Box vs. panel speakers, some things to think about
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- The Audiophiliac ponders the advantages and disadvantages of each type of speaker. If you like my daily video please consider
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Thanks for a most descriptive explanation - I very much like your hush-hush wispering about the cost's
of making/producing box contra panel . . THANKS A LOT
One of the first audiophile speakers I heard were some big Magnepan's back in the early 1980s. It made such in impression on me that no matter what box speaker I hear, it never quite gives me the same feeling as a panel speaker. Later I heard Martin Logan and like them but not enough to buy them. Then I found some used Acoustat 1+1 electrostatics in the late 1990s, bought them, and they are still my speaker today. I still love them and will repair them when they get to that point. I am content and have no desire to change my speaker.
I'm running 2 Rel subs with my Maggies and I'm beyond satisfied. Best of both worlds. In the morning and evening hours I leave them off and the Maggies still sound very good.
I am mulling over a setup like that. What amp you running?
First time I heard panel speakers, was the first time I felt like I was listening to the band and singer in the same room with me. That experience Never left me. Couple years ago, bought 1.7i's. Love them.
Fully agree. Love my 1.4's. 😍
I had Apogees for decades until I heard Vivid Audio speakers, which have the openness of planers but the impact kick of dynamic speakers.
Thanks for your comments, Steve. I've owned Magnepan panels (1.5R) for many years powered by Adcom monoblocks. The speakers are placed in a relatively small room with hardwood floors, about 2 feet away from wall "notches" in front of a bay window (drapes closed). The sound stage becomes very large with orchestral music and rock, but remains intimate for chamber and solo vocal. Not quite as nice some box speakers I've owned in the past, but they are exceptional for most of the music I listen to.
I appreciate your comment.
I listen to the same types of music and I was wondering if the Magnepan 0.7i would be a good fit for me.
I am going to do a 90 minute audition of this model at a local hifi shop tomorrow.
I have never owned panel speakers. I have stuck with B&W for 30 years but I am ready for a change as my tastes in music have changed.
My livingroom/ listing room is small to medium in size...approximately
16x12x9 feet.
IYO, do you think the 1.7i loudspeakers will work well for me sonically in my space?
I will be powering them them with 400 watts per channel into 4 ohms.
I appreciate any info you can provide
Thanks.
Di
The first time I heard a panel speaker, I was in college. The owner of a high end audio store in Huntington Beach CA (early 80's) had me sit down in front of these huge flat monoliths sitting out in the room. No idea what they were. The music was astounding. Like nothing I had heard before (my older brother had ESS AMT-1Bs which I listened to daily).
Fast forward 15 years and I listened to a pair of Vandersteen's then a pair of Apogee Stages. I was not an audiophile, but my friend and the salesman asked me to explain what I heard. "The sound of the box speakers was coming at me - it was in my face. The sound of the Stages was over there." I have never owned a pair of box speakers since. Apogee Centaurs came home (along with a Muse sub) and were replaced eventually with a pair of Martin Logan SL3s that I have had for over 20 years. I wouldn't say they "rock", but vocals and the presence of the music is so palpable and immersive, I don't care.
I have had a pair of Acoustat Model 1 panels 12x96 inches with passive subwoofer for 30 years. The still sound great and I get incredible pleasure listening to them, mostly classical but really every genre of music. I recently bought a pair of box speakers, used Gold Monitors to set up a home theater system in my downstairs because I heard some at a friend’s house. I added a powered subwoofer and they sound great. I was in love listening to them for 3 months. When I went back upstairs to listen again to my 30 year old Acoustats, I was reminded how clear and lifelike they are, and how big the soundstage is. I have to admit there is some detail in the ‘box” speakers I may not hear in the panels, but for the sheer pleasure of listening for hours on end to great music, the electrostatics are amazing.
I am a long serving audiophile, My ear,ier speakers were Bozak's circa 1955 thru 1965. then I heard Maggies, I have progressed through Mg2"s Tympani 1-C's to my current Tympani IV's purchased in 1984 and still playing marvelously. Since I am now in the "fixed income" stage of life i am not in the market, If I were I would be getting a Pair of 30.7's! Maggies are difficult to place require a hefty amp, but when I listen to box speakers of any price range I cant wait to get home! I also favor linear tracking!
Great video as always, I have just heard my first Maggies today the 3.7i and they seemed to be very "REAL" in their presentation and rawness of how the music is presented. These ones had 2 REL subs with them and that helped their lower end, where I feel they did struggle in accurate base reproduction. The sound as opposed to my floorstanders and 2 S/812 RELs was more open and airy compared to my system, but at the same time the maggies felt to be a little bit thinner in their sound, the soundstage was deep and beautiful, but very similar to what I've experienced from old TEAC LS210 vintage speakers out from the wall 4-5 foot, depth of image was about the same, but more holographic than the maggies... I think the Maggies would be a very acquired taste, I felt that I couldn't wait to hear my box speakers again and that something was "missing" from the maggies, despite them being absolutely awesome, just not for me at this point in my audiophile journey.
One way to improve the bass with panel speakers is to stiffen the back panel with stout aluminium angle;pairs top to bottom plus feet extended backwards about 2 feet then angled struts bolted to the back edge and attached half way up the vertical strengtheners.You will immediately notice a smoother more solid bass response plus a more focused sound stage.Even the Apogee speakers,which are noticeably more robustly made than Magnapans,benefit from this treatment.
BRATWURST1
I am developing a similar system based on
the same principles. Like a camera if the panel vibrates the result is unfocused
As for bass how could the panel push all that air and not have to push back against something
ITT must be anchored
The results are amazing
I’m listening to my 17i it’s a qualitative leap
I’m using Schiit Vidar mono blocks with awesome results
Loved my magnapans with oak rails and beige cloth. Just sounded amazing and you could hear instrument placement like no other. I ran 400 watts a channel Adcom to these and they sounded fantastic. I had to add a sub to make the experience truly amazing.
I enjoyed a pair of Apogee Duetta Signatures for about 16 yrs. I bought them nearly new from the family of an audiophile who had passed away in '91. I had heard a pair briefly in a stereo shop in SF about '89 & had never forgotten the experience. I paired them with a pair of 10" Hsu Research subs - very satisfying! I drove them with dbx's massive BX1 because they did dip to around 2 ohms, but with nearly 1000 watts /channel @ 2 there was never a problem. I sold them before leaving CA as moving them was a bear!
Steve,
This is one talk that I completely agree on. My first encounter with electrostatic speakers was the Dayton Wright Mk IIIs that I previewed back in the 70s with Mark Wright while drinking coffee and eating some freshly baked gourmet cake at the Audio Guild in Hohokus, NJ. The whole experience was amazing, but I was struck by the realization that the speakers faded away and I was left with only the music. Not being able to afford these, they left a deep impression on me.
For several years, I toyed with all sorts of esoteric DIY speaker projects including time-alignment placement, zero phase shift crossovers, folded diaphragm tweeters, side-firing woofers but none captured that sound. One day in the early 2000s my wife decided that my beloved time-aligned pot-belly shaped speakers had to go when she re-did the living room. I figured it was time to check out EL panels again. So I canvased the offerings for months and drove hours just to audition them. Unfortunately, none of these matched how I remembered them until I heard the Sound Labs full-range ELs and I could even the smell of coffee and cake. These were too expensive for my wife as well as too big for the LR so I shelved my search. Then I found an online EL enthusiast forum and was convinced to build a hybrid transmission line woofer and EL panel speaker. So, I picked up Larry Sanders book on EL design and after many, many man-hours of computation and labor they were done. I was really pleased with the result, so I wrote my experience in an AudioXpress article. Since then Larry has started two speaker companies that developed hybrid EL designs. Since the woofers aren't made anymore and I've had to re-foam them recently I suspect that my next pair will be one of his.
Hi Gary, I would love to read that article you wrote for AudioXpress, do you know where I could find it?
You should have divorced…..
When Steve talks about sound I listen.
When Paul McGowan talks about electronics I listen.
When Paul McGowan talks about sound I roll my eyes.
I’ve listened to magnepans many times, and I love them...they sound great to me sitting in the sweet spot, by I’ve always thought the sweet spot was very small. I want a group of people listening that all hear great sound.
Lanny Lippold Beveridge Model 2.
Tweeters on the outside
Had some Martin Logan Montis for a while and loved them at first, but they really suck for rock music. Don't let anyone fool you that they've "solved" the integration between woofer and panel. I now have Focal Sopra 2's and guess what: they are JUST as open and transparent sounding as the Logans but their integration of woofers and overall coherence and dynamics are way, way beyond what Martin Logan is doing.
I do think that some of the lower priced ML's and Maggies are fantastic value though; you don't get that kind of openness from traditional box speakers until you step up in price with really well designed cabinets and drivers. Once you can get the best of all worlds (openness/dynamics/coherence) from box speakers they really set themselves apart.
I have had many pairs of Maggies and I have had Quads esl63 , and of course many box speakers. I love them all. Right now I have a set of LRS + and a set of older 1.7s and mgmc. No I am not a multi channel guy but I do have a few systems. I also have a system with tube amps and Totem model 1 signature. Sometimes I feel like a nut sometimes I don’t. LOL.
I've had both boxed and dipoles, each can sound exceptionally good when the designs play to their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Presently I have a 2+2 system where the mids and highs are handled by dynamic drivers mounted on open baffles placed 4 feet into the room (dipole), and the low end is handled by two closed box woofers in cabinets along the wall behind the dipoles. This way, I get the best of both worlds, the openness from 300hz up, and a solid, tight bass in the nether regions. One drawback, the setup requires two stereo amps and an active crossover.
I tested the waters with some used MMGs then almost immediately jumped to the 1.7. I love the Magnapans open, airy, lightning quick and unconstrained sound.
When I got divorced in 2005, I had to sell my beloved Paradigm Studio 100s and SVS subwoofer. I was looking for an inexpensive pair of speakers under $600, but still an audiophile-type of product, as a downgrade. I ended up ordering a pair of MMGs direct from Magnepan. I'll never forget the very first moment I heard the sound come off the panel. My mom was battling breast cancer at the time, and I had moved home to help care for her. I asked her to choose the first track I played on the MMGs, and she chose a track off her favorite Elvis CD. We fired it up and were both immediately in awe. I actually liked them *better* than my Studio 100s right out of the gate. Not only for music, but they also became my favorite speakers for movies. They bring a sense of realism and detail to movie soundtracks that I'd never experienced before, and when you add in a subwoofer to handle the low end, it's just an incredible experience. I currently have 3.6Rs, and have been enjoying them for nine years. I can't imagine ever being without Maggies again.
I've heard more people rant about Magnepans over the years than any other speakers but as a basshead, I'd have to get a sub to go with them, oh, and it would all cost a shitload of money which I don't have
I've always been fascinated by the thought of owning Maggies but just am such a tower speaker man. I also own Paradigm Studio 100s. I just never wanted to get involved with a sub woofer. Also, I have two cats and my stereo is shut up in a room probably too small for Maggies. I can just picture my cats using them for scratching posts!
Steve, as a longtime owner of Maggie MMGs, I understand their allure, but ultimately replaced them due to the lack of low end punch. What puzzles me is why the surface area argument, so convincing for the tweeter, doesn't hold up for the woofer in a panel speaker. I'd think one would get a real gut punch from that kind of surface area. As always thanks for your insights!
@@carewser I'm running Maggies with a sub. It really is the best of both worlds. By assigning all the low bass energy to the sub, you free up lots of power to drive the Maggies with less effort. You get improved dynamics and very low distortion. I have some great box speakers for my home theater but for serious music listening the Maggie/sub combination is unbeatable unless you spend multiple thousands of dollars.
Nothing but pure pleasure and enjoyment from my Magnepan 3.7i's in my dedicated listening room. I derive great pleasure in sharing this experience with family and friends alike.
Gary Hilbolt What's amp(s) are pushing your 3.7i?
adam brown I'm driving them with a McIntosh mc402. I'm very happy with that kind of power. My pre-amp is a McIntosh c2600.
Gary Hilbolt That is the kind of power they demand I keep finding. #Maggies. One day I hope to have a pair myself in a big enough good room for them, with the appropriate level of power, but I would like to see tubes glowing. #BobCarver
Gary Hilbolt Sweet! #Maggies #McIntosh
adam brown Ya'll can't beat the "tube" sound of the C2600. Down the road I'd like to sell the amp and install a pair of McIntosh MC 2301's, for my ultimate system. But this current set-up really makes phenomenal music.....
I’ve owned Maggies for many years and love them. Currently own the 3.6/R which replaced Sonus Faber Grand Pianos. I may again own box speakers, but not anytime soon :)
One thing Steve didn't mention which I find extremely important is value for the money. Nobody wants to feel like they spent more than they should have for their equipment. All I've ever read about speakers such as the Magnepan 20.7s is even though they cost almost $15,000, they are as good or better than many box speakers costing $30,000 to $50,000. I'm willing to pay $15,000 for speakers that get me something that sounds as good as $50,000 box speakers.
My lord... what i would give to even have a listen to, nevermind have at my disposal all those headphones in the background.
My friend you are a very inspirational character.
Thank you my friend.
Thanks!
Steve Guttenberg Audiophiliac, Please go through your headphone collection :)
Douglas Schlegel that would be very cool!
Douglas Schlegel Agreed!
"Christmas Tree" of headphones. It is the season to kickback and listen to the music
I remember my first time. First time hearing a panel speaker, lol. Floored me!
I have owned a pair of Maggie 1.6QRs for about 15 years after owning box speakers. I have thought about buying some box speakers but the allure of the Maggies is spellbinding for me personally. There is a realism that for me cannot be duplicated with any other type. If I do leave my Maggies it will probably be to some electrostatics.
I agree completely. Magnepans have "ruined me" for almost every other box speaker out there. I'm always hearing the cabinet resonance now. The only two exceptions thus far have been DeVore Fidelity and RSL (Rogersound Labs). Both of those lines are quite transparent, but still can't compare to the Maggies in terms of my taste.
Fully agree. I own a pair of Magnepan 1.4. Never have heard speakers before, that come even close to this experience, regardless of price. My former Tannoy Monitor Red 15" in big York boxes were nice. But in terms of connecting me with the music, no contest. Downside of course, the Maggies strengths depend very much on the correct placement in the room, the appropriate amplification and source material of the highest caliber! 😲
The first time I heard Magnepan speakers I knew that It was the sound I wanted from a hifi setup. I even like the way It reproduce bass.
I think your on point in regards to Magnapans , they’re awesome .. and speaking of panel speakers I’m about to make a few DML’s myself!
I mounted my 4" coaxial drivers on an angle and the drivers are 1/4" above the speaker hole instead of right on the hole. And I also made (shallow geometry) whizzer cones that sound more airy than the really steep ones we see on most drivers. These 3 innovations made the best voice sound I have ever heard in a speaker! Airy floating voice sound with an image to drool over. They are box speakers (not quite in the box) that sound like planars, and some of he sound does come out the rear of the speaker with my 30 degree semi omni setup. That also helps in the airy voice sound. Also an extra woofer below for more bass and so the med cone doesn't excurt too much for clearer sound. But there is some bass in the coaxiials for a good point source image. :)
A member of our club has Maggie 3.7i's. They sound incredible. I wish I had enough space for a pair.
Have been enjoying Apogee Stages 26 years. Every time I get the upgrade itch, nothing comes close in conveying the emotion of music vs these wonderful ribbons. Saved me a lot of $$$!
WOW! This video of yours gives me an optical illusion.
The albums on the shelf behind your head are moving inwards when I am looking at you, anyone else????
Great video by the way! I have been enjoying learning about panel speakers, thanks for introducing me to the subject
Love my Maggie 1.7i's...I like what you said...they have a way to "energize" a room. I will say that that they are so good, they are overwhelming at times and I wonder what the experience would be like to downsize to MMG's.. my stereo store refused to sell me the . 7's !! I couldn't believe it..."You'll miss the Bass"...oftentimes, I am totally unmoved by the presence of bass...it's b.s....I'm a classical and jazz listener. Good stuff, Steve! Keep it up! You're educating many an audiophiliac!
Francis Rosselli I did the same but when opportunity came up I switched to !&W 802D2s but still miss that Maggie sound.
Thanks for your thoughts on box vs panel speakers. The analysis was quite simplistic in that it didn't address any allocation of the purchase price toward overhead, marketing, R&D, etc. I suspect that these cost components differ widely across manufacturers and greatly influence the cost of audiophile speakers.
Sure they do have those expenses,, but if the company builds cabinets in-house -- some do, some don't -- those extra material and labor costs, and factory space are always going to be higher for manufacturers of box speakers than they are for panel speakers.
But your statement about box speakers using cheaper drivers is only true if you’re referring to Bose.
I seen 1-1.25” Be tweeters in the range of over $550/ea.
And I’ve never heard any panel speaker I liked better than a quality box speaker, in side by side comparisons.
And as far as the sound of a speaker filling a large room. I’ve never heard anything better than a mid-1950’s JBL Paragon.
Very helpful! Would love to hear more thoughts on speaker placements...
My first experience with dipole plan our speakers was with the Carver amazing‘s. I now own a pair of Martin Logan impressions. They have door 8 inch woofers with an active amplifier. They are not lacking in the base department. That being said I have 2SBS 16 ultras sealed box. Transition in the low Low frequencies is very spotty with in fact seamless in my opinion. I don’t think it said it as a trade off to have planners. The trick is to have good sub Wolfers to work in concert with them
I've had bipolar towers before about a foot or two from the wall. I had some issues with reverb but nowhere near as bad as my Maggie MMG when they're the same distance from the wall. I need to bring it out at least 4 feet before the reverb mostly disappears. But man does it sound so open when it's in that position. I feel like I'm wearing open back headphones to 11 😁
I upgraded the crossover my Magnepan 1.7 with much superior parts and added a SVS SB13-Ultra subwoofer in my large room for both music and home theater enjoyment. I have not heard any system better than this for 3-5x the money. So real, so organic. Yes I also have yearly subscriptions to the symphonies and jazz performances and have been audiophile for decades.
I've been running a pair of Acoustat 2+2s for a couple of decades now, and thirty-two square feet of transducer yields pretty terrific sound... except as pointed out here, the bass is never as 'punchy' as a big old woofer cone.
had a pair ,transformed them into model 4 because it could'nt fit with the ceiling, i was driving them with krell krs 100 never had any problem with bass, best control you can get:)in pure classe a!
Thanks Steve. This was a great comparison/explanation. I like all of the Maggie’s and have heard many panel speakers. The limitations you mentioned plus the overpowering of a room was why I chose my Dahlquist DQ 10’s plus subwoofer. Also they are not in a box, and are a six way system with subwoofer. I imagine “cost “ is why almost everything is a 3 way system these days. I auditioned speakers back then with records I brought by Weather Report and Return To Forever and the DQ 10’s didn’t smear the sounds of this complicated music.
I am in the market for a pair of speakers and this video summarized the dilemma quite well. I love the way maggies present acoustic music. But I listen to both classical and rock. One potential solution I am considering is the Spatial M3 speakers. They are open baffle but with two 15" cone woofers. Very efficient. The fully upgraded Triode Master version even has a dipolar compression driver. Some say it has the great qualities of Maggies while also having real bass punch and slam. Can also be paired effectively with lower power tube amps. May do an in home trial of these.
I'd get the Maggies and a good pair of sealed subs. You can position the subs independently of the speakers and get ideal results, and you can also turn them on for rock and turn them off for classical (since a dynamic woofer will color the sound).
I also find that the very biggest Maggies have enough bass slam for rock. I have an old (30+ years) pair of Tympani IVA's and they're good to 25 Hz and do chest thumps. I could get a bit more bass with subs but really, with that kind of bass I don't feel the need.
Super valid point. Ported, sealed or TL speakers are in general pressure sources, whereas the panel speakers are velocity sources. When you place the boxed speakers in your listening room, you have to stay away from the pressure maximums of the room modes, panel speakers have to live in the velocity maximums of the mode shapes. For example, every room mode has a pressure maximum close to the walls and at the corner, all the room modes have a pressure maximum. When you place a boxed speaker at the corner, base notes become too boomy. Where there is a pressure maximum, there is a velocity minimum, so by the side of the walls, there will always be a velocity minimum. This is the reason why the panel speakers do not like to live close to the walls. The common saying about them "they have to breath" may be originating from the fact that, they need to be placed away from the walls, that makes most wifes upset, seeing a 6 foot 5 "room dividers" in the middle of their living room, that you claim as a listening environment. Some come semi-transparent though if you would like to use it as an internal sales pitch :D
This was so cool how you compared panels to box, and get that box does a thing and panel does a thing, it was cool
Thanks Steve! EXCELLENT topic and I learned something new thanks to you.
I've had numerous box speakers as well as Maggie 2.5R's and Quad ELS63's. Both with heaps of room to set up properly. All gone and very happy now with my JBL 4301B's plus passive sub.
I have a pair of .7 Maggies and a pair of KEF LS50's and I think they both sound great for different reasons. I can't say I prefer one over the other.
And then there's box or transmission line - would be interesting to do a video on that.
Both can be great but I prefer panels (M.L.'s) for the clarity and live presence they produce. Match them with really good sealed subs and you'll probably never want to go back to box speakers. I've had Revel's, B&W's N.H.T's , Klipsch RP's and Monitor Audio's and the panels just sound better overall for both music and movies.
Thanks, Steve. You also have full-range, crossoverless speakers like Fostex and SEAS in elaborate folded horns - a whole different ball of wax - and then you have Klipschorns which are in a world distinct from all others.
I adore my ten Audio Power Labs Class A Lundahl Class A Tube Amps ! People have no Idea of this exquisite ,delicate and Powerful Amplificadores! It Could be the exuberant Price!?
I love my OHM Walsh speakers. I hear the large room filling sound, they can be exciting to listen to, and horns and pianos sound great. To me they do a lot of things well and are all I need.
What amp, pre do you pair it with?
@@drakeforte5 i've tried several with them but my favorite combo with the Ohms is my Crown xls 2502 + Schiit Freya w/ NOS RCA 6SN7GTB using Mogami Gold XLRs. The Ohms really benefit from loads of power.
@@i.dig.wax.5805 tx. I'm going to try the crown amp. I got an older parasound hca 1500 but it seems something is missing.. it is too polite.. want some bite.. or brightness.
Parasound p5. I also have a cheap tube bufferred dac in front of the pre
Even with the tube bypassed the sound is still too polite or missing details. Might be time to upgrade the amp
I'm building a panel speaker set for my voice over studio/man cave. I have a deep voice and I want to hear the low end without too much bass resonance. I tend to boom out of box speakers. It sounds great to most people, but it's not true fidelity. I want to record audio books, not monster truck promos.
I definitely noticed what you said about placement. I followed a tutorial on UA-cam and built two 2x2 foot foam-board panel speakers. They really do sound great until you hang them on the wall, then they sound like tinny $4 tape players. I spent a few bucks and got two shelf brackets to hold them away from the wall. My plan is to put acoustic foam on the wall, have the bass panel in between and behind the two midrange/tweeters held off the wall by a foot. I hope it looks and sounds great, but it could come off kludgy. Worse come to worse, I'm out $50. Thank you for your insight and words of wisdom.
I wish I would have room so they don't stand out, but the sound from Magnepan are like no box speaker. The clarity and imaging are great. I settled for Monitor Audio Silver RX8, and those are ok for my home theater set up. I still want to get a pair of Magnepan.
Regarding panel speakers. Keep in mind that there are different types and they sound quite different too. 'Planar magnetic' designs like Magnepan despite appearances operate nothing like electrostatic panels nor do they sound the same. The best stats are still more transparent than any planar magnetics though the gap is narrowing. The moving diaphragm of an electrostatic is considerably lower in mass and therefore accelerates faster than any other type (ionic discharge tweeters excepted)... and an electrostatic diaphragm is driven over it's entire surface area unlike planar magnetics and cone/dome speakers.
Big fan of open baffles myself which are in the family. A lot of bang for your DIY buck especially when having a good sub for the bottom octave and a half.
I was deeply enthralled everytime I got to listen to the brilliant and now out of business models of Apogee Acoustics, especially the larger models and when driven by Krell monoblocks. They were beyond my budget, sadly. But they were thrilling.
I have heard lots and lots of high end speakers i heard the kef and bought the lot they are astonishing and awsome looking
Steve - this is a good contrast but how will anyone know how a panel dipole sounds in their room if they cant afford electrostats like your Maggies? I will tell you how - DML panels with exciters - with some DSP EQ and perhaps a open baffle LF driver or sub. I challenge ANY box speaker to equal that musicality for anywhere near the same price - a legion of DML experimenters can verify this. How about less than $500 for amazing musicality.
My feelings about the two kinds are just what you said.
Steve, I strongly suspect that this is a big reason for the popularity of kit speakers, but I wont discount the effort put into crossover design or the design of said box. The first time I saw a fullrange speaker (large box, single driver) on 6Moons I couldn't believe the asking price - several thousand Euro - but clearly someone is wiling to pay for whatever emerges from what is presumably a very well designed box. Thanks for the video.
I have wanted panel speakers ever since the first time that I saw them in a HIFI magazine about 30+ years ago. as a kid it blow my mind that a speaker could look like a room divider and still make great sound. I never tried to buy a pair because I always thought they would be way out of my budget. Last year I was at a HIFI dealer and they had a pair of Magnepan LRS. I was shocked by the low price tag and was ready to buy them. I asked the sales guy to to let me hear them, and he spent the next 30 mins (No Joke) telling me how bad they are and that I should not waste my time. When I finally convinced him to play them for me, he left them pushed up against the wall and refused to bring them out into the room. Also he had the volume so low that I could barley hear them over the store noise (Despite the fact that my wife and I were the only ones in the store). When I asked him to turn them up he said no, because all they do is force the amps to shutdown. Even with all this I still though they sounded pretty good. I was about to buy them anyway, but then I remembered that my cats would just think they were giant scratching posts like they did with the cloth grills on my floor standing speakers. Easy fix with the floor standing speakers I just got rid of the grills, not so much with the LRS. In the end I decided to pass, but still one day I will have a pair.
One thing not mentioned is that at least some box speakers are relatively child (and grand children) friendly.
My buddy who got me into true HiFi had Magnepan 1.6Qi..and they blew my mind. I own apogee slant 6's hoping that the ribbon magic with the 6 inch mid would scratch my heavy mid bass obsession, I've come to the conclusion that I need to get Magnepans and probably a solid boxed speaker and just make use of the A/B buttons on my amp
Hi Steve,great channel,I have a pair of ESL63, in a small room,but... I have made wide-range bass traps behind them(also a matching pair opposite end of my rooom) and carefully placed diffusers,they are only 2ft away from the wall,toed in etc,and they are ,believe it or not, kick ass on the low end super low and tight,and the imaging is just real and airy ,different league to domes,
the dust covers I did myself you have to be really meticulous on stretching them just right but the reward is no rattles on the low stuff and really fast transients . I still love well designed box speakers too.
Steve Guttenberg Audiophiliac - really enjoyed this post of yours. I've had Maggies in the past and whether or not they are THE most accurate speaker out there may be debatable (I happen to think they are SUPERB in that area), they sure were the most FUN to listen to. The only note of respectful dissent I have with you is when you said that box speakers have quicker bass. I think that Magneplanars win in bass speed - a product of their ultra light diaphragm - much lighter than just about any woofer material (that goes into a box) out there. In terms of visceral impact however, the boxes win IF well designed and executed. I'll take the Maggie "short coming" (if that's what we have to call it) anytime. Thanks and happy listening to you and all!
I have been a fan of the Maggie’s for decades. Regrettably I’ve never had a room suitable for them. Currently I have a three point system of Golden Ears wall mounts and a powered sub. They’re enjoyable enough but they don’t have the breathiness that I enjoy.
Pannel speakers for hi hz and combined with box lo hz. Is the best sound ... is the conclusion of what i hear ... at least for home situation....
I would have thought that given the wider area of agitation of air on a panel speaker, along with as you said the agitation behind it, this would create more "natural/room" reverb which would be less good for long periods of listening as our brain would have to constantly interpret mixed/delayed waves (unless I guess we'd be in some perfectly tailored room for them).
I love my MGIII's, but as Magnapan has declined to repanel them yet again, I will soon have to replace them. Can fantasize about 30.7's. I still have a 40 year old pair of KEFs in my den which I like and a pair of PSBs at my condo which I am not so fond of, but as I have to keep the volume down there, it doesn't matter too much.
Hi Steve. I think you hit the nail here. First of all I’m a music lover, no doubt. I’m also a musician and I have a fairly good idea of how instruments, voices etc are sounding in real life. I have gone from box speakers such as Focal, Infinity kappa and so forth. Very good box speakers as I see it and I really enjoyed them. I have also had a pair of Maggie’s and Martin Logan’s and personally I have to admit that panel speakers bring something extra to the table if you have the room for them to play in. Nevertheless box speakers seems to be most of the audiophile high end reviewers favorites. Why? I really don’t get it. Nowadays I have a pair Martin Logan’s with powered woofers and that is really something extra. I get the transparency, detailed and lively sound and at the same time the punch and bottom end sub Sonics. With my experiences from sound and music I hear and feel something close to reality and I enjoy music.
What is the sonic differences of Martin Logans vs Magnepans?
Hi, hard to tell because the room always plays in. Both are really revealing, fluent and shimmering but I would say Magnepans, at least for me, where a bit softer than Martin Logans. With that I mean slightly more laid back if you know what I mean. If you compare Maggies with the newer ML's containing a 200w amp in each speaker driving the dynamic woofer I would say you really need a separate subwoofer with Maggies in order to compete with ML's.
Thanks for the info Steve. I'm going to audition a pair of Magnepans. I had the pleasure of knowing someone who bought a pair in the late 80's and they sounded terrific! Can only imagine what the newer models sound like now.
@Jeff Spicolli No. I ended up getting Atlantic Technology 4200 and 3200 speakers to use in my home theater setup.
Never thought I would converse with Jeff Spicolli!! Lol
I wouldn't mind owning panel speakers, but there are a few issues. First they are very wide and tall and just stares back at anybody in the living room. Second, many say you have to place them well into the room to avoid the back wave from interfering the front wave. Many say 5 ft forward or 1/3 the length of the room. I guess if you are single or have your own dedicated music room it's not an issue. If you are married it can be a hard case to make.
Yeah, that is a problem. You can get away with 3' forward though 5' or even more is better. You can also mark the floor and pull them out for serious listening. You could also consider the Magnepan .7 which is designed for small spaces (you might want to use them with a sub) or the on-wall Maggies that attach to your wall and can be folded back when not in use.
True enough. People enter my living room, see the big electrostatics and ask, "Are those speakers??"
t - You can mark the carpet for "playing positions" then move the panels up against the walls when not in use.
Used to own Maggie 1.7i. The sound stage is exactly 4feet 7 inches high off the ground. They're good for classical music. They ended up being more hassle than they were worth, so I sold them.
I loved my Martin Logans (I wish I still had them) but cost is a lot more urgent for me now, so I built my own box speakers. There is no better value than DYI and boxes are better for the type of music I listen to now. I have reverted to my younger listening choices.
This is why I have the Duevel Jupiters. The room gets filled with sound, all around you. They have way more bass than the Martin Logans I auditioned.
I had a pair of Carver Amazing's and EVERYONE would be amazed at how "big" the sound was. This was years ago and my kids knocked one over playing hide and seek, so more conventional speakers were necessary. So being used to this sound ,every other box speaker sounded flat and lifeless,non-3 dimensional. I researched and discovered Mirage at Tweeter and was happy again. They say you lose the pinpoint imaging, but I never sat and listened, I was always doing something being a young parent. I still have them in my basement and when I workout(once a year!) I still love the sound.
Were these the M1's? Tremendous speaker !
I like the sound of JBL's 2420 compression drivers (1.75") sans the horns. I use Transylvania Power Company's The Tube (Karlson couplers) to load the drivers and provide dispersion. They don't have the nasal horn sound, and allow the tweeter drivers to be in phase with the midrange and woofer drivers. I also upgraded the original dome/surrounds from "spiral" to "diamond."
I prefer panel speakers for chamber music and some folk, but enclosures for orchestral, jazz and rock.
I heard a pair of GIANT monsoon "panel speakers" ( 4X12" fwd, 4X12 rwd and full strip of mid and "high" ribbons up side of front. $8K 2nd hand. WOW!)
Besides box and panel, there are also open baffle speakers i.e. dynamic boxless speakers which are dipoles.
His comment about the high end coming out of a small tweeter makes sense to me. I have a pair of older Martin Logans and the high end can be magical. However they are old Sequel II's and the bass is terrible. Another thing about panel speakers is that they are difficult to drive. If you want to rock, they don't quite have the impact. I have been considering maybe some Tekton speakers such as the Double Impact with their honeycomb tweeter/mid array. Also you don't need 400 WPC to drive at realistic levels because they are very efficient. I have heard great things about them but they are mail order and I cannot listen to them.
I've heard panels, mostly Magnepan, and I love them. I have always wanted a pair. Partially just because the fundamental design structure is different from boxed dynamic cone drivers. I'm sure if I ever do get some, I'll figure out exactly what I don't like about them, but it's a knowledge I will love to attain. Like anything in HiFi, speakers and headphones in particular, it seems certain models and styles work better on certain recordings and styles of music than others. I bet there are a lot of things I would prefer to hear on panel speakers over boxes. Sometimes it's even nice to switch just to hear the differences. I already pick and choose between monitor style, bookshelf and tower speakers depending on what kind of music I want to play.
I think panel speakers are best with acoustical music, since they have a naturalism that reasonably affordable boxes just don't. For rock, I think I'd just get dynamics since they play louder and have more bass slam. But I think a good compromise is panels plus subs that you can use when listening to rock or doing home theater.
Great video. So, using your philosophy, if the cost of the dynamic drivers, crossovers is $6000, the speaker with the box will cost $24000. Whereas, an electrostatic with $6000 in drivers and crossovers, etc would be $8000. Shipping cost is less and probably manufacturing costs are less for the electrostatics as well. Never thought about that but makes good sense.
The issue is not box vs panel , but box vs open baffle or dipole. Panel speakers are electrostats or magnetostats . And they are also dipoles . But a dipole need not be an electrostat or magnetostat . Consider e.g. the Jamo R900 . Your best option to build a truly perfect dipole with constant directivity is to build it with all electrodynamic drivers for bass and mids , and a dipole magnetostat for the tweeter . That way you can control the width of the "baffle" in each frequency band so that dispersion remains in a perfect figure of 8 throughout most of the frequency range (say 20Hz to 8 Khz). No panel speaker can achieve that . The hottest trend in dipoles on the DIY audio forum is actually building such a naked dipole with only an H-frame "baffle" for the bass and no baffle at all for mid and high
Thanks what I was wondering is if you glued mini strong magnets into the bottom of the panel speaker and had maybe a wooden base with reverse polarity magnets glued to it. screw 4 eye hole screws in to the sides and placed two long metal or wood rods through the eyes of the screws and drilled two holes in to the wood base. that way the panels could just float on the magnetic cushion freely. What so you think. I would build one or two but it seems trying to buy those 40 watt are all out of stock everywhere.
What sound like a panel and to my surprise weren't are the Dahlquist DQ-10! I was amazed at its presentation, realism and depth of image!
I haven't heard such "romanticism" from a loud speaker since?
I've heard Maggies, and they didn't do what those DQ-10s did!
Unfortunately, neither handle aggressive music to realistic listening volume. Albeit, Rock, Fusion or Electronica with that "you are there" satisfaction gets missed.
My impression with panels was like listening to a live performance through an open window or portal? The window is the constriction!
Box speakers like the Wilson's Watt Puppies, for example takes you to "ground zero"!
Speed, impact, dynamic range isn't present with panels or electro-static speakers. They signal gets compressed lossing music's drama and emotion. Bass, the foundation just gets way too "politically correct"! Aka boring.
I find the effect similar in the headphones as well.
I'll make an exception there with headphones, and Stax is the exception! They do it best. No need to move air you can physically feel in your gut.
That's why you need both.
The best solution is large dipole planar magnetic panels paired with open bafflle active servo-subwoofers - best of both worlds. That way you get a uniform dipole radiation pattern. The only issue is that large dipoles need plenty of room to breath as you pointed out Steve.
Don't forget to mention sealed/ported enclosure omnidirectionals. they potentially have the benefits of both types.
I'm sold, going to grab some of those Maggi LRS speakers, entry level and will fit in my space. The .7 is actually too tall for my space in regards to tucking them out of the way. Should have them by June, and maybe a couple of Emotiva PA-1 300 Watt into 4 ohm mono blocks to drive them... How are these going to sound with a class D amp, I wonder? Or maybe two Schiit Audio Vidar amps... I think the Emo amps will be the bomb with their 100% Bang & Olufsen internals.
I've always wanted a large pair of Quads (it should be law to own a pair of Quads at some point in your hi-fi journey!) but my room isn't the right shape, so hopefully one day I'll get somewhere I can have a pair.
it really IS quite an intriguing proposition i admit! i've never owned electrostatics but certainly heard them and was beguiled - but always owned 'box' speakers like transmission lines mostly - i AM curious but dont' really have $30K to throw at amplifiers!
's various elemens of sound production will matter in accordance to what sonically is pleasing to the customer. I imagine a panel speaker sounds open and ambient. I think I might like that but I am not sure how dispursed and diluted (?) therefore that is like.
Hifif retail is dead here in Alaska. I won't be able to hear any panel speakers until I travel to a city that actually has a hifi store. I have to say, having never heard a panel speaker, I am very intrigued!! I run Klipsch Heresy III speakers because I am familiar with their reputation and I was able to get a near new set on craigslist but I have no idea what modern hifi can sound like. :( Nice conversation Steve!
The cymbal? How about the microphone that captured it?
The diaphragm used to capture it does not require the size to reproduce it. Smaller omni directional diaphragms have an advantage at higher frequencies
When you are talking about "box" speakers not having a diffuse soundstage, I hope you are NOT including the Polk Audio Signature Reference Series SDA box systems. These speakers use proprietary arrays to cancel "inter aural cross talk" to create a sound stage that extends beyond the ends of the speakers. These speakers, which stand 66inches tall and weigh 185lbs each, produce a sound stage that has to heard to be believed. Among other attributes of these units are, bass response that goes to the BOTTOM (-7db @ 12hz) with distortion that matches a GOOD valve amplifier. I purchased a pair of these units in 1987 for $3000/pr. I still own these (MINT) and enjoy them so much that I will keep these till I DIE. Thank you for uploading the videos, I really enjoy them.
I'm old school box speakers all the way, no replacement for displacement, panel speakers lack deep thunderous bass and are shallow and have no depth, to me anyway, subwoofer needed in most cases, if you get a big set of say Polk sda models etc., all bases are covered and you won't outperform them for the money, a strong 2 channel setup (no sub needed) dialed in correctly is all you need, good video.
Have a listen too the British built sequence range they sound quite gorgeous
I fell in love with the MG 2 in the 80s. Regretted selling them. They were easy to drive at 6ohms flat with the Phase Linear 400.
Klipschorns and LaScalas (Klipsch) use unique wood construction designs for horn loading the bass woofers.
Any chance of doing an overview of your system, and what would be the ultimate system to have for yourself.
Is my comments showing up doesn't look like it???
You didn’t mention that the panel speakers beg for a lot of wattage at a 4 ohm load, which is a big consideration as well, and requires substantial cost for the amplifier as well.
I heard a four panel set of Magepans in the 70’s at Myer-Emco in Rockville Md and was amazed at the sound that seemed to come out of nowhere. Totally out of reach for a minimum wage kid at that time, but they “allowed” my friends and I to hear them. Recently I was herded into the kiddie ($1500 tops) room of Gramophone after being asked how much I was willing to spend on speakers, and unimpressed by anything I heard. I left without buying anything.