level head on him as well as goes beyond to meet my needs. I'm very grateful to him for never making me feel bad about myself and frequently reminding me of the good qualities that I possess which helps me feel more balanced and functional.
To help 4 people out there stuck in the 'sexual' subtype, I'd say that it could be helpful to project your anger not onto people, but onto the root causes of behaviors that hurt you, for this is completely valid to feel hurt by some behaviors. So, by using the investigating part of your intelligence (we are curious and creative enough to do that) I'm sure this projected intention can make some of the most efficient activists
Jesus christ the sexual four is spot on for me. I'm insanely competitive and feel like sometimes I want to destroy everyone in my path. The underlying narrative is "they'll understand or recognize me when I'm on the top". Which also means that I have to prove my worth to anyone who has rejected me and have to show through my accomplishments. Damn..
I might have just cried so hard when you said, "thank you for your sacrifice." I don't think anyone could ever know.... I'm definitely a self-preservation 4. I have never had someone understand me in the way you have described. It's hard shit being this type!!
@@elycetyler1942 We don't. It's not a bad quality. Just balance it out and challenge yourself out of that comfort zone in some way or another. Get a little selfish and try to enjoy it even if you start to feel a little guilty.
I noticed that you gave examples of how people can't handle certain aspects of both the sexual and the social 4s, but you didn't give an example for something people can't stand about the self preservation 4s. As I watch your video (which is very good), and read about the subtypes of 4s in various articles, I see the pattern of the self-preservation 4s getting the "most healthy" treatment of the three sub types, although it's not usually explicitly stated. As a self-preservation 4w5, I find that most of my issues are internal because I keep things in. Many difficulties arise because of this, but from my experience because of the internal side of it all, I get so self-focused that I end up not being like a real human, like my true self. Something I've recently learned and am beginning to practice is the letting-off of those burdens that come with long-suffering. It is not my purpose to shoulder those things, and when I let go and rest, I find that I become more at ease and am living as the person I know I truly am. There's more to this that I'm discovering, but I'll stop here.
Yeah, I'm also a self-preservation 4 and while I do a really good job of managing friendships and family relationships, I've gotten to a point in my partnership where my suppressing of emotion and long suffering turned into some serious resentment and I'm having to do a lot of work right now to be real and show up honestly. Like, it's a little hard realizing how much of this stuff I've been carrying around is unnecessary and in my head. It's not everything, of course, but I'm not even giving my partner the chance to support me in ways that I want support because I'm so quick to squash those feelings. I'm sure it's infuriating for her but I'm slowly getting better at it. but to your point, I think that there isn't a "most healthy" subtype, it's of course where you're at in your personal growth. I think the self-pres just keeps our problems to ourselves so we don't make waves as often.
I am a 4w5, new to this, and you have helped me so much with your perspective. If you haven't I'd recommend you watch the music video to Katy Perry's "Wide Awake". Might not resonate with you but I lived through the hospitalization of it all. As to what people can't handle about us? We usually don't let them see any of it. So if there's anything they can't handle about us, it's probably the withholding. The faking things. The inauthenticity, which flies directly in the face of our nature. We are meant to be real. That means stormy emotions and all. I didn't find someone who accepted that about me until I started to accept it in myself. Hope this helps.
Matthew 11:28-30 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Beatrice Chestnut's treatment of the social 4 is remarkably one-sided and negative. Susan Rhodes (possibly my fave Enneagram author) gives a much more balanced perspective on them.
Conscious Monster -- I agree and as I was listening and analyzing I think the self preservation 4 (me) ends up experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance because in the act of self preservation and turning inward and tamping down the pain to become "long suffering" it feeds into a feeling of inauthenticity.
I love how fluid the enneagram is. As a child, teen, and young adult, I was primarily a self preservation 4. Now, as a tired 30-year-old whose worldview has changed massively since my youth, I have become primarily a social 4. But as I look back, I see brief phases of sexual 4 peppered here and there throughout my life.
@hatzistu8180 I definitely think you can. I think he said in the video that all 4's have these types, but lean more one way than another. I think you go through phases of growth that can affect things. When I was in high school and middle school I was definitely a sexual 4. My envy and insecurity was so strong, and I really projected that. I was a minefield for my family. I wanted to be more of the self preserving because I felt like repressing negative emotions (that I thought were caused by being "too sensitive" after enough time of people telling me I was "too sensitive") was more loving and forgiving. Like a SP I didn't communicate my emotions but like a sexual 4 I struggled with envy so much that I projected onto other people. Now I'm in my late 20's and I've grown out of some of that, and I might lean more towards social because of my life experiences. I can recognize all of these in myself. If it helps, think of Meyers Briggs. I am ISFP but people are hardly ever 100% of one letter. You might be like 80% self preserving and like 5% social and 15% sexual. We're all too complicated to be broken down that simply.
This is so accurate ! "SP 4s can be mistaken for 3 for their drive or for 7 because they look joyful", I had never heard that from anyone else, and it is so true ! Thank you ! Your tons of notes are really useful (I also like the way you make fun of yourself with them. A sunny 4 could have definitely done that).
I'm a social 4 too when I can't suppress no more and than I isolate and come back as a self-preservation 4. I also feel like if no one noticed me suppressing and like you said need attention or validation I will express my sensitivity.
The stack theory makes so much sense with this!That you have a more dominant instinct, and a secondary instinct you make use of, and a third that's more suppressed. So for this it would prob be 1. Self Pres 2. Social 3. Sexual
Preach! I am much more of a self preservation 4, but sometimes I break and become a social 4. I am a very emotional person and I stuff so much down that sometimes it comes out like a volcano because it has to get out sooner or later. However, when I get overly emotional in front of people I am immediately embarrassed and apologize, and try to hide away.
for any of us with ignored childhood trauma, the shame of the pain is lifelong partly because we are always reminded our suffering doesn’t matter - if you don’t matter when you suffer, you don’t matter. Probably that is triggered thinking but for me I’ve never found it to be untrue.
Only recently getting into the more detailed aspects of the Enneagram. Your videos have helped more than any other resource. I seem to fit into the self-preservation 4. I was a bit surprised when you said “don’t tell them they can’t do something because that will motivate them to do it.” My mother once told me that I was gaining weight, and couldn’t run a 10 minute mile anymore. Consequently, I immediately got up and ran a 5k much faster than my body could handle, and collapsed from hypoglycemia shortly thereafter. Still one of my proudest moments.
"Thank you for your sacrifice. I see you" ... the tears I was suppressing through the whole SP description couldn't be held back with that one. So much gratitude for this and the work you're doing! Thank you!!! Also I cried so much during Frozen and even more Frozen 2 haha! I knew Elsa had to be a 4! The lyrics from Show Yourself ..."YOU are the one you've been waiting for all your life." If I ever need to cry and pull back into my own emotions ... that song does it, lol!
Wow! Thank you so much for this explanation!!! I’m a self-preservation 4 that behaves a lot like 1 and 7. For the longest time I wasn’t sure if I were a real 4. This fits perfectly. The stoic appearance in situation of crisis, endurance for pain, not dwelling on negatives, trying to keep upbeat, distracting self with not wanting to burden others with my own pain! Having too much empathy and taking responsibility! Being attuned to others emotions and the environment. Alleviating pain of others. Fighting for other people. Earning admiration is a big theme too! Suffering in silence! I’m speechless.
I think I might be a social 4. However, a lot of the things you describe sounds kind of like how an unhealthy social 4 would act. I have definitely done those things in the past, but I'm different when I have a healthy mindset. I'm not afraid of taking action and responsibility in my life, and I am not too fond of showing everyone my emotions. However, in my few intimate relationships I share my feelings more.
Yeah the SO description seemed mostly negative and describing it in an unhealthy state. I might have added something about being hyper aware of group dynamics and what role each person plays in a group, as a SO4 i am always thinking about group dynamics and how i fit into the group, and not necessarily in a negative way, often it's just analyzing the group to see what each person contributes to it and determining the best way for me to fit in and feel included while still maintaining individuality and contributing something of my own. I also am not super expressive of my emotions unless i am comfortable with that person, tbh this video has me thinking i might be a SP 4 because I make an effort not to push my emotions onto others but at the same time i very much relate to the SO description so I'm not sure.
Since I have a hard time figuring out if I’m a 4 or a 9, I know that I really resonate with the self preservation 4. Enduring. And enduring for the world. This definitely lets me know that I’m a four.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I was stuck between thinking I was either a 5 or a 9 for awhile. The self preservation hits home hard. We are 4w5s, enigmatic and perplexing.
When you compared Elsa to the self preservation four I knew for sure that was me 😂 but honestly- I kept going between a four and a nine, feeling mostly like a four, except for that I have this great passion for helping people, and the psychology of the mind is fascinating to me. My husband often comments on how I listen to “murder shows” (missing persons podcasts mostly) and how it confuses him so much because I’m such a happy, goofy, soft person. I couldn’t explain it to him. But when you mentioned that need to focus on a pain that’s not your own, and to serve others in order to take away that pain- that explains so much about my personality. Also- when you mentioned comparison and envy with a four. I didn’t realize that wasn’t something everyone did. I had to pause the video to ask my husband (I believe an 8) if he experiences that. I honestly thought everyone was constantly comparing themselves in their heads. Envy and jealousy were the biggest things I have had to work on in my life. I have a pretty good handle on it all now. But I can see where that possibly comes from leaning into caring for others. As an empath, this has always been a big part of my life. As a new mother, I have been happier than ever before. Possibly because she brings me worth. She’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen, and I’m her favorite person in the world. It’s almost intoxicating knowing I am so loved. Anyways- you just gained a new subscriber. Wonderful content. Wonderful heart. I felt like you were speaking directly to me.
@Forestfairy - I think we're the same person. Lol. Thanks for sharing your comment! I feel like being a mother and raising a child with the love I never felt would give me the worth I'm looking for, but sadly, I have PCOS and do not know if I'll ever be able to have children naturally. I do, however, have an amazing and very close bond with my best friend's two children. They fill a void I've long felt AND I get to give them back when I'm ready to have my peace again. ♥️
Wowowowowow!!! This is very similar to me in a way! Thank you for sharing ; it is so exciting and affirming to be hearing about people with similar lived experience. :') My heart kind of cries tears of joy at it. I too LOVE studying psychology and understanding what goes wrong for/within people for the things to happen that do; there's a part of me that's very comfortable with the darkness and ok with acknowledging and accepting that it is a part of life, but I am also regularly described as sunny, friendly, and "so caring and nice!" Haha. I think I must throw the poor people I trust for a loop, but am thankful to have some really solid ones who do see and appreciate my uniqueness and weirdness. In highschool I had an undiagnosed eating disorder for quite a while, and there was so much comparison I look back on from there. I am joyously blessed to say I don't compare in a negative or competitive way now in my life, but I am still very aware of the differences between myself and others - this is innate for me; I WANT us to be different and stand out from each other, and I WANT to know where others are struggling because I feel better about myself when I'm of service to others and genuinely loving others well - if I'm helping bring healing and peace, I'm making the most of who I am, even if I feel pretty insignificant at my worst moments. I know I will make a difference and hopefully, do it with a little flair and fun. :)
I urge you to check out Katherine Fauvre's tritype info on YT here...will bring you home! Essentially, we have 3 types (one from each triad center) in descending order...so you may be a 4-9-x where x could be either a 5, 6 or 7. She also has an excellent test that absolutely pinned me as a 5-8-2 sp. Tritypes will bring clarity!
I think I'll write more later, because this video is just SO inspiring, and I have so much to say about it, but one thing I wanna say right away, as a self-preservative four: I also have always wanted my pain to be seen, especially as a child. Of course I would hide it, and show it only when I was "alone in my room", or simply away from other, but at the same time all I wanted was for someone to notice I wasn't there anymore, to come looking for me, to see my pain despite the fact that I was hiding it not to burden them. I wanted someone to see me for what I was and love me despite it, and BECAUSE of it. I think that's always been my deepest desire (while the deepest fear was that if I ever were to show someone what I had inside, all of my feeling, all of my needs, they would instantly walk away from me). Again, therapy helps.
Girl YES! I relate to this so much. Even now when I’m mad at my husband and I disappear into the other room to cry, all I really want is for him to come check on me. To see that I’m hurt but I chose to cry away from him even though I want him to validate me so badly.
YES. I love the way you described this, the wanting pain to be seen and known, and desiring to be loved through, and even for, it. That's beautiful and speaks into my heart straight. There's a deep longing for that safeness and trust, and it's so special when found. But, in my experience, it is rare to come across someone who I feel similarly enough to, and safe enough with, to share my pain as it comes. I always weep alone. Whenever I've had my darkest moments and felt my worst and darkest feelings, it's been alone. And I always come out ok afterwards. But yeah, thank you for expressing this piece of your heart. :) It matters.
Thank you so much , I truly appreciate your hard work and the amount of effort, energy , and passion you put in these videos , especially the ones about four. I relate so much to the self preservation 4 . I become expressive when the burden is too much , I find so much healing in there but still I minimize my pain and always feel guilty to make it a big deal , I compare it to pain in the world and I feel ashamed then shut down again. I test people a lot , people fail me when I do that , they are used to me being tough and strong and listening to them so whenever I let out a little of my consent inner drama I get “ what's wrong ? What's the big deal ?” , they go silent , or withdraw , or angry . I hate drama , I always keep everything to myself but even in these moments I don't get the compassion . That's when I withdraw , and feel more like I am not worthy . But it's also about choosing the right people , luckily I have one friend that I can turn in to when I am struggling , I love her so much . She helped trust people again , she helped me feel seen, valued for the first time in my life .
I relate to this...maybe I am SP 4 afterall...it got to be too much at a point and I sort of exploded and was oozing pain all the time for years. So I can relate to all the 4s.
My friends who are 4s are the best at making me feel loved no matter what my sins are. Or my thoughts and feelings. Love my 4 friends. And I hate that awkwardness that comes when I try to share my feelings with someone and they just don’t get it. Makes me feel like I’m a freak. So alone. Studying the enneagram is helping me to know I have value, but more so, PURPOSE! There is definitely a place and a NEED for 4s in this world.
Omg, 4 SO here. No wonder I relate to 6 sometimes cuz I feel like I'm testing my friendships similar to how a 6 tests their friendships to see if they are truly loyal. And I never knew that 4 SO is considered by others to sometimes look like a type 6. That explains so much. I thought maybe it was a "tritype" thing, like I thought maybe 6 is part of my tritype. EDIT: ....For anyone who is NOT a type 4, I want to clarify something: Yes I might expect or need more support than the average person, but I would never expect or ask for something that I wasn't willing to give just as much (if not MORE) of it in return back to the person. So, for example, if I expect/want/need "support" it means I will give YOU just AS MUCH support back, IF NOT MORE, if you ever need/want it. I would never ask for something that I'm not READILY willing to give back to you or others!! I would always return the favor!! because that's just how a 2-way street friendship works, IMHO. :)
I always know that I have hit upon the type that describes me when all of a sudden I get emotional. When you mentioned that self preservationists are humanitarian, they suffer in silence, and you just want to give them a hug, and to say thank you for their self sacrifice, I almost burst into tears, in fact I did tear up. So, that confirmed to me that I am definitely the self preservationist subtype of 4 (4w5 to be exact). The same thing happened when I was reading about the different types on the Enneagram Institute’s website. I was trying to figure out whether or not I was a 4. And then I read about how fours feel misunderstood, and have never felt like they fit in, and that really resonated with me. The clincher was when I read, “While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The “romantics” of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world.” Again, I almost burst into tears. That sealed the deal for me!
Thinking of the Self-Preservation 4, a character that fits the description might be Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Her sister Marianne is so demonstrative of all her emotions, but Elinor is true to the charge to keep her sorrows hidden and exclaims, “What do you know of my heart? What do you know of anything but your own suffering. For weeks, Marianne, I've had this pressing on me without being at liberty to speak of it to a single creature. It was forced on me by the very person whose prior claims ruined all my hope. I have endured her exultations again and again whilst knowing myself to be divided from Edward forever. Believe me, Marianne, had I not been bound to silence I could have provided proof enough of a broken heart, even for you.” Then Elinor goes and comforts Marianne. Finally at the end of the movie, such a fantastic scene when her emotions escape and she cannot do anything to hold them back.
Self preservative four felt so much like myself. I have always had a very happy go lucky outer persona and inside I would feel like a hurricane. I feel the best when I can connect with other people’s pain and try to help them in ways I could never help myself. You did a wonderful job of explaining self preservative type that I felt so understood even way more than I could understand myself.
I might suggest... why would a 4 want to be seen in their suffering? My thoughts are that they felt incredibly unseen in their suffering as children - and there is a sense of desperation to have that need met later in life. My experience is that they suffered tremendously as young children and had no one to be with them in that place - so it comes out of a longing for a need to be met and healed. The 4s can look to others for this need to be met and ultimately need to find it within.
I’m a sexual 4w3. The way you described the anger of this type is spot on. My anger usually manifests itself in how I feel about not being understood. I get so angry at people for not automatically getting what I mean and why I do what I do. Then once I think they’re catching on I get annoyed because I don’t want them to think they can assume I will act a certain way. So I pull away and reject them. As to say, “You didn’t know me before and you don’t get to now!” Now obviously this is when I’m not very healthy. When I’m healthy I’m calm, empathetic and open with people. We gotta remember this system is fluid
Thank you Tom, I'm a self preservation four and I really broke down when you said thank you for your sacrifice and that we're suffering in silence. I have the type four childhood wound. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. My dad very rarely made an appearance. He was an alcoholic and drug addict as was my mom. My mom was usually high and out of it. I was the caregiver for my brother and I from a young age. I never had space to be me or to be heard. I was also in foster care from 8-10 and 12-18. Very neglected growing up. Even in the foster homes; you were physically looked after, but emotionally neglected. I felt incredibly isolated. Even sexually abused due to my mom's bad judgments and carelessness. I didn't have a real friend till high school because we were constantly moving around. Finally settled in my teens in my last foster home and opened up a bit. I'm in a much better place, but I just endured because no one wanted to give me space to feel. One particular time I remember being told not to feel was when I was in foster care and having visits with my mom once a week for just an hour. I would cry when I left the visits and my foster mom told me if I kept crying after the visits they would have to stop taking me. They didn't want to deal with my emotions.
I had a similarly dysfunctional childhood. Sexual abuse by foster child, Absent father, neglectful mother, having to take care of my younger brother. Essentially raising myself. I also had to cut my mother out of my life recently for certain reasons. But i wanted to reach out to you because I thought it might be good to talk to someone, who might understand how you feel.
Self-Pres 4.. When he looked dead into the camera and thanked the people for suffering in silence. There are few moments I have ever felt so seen and understood. I cried
Definitely match the self-preservation profile, and I would add 9 to the list of types that we can look like. I think Remus Lupin seems like a self-preservation 4. The isolation, like Elsa, the secret sacrifice, and the compassion for other people's pain.
I just love your communication style, humility, vulnerability, etc. I absolutely loved when you were like "I'm trying. I might not have said it perfectly, but give me some compassion." I just love that.
man this video feels like it totally rags on social fours lol. and maybe it's true! i think i'm a social 4 and i do feel inadequate and unlovable (at my deepest and more vulnerable core) and maybe do come off as eeyore sometimes haha. but i think in being drawn to strong, deep emotions, we (or at least i) may also find ourselves drawn to strong humor, joy, and beauty etc. but yeah definitely agree with self-sabotage, guilt, and being really open about our negative emotions. and can't find our place in society. and i totally resonate with sadness as a main emotion!
I've been having a hard time understanding what my subtype is and this video was so helpful. When you directly addressed self-pres. fours I couldn't hold the tears back. I'm so thankful for the enneagram and for all the other people who use it, it's so validating to be seen. Even if its through a screen from a stranger, it truly means the world to me. Thank you so much.
I'm a social 4. Your description is pretty bleak, though I don't blame you. I'll give my thoughts, for what it's worth: Because my emotions--not just suffering--are so intense, I need to express them to digest and make sense of them and to validate them. Suffering is not an inherently bad emotion since it can give us insight into the human condition. I am frequently mired in deep emotions, so I must do something about them. In sharing my emotions, I can only hope others will see and understand me to validate my experience and ideally help us grow together. I want my experience to be appreciated--the good and the bad--lest I feel like I was never here at all. It's not necessarily about seeking help and pity but seeking to engage with people on a deep level, to appreciate the breadth of the human experience. It sounds to me like we social 4s, more than anyone else on the Enneagram, are best equipped to help humanity reflect on itself in the most profound ways.
Amazing video! Thank you for all your hard work and deep diving. I’m a 4W3 who spends the majority of my time as a self-preservation subtype. You absolutely nailed the description. I can be a social subtype but almost exclusively when I’m with a select few in my inner circle. I’ve learned most people don’t want to deal with emotional baggage so I don’t like to express my negative emotions in public. I am rarely a sexual subtype but have been there in my younger days. Anger doesn’t wear well on me so I hate when I need to express it.
Wow what you had to say about the self preservation 4 is exactly how I have always felt. It’s amazing to hear someone speak that gets me down to my core. It’s like I’m actually being heard even though I’ve never said what is going on inside of me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I'm a sexual 4w3, "this is the angriest type of all"! Oh shit, that's me. Always angry, not afraid of confrontations and yet very sensitive and emotional on the inside. I wonder if we are the most misunderstood and mistyped people too? Only yesterday a very experienced enneagram teacher thought that I must be an 8. Well, I'm not. It feels hard being myself and being a person other people don't want to be around. But I DO NOT want crush other people. I want to win and feel equal and feel often even superior to others but then come crushing down for being unemployed though I have a Master's degree, single though wanting a partner, lonely though wanting friends. And I have a hard time being compassionate with myself. Be kind to us! We don't know how to exist in this world with all this pain and not feeling adequate and worthy of love...
Omg....was scanning comments after watching the video and having a similar moment of, "oh, *uck me..." (I actually said it out loud too) when he talked about sexual 4's and all that anger crap =P (I say self-deprecatingly)...thank you for speaking out. I am a sexual 4w5 so I empathize VERY strongly as only sexual 4's can apparently LOL
I am also a sexual 4x3. When he compared me to Ursula and Scar, it honestly hurt. Because I do not see myself in that way at all, I would actually say that I’m a really nice person. Everything he said was in my opinion the description of an awful person, I would not like to be friends with this type. But I see that I am this person and that sucks. Luckily I don’t think I’ve pushed people away even though I should probably be more aware of that anger. I could also be a bit of an assertive 4 because I recognize with the whole taking on other peoples pain but idk
Same, I’ve miss typed as an 8 many times but was so confused as to why there were some parts that never fit... we so desperately want to be understood that we feel we need to demand it... I wish others, including my partner, could see past my anger to really see me and what lies beneath...
Your investments, projections, & data from, for & about this Enneagram Four in these three composites is a most worthy contribution. I have had the fortune to know such Comrades from a consistent distance for some 48 years. Your presentation really clears the view as to the dimensions of behavior factored down to its prime number. I much better understand why & how the four Leopards I have acquired, have forever maintained the internal fit of the, 1, 2 & 3 hats they wear like a badge of courage toying with self-doubt and behavior mentioned all these years. The '#4 Leapord', 'Individualist' has proven to be 'ONE' that will not change his/her Spots! Nature & Nurture
I feel like ive bounced around all these different subtypes throughout my life. I feel like growing up I was more as a sexual four, then into adulthood adopted self preservation four, now I am definitely at a place of being a social four. And again, althroughout life I can look back noticed a bouncing in and out of each of these at times! Pretty crazy. I am wondering why it's called a sexual four though? Haha
@@Halahalapeeno i didnt even think of that lol, i was running along the lines of how the enneagram is divided into 3 groups, (heart, mind, instinct) i was thinking similar for the subtypes and trying to find a pattern there. thanks for some extra ideas on it.
I feel this switching between the sub-types in myself too. To me they paralleled the levels of integration and disintegration that I’ve read about. When I was growing up and angsty, I displayed more sexual 4 behavior. This evolved to generally more social 4 behavior, and now I display more self-preservation 4 behavior. I do go between all three constantly though.
The self-preservation 4w5 INFJ-A is definitely me. I was always mistyping as a 1 but it never felt like it fit me. I did not let my difficult early life to define me. Even though I have self-control, I do process my strong emotions and issues privately with God and key people in my life. Long ago, I decided I did not want to be a victim but to persevere. I took responsibility for myself and my own feelings. In doing that I then can help others in the right way. Boundaries is my life lesson. Thank you and God bless you Dr. Tom.
very accurate about the social type, especially about the "testing" part. I find myself purposely displaying my drama to scare people away, which further proves my feeling of worthlessness.
i'm a 4w3 451 sp/sx EIE, and sp is extremely accurate for me. the only thing that doesn't resonate is that i work to keep up a happy attitude and hide it. i am severely mentally ill and don't really have the capacity to hide anything. it's too exhausting and feels too inauthentic. i hate pretending to be anything i am not. i have overwhelmingly painful emotions from cptsd, autism, existential OCD, fibromyalgia, and other conditions. my solution? isolate as deeply as possible. if i can't help but try to express myself among others(which always ends up hurting because no one understands), the only thing left to do is prohibit myself from ever trying to reach out at all. i have struggled immensely to connect with others all my life and have only had a few friends ever. i was ignored, abandoned, mocked, and humiliated to such a traumatic extent during all my abuse and suffering that i find it almost impossible to open up to anyone except for my partner. even for him, i feel a lot of shame and weakness, and wish i could just be alone and stop feeling so excruciatingly lonely.
Im new to this and just learned I'm a 4. Now watching this, when you described the self preservation 4, I got chills and teared up. It explains so much. Thank you for your research and work!
I'd say you are spot on with the self-preserving four, speaking from experience. "You will never know my pain" is not spoken as dramatic or as an invitation for inquiry, it's spoken as a fact.
I have honestly never felt so seen, thank you, really. It’s really hard to hear some of those things, but it’s also amazing. I’m definitely a self preservation on my good days and a social on my bad days. I want to look bubbly and positive so people will like me and I keep all the negativity in so to not bother others, but I secretly wish them to notice and acknowledge me, and I feel more and more worthless if nobody does, like it means they don’t care enough to notice, until it eventually comes out in a crying outburst. It felt like a blow to my soul when you said social 4s subconsciously test their loved ones, to make sure they will love them no matter what, ‘cause deep down they know they won’t and they will eventually get tired of their bullshit. That hurt, because it’s so true. I guess knowing and understanding the workings of the cycle is the first step towards growth, so that’s something at least. Thank you for helping me understand myself a little bit better.
Omgoodness thank you!!!! I cried happy tears the whole time I listened. Big heavy sigh. Thank you. I’ve been told I was “too much” from a very young age and I began to keep alll of that to myself, not just sad melancholy behaviors but also as and adult being “too sexy” “too accomplished”. I hide behind a suppressed mask and it’s exhausting. People absolute me adore me when they don’t actually know me. Once they see my darkness, my depth, my vulnerability- either a real long lasting friendship is formed OR they get the heck out of dodge because they can’t handle it. Now I know, I’m not too much. I’m just me :)
It was mad true and accurate when you said that us 4 SPs take on others pain and ignore ours. Like how we want others to depend on us, validate us by us supporting them. However, I'm also getting really burnt out and tired supporting, helping and listening to people who do not do the same to me. How they don't reciprocate the same respect I show them. It's getting really really exhausting tbh. I've been really hating this side of being happy by helping people out. It's like I'm not respecting and loving myself enough, and yet, I feel the need and want to always be there for someone when I can't even be there for myself. I'm tired of being supportive and caring. Being bold, courageous and confident is something I constantly want to be. I just wanna break free from people' pain and be detached from everything else. I want to be that. It's a tenacious cycle and I really wanna break free from it. Just everything. Ps. Im feeling moody now hahahaha
I am an INFP 4w5 SO/SX - 469 tritype I definitely understand the shadow and demon functions with my cognitive functions, in regards to MBTI typing. Same goes for my need to voice my emotions, and I also feel much more shame and guilt when not feeling excepted, being a social variant. As for my sexual variant, I enjoy one-on-one and intimate relationships and connections, outside of group settings, being emotionally too intense sometimes, even when not angry. Aside from those traits, I am a high anxiety person all around. I am skeptical, sometimes paranoid, and my social anxiety makes it all the worse for a push-pull life circumstance. I know I'll struggle to find the "perfect spot" in life, where my financial, academic, and social life all "mesh" into my idealized world. I struggle with what appears to be lifelong ADD tendencies, although I am too independent and will struggle with this alone for what also seems to be forever.
I took a test that said I was a 5w6 and recently learned that was a mistyped answer. After learning more about the enneagram I learned I am actually a 4w5. Your video hit all the missing pieces on the head. I am a self preservation 4w5.
This was spot on. I'm a 4w5 SP/SX. My SX side didn't like being called out and I'm going like "putting this hot take in my stupid zone" but then realizing that's clearly the 3 in me speaking. Now I'm going like whoops, bad take on my end, and silence is golden. The Elsa comparison I didn't see it until this explanation of SP and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I never felt this appreciated. Thank you so much for this video. Now I'm sounding like an SO. 😂 Insta-subbed!
I’m a 4, and again just like with the wings, I am not leaning towards any one of these strongly. I can see the sexual 4 in my younger self here and there, less and almost never now that I’m a mature 40 year old. I can see the social 4 and the self preserving 4 all throughout my life. I see myself becoming more of a self preservation 4 as I get older, as a matter of maturing. My passions: (painting, singing, playing instruments, dance, writing, gardening/plants, and my children, astrology, learning about people, learning foreign languages, etc., etc.,) that gets all my available attention these days. I’ve cut a lot out. Time is finite and it’s of the essence. I wasted a lot of time lost in emotionality in my less experienced years. Feeling like something was missing, tragically flawed, in lack, in longing, in sadness. And it was all so romantic. It felt so good it hurt. To be honest. I do think a 4 matures to the point where enough is enough. Yet still, never fully rid of the potential for the negative sides of the 4 to not pop up when under extreme stress. Let’s be real. I finally feel content and I suppose I am living like the healthy 1 on many many days. It took a lot of suffering that was often self inflicted a bit of course - For me to live my life now, by only focusing on and feeding what’s important. I’m practically allergic to spending my time and energy on the wrong things now! I’m too busy! And I’ve already lived a full life, fuller than most. I’ve seen things, I know things, so I’ve become a stoic 4, most of the time. My passions and my kids drive that. There were times, years, when I didn’t preserve myself, and that eventually lead me to self preservation as enough was enough and I learned the hard way. Basically I’m getting older, and just don’t have the innocence and energy for the down sides of the 4. Been there, done that.
I've been every one of the subtypes at some point in time. I've been more of a social 4 most of the time (I think), from what you have described. I go from being a social 4, then the sexual 4 for a split second because I'm not doing what I'm supposed to and I'm anger with myself. When I'm in that mood, if someone tries to interact with me the anger shows it's directed towards myself but comes out like I'm angry them, unintentionally. The anger goes away once I realise (immediately) how I've behaved then I apologize profusely and I become the self preservation 4, suppress and hiding all the emotions and outwardly might look like I'm in control, trying to ignore all that's going on inside. And the cycle goes on over and over again. That was before I saw the pattern in my behaviour. Now I tend to be more in the self preservation 4 stage but still struggle with "I'll fail even if I try" part of social 4 and the two stages - social and angry, are quite short, the angry 4 has always been the shortest stage but the most damaging too if the other person doesn't know me well enough. Is there anything you can advise that I can do to improve on staying more stable and productive without being too emotional ? Thank you so much for the videos I'm learning more about myself each day and this makes it easier for me to put my internal turmoil into words. :) Sorry about the long comment 😅 God bless you!
It sounds like you are very self-aware, which is great. Focus on the goal- moving toward 1. Work on balancing your wings- move toward your less dominate wing. Try to lean on your less dominate wing a little more and it will help you move to 1.
Im a self preservation four..and when you said thank you for your sacrifice. I broke down into tears and i cried because iv never been acknowledged before and i thought..he knows ! He knows !. Thank you, you helped me.
I love your enneagram coaching so much! I've been praying for so long that the Lord would show me what is wrong with me, been to several therapists, and you come in with one video that explains all of my problems! (Its glaringly obvious that I'm a social 4, I highly suspect my mother to be a sexual 4) You really are doing Gods work. So thankful to you for it! Now time for the hard work of getting healthy. God bless you!
It's amazing how much suffering is caused by one passion. Just place envy in a person's life, and it throws a huge wrench in plans and relationships. Extremes of emotions, feelings of rejection and degradation, all shaped by envy.
I disagree with the 4 So not taking action/responsibility, etc. I'm all about taking personal responsibility and I take plenty of action. I take action and initiate actions all the time. Also, I'm just as openly expressive of my happiness, excitement, enthusiasm and other positive emotions as I am my sadness and negative emotions. You said in the video that we express "more so" the sad emotions, but I'm an emotional rainbow!! Haha! Good or bad, positive or negative, I express it all!! I make it just as obvious to people when I'm happy and bubbly as I do when I'm sad or angry or any other emotion.
Thank you for affirming your frequent and willing expressions of joy and commitment. I am definitely a social four and I feel exactly the same way about my joy and any other present/recent positive feelings, thoughts, insights etc. I always want to share them, sometimes I can't help but share them and they are usually very noticable to others. This is especially true when my joy is related to the release of, freedom from, or transcendence of suffering! Man I want to share that with everyone because in my mind such knowledge, energy, or experience is the most beneficial and valuable thing anyone could possibly want! Personally the need for social fours to accept more responsibility might have resonated with me more than you, but I think there's a lot of nuance to it and I'm wondering if you feel the same way or if any other social fours reading will see this tendency in themselves. I may sometimes need to accept or "take on" more responsibility, but I am not irresponsible. With the responsibilities that I initiate, or at least consciously accept and verbally agree to, I consistently demonstrate a high degree of commitment and follow through. If I say I'm going to do something for a friend or even a stranger I'll do it. If I have a value, cause or an ideal I make a commitment to I will dedicate myself to it and take substantial action until the underlying beliefs have actually been fully reevaluated and altered. If there's a project I start, or even tasks on my to do list, you bet I will prioritize carefully, finish them 9/10, and the 10% I don't finish at some point will usually no longer be relevant (as opposed to missed opportunities from procrastination or failure). Unfortunately the low, or at least uncertain, feelings of self worth feeds into my choices and notions of responsibility a lot. I often doubt and question my ability to handle certain kinds of responsibilities, and I shy away from testing the limits of my resources like energy, focus and (of course) tolerance for pain/suffering. I find myself EXTREMELY envious of the people who seem to be able to do, see, handle, and get it all. What he said about envy being exhausting hits really close to home.... It sucks (yay self pity for my suffering lol) and I have always had a hard time working with other people, hiding my own feelings in public, managing my personal roller coaster of emotions or going with the flow and accepting other people's values and expectations when they are not in alignment with my own. On the flip side I judge and disdain the people who take on a lot of responsibility, can't handle it, and continue to delude themselves and others into believing this time will be different. So flaky, unreliable, irresponsible or deceitful are probably not ways of describing social fours. I think we look at these kind of people and immediately recognize the suffering they cause everyone and will empathize with the bystanders as well as be disgusted by the lack of self awareness from the perpetrator too much to imitate the behavior.
Tom, your video on " help for type 4" is brilliant. End of video re when a 4 is healthy is so clear. "Constructive living" the book - written by a 4 helped me go to healthy type 1 - action in the mundane world restored me back to sanity. You might look it up, Brill little book. Loving your work. Ireland.
As a self-preservation 4, I show a sunny disposition in my daily life, but I'm lucky to have found an outlet for my emotional turmoil, anxiety and overthinking in poetry and art 😅
Depending on who I am around and the situation, I can see myself in all 3 subtypes. I try to stay in type subtype 1. However, under extreme stress, I can move into subtype 2. If I feel backed into a corner, I can definitely have some moments as that angry and vindictive subtype 3.
Yes, I went looking for this comment because I knew there had to be someone else who felt that all three apply in different circumstances. People close to me say I wear my heart on my sleeve, never afraid to be honest even with tough emotions, but they were surprised to find that because initially I came off as so confident and unmoved by emotion. Then of course there have been times where I’ve been pushed to my limit to finally expel the fullness and even cruelty of my truth, and the weight of my “negative” feelings. Of course in childhood I was told that my emotions were too much and I should chill out. As an adult I’ve come to terms with authenticity being important in order to bond with people, but I don’t want to burden, push or scare them off with too much honesty so I let people be aware but while also keeping everything in check.
I think part of the comfort of sadness, when that's a thing, mostly comes from it feeling so appropriate, like everything fits, you're getting what you deserve. More subconsciously, a monster of self-loathing get his daily bread. About familiarity, if that sounds really weird, you're probably not properly imagining what it would be like to have your baseline experience be sadness. When your emotions are getting away from you and you lose control, you try to get back to baseline, and all you have to do to get sad is stick yourself with a word-knife. And imo, a still sadness is more comfortable than chaotic turmoil, though obviously there's more growth opportunity in the chaos than stillness. Being motivated to summon sadness felt to me to like having instant access to privacy; and maybe there's little difference between "going there" and erecting my walls. It felt the same. -4sp, lots of "so" behavior as a teen/young adult
Thank you for this description and parcelling out different subtypes of 4. I have known I was a four for over twenty years and kept retesting myself to see if by chance I was misinformed. I couldn’t quite see that I fit except for the massive desire to create and make meaningful art in all kinds of mediums. Now, after hearing your talk, I am totally and completely a Sunny Four. Here’s what has been so helpful to me over many years of working with the suffering and pain, both my own and the world’s...my healing is others’ healing. In other words, I am best able to help others if I am tending to my own suffering, working with my hands to transmorph the pain into something beautiful. Then I am able to be of service to others in their pain and not have it be an escape from my own. Knowing and daily believing that I am cherished by my Maker allows me to be freer to live , not for others to notice and approve, but for a sense of following the unique call on my life to transpose pain into beauty. Your description of this subtype has helped me more than any other readings about my personality type. Thank you!🙏
Thanks for another great video. I love how interested you are in really understanding everyone.....especially 4’s. Nice to feel understood and acknowledged and not judged. It was so great to find this new video here. I am often awake for a couple of hours during the night and instead of tossing and turning with anxiety I use this time to listen to videos. I am learning a lot more about the enneagram and gaining awareness about myself which is being reflected in my life and relationships. So good at this difficult time to feel connected with you through your understanding....this is what we all need to do with each other. I wish you and your family well. Take care Stay Well 🙂🙏
I think I've been fully all of those subtypes as I was dealing with the deluge of emotions and treatment by others towards me, continuously. It's bringing back a lot of memories. I vaguely remembered I was a horrible person when I was younger and I was amazed I had any friends back then. But the reasons for the behaviour are wrong, for me anyway. My father enjoyed picking fights every day, he would put me down and mock me, every day, he was a troll and I was the only member of our family that stood up to him. I used to stick up for my mother as well, 'cause he'd do it to her as well. So I was trained to be argumentative and combative and defensive and fight for my rights. Then one day I decided to stop adding fuel to his arguments, a person can't have a one sided argument. So I stopped arguing with him and started to treat him like a piece of furniture. I did that for 2 years. Then finally my mother left him and I didn't speak to him for 9 years. I went through the rest of the time more aloof, with a shield, because other people were also doing the troll thing on me. So I didn't trust people for many years. If I show you my feelings, are you going to attack me for it? The shield wasn't because I'd figured out people couldn't handle my feelings, it's I didn't trust them with my vulnerabliity. Then I got therapy and did personal development and that's when I really got into trouble, confronting responsibility for a lot of things. I had to win because I was under attack. I wasn't going to be a victim, I thought, I was defending myself against attack. I did envy people, but I turned that into striving to have the same for myself. I don't like to want things I can't have, so I would bring my desires into reallity, now I don't need to be jealous, I've got it too. Now I'm in 5 after many years trying to connect with people and not being able to. I put a lot of effort into suppressing anger when I'm attacked or taken advantage of, or ignorred. Now I'm holding back my feelings to be more civil to people, to be more respectful. I aim to have win/win outcomes and I try to communicate assertively not passive aggressive or aggressive and it's an endless struggle, 'cause I can be triggered. I'm much calmer now, I only lash out when someone really over steps my boundaries. I sort of feel normal, closest to normal I've ever felt. I may not be connecting, but internally I feel good about what I've achieved with myself. I had a lot of trauma to unpack, a lot of betrayal and pain and negative life experiences to let go of.
This video is a breath of fresh air with all that is going on. Thank you so much for taking my mind to a happy place for awhile. God bless you and your family. ❤️
wow, you really touched a nerve for me in a good way! I've been trying to understand my "four" ness and your sunny four description was so perfect - today talking to a friend I said my main - number one job is to "Endure" - that the world is do tough right now and we have to survive it and be able to take care without having to rely on anyone else and it will get better. I try to cope with all my emotions by sitting with them and reason through them. But the part about wanting to ask others about their problems and emotions was really how I cope! amazing.
As a social subtype, there is something particularly broken about me. I am part of the 10℅ of the population with a psyche disorder, and I realize only recently it began a decade ago in my adolescence. I need to question my own judgment much of the time, but just observing my patterns is so helpful.
That self preservation subtype makes so much more sense and fits to me way more then what you mostly read about the 4 in general! Thanks for your clear insights, explanation and noticing us. You made my day.
Hmm... I see myself in all of these subtypes. I go through all of them every time something emotional happens to me. First I am the social 4 and feel there is something wrong with ME... Then I become the sexual 4 and get angry about feeling that way, and angry at whoever triggered those feelings, but then I stop... And swallow the anger AND sadness, and I become the sunny 4 where I put on my happy face in front of others (But I DO feel happy when I do that, so it's not fake really, I just ONLY show that side, which sometimes feels like a bit of a break from all the sadness)... I'm working on this stuff A LOT these days, and I feel that I'm on my way to becoming a somewhat healthy "Elsa", because I aknowledge all my different stages, my feelings, and I usually stop and think before I express any of it to others. I'm kind of always aware of what is healthy and unhealthy to me, and I want to be healthy and happy more than anything. I can talk about deep and/ or heavy stuff if people genuinely want to know, but I keep things to myself as much as I, as a 4, can! :P (I have a 2-sister, who's good at listening and supporting, so I'm not totally alone with everything)
This seems so weird because I also feel like I bounce between all three very often. Like I embody all of them, combined they express me most but individually they all seem to miss the mark slighlty. I want to be great and unique, but I don’t need to be The Best. I just need to prove that I am somebody of worth, often that leads to me comparing myself to the best and competing with them. I feel sad because I know I may not be able to truly fit in like others but I cherish that and wouldn’t give it away because it’s proof that I’m different and that I’m unique- that I’m me. But I never cry, I have more of a chill mellow disposition most of the time. Only when I am unhealthy do I feel like Eaor, but often I feel hopeful. I am driven by goals and I’m extremely adventurous. It is when I am doing good work that I am often at peace. But those moments of peace can be overtaken anxiety or stress because I get stuck in the future and can’t appreciate the present. Needless to say I am a strong visionary and highly conceptual. I feel like a conundrum or paradox often.
I now understand why that "Hey Stranger" video resonates with me so much. When you thanked SP 4s I was absolutely balling because it was all so true and I hardly ever hear people really say and understand how I feel. I always would go back to that strange video because the words he was saying resonated with me in a way I couldn't explain, and is not something I hear much from the people in my life. Thank you for this.
Thank you so much for your videos! I have never come across such a clear articulation of how I have always felt on the inside. I definitely relate with always feeling like there was something wrong with me ever since I was a small child. I’m a 4w5 and the self preservation bit really struck home with me. However I am also wondering if an eating disorder that I suffered with for most of my teen/adult life could be a manifestation of a social four. I feel like I subconsciously wanted my outside appearance to reflect how I felt on the inside: small, broken, frail, inadequate, weak. I wanted people to see my suffering but it was too difficult for me to express it in a more overt way. I appreciate the time and energy that you have put into these videos, they’ve been a great help.
Thank you for this. I am a self preservation 4 and I became so emotional when I felt so seen. I completely agree that Elsa is an example of Self Preservation 4 and when I first saw Frozen I was almost in tears watching myself on screen.
I may be a social 4 that always had a drive to improve so I've come a long way from social anxiety to being able to talk with people. Sometimes I'm like a self preservation 4 but I think I started out as social and started keeping my feelings to myself since no one will ever care about my problems as much as I do. I started focusing on helping myself and I've really grown since then.
being positive and supportive with friends and then repost sad memes on twitter to show them how much pain you actually hold - self-preservation 4's daily routine 👌
Yes, many times during the day I'm telling exactly the same: "Oohh, that's four stuff... That's four stuff again! ...." And so on and so on... But healing and accepting myself is really precious process. Thank you for your patience to explain everything nicely. 🙏
I'm a 4w5. Growing up in a toxic & abusive household I was definitely SP. But after leaving that environment I became SX. I don't know if it was due to the years invalidation & repressing my feelings but I had so much rage & I was determined to never end up in an abuse situation ever again. Unfortunately I became incredibly toxic. Thankfully after coming to Jesus, a lot of personal growth, intense therapy & the support of my incredible 8w7 SP husband I've moved into a much healthier space. For any SX 4 it's important to remember what our natural tendency is & what we're capable of all while balancing that with the important relationships in our lives. Sometimes we have to take a step back and evaluate our emotions and compare that to the facts of the situation. A 5 wing really helps with this.
Crazy. I'm a 4w5 subtype 1 (enduring). I have A LOT of 8 also with my core fear being controlled, but have grown away from the over domineering facets of the 8 as I grew. Oldest if 4 syblings, who doesnt "fit in" the family. (People think I don't or can't suffer) . 99% 4 / 85% 5 / 84% 8 I think I started as 4w3 with a lot of 8 as my protection. And have shifted to a 4w5 as I got older, more humble less aggressive. This is crazy accurate stuff !!
Dear Tom, thank you! Finally it all makes sense. 20 years the Enneagram is part of my life, but I never truly found my place in it. For years I thought I was a 2, helping others, being influenced by their opinion and acceptance ... 4 never made sense, because I am definitely never angry, never mean, never intriguing. But self preservation 4 hits the mark. My exact words some months ago: "My feeling are too much for others and if I let them out, they cannot live with that and will abandon me" - and yes, friends have done that in the past. "I am a burden to others, if I show my true self"... Thank you again. Keep going. Your way of explaining is greatly helpful. By the way. I am a pastor who loves helping families through the hard times of death and a funeral. Best part of my job and I am really good at it.
6:12 self preservation four
25:00 social four
44:15 sexual four
Muchas Gracias.
sswli99 Thanks!
Do you have information regarding a social 4 (wife) and a social eight (husband) in relationship? We have been married for 47 years. I think the long suffering in both of us may be the reason we are still married.
@@gloriafullmer403
My girlfriend is a social 8 and I'm a sexual 4.
I've had another relationship with the same.
Personally, I love 8s.
6:12 self preservation four
“I’m not going to burden you with my pain, but tell me about your pain.” You just called me out so hard lol.
I know, it stings.
This is me!
Yes!!!! And I'm OK with listening to the pain of others, unless it's triggering to me. It's hard to explain.
Yep. I'm now a Mental Health First Aider and unofficial counsellor to family, friends and team at work. And I just "have to" take on the burden of achieving success, for my self worth, my team's wellbeing and to support my family. Dauntless on the outside, suffering anxiety on the inside, but learning to share my experience to help feel the feels and normalise the challenges of mental health. Thanks Tom ❤️❤️❤️
Me
The SP made me laugh and cry. After 7 years together i told my partner 'if i was to release all my pain and show the world the real me, i would no longer be recognizable as a human'.
This comment is some legit shit. It feels like VERY VERY few people can "hold" that space for .. that outlet of intensity and depth.
that made me cry
Hit me hard.
This is so true
The SP made me cry as well. I have values and beliefs that cost me the loss of acceptance from family members and friends who are on different political sides with materialistic priorities and humorous topics of conversation. Just in general, being more conservative and traditional in such a progressive generation is hard. (Gen Z)
What i really enjoy about you is that, you can say the harsher things, and for once in my life, knowing you actually say it with care and caution, makes me not get offended. Personally that is THEE perfect person to narrate and make such videos. I’ve seen other youtubers who tell the harsher truths with this sort of disdain or ‘get over it’ vibe, you definitely said your harsher truths about 4’s with absolute sensitivity and willingness to be corrected or given more info. What can i say, i repeat, you are the most perfect person, to tell others who it is.
Agreed 👍
100%! ♥️
Instablaster
ya! ❤️
Hell yeah ❤️
I am a self persevere 4. My tears outflow when I finally hear someone in the world try to make an understanding speech of myself, my sacrifice to the good of other people by suppressing my pain. Thank you for identifying the on-going hard work on ”suffer in silence”. Truly appreciate your compassion heart to us.
You are very welcome.
Same... Really appreciate that virtual hug 💖 You do awesome work Dr Tom Lahue!
I almost cried too, when he said “suffering in silence”
Me too 🙏🏼
Me in tears finally someone who understands and makes me feel not so alone
When you said "You are a person of worth and value and you don't have to do a thing for us to know that." it literally brought me to tears. Affirmation means so much to me as a 4, so thank you, for seeing us and loving us for who we are. I know we can be very difficult people but I think we have the biggest hearts in all the enneagram.
@Isaiah Scott I accept them as worthy partners in heart.
Oh god. I came to the comments to make the same comment.
As someone who definitely has a strong tendency to be a sexual four, I was initially thrown by the characterization that we are competitive because I think of myself as someone who doesn't like and actively avoids competition... but now I'm realizing that's probably because I am so sensitive to any competition or comparison I allow myself to engage in. For example, for the most part (esp. in high school) this angry competitiveness/anger against an "unjust" system really comes/came out in philosophical debates. Very interesting.
I was having a REALLY hard time figuring out if I was a 9 or a 4, because I'm not at all internally detached the way nines are. I think being a self-preservation 4 explains a LOT of my 9 traits.
HI I LOVE YOU. Thank you. This is EXACTLY why I'm here, my friend! I am called sunny or sunshiney regularly and feel that most people don't understand the emotional depth and difficulty/turmoil going on inside me - they would probably describe me as nice, kind, friendly an very caring. I have wondered a lot if I am a social nine, because I am quite warm and and want to gently and quietly lead others without drawing attention to myself . . . and so I have been absolutely tirelessly working to understand which type is overall and truly my best fit. I realllllyyy was struggling with that same point you mentioned about the 9 type, which is the tendency to be detached from what's going on inside. On the contrary, I am deeply, overly, and tumultuously (??) attuned to it. In fact, I'd LIKE to be able to detach from my anxiety and sadness and stress, and sometimes even try to distract myself by learning ABOUT myself in an attempt to reconcile and no longer feel lost and confused about my worthiness and ability, but alas . . . anxiety seems, for me, to be heightened by attempts to stifle or not feel it. I am keenly aware.
Anyways, thank you so much for commenting; I know it wasn't for me, haha, but it's tremendously reassuring to have someone express the same confusion as myself! I now know I'm not crazy, and that I'm cool enough to be a four AND sunshiney;) ( I already knew that, but . . . maybe not).
Jesus I thought with 100% certainty that I'm all 9 until he described the sp 4. Damn, new rabbit hole lol
Wow! I can't believe it: I had this experience as well. I thought I was a Nine, but I am not -- I am a self-preservation Four. It was when I started spending time with another person who identifies as a Nine and I began to understand that his issues are not my issues. My husband (a One) walked in when Dr. LaHue was talking about gut types, and he mentioned the Nine and said the Nine holds everything in, or something to that effect, and my husband said, that's not you! You don't hold anything in! And I was laughing so hard, I was like, I know, I know -- what I am feeling, I will eventually need to express to him or someone else I am close to. And that is the Four, my friends. We can't hold in our feelings. If we do, we will literally burst. Even self-pres Fours!
I looked into it more, I'm still definitely a 9 with some SP4 tendencies lol.
"suffering in silence". Wow, I didn't know my subtype before this, but this Self-Preservation description is reeeally hitting me. It's not that I suppress my feelings from myself -- I sob in my car regularly -- but I'm constantly hypervigilantly looking out my window, worried someone's noticing and upset or concerned. Worried I'm "alienating people", as you said.
Also I literally joined the Peace Corps lol, and I love "challenging myself" to see how much I can "handle", taking myself on melancholy lonely solo adventures around the world to really "be in my feelings and prove I can do hard things".
And oh my god, I relate SO MUCH to Elsa in Frozen. My SP 4-ness makes me want to find a castle far far away, like she did, so I don't burden anyone with myself, and I have peace and quiet to just feel my feelings in silence. Damn.
Social 4: i think they also have a deep need to be completely honest and authentic with themselves and the world- which is why they show up without hiding the negative emotions.
I’m a self preserving 4 who has struggled to feel like I fit into the 4 paradigm- and you totally spoke to myself.
I have social 4 characteristics in my tritype. The characteristics that describe the social 4 have been prominent in me ever since I was 13 (in my late 20s now). Hearing it all said back to me is incredibly accurate. Before I was at that age, I felt like a normal kid, but I had a dysfunctional family due to parents that didn't get along with each other and stressed each other out which in turn indirectly took their frustrations out on me and caused myself to have multiple breakdowns in secret. Apparently I was a very sensitive kid, so every time something happened (getting yelled at harshly, being made to feel inferior/incompetent, having my words fall on deaf ears/neglected, etc.) I couldn't help but cry of course. Add to that a lot of pressure to stay on top of school with perfect grades -> my self-esteem crumbled more and more every day. The most triggering moment was when my step-dad observed my introverted, quiet, and reserved nature (as I'm actually a sexual 5) to mean that there was something wrong with me, that I was in depression because I spent time in my room a lot. When he told me that, I felt confused and it had me questioning my own mental state indefinitely since. I think from that moment on, along with the repeated emotional breakdowns, I felt that there was something wrong with me. I asked myself questions like "Why can't I just not cry like other people? Why do I feel like this? I can perfectly understand everything that happens with my logical thinking, but the tears won't stop and I can't get rid of these feelings that I will never be good enough as a human being. I'm not strong like everyone else and can't seem to suck it up." Of course, these thoughts were always kept hidden from everyone I knew due to the feeling of shame. I hardly ever saw anyone close to me crying in the open, so I thought that it was shameful to display these strong negative emotions. Anyway, these thoughts and feelings weighed too heavily on me so eventually I did fall into depression. I just wish that my step-dad, as a non-professional, hadn't tried to diagnose or even suggest to me the idea of depression as a young kid that was just starting to go through puberty hormones and hadn't been exposed to enough experience to conclude anything for myself at that age. If that hadn't happened, I think I would have had more hope in me in overcoming the bad times and not letting them stew in my mind like there is something inherently wrong with me that I couldn't change and make better (I subconsciously believed that me keeping to myself a lot as an introverted person meant that I was permanently in a bad mental space, not so much because of other things that were actually happening to me). As a sexual 5, I could only trust one person (that I would search for) at a time to be my true self around, but with the social 4 characteristics, it would sometimes be hard for me to hold back the suffering I feel when talking to that person. I try not to overwhelm these people with my negative emotions because they are/were important to me. I'm currently with a self-pres 2 right now who is incredibly supportive and non-judgmental, who also has a good, level head on him as well as goes beyond to meet my needs. I'm very grateful to him for never making me feel bad about myself and frequently reminding me of the good qualities that I possess which helps me feel more balanced and functional.
Me before the video: " I keep getting 4 in the test but I don't FEEL like a 4..."
*Self Preservation Four shows*
Me: "Oh, shiiiiiiiit."
Haha same
To help 4 people out there stuck in the 'sexual' subtype, I'd say that it could be helpful to project your anger not onto people, but onto the root causes of behaviors that hurt you, for this is completely valid to feel hurt by some behaviors. So, by using the investigating part of your intelligence (we are curious and creative enough to do that)
I'm sure this projected intention can make some of the most efficient activists
Jesus christ the sexual four is spot on for me. I'm insanely competitive and feel like sometimes I want to destroy everyone in my path. The underlying narrative is "they'll understand or recognize me when I'm on the top". Which also means that I have to prove my worth to anyone who has rejected me and have to show through my accomplishments. Damn..
I might have just cried so hard when you said, "thank you for your sacrifice." I don't think anyone could ever know.... I'm definitely a self-preservation 4. I have never had someone understand me in the way you have described. It's hard shit being this type!!
I loved that part too. I cried and cried when you thanked us.
Me too. But how do we stop sacrificing and trying to prove our worth?
@@elycetyler1942 We don't. It's not a bad quality. Just balance it out and challenge yourself out of that comfort zone in some way or another. Get a little selfish and try to enjoy it even if you start to feel a little guilty.
I noticed that you gave examples of how people can't handle certain aspects of both the sexual and the social 4s, but you didn't give an example for something people can't stand about the self preservation 4s. As I watch your video (which is very good), and read about the subtypes of 4s in various articles, I see the pattern of the self-preservation 4s getting the "most healthy" treatment of the three sub types, although it's not usually explicitly stated.
As a self-preservation 4w5, I find that most of my issues are internal because I keep things in. Many difficulties arise because of this, but from my experience because of the internal side of it all, I get so self-focused that I end up not being like a real human, like my true self. Something I've recently learned and am beginning to practice is the letting-off of those burdens that come with long-suffering. It is not my purpose to shoulder those things, and when I let go and rest, I find that I become more at ease and am living as the person I know I truly am. There's more to this that I'm discovering, but I'll stop here.
Yeah, I'm also a self-preservation 4 and while I do a really good job of managing friendships and family relationships, I've gotten to a point in my partnership where my suppressing of emotion and long suffering turned into some serious resentment and I'm having to do a lot of work right now to be real and show up honestly. Like, it's a little hard realizing how much of this stuff I've been carrying around is unnecessary and in my head. It's not everything, of course, but I'm not even giving my partner the chance to support me in ways that I want support because I'm so quick to squash those feelings. I'm sure it's infuriating for her but I'm slowly getting better at it.
but to your point, I think that there isn't a "most healthy" subtype, it's of course where you're at in your personal growth. I think the self-pres just keeps our problems to ourselves so we don't make waves as often.
I am a 4w5, new to this, and you have helped me so much with your perspective. If you haven't I'd recommend you watch the music video to Katy Perry's "Wide Awake". Might not resonate with you but I lived through the hospitalization of it all. As to what people can't handle about us? We usually don't let them see any of it. So if there's anything they can't handle about us, it's probably the withholding. The faking things. The inauthenticity, which flies directly in the face of our nature. We are meant to be real. That means stormy emotions and all. I didn't find someone who accepted that about me until I started to accept it in myself. Hope this helps.
Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Beatrice Chestnut's treatment of the social 4 is remarkably one-sided and negative. Susan Rhodes (possibly my fave Enneagram author) gives a much more balanced perspective on them.
Conscious Monster -- I agree and as I was listening and analyzing I think the self preservation 4 (me) ends up experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance because in the act of self preservation and turning inward and tamping down the pain to become "long suffering" it feeds into a feeling of inauthenticity.
I love how fluid the enneagram is. As a child, teen, and young adult, I was primarily a self preservation 4. Now, as a tired 30-year-old whose worldview has changed massively since my youth, I have become primarily a social 4. But as I look back, I see brief phases of sexual 4 peppered here and there throughout my life.
wait can you change!?
@hatzistu8180 I definitely think you can. I think he said in the video that all 4's have these types, but lean more one way than another. I think you go through phases of growth that can affect things. When I was in high school and middle school I was definitely a sexual 4. My envy and insecurity was so strong, and I really projected that. I was a minefield for my family. I wanted to be more of the self preserving because I felt like repressing negative emotions (that I thought were caused by being "too sensitive" after enough time of people telling me I was "too sensitive") was more loving and forgiving. Like a SP I didn't communicate my emotions but like a sexual 4 I struggled with envy so much that I projected onto other people.
Now I'm in my late 20's and I've grown out of some of that, and I might lean more towards social because of my life experiences. I can recognize all of these in myself.
If it helps, think of Meyers Briggs. I am ISFP but people are hardly ever 100% of one letter. You might be like 80% self preserving and like 5% social and 15% sexual. We're all too complicated to be broken down that simply.
This is so accurate ! "SP 4s can be mistaken for 3 for their drive or for 7 because they look joyful", I had never heard that from anyone else, and it is so true ! Thank you !
Your tons of notes are really useful (I also like the way you make fun of yourself with them. A sunny 4 could have definitely done that).
I'm a social 4 too when I can't suppress no more and than I isolate and come back as a self-preservation 4. I also feel like if no one noticed me suppressing and like you said need attention or validation I will express my sensitivity.
goddessoftruth oof, I feel this quite a bit. It’s like riding on a pendulum 😂
THIS!
Omg, same! That's so true!
The stack theory makes so much sense with this!That you have a more dominant instinct, and a secondary instinct you make use of, and a third that's more suppressed. So for this it would prob be 1. Self Pres 2. Social 3. Sexual
Preach! I am much more of a self preservation 4, but sometimes I break and become a social 4. I am a very emotional person and I stuff so much down that sometimes it comes out like a volcano because it has to get out sooner or later. However, when I get overly emotional in front of people I am immediately embarrassed and apologize, and try to hide away.
You made me cry. Guess I’m a self preserving 4w5. Thank you for seeing us and being so kind. I think I’m starting to understand.
for any of us with ignored childhood trauma, the shame of the pain is lifelong partly because we are always reminded our suffering doesn’t matter - if you don’t matter when you suffer, you don’t matter. Probably that is triggered thinking but for me I’ve never found it to be untrue.
Only recently getting into the more detailed aspects of the Enneagram. Your videos have helped more than any other resource. I seem to fit into the self-preservation 4. I was a bit surprised when you said “don’t tell them they can’t do something because that will motivate them to do it.” My mother once told me that I was gaining weight, and couldn’t run a 10 minute mile anymore. Consequently, I immediately got up and ran a 5k much faster than my body could handle, and collapsed from hypoglycemia shortly thereafter. Still one of my proudest moments.
LMAO i literally tell people to use reverse psychology on me for this reason
"Thank you for your sacrifice. I see you" ... the tears I was suppressing through the whole SP description couldn't be held back with that one. So much gratitude for this and the work you're doing! Thank you!!!
Also I cried so much during Frozen and even more Frozen 2 haha! I knew Elsa had to be a 4! The lyrics from Show Yourself ..."YOU are the one you've been waiting for all your life." If I ever need to cry and pull back into my own emotions ... that song does it, lol!
Mr Darcy from pride and prejudice is for sure a self pres 4.
"you are Elsa!" My daughter lol-ed hearing you say this about me!
That's hilarious
Wow! Thank you so much for this explanation!!! I’m a self-preservation 4 that behaves a lot like 1 and 7. For the longest time I wasn’t sure if I were a real 4. This fits perfectly. The stoic appearance in situation of crisis, endurance for pain, not dwelling on negatives, trying to keep upbeat, distracting self with not wanting to burden others with my own pain! Having too much empathy and taking responsibility! Being attuned to others emotions and the environment. Alleviating pain of others. Fighting for other people. Earning admiration is a big theme too! Suffering in silence! I’m speechless.
I think I might be a social 4. However, a lot of the things you describe sounds kind of like how an unhealthy social 4 would act. I have definitely done those things in the past, but I'm different when I have a healthy mindset. I'm not afraid of taking action and responsibility in my life, and I am not too fond of showing everyone my emotions. However, in my few intimate relationships I share my feelings more.
Yeah the SO description seemed mostly negative and describing it in an unhealthy state. I might have added something about being hyper aware of group dynamics and what role each person plays in a group, as a SO4 i am always thinking about group dynamics and how i fit into the group, and not necessarily in a negative way, often it's just analyzing the group to see what each person contributes to it and determining the best way for me to fit in and feel included while still maintaining individuality and contributing something of my own. I also am not super expressive of my emotions unless i am comfortable with that person, tbh this video has me thinking i might be a SP 4 because I make an effort not to push my emotions onto others but at the same time i very much relate to the SO description so I'm not sure.
Since I have a hard time figuring out if I’m a 4 or a 9, I know that I really resonate with the self preservation 4. Enduring. And enduring for the world. This definitely lets me know that I’m a four.
Awesome.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I was stuck between thinking I was either a 5 or a 9 for awhile. The self preservation hits home hard. We are 4w5s, enigmatic and perplexing.
When you compared Elsa to the self preservation four I knew for sure that was me 😂 but honestly- I kept going between a four and a nine, feeling mostly like a four, except for that I have this great passion for helping people, and the psychology of the mind is fascinating to me. My husband often comments on how I listen to “murder shows” (missing persons podcasts mostly) and how it confuses him so much because I’m such a happy, goofy, soft person. I couldn’t explain it to him. But when you mentioned that need to focus on a pain that’s not your own, and to serve others in order to take away that pain- that explains so much about my personality. Also- when you mentioned comparison and envy with a four. I didn’t realize that wasn’t something everyone did. I had to pause the video to ask my husband (I believe an 8) if he experiences that. I honestly thought everyone was constantly comparing themselves in their heads. Envy and jealousy were the biggest things I have had to work on in my life. I have a pretty good handle on it all now. But I can see where that possibly comes from leaning into caring for others. As an empath, this has always been a big part of my life. As a new mother, I have been happier than ever before. Possibly because she brings me worth. She’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen, and I’m her favorite person in the world. It’s almost intoxicating knowing I am so loved. Anyways- you just gained a new subscriber. Wonderful content. Wonderful heart. I felt like you were speaking directly to me.
I am so happy...this post is exactly why I do this channel.
@Forestfairy - I think we're the same person. Lol. Thanks for sharing your comment! I feel like being a mother and raising a child with the love I never felt would give me the worth I'm looking for, but sadly, I have PCOS and do not know if I'll ever be able to have children naturally. I do, however, have an amazing and very close bond with my best friend's two children. They fill a void I've long felt AND I get to give them back when I'm ready to have my peace again. ♥️
This post makes ME so happy :)
Wowowowowow!!! This is very similar to me in a way! Thank you for sharing ; it is so exciting and affirming to be hearing about people with similar lived experience. :') My heart kind of cries tears of joy at it. I too LOVE studying psychology and understanding what goes wrong for/within people for the things to happen that do; there's a part of me that's very comfortable with the darkness and ok with acknowledging and accepting that it is a part of life, but I am also regularly described as sunny, friendly, and "so caring and nice!" Haha. I think I must throw the poor people I trust for a loop, but am thankful to have some really solid ones who do see and appreciate my uniqueness and weirdness. In highschool I had an undiagnosed eating disorder for quite a while, and there was so much comparison I look back on from there. I am joyously blessed to say I don't compare in a negative or competitive way now in my life, but I am still very aware of the differences between myself and others - this is innate for me; I WANT us to be different and stand out from each other, and I WANT to know where others are struggling because I feel better about myself when I'm of service to others and genuinely loving others well - if I'm helping bring healing and peace, I'm making the most of who I am, even if I feel pretty insignificant at my worst moments. I know I will make a difference and hopefully, do it with a little flair and fun. :)
I urge you to check out Katherine Fauvre's tritype info on YT here...will bring you home! Essentially, we have 3 types (one from each triad center) in descending order...so you may be a 4-9-x where x could be either a 5, 6 or 7. She also has an excellent test that absolutely pinned me as a 5-8-2 sp. Tritypes will bring clarity!
I think I'll write more later, because this video is just SO inspiring, and I have so much to say about it, but one thing I wanna say right away, as a self-preservative four: I also have always wanted my pain to be seen, especially as a child. Of course I would hide it, and show it only when I was "alone in my room", or simply away from other, but at the same time all I wanted was for someone to notice I wasn't there anymore, to come looking for me, to see my pain despite the fact that I was hiding it not to burden them. I wanted someone to see me for what I was and love me despite it, and BECAUSE of it. I think that's always been my deepest desire (while the deepest fear was that if I ever were to show someone what I had inside, all of my feeling, all of my needs, they would instantly walk away from me).
Again, therapy helps.
Girl YES! I relate to this so much. Even now when I’m mad at my husband and I disappear into the other room to cry, all I really want is for him to come check on me. To see that I’m hurt but I chose to cry away from him even though I want him to validate me so badly.
I feel the need to send you both hugs 😉🤗
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
YES. I love the way you described this, the wanting pain to be seen and known, and desiring to be loved through, and even for, it. That's beautiful and speaks into my heart straight. There's a deep longing for that safeness and trust, and it's so special when found. But, in my experience, it is rare to come across someone who I feel similarly enough to, and safe enough with, to share my pain as it comes. I always weep alone. Whenever I've had my darkest moments and felt my worst and darkest feelings, it's been alone. And I always come out ok afterwards. But yeah, thank you for expressing this piece of your heart. :) It matters.
@@forestfairy8025i am sx5 i really find it interesting 😍
I’m a self preservation 4, and this was all so spot on, I was almost crying. Thank you
Thank you so much , I truly appreciate your hard work and the amount of effort, energy , and passion you put in these videos , especially the ones about four. I relate so much to the self preservation 4 . I become expressive when the burden is too much , I find so much healing in there but still I minimize my pain and always feel guilty to make it a big deal , I compare it to pain in the world and I feel ashamed then shut down again.
I test people a lot , people fail me when I do that , they are used to me being tough and strong and listening to them so whenever I let out a little of my consent inner drama I get “ what's wrong ? What's the big deal ?” , they go silent , or withdraw , or angry . I hate drama , I always keep everything to myself but even in these moments I don't get the compassion . That's when I withdraw , and feel more like I am not worthy . But it's also about choosing the right people , luckily I have one friend that I can turn in to when I am struggling , I love her so much . She helped trust people again , she helped me feel seen, valued for the first time in my life .
Glad it was helpful.
Khadra Mohamed yes, I agree with you on this so much. When we open up it baffles people sometimes because they don't know what to do with it.
I relate to this...maybe I am SP 4 afterall...it got to be too much at a point and I sort of exploded and was oozing pain all the time for years. So I can relate to all the 4s.
My friends who are 4s are the best at making me feel loved no matter what my sins are. Or my thoughts and feelings. Love my 4 friends. And I hate that awkwardness that comes when I try to share my feelings with someone and they just don’t get it. Makes me feel like I’m a freak. So alone. Studying the enneagram is helping me to know I have value, but more so, PURPOSE! There is definitely a place and a NEED for 4s in this world.
You are definitely not alone! Relate to this so much. Hope you are doing better.
Omg, 4 SO here. No wonder I relate to 6 sometimes cuz I feel like I'm testing my friendships similar to how a 6 tests their friendships to see if they are truly loyal. And I never knew that 4 SO is considered by others to sometimes look like a type 6. That explains so much. I thought maybe it was a "tritype" thing, like I thought maybe 6 is part of my tritype.
EDIT: ....For anyone who is NOT a type 4, I want to clarify something: Yes I might expect or need more support than the average person, but I would never expect or ask for something that I wasn't willing to give just as much (if not MORE) of it in return back to the person. So, for example, if I expect/want/need "support" it means I will give YOU just AS MUCH support back, IF NOT MORE, if you ever need/want it. I would never ask for something that I'm not READILY willing to give back to you or others!! I would always return the favor!! because that's just how a 2-way street friendship works, IMHO. :)
I always know that I have hit upon the type that describes me when all of a sudden I get emotional. When you mentioned that self preservationists are humanitarian, they suffer in silence, and you just want to give them a hug, and to say thank you for their self sacrifice, I almost burst into tears, in fact I did tear up. So, that confirmed to me that I am definitely the self preservationist subtype of 4 (4w5 to be exact).
The same thing happened when I was reading about the different types on the Enneagram Institute’s website. I was trying to figure out whether or not I was a 4. And then I read about how fours feel misunderstood, and have never felt like they fit in, and that really resonated with me. The clincher was when I read, “While it is true that Fours often feel different from others, they do not really want to be alone. They may feel socially awkward or self-conscious, but they deeply wish to connect with people who understand them and their feelings. The “romantics” of the Enneagram, they long for someone to come into their lives and appreciate the secret self that they have privately nurtured and hidden from the world.”
Again, I almost burst into tears. That sealed the deal for me!
Thinking of the Self-Preservation 4, a character that fits the description might be Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Her sister Marianne is so demonstrative of all her emotions, but Elinor is true to the charge to keep her sorrows hidden and exclaims, “What do you know of my heart? What do you know of anything but your own suffering. For weeks, Marianne, I've had this pressing on me without being at liberty to speak of it to a single creature. It was forced on me by the very person whose prior claims ruined all my hope. I have endured her exultations again and again whilst knowing myself to be divided from Edward forever. Believe me, Marianne, had I not been bound to silence I could have provided proof enough of a broken heart, even for you.” Then Elinor goes and comforts Marianne. Finally at the end of the movie, such a fantastic scene when her emotions escape and she cannot do anything to hold them back.
Self preservative four felt so much like myself. I have always had a very happy go lucky outer persona and inside I would feel like a hurricane. I feel the best when I can connect with other people’s pain and try to help them in ways I could never help myself. You did a wonderful job of explaining self preservative type that I felt so understood even way more than I could understand myself.
I might suggest... why would a 4 want to be seen in their suffering? My thoughts are that they felt incredibly unseen in their suffering as children - and there is a sense of desperation to have that need met later in life. My experience is that they suffered tremendously as young children and had no one to be with them in that place - so it comes out of a longing for a need to be met and healed. The 4s can look to others for this need to be met and ultimately need to find it within.
I’m a sexual 4w3. The way you described the anger of this type is spot on. My anger usually manifests itself in how I feel about not being understood. I get so angry at people for not automatically getting what I mean and why I do what I do. Then once I think they’re catching on I get annoyed because I don’t want them to think they can assume I will act a certain way. So I pull away and reject them. As to say, “You didn’t know me before and you don’t get to now!” Now obviously this is when I’m not very healthy. When I’m healthy I’m calm, empathetic and open with people. We gotta remember this system is fluid
Thank you Tom, I'm a self preservation four and I really broke down when you said thank you for your sacrifice and that we're suffering in silence. I have the type four childhood wound. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. My dad very rarely made an appearance. He was an alcoholic and drug addict as was my mom. My mom was usually high and out of it. I was the caregiver for my brother and I from a young age. I never had space to be me or to be heard. I was also in foster care from 8-10 and 12-18. Very neglected growing up. Even in the foster homes; you were physically looked after, but emotionally neglected. I felt incredibly isolated. Even sexually abused due to my mom's bad judgments and carelessness. I didn't have a real friend till high school because we were constantly moving around. Finally settled in my teens in my last foster home and opened up a bit. I'm in a much better place, but I just endured because no one wanted to give me space to feel. One particular time I remember being told not to feel was when I was in foster care and having visits with my mom once a week for just an hour. I would cry when I left the visits and my foster mom told me if I kept crying after the visits they would have to stop taking me. They didn't want to deal with my emotions.
I'm sorry
I had a similarly dysfunctional childhood. Sexual abuse by foster child, Absent father, neglectful mother, having to take care of my younger brother. Essentially raising myself. I also had to cut my mother out of my life recently for certain reasons. But i wanted to reach out to you because I thought it might be good to talk to someone, who might understand how you feel.
Misty Morgan Reading this made me cry for you . I hear you . ❤️
@@TheDJMysterE I'm sorry
@@marienguessan8520 ❤
Self-Pres 4.. When he looked dead into the camera and thanked the people for suffering in silence. There are few moments I have ever felt so seen and understood. I cried
Definitely match the self-preservation profile, and I would add 9 to the list of types that we can look like.
I think Remus Lupin seems like a self-preservation 4. The isolation, like Elsa, the secret sacrifice, and the compassion for other people's pain.
I just love your communication style, humility, vulnerability, etc. I absolutely loved when you were like "I'm trying. I might not have said it perfectly, but give me some compassion." I just love that.
SP-4, literally was crying because you defined me perfectly, in a way i couldn’t yet comprehend, thank you.
man this video feels like it totally rags on social fours lol. and maybe it's true! i think i'm a social 4 and i do feel inadequate and unlovable (at my deepest and more vulnerable core) and maybe do come off as eeyore sometimes haha. but i think in being drawn to strong, deep emotions, we (or at least i) may also find ourselves drawn to strong humor, joy, and beauty etc. but yeah definitely agree with self-sabotage, guilt, and being really open about our negative emotions. and can't find our place in society. and i totally resonate with sadness as a main emotion!
Thanks for sharing this.
I’ve never felt more seen. Thank you. This was a pivotal point in my life, watching this. God bless you for allowing Truth to teach through you.
I've been having a hard time understanding what my subtype is and this video was so helpful. When you directly addressed self-pres. fours I couldn't hold the tears back. I'm so thankful for the enneagram and for all the other people who use it, it's so validating to be seen. Even if its through a screen from a stranger, it truly means the world to me. Thank you so much.
I'm a social 4. Your description is pretty bleak, though I don't blame you. I'll give my thoughts, for what it's worth:
Because my emotions--not just suffering--are so intense, I need to express them to digest and make sense of them and to validate them. Suffering is not an inherently bad emotion since it can give us insight into the human condition. I am frequently mired in deep emotions, so I must do something about them. In sharing my emotions, I can only hope others will see and understand me to validate my experience and ideally help us grow together. I want my experience to be appreciated--the good and the bad--lest I feel like I was never here at all. It's not necessarily about seeking help and pity but seeking to engage with people on a deep level, to appreciate the breadth of the human experience. It sounds to me like we social 4s, more than anyone else on the Enneagram, are best equipped to help humanity reflect on itself in the most profound ways.
Type 4 "The Healer"
I’m a Sexual 4W3 this video has been very helpful and also you’re very good at this.
I'm glad to hear that you found the video helpful! It's always great to connect with others who share similar experiences.
Amazing video! Thank you for all your hard work and deep diving. I’m a 4W3 who spends the majority of my time as a self-preservation subtype. You absolutely nailed the description. I can be a social subtype but almost exclusively when I’m with a select few in my inner circle. I’ve learned most people don’t want to deal with emotional baggage so I don’t like to express my negative emotions in public. I am rarely a sexual subtype but have been there in my younger days. Anger doesn’t wear well on me so I hate when I need to express it.
What’s your mbti?
@@Just-99me ENFJ. After looking into it more, I actually think I’m more 3W4 on enneagram.
@@AntoineLavoisier im an Infj
Wow what you had to say about the self preservation 4 is exactly how I have always felt. It’s amazing to hear someone speak that gets me down to my core. It’s like I’m actually being heard even though I’ve never said what is going on inside of me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I'm a sexual 4w3, "this is the angriest type of all"! Oh shit, that's me. Always angry, not afraid of confrontations and yet very sensitive and emotional on the inside. I wonder if we are the most misunderstood and mistyped people too? Only yesterday a very experienced enneagram teacher thought that I must be an 8. Well, I'm not.
It feels hard being myself and being a person other people don't want to be around. But I DO NOT want crush other people. I want to win and feel equal and feel often even superior to others but then come crushing down for being unemployed though I have a Master's degree, single though wanting a partner, lonely though wanting friends. And I have a hard time being compassionate with myself.
Be kind to us! We don't know how to exist in this world with all this pain and not feeling adequate and worthy of love...
Omg....was scanning comments after watching the video and having a similar moment of, "oh, *uck me..." (I actually said it out loud too) when he talked about sexual 4's and all that anger crap =P (I say self-deprecatingly)...thank you for speaking out. I am a sexual 4w5 so I empathize VERY strongly as only sexual 4's can apparently LOL
I am also a sexual 4x3. When he compared me to Ursula and Scar, it honestly hurt. Because I do not see myself in that way at all, I would actually say that I’m a really nice person. Everything he said was in my opinion the description of an awful person, I would not like to be friends with this type.
But I see that I am this person and that sucks. Luckily I don’t think I’ve pushed people away even though I should probably be more aware of that anger.
I could also be a bit of an assertive 4 because I recognize with the whole taking on other peoples pain but idk
Same, I’ve miss typed as an 8 many times but was so confused as to why there were some parts that never fit... we so desperately want to be understood that we feel we need to demand it... I wish others, including my partner, could see past my anger to really see me and what lies beneath...
@@jordannp1134 I don't need to comment because you literally said exactly what i was going to say. word by word. Even the 'partner' part.
Your investments, projections, & data from, for & about this Enneagram Four in these three composites is a most worthy contribution. I have had the fortune to know such Comrades from a consistent distance for some 48 years. Your presentation really clears the view as to the dimensions of behavior factored down to its prime number. I much better understand why & how the four Leopards I have acquired, have forever maintained the internal fit of the, 1, 2 & 3 hats they wear like a badge of courage toying with self-doubt and behavior mentioned all these years. The '#4 Leapord', 'Individualist' has proven to be 'ONE' that will not change his/her Spots! Nature & Nurture
Thanks
I feel like ive bounced around all these different subtypes throughout my life. I feel like growing up I was more as a sexual four, then into adulthood adopted self preservation four, now I am definitely at a place of being a social four. And again, althroughout life I can look back noticed a bouncing in and out of each of these at times! Pretty crazy. I am wondering why it's called a sexual four though? Haha
Yes me too! I was a sexual 4, the sp4 and now social 4!
i think just like our wings, we can also play our subtypes when required
I think preservation (silence), social (words), sexual (action) is in order from least to most obvious/physical/aggressive etc. if that makes sense...
@@Halahalapeeno i didnt even think of that lol, i was running along the lines of how the enneagram is divided into 3 groups, (heart, mind, instinct) i was thinking similar for the subtypes and trying to find a pattern there. thanks for some extra ideas on it.
I feel this switching between the sub-types in myself too. To me they paralleled the levels of integration and disintegration that I’ve read about. When I was growing up and angsty, I displayed more sexual 4 behavior. This evolved to generally more social 4 behavior, and now I display more self-preservation 4 behavior. I do go between all three constantly though.
The self-preservation 4w5 INFJ-A is definitely me. I was always mistyping as a 1 but it never felt like it fit me. I did not let my difficult early life to define me. Even though I have self-control, I do process my strong emotions and issues privately with God and key people in my life. Long ago, I decided I did not want to be a victim but to persevere. I took responsibility for myself and my own feelings. In doing that I then can help others in the right way. Boundaries is my life lesson. Thank you and God bless you Dr. Tom.
very accurate about the social type, especially about the "testing" part. I find myself purposely displaying my drama to scare people away, which further proves my feeling of worthlessness.
i'm a 4w3 451 sp/sx EIE, and sp is extremely accurate for me. the only thing that doesn't resonate is that i work to keep up a happy attitude and hide it. i am severely mentally ill and don't really have the capacity to hide anything. it's too exhausting and feels too inauthentic. i hate pretending to be anything i am not. i have overwhelmingly painful emotions from cptsd, autism, existential OCD, fibromyalgia, and other conditions. my solution? isolate as deeply as possible. if i can't help but try to express myself among others(which always ends up hurting because no one understands), the only thing left to do is prohibit myself from ever trying to reach out at all. i have struggled immensely to connect with others all my life and have only had a few friends ever. i was ignored, abandoned, mocked, and humiliated to such a traumatic extent during all my abuse and suffering that i find it almost impossible to open up to anyone except for my partner. even for him, i feel a lot of shame and weakness, and wish i could just be alone and stop feeling so excruciatingly lonely.
Im new to this and just learned I'm a 4. Now watching this, when you described the self preservation 4, I got chills and teared up. It explains so much. Thank you for your research and work!
I'd say you are spot on with the self-preserving four, speaking from experience. "You will never know my pain" is not spoken as dramatic or as an invitation for inquiry, it's spoken as a fact.
Thank you for sharing your perspective! It’s true that sometimes our experiences shape our understanding in ways that others may never fully grasp.
I have honestly never felt so seen, thank you, really. It’s really hard to hear some of those things, but it’s also amazing.
I’m definitely a self preservation on my good days and a social on my bad days. I want to look bubbly and positive so people will like me and I keep all the negativity in so to not bother others, but I secretly wish them to notice and acknowledge me, and I feel more and more worthless if nobody does, like it means they don’t care enough to notice, until it eventually comes out in a crying outburst.
It felt like a blow to my soul when you said social 4s subconsciously test their loved ones, to make sure they will love them no matter what, ‘cause deep down they know they won’t and they will eventually get tired of their bullshit. That hurt, because it’s so true.
I guess knowing and understanding the workings of the cycle is the first step towards growth, so that’s something at least. Thank you for helping me understand myself a little bit better.
Omgoodness thank you!!!! I cried happy tears the whole time I listened. Big heavy sigh. Thank you. I’ve been told I was “too much” from a very young age and I began to keep alll of that to myself, not just sad melancholy behaviors but also as and adult being “too sexy” “too accomplished”. I hide behind a suppressed mask and it’s exhausting. People absolute me adore me when they don’t actually know me. Once they see my darkness, my depth, my vulnerability- either a real long lasting friendship is formed OR they get the heck out of dodge because they can’t handle it. Now I know, I’m not too much. I’m just me :)
Am I a 4? Am I a 7? Am I a 4? Am I a 7? OOooooHhhhhhh! I'm a self-pres 4. Finally, this makes sense to me!
That is awesome. This makes me sooo happy!
Suzanne Harris me too!
DUDE SAME
Suzanne Harris yess!! This was me until watching his videos!
Same!! Although I'm still not 100% sure!
It was mad true and accurate when you said that us 4 SPs take on others pain and ignore ours. Like how we want others to depend on us, validate us by us supporting them. However, I'm also getting really burnt out and tired supporting, helping and listening to people who do not do the same to me. How they don't reciprocate the same respect I show them. It's getting really really exhausting tbh. I've been really hating this side of being happy by helping people out. It's like I'm not respecting and loving myself enough, and yet, I feel the need and want to always be there for someone when I can't even be there for myself. I'm tired of being supportive and caring. Being bold, courageous and confident is something I constantly want to be. I just wanna break free from people' pain and be detached from everything else. I want to be that. It's a tenacious cycle and I really wanna break free from it. Just everything.
Ps. Im feeling moody now hahahaha
I am an INFP 4w5 SO/SX - 469 tritype
I definitely understand the shadow and demon functions with my cognitive functions, in regards to MBTI typing. Same goes for my need to voice my emotions, and I also feel much more shame and guilt when not feeling excepted, being a social variant. As for my sexual variant, I enjoy one-on-one and intimate relationships and connections, outside of group settings, being emotionally too intense sometimes, even when not angry.
Aside from those traits, I am a high anxiety person all around. I am skeptical, sometimes paranoid, and my social anxiety makes it all the worse for a push-pull life circumstance. I know I'll struggle to find the "perfect spot" in life, where my financial, academic, and social life all "mesh" into my idealized world. I struggle with what appears to be lifelong ADD tendencies, although I am too independent and will struggle with this alone for what also seems to be forever.
Ditto
Hi, we have all the same personality types. I get you
another INFP 4w5 SO/SX here! we're pretty rare i think...
hi fellow infp so4s
The best presentation I have ever heard on enneagram's four. Your mixture of compassion and realism is simply melting. Thanks.
Wow, thank you!
I’m definitely self-preservation 4; my personal motto has long been ‘quietly suffer’ so this hit home hard. Thank you so much for the great content!
I took a test that said I was a 5w6 and recently learned that was a mistyped answer. After learning more about the enneagram I learned I am actually a 4w5. Your video hit all the missing pieces on the head. I am a self preservation 4w5.
This was spot on. I'm a 4w5 SP/SX. My SX side didn't like being called out and I'm going like "putting this hot take in my stupid zone" but then realizing that's clearly the 3 in me speaking. Now I'm going like whoops, bad take on my end, and silence is golden. The Elsa comparison I didn't see it until this explanation of SP and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I never felt this appreciated. Thank you so much for this video. Now I'm sounding like an SO. 😂 Insta-subbed!
I’m a 4, and again just like with the wings, I am not leaning towards any one of these strongly. I can see the sexual 4 in my younger self here and there, less and almost never now that I’m a mature 40 year old.
I can see the social 4 and the self preserving 4 all throughout my life. I see myself becoming more of a self preservation 4 as I get older, as a matter of maturing.
My passions: (painting, singing, playing instruments, dance, writing, gardening/plants, and my children, astrology, learning about people, learning foreign languages, etc., etc.,) that gets all my available attention these days.
I’ve cut a lot out. Time is finite and it’s of the essence. I wasted a lot of time lost in emotionality in my less experienced years. Feeling like something was missing, tragically flawed, in lack, in longing, in sadness. And it was all so romantic. It felt so good it hurt. To be honest. I do think a 4 matures to the point where enough is enough. Yet still, never fully rid of the potential for the negative sides of the 4 to not pop up when under extreme stress. Let’s be real.
I finally feel content and I suppose I am living like the healthy 1 on many many days. It took a lot of suffering that was often self inflicted a bit of course - For me to live my life now, by only focusing on and feeding what’s important.
I’m practically allergic to spending my time and energy on the wrong things now!
I’m too busy! And I’ve already lived a full life, fuller than most. I’ve seen things, I know things, so I’ve become a stoic 4, most of the time. My passions and my kids drive that.
There were times, years, when I didn’t preserve myself, and that eventually lead me to self preservation as enough was enough and I learned the hard way.
Basically I’m getting older, and just don’t have the innocence and energy for the down sides of the 4. Been there, done that.
Brilliantly stated.
I've been every one of the subtypes at some point in time. I've been more of a social 4 most of the time (I think), from what you have described. I go from being a social 4, then the sexual 4 for a split second because I'm not doing what I'm supposed to and I'm anger with myself. When I'm in that mood, if someone tries to interact with me the anger shows it's directed towards myself but comes out like I'm angry them, unintentionally. The anger goes away once I realise (immediately) how I've behaved then I apologize profusely and I become the self preservation 4, suppress and hiding all the emotions and outwardly might look like I'm in control, trying to ignore all that's going on inside. And the cycle goes on over and over again.
That was before I saw the pattern in my behaviour. Now I tend to be more in the self preservation 4 stage but still struggle with "I'll fail even if I try" part of social 4 and the two stages - social and angry, are quite short, the angry 4 has always been the shortest stage but the most damaging too if the other person doesn't know me well enough.
Is there anything you can advise that I can do to improve on staying more stable and productive without being too emotional ?
Thank you so much for the videos I'm learning more about myself each day and this makes it easier for me to put my internal turmoil into words. :)
Sorry about the long comment 😅
God bless you!
It sounds like you are very self-aware, which is great. Focus on the goal- moving toward 1. Work on balancing your wings- move toward your less dominate wing. Try to lean on your less dominate wing a little more and it will help you move to 1.
@@twlahue thank you so much for the reply. I'm pretty new to enneagram but I'll look into it for sure. :)
I very much appreciate the long comment you made and the advice given because of it.
Im a self preservation four..and when you said thank you for your sacrifice. I broke down into tears and i cried because iv never been acknowledged before and i thought..he knows ! He knows !. Thank you, you helped me.
I love your enneagram coaching so much! I've been praying for so long that the Lord would show me what is wrong with me, been to several therapists, and you come in with one video that explains all of my problems! (Its glaringly obvious that I'm a social 4, I highly suspect my mother to be a sexual 4) You really are doing Gods work. So thankful to you for it! Now time for the hard work of getting healthy. God bless you!
It's amazing how much suffering is caused by one passion. Just place envy in a person's life, and it throws a huge wrench in plans and relationships. Extremes of emotions, feelings of rejection and degradation, all shaped by envy.
I disagree with the 4 So not taking action/responsibility, etc. I'm all about taking personal responsibility and I take plenty of action. I take action and initiate actions all the time. Also, I'm just as openly expressive of my happiness, excitement, enthusiasm and other positive emotions as I am my sadness and negative emotions. You said in the video that we express "more so" the sad emotions, but I'm an emotional rainbow!! Haha! Good or bad, positive or negative, I express it all!! I make it just as obvious to people when I'm happy and bubbly as I do when I'm sad or angry or any other emotion.
Thank you for affirming your frequent and willing expressions of joy and commitment. I am definitely a social four and I feel exactly the same way about my joy and any other present/recent positive feelings, thoughts, insights etc. I always want to share them, sometimes I can't help but share them and they are usually very noticable to others. This is especially true when my joy is related to the release of, freedom from, or transcendence of suffering! Man I want to share that with everyone because in my mind such knowledge, energy, or experience is the most beneficial and valuable thing anyone could possibly want!
Personally the need for social fours to accept more responsibility might have resonated with me more than you, but I think there's a lot of nuance to it and I'm wondering if you feel the same way or if any other social fours reading will see this tendency in themselves.
I may sometimes need to accept or "take on" more responsibility, but I am not irresponsible. With the responsibilities that I initiate, or at least consciously accept and verbally agree to, I consistently demonstrate a high degree of commitment and follow through. If I say I'm going to do something for a friend or even a stranger I'll do it. If I have a value, cause or an ideal I make a commitment to I will dedicate myself to it and take substantial action until the underlying beliefs have actually been fully reevaluated and altered. If there's a project I start, or even tasks on my to do list, you bet I will prioritize carefully, finish them 9/10, and the 10% I don't finish at some point will usually no longer be relevant (as opposed to missed opportunities from procrastination or failure).
Unfortunately the low, or at least uncertain, feelings of self worth feeds into my choices and notions of responsibility a lot. I often doubt and question my ability to handle certain kinds of responsibilities, and I shy away from testing the limits of my resources like energy, focus and (of course) tolerance for pain/suffering. I find myself EXTREMELY envious of the people who seem to be able to do, see, handle, and get it all. What he said about envy being exhausting hits really close to home.... It sucks (yay self pity for my suffering lol) and I have always had a hard time working with other people, hiding my own feelings in public, managing my personal roller coaster of emotions or going with the flow and accepting other people's values and expectations when they are not in alignment with my own.
On the flip side I judge and disdain the people who take on a lot of responsibility, can't handle it, and continue to delude themselves and others into believing this time will be different. So flaky, unreliable, irresponsible or deceitful are probably not ways of describing social fours. I think we look at these kind of people and immediately recognize the suffering they cause everyone and will empathize with the bystanders as well as be disgusted by the lack of self awareness from the perpetrator too much to imitate the behavior.
When you said Elsa I cried. I have always resonated with her, also being autistic that song really hits me everytime
Tom, your video on " help for type 4" is brilliant. End of video re when a 4 is healthy is so clear. "Constructive living" the book - written by a 4 helped me go to healthy type 1 - action in the mundane world restored me back to sanity. You might look it up, Brill little book. Loving your work. Ireland.
Is the book you mentioned written by David Reynolds? Im curious because I would like to order it and want to make sure I’m getting the right book.
As a self-preservation 4, I show a sunny disposition in my daily life, but I'm lucky to have found an outlet for my emotional turmoil, anxiety and overthinking in poetry and art 😅
Depending on who I am around and the situation, I can see myself in all 3 subtypes. I try to stay in type subtype 1. However, under extreme stress, I can move into subtype 2. If I feel backed into a corner, I can definitely have some moments as that angry and vindictive subtype 3.
Yes, I went looking for this comment because I knew there had to be someone else who felt that all three apply in different circumstances. People close to me say I wear my heart on my sleeve, never afraid to be honest even with tough emotions, but they were surprised to find that because initially I came off as so confident and unmoved by emotion. Then of course there have been times where I’ve been pushed to my limit to finally expel the fullness and even cruelty of my truth, and the weight of my “negative” feelings.
Of course in childhood I was told that my emotions were too much and I should chill out. As an adult I’ve come to terms with authenticity being important in order to bond with people, but I don’t want to burden, push or scare them off with too much honesty so I let people be aware but while also keeping everything in check.
I think part of the comfort of sadness, when that's a thing, mostly comes from it feeling so appropriate, like everything fits, you're getting what you deserve. More subconsciously, a monster of self-loathing get his daily bread. About familiarity, if that sounds really weird, you're probably not properly imagining what it would be like to have your baseline experience be sadness. When your emotions are getting away from you and you lose control, you try to get back to baseline, and all you have to do to get sad is stick yourself with a word-knife.
And imo, a still sadness is more comfortable than chaotic turmoil, though obviously there's more growth opportunity in the chaos than stillness. Being motivated to summon sadness felt to me to like having instant access to privacy; and maybe there's little difference between "going there" and erecting my walls. It felt the same.
-4sp, lots of "so" behavior as a teen/young adult
(43:15 -As a Taylor Swift fan, I think most people who are into her music and the Enneagram agree she’s a 3w4, probably with a sx/sp variant).
Thank you for this description and parcelling out different subtypes of 4. I have known I was a four for over twenty years and kept retesting myself to see if by chance I was misinformed. I couldn’t quite see that I fit except for the massive desire to create and make meaningful art in all kinds of mediums. Now, after hearing your talk, I am totally and completely a Sunny Four. Here’s what has been so helpful to me over many years of working with the suffering and pain, both my own and the world’s...my healing is others’ healing. In other words, I am best able to help others if I am tending to my own suffering, working with my hands to transmorph the pain into something beautiful. Then I am able to be of service to others in their pain and not have it be an escape from my own. Knowing and daily believing that I am cherished by my Maker allows me to be freer to live , not for others to notice and approve, but for a sense of following the unique call on my life to transpose pain into beauty. Your description of this subtype has helped me more than any other readings about my personality type. Thank you!🙏
Thanks for another great video. I love how interested you are in really understanding everyone.....especially 4’s. Nice to feel understood and acknowledged and not judged. It was so great to find this new video here. I am often awake for a couple of hours during the night and instead of tossing and turning with anxiety I use this time to listen to videos. I am learning a lot more about the enneagram and gaining awareness about myself which is being reflected in my life and relationships. So good at this difficult time to feel connected with you through your understanding....this is what we all need to do with each other. I wish you and your family well. Take care Stay Well 🙂🙏
I think I've been fully all of those subtypes as I was dealing with the deluge of emotions and treatment by others towards me, continuously. It's bringing back a lot of memories. I vaguely remembered I was a horrible person when I was younger and I was amazed I had any friends back then. But the reasons for the behaviour are wrong, for me anyway.
My father enjoyed picking fights every day, he would put me down and mock me, every day, he was a troll and I was the only member of our family that stood up to him. I used to stick up for my mother as well, 'cause he'd do it to her as well. So I was trained to be argumentative and combative and defensive and fight for my rights.
Then one day I decided to stop adding fuel to his arguments, a person can't have a one sided argument. So I stopped arguing with him and started to treat him like a piece of furniture. I did that for 2 years. Then finally my mother left him and I didn't speak to him for 9 years.
I went through the rest of the time more aloof, with a shield, because other people were also doing the troll thing on me. So I didn't trust people for many years. If I show you my feelings, are you going to attack me for it? The shield wasn't because I'd figured out people couldn't handle my feelings, it's I didn't trust them with my vulnerabliity.
Then I got therapy and did personal development and that's when I really got into trouble, confronting responsibility for a lot of things.
I had to win because I was under attack. I wasn't going to be a victim, I thought, I was defending myself against attack.
I did envy people, but I turned that into striving to have the same for myself. I don't like to want things I can't have, so I would bring my desires into reallity, now I don't need to be jealous, I've got it too.
Now I'm in 5 after many years trying to connect with people and not being able to. I put a lot of effort into suppressing anger when I'm attacked or taken advantage of, or ignorred.
Now I'm holding back my feelings to be more civil to people, to be more respectful. I aim to have win/win outcomes and I try to communicate assertively not passive aggressive or aggressive and it's an endless struggle, 'cause I can be triggered. I'm much calmer now, I only lash out when someone really over steps my boundaries. I sort of feel normal, closest to normal I've ever felt. I may not be connecting, but internally I feel good about what I've achieved with myself. I had a lot of trauma to unpack, a lot of betrayal and pain and negative life experiences to let go of.
This video is a breath of fresh air with all that is going on. Thank you so much for taking my mind to a happy place for awhile. God bless you and your family. ❤️
Glad you enjoyed it!
You nailed it. I've never felt so understood by another human 😭
I suspect that I'm the sexual 4... When you said "it's exhausting" I cried...
Thank you for the video!!
wow, you really touched a nerve for me in a good way! I've been trying to understand my "four" ness and your sunny four description was so perfect - today talking to a friend I said my main - number one job is to "Endure" - that the world is do tough right now and we have to survive it and be able to take care without having to rely on anyone else and it will get better. I try to cope with all my emotions by sitting with them and reason through them. But the part about wanting to ask others about their problems and emotions was really how I cope! amazing.
As a social subtype, there is something particularly broken about me.
I am part of the 10℅ of the population with a psyche disorder, and I realize only recently it began a decade ago in my adolescence.
I need to question my own judgment much of the time, but just observing my patterns is so helpful.
That self preservation subtype makes so much more sense and fits to me way more then what you mostly read about the 4 in general! Thanks for your clear insights, explanation and noticing us. You made my day.
Hmm... I see myself in all of these subtypes. I go through all of them every time something emotional happens to me. First I am the social 4 and feel there is something wrong with ME... Then I become the sexual 4 and get angry about feeling that way, and angry at whoever triggered those feelings, but then I stop... And swallow the anger AND sadness, and I become the sunny 4 where I put on my happy face in front of others (But I DO feel happy when I do that, so it's not fake really, I just ONLY show that side, which sometimes feels like a bit of a break from all the sadness)... I'm working on this stuff A LOT these days, and I feel that I'm on my way to becoming a somewhat healthy "Elsa", because I aknowledge all my different stages, my feelings, and I usually stop and think before I express any of it to others. I'm kind of always aware of what is healthy and unhealthy to me, and I want to be healthy and happy more than anything. I can talk about deep and/ or heavy stuff if people genuinely want to know, but I keep things to myself as much as I, as a 4, can! :P (I have a 2-sister, who's good at listening and supporting, so I'm not totally alone with everything)
This seems so weird because I also feel like I bounce between all three very often. Like I embody all of them, combined they express me most but individually they all seem to miss the mark slighlty. I want to be great and unique, but I don’t need to be The Best. I just need to prove that I am somebody of worth, often that leads to me comparing myself to the best and competing with them. I feel sad because I know I may not be able to truly fit in like others but I cherish that and wouldn’t give it away because it’s proof that I’m different and that I’m unique- that I’m me. But I never cry, I have more of a chill mellow disposition most of the time. Only when I am unhealthy do I feel like Eaor, but often I feel hopeful. I am driven by goals and I’m extremely adventurous. It is when I am doing good work that I am often at peace. But those moments of peace can be overtaken anxiety or stress because I get stuck in the future and can’t appreciate the present. Needless to say I am a strong visionary and highly conceptual. I feel like a conundrum or paradox often.
I now understand why that "Hey Stranger" video resonates with me so much. When you thanked SP 4s I was absolutely balling because it was all so true and I hardly ever hear people really say and understand how I feel. I always would go back to that strange video because the words he was saying resonated with me in a way I couldn't explain, and is not something I hear much from the people in my life. Thank you for this.
Thank you so much for your videos! I have never come across such a clear articulation of how I have always felt on the inside. I definitely relate with always feeling like there was something wrong with me ever since I was a small child. I’m a 4w5 and the self preservation bit really struck home with me. However I am also wondering if an eating disorder that I suffered with for most of my teen/adult life could be a manifestation of a social four. I feel like I subconsciously wanted my outside appearance to reflect how I felt on the inside: small, broken, frail, inadequate, weak. I wanted people to see my suffering but it was too difficult for me to express it in a more overt way. I appreciate the time and energy that you have put into these videos, they’ve been a great help.
Thank you for this. I am a self preservation 4 and I became so emotional when I felt so seen. I completely agree that Elsa is an example of Self Preservation 4 and when I first saw Frozen I was almost in tears watching myself on screen.
Oh my, I’m a social 4 😩. No wonder I get on my own nerves so much!
I know makes me hate myself more...
I may be a social 4 that always had a drive to improve so I've come a long way from social anxiety to being able to talk with people. Sometimes I'm like a self preservation 4 but I think I started out as social and started keeping my feelings to myself since no one will ever care about my problems as much as I do. I started focusing on helping myself and I've really grown since then.
being positive and supportive with friends and then repost sad memes on twitter to show them how much pain you actually hold - self-preservation 4's daily routine 👌
Yes, many times during the day I'm telling exactly the same:
"Oohh, that's four stuff... That's four stuff again! ...."
And so on and so on... But healing and accepting myself is really precious process.
Thank you for your patience to explain everything nicely.
🙏
The sexual four sounds great, coming from a self preservation four! (Do I sense some fellow four envy... 🤔?)
Lol😜
Self preservation 4 sounds great coming from a Sexual 4 🤣
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'm a 4w5. Growing up in a toxic & abusive household I was definitely SP. But after leaving that environment I became SX. I don't know if it was due to the years invalidation & repressing my feelings but I had so much rage & I was determined to never end up in an abuse situation ever again. Unfortunately I became incredibly toxic. Thankfully after coming to Jesus, a lot of personal growth, intense therapy & the support of my incredible 8w7 SP husband I've moved into a much healthier space.
For any SX 4 it's important to remember what our natural tendency is & what we're capable of all while balancing that with the important relationships in our lives. Sometimes we have to take a step back and evaluate our emotions and compare that to the facts of the situation. A 5 wing really helps with this.
Crazy. I'm a 4w5 subtype 1 (enduring). I have A LOT of 8 also with my core fear being controlled, but have grown away from the over domineering facets of the 8 as I grew.
Oldest if 4 syblings, who doesnt "fit in" the family. (People think I don't or can't suffer) .
99% 4 / 85% 5 / 84% 8
I think I started as 4w3 with a lot of 8 as my protection. And have shifted to a 4w5 as I got older, more humble less aggressive.
This is crazy accurate stuff !!
Dear Tom, thank you! Finally it all makes sense. 20 years the Enneagram is part of my life, but I never truly found my place in it. For years I thought I was a 2, helping others, being influenced by their opinion and acceptance ... 4 never made sense, because I am definitely never angry, never mean, never intriguing. But self preservation 4 hits the mark. My exact words some months ago: "My feeling are too much for others and if I let them out, they cannot live with that and will abandon me" - and yes, friends have done that in the past. "I am a burden to others, if I show my true self"... Thank you again. Keep going. Your way of explaining is greatly helpful.
By the way. I am a pastor who loves helping families through the hard times of death and a funeral. Best part of my job and I am really good at it.
I am so happy about this comment. This is exactly why I do what I do. Blessings!