Hello - before this gets any views: Please watch the video in its entirety for complete context, including my concluding thoughts. If I see a 'so, oreos are better for reducing my cholesterol???' comment, I will come to your house and frown at you disappointedly.
This is the best 😂 you win the internet for the day! Also, I'm a paramedic and watch your videos and listen to your podcast because alot of folks in Fire/EMS have metabolic disease and I like to stay ahead of it. Thank you for making your content easy to digest and deep diving and breaking studies down! You're a great presenter and teacher!
Well, actually, if I'm a LMHR with high LDL on a low-carb diet, it definitely looks like Oreos are better than statins for reducing cholesterol. And maybe, just maybe, the more healthy option given the risk factors pertaining to statins.
LMHR here, celebrating 5 years on Keto, which has given me my life back at the age of 53 🤗 I have reversed pre-diabetes and NAFLD (after 10 years!!!), I have gotten rid of all inflammation - I used to have horrible headaches, now I have not had a single headache in 5 years!!! I used to get sick all the time, now I have not been sick in 5 years!!! The state of ketosis is magic ❤️ The anxiety and depression I had suffered from since I was a child have completely disappeared ❣️ I am in much better health now at 58 than I was in my twenties!!! Dave Feldman and Nick Norwitz are geniuses, they will change the world of medicine. Because they also have the COURAGE ❣️ As opposed to others mentioned briefly in this podcast 😄
It’s becoming obvious that emerging science is now way ahead of AHA LDL guidelines. Thankfully these brave young men are not afraid of challenging the old narrative. It’s a breath of fresh air.
And how did he eat them? Did he remove the top and bottom and lick out the insides or did he just go right at - or worse yet he varied his approach! Clearly this could have caused a chain reaction effecting every part of his physiology. Maybe Nicolas could shed some light on this.
The interview format is great. Would recommend more direct questioning and synthesis of the arguments to keep the discussion framed explicitly around is being said and the limits of the ideas. More challenging questions could be interesting as well.
@@AnneAlready We could help Dr. Nick learn to sing and play ukulele. He could learn a new song everyday. When he is ready of course. What do you think?
@@fiddlerJohn LOL I am not sure about that. I do believe anyone can learn to sing and play an instrument but I feel Nicks calling may be in other directions at the moment.. Perhaps in the future? ;)
@@AnneAlready Agreed. Nick has a calling. It's working. He's making a difference. Bravo Nick. Music is how I meditate. I sense that Nick's high pressure drive could be balanced. You know, some yin with the yang. I'm so impressed by what he has done already, and he's only getting started.
Yes, any carbs will reduce cholesterol in carnivore dieters. Shawn Baker says his cholesterol went sky high, so he recommended 100g carbs in his January tweet.
@@johnhawkins3507It seems now that the 'sky high ' ldl cholesterol may , surprisingly, be protective against heart disease and other chronic illnesses , when accompanied by a ketogenic, health promoting, lifestyle .Lowering it may be akin to being less protected from such illnesses.
Nic is one of the most objective people on youtube. If there's anyone who can have a conversation with either "side", it's Nic. I think I may be starting to hyper respond. I'm watching closely as developments play out. Ultimately I want to know if I should A) not worry, or B) make small adjustments, C) make a big pivot D) something else
Everyone is caught up on the Oreos, but all I hear is that carnivore / keto raises LDL (at least in people with low BMI) to levels that are thought of as dangerously high, and introducing carbs of any kind is effective at lowering LDL. Unless we’re evaluating other markers of atherogenisis, and arguing that high LDL isn’t an independent and causative risk factor, this all seems kinda irrelevant.
The reason it's not irrelevant is that the dust hasn't settled on the role of LDL as a CVD risk factor. In fact it remains a whirling duststorm. So any ray of light that shines through the dust is definitely relevant as a point of departure for further investigation.
@@briandriscoll1480 What world do you live in? LDL is a known causal risk factor for CVD. There has been numerous meta analyses and systematic reviews which show it as such.
@@briandriscoll1480 but there is no such claim here, so there is no such ray. In fact, Dr Baker, who coined the term "carnivore diet", stated explicitly in a recent moderated debate that he makes no claim the carnivore diet is good for longevity.
@@troy3423It is known to be a causal risk factor among several other risk factors that all interplay with each other. The preponderance of evidence suggests the possibility that the entire context of not just the elevated LDL level itself, but also the etiology of that elevation and the interplay of all the factors is much more likely to inform on ASCVD risk than the LDL level itself. In short - we know it's a factor, but we don't have the whole picture, and the whole picture seems likely to be that the level itself isn't as important as the entire context. We just don't have enough data on this to warrant the absolute panic that exists right now regarding "elevated" LDL levels.
Total diversion from the podcast at hand, but I have a question. The term "lean mass hyper-responder": is that a "real" scientifically defined term, or an industry colloquialism? What exactly does it mean to be a "lean mass hyper-responder"? And why should we care?
Not a diversion at all! LDL-C ≥ 200 HDL-C ≥ 80 TG ≤ 70 mg/dl The idea is that many lean individuals who go on keto diets experience a hyper response to the combination of restricted carbs and lean body mass. That hyper response is the skyrocketing of LDL-C. These individuals can also see an acute (within days) lowering of LDL-C simply by adding carbohydrates back to their diets. I can't go over all of the nuances and intricacies of the phenomenon, as well as the lipid energy model that seeks to explain the phenomenon (Nick and Dave have plenty of videos going into it), but the implications of this model, if proven correct, are a revised understanding of human lipidemiology and lipid metabolism. Also, if this lipid energy model is correct, it adds nuances to our understanding of hyperlipidemia and its various etiologies, with a possibility that the risk for developing ASCVD is impacted by the specific context of the hyperlipidemia. That is to say, it's possible that high cholesterol in one context (from one cause) may carry a different ASCVD risk from high cholesterol in a different context (from a different cause.)
Dave coined the term to describe what he was seeing, in terms of skyrocketing LDL in the context of high HDL ("good") cholesterol and very low triglycerides. It is not a phenotype that is easily accounted for in the lipid heart model, as it turns a lot of the typical associations on their heads.
This is amazing and I am saying it as a doctor welcoming people to participate in science - I don’t want people to eat Oreos but I am so excited how community is getting involved in health science thank you
I dunno, I think Nick’s perspective of Layne Norton’s video is off base, because I thought Layne was very fair. He thanked Nick for sending the papers, he stated multiple times that this data is very interesting, it should be studied, he stated, “I don’t know what to make of this”, and that he believes this cohort is at a lower risk of atherosclerosis compared to a group of people with elevated ldl and other comorbidities like obesity and insulin resistance etc. However, he still believes they are at a higher risk compared to a cohort with all things equal, but with lower LDL. He then did talk about the takeaways from the study as being problematic. Nick is frustrated with this, but this is what the keto community was/is doing(not all, but many), even some of the pundits that Nick associates with, like Shawn Baker, who is the one who that promoted the study on a large scale. Shawn stated in a video, “If eating pure absolute garbage junk lowers your LDL cholesterol more so than even satin drugs, what does it say about the act of lowering cholesterol?”. Is that not problematic messaging? Nick is mad at Layne, but maybe he should be mad at folks like Shawn who hurts his research more than people like Layne. So Layne acknowledged the positives and also the negatives. Not sure what Nick can complain about there. I sympathize more with Nick in regard to Layne making a video instead of speaking/collaborating with Nick first, I think that’s what Nick really wanted, and I believe that would have been the better way. Nick might also be frustrated with Layne in his attempts to explain the physiology behind this subset of people, but again he acknowledged he didn’t know. Nick wants pushback, but then makes a video attacking the people pushing back, see Nick’s response video to Layne. He posts tweets demonstrating Layne as being a “patterned bully”, but Nick associates with Tro, who is the biggest bully on the internet. What do you make of that, Nick? And was Layne a bully before you wanted to collaborate with him? I get it, Nick is mad that Layne messed up explaining some of this research, but Nick could have responded in a more respectful way. He chose not to.
I can see some of your point. If Dr. Baker said something to that effect, I agree - which is why I'm often frustrated with how this data is being represented by carnivore and keto enthusiasts. I like Layne's work for the most part - he's an asset to the science based community and while I think he misses things from uncommon time to uncommon time, I think he's generally an excellent source. I'm not sure about the ins and outs of the Nick and Layne discussion, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me so long as there's a discussion of data. I think Nick and Dave did a great job contextualizing their work here, and while I don't share the frustrations about Dr. Norton that Nick does, I certainly understand the sentiment (from the other side, like the example you offered).
@@Physionic Thanks for the response. I would have sent the link of Shawn saying this, but I guess UA-cam won’t let you. If anyone is interested in where this quote came from, it’s on Shawn’s UA-cam page under the title “Eat Oreo cookies, get healthy!!” it’s a 3min40sec video. That specific quote is near the end of the video.
I tried to watch his channel, so I see what you mean. Dave seems to be more neutral in this regard and is willing to say he does not (yet) know certain things, which I can appreciate. To be fair to Nick, his words are being taken out of context alot, and his channel's messaging is different than that in his interviews with "good cop" Dave present.
You seem confused. He’s trying to cultivate a platform to present his scientific research, in a field where most people think “the science is settled”. Also, if you believe his research lacks objectivity, where lies the subjectivity???
Maybe I didn’t listen closely enough to Layne’s response, but I didn’t have the impression his response was intended to disparage the researchers, but rather to mitigate the polarization coming out of the “sides”…my main takeaway was that you can’t draw polarizing conclusions from a sample of one. Bc that is a typical response from his audience. Or at least the people who engage with him, defensively or otherwise. I’m just a student but I can’t see the fault in that argument. if I handed in a paper where I tried to support my point with a study of one, I’d be put on academic probation (and I’m in social sciences where small studies happen all the time).
More than an hour of conversation but no discussion of the actual content at hand - just a conversation about how the content has been received by the wider community.
I really like this conversation about science education because I’ve learned so much from your channel (as a non-scientist trying to figure out how to lose weight and increase health span). This actually reminds me of the work Vincent Raccaniello does with TWIV and other UA-cam channels/podcasts. He typically brings on panels of researchers to discuss topics in their fields, and I’ve learned so much about microbiology from hearing their agreements and quibbles.
Good interview. You just keep maintaining your scientific objectivity. Unlike folks like Layne Norton, who is kind of an opinionated bully, sometimes, you remain neutral and open minded. Thanks.
Nic, fantastic discussion. One quibble, in the methodology section, you didn't specify how Nick ate his Oreos (twist, crunch, one layer at a time, dunked in milk) and this cries out for some follow-up. Yes, I am kidding. But I do wonder questions about the blood work and specifically if Nick and the team measured ApoB and lipid fractionation measures? Finally, the discussion at the end on dynamism was utterly fascinating and potentially quite subversive. If testing measures for lipids are variable over very short periods, it brings into question quite a lot about diagnosis and treatment, or am I completely misunderstanding this?
I was wondering if this dynamism happens on other diets or specifically on keto. My LDL seems to have been pretty consistent over the years, but I have been on a pretty consistent diet. I'm 65, vegetarian since 1970 for about 41 years, and then vegan since 2011. LDL was 50-60 when I was in my 20s and 30s, and 80-88 now.
@@carinaekstrom1Short answer: yes, will depend more if fat-adapted or not (and this would be predicted by the LEM). If you’re trafficking more fat due to literally being fueled by it? Then don’t be surprised if the *other* major cargo in an ApoB (cholesterol) is moving up and down to track with the TG delivery dynamics. Powered more by glucose? Then probably less movement on net for those ApoB carriers.
😮Arghhh! You now have the $199 entry level to The Insiders!!! I just joined. You should talk that up a bit more Nic. Every time I watched a video I wished I could join Insiders but the pro was just out of reach for me. Glad to be a part of it now.
I deliberately stayed away from this social media splash .. but .. as you’ve now covered it, I’m diving in . I suspect this will be an entertaining hour (or so)
As someone with a PhD in I&O psych, I think a main issue underlying some of bigger platforms ignoring Nick and Dave's work is status related. Within the context of medical science/ biology, Nick and Dave both have relatively low status because of their positions within the field (Dave's general background and Nick still being quite junior). While status sometimes might be correlated with and indicative of quality of science, it often isn't at all. Yet, still the "big guys" don't take them as seriously as they should, because of their status. You see this happening over and over again in many different fields of science and practice (e.g., PhD students not getting the merit they deserve while working together with full professors, high status surgeons ignoring feedback for more low status coworkers). It clearly stands in the way of unbiased knowledge accumulation and high team performance, but alas- often people are not as rational as would be ideal.
@@nicknorwitzPhD Nick, I really am curious to learn how, exactly, this lipid energy model works. Would love to see a video with you and/or Dave explaining it, with animation, etc. Are you guys working on this?
Essentially, cholesterol and triglycerides are sent in VLDL to transport the triglycerides to the tissues. After this the VLDL turns into more cholesterol rich LDL. The idea that it's less damaging is because it has a short lifetime before recycling, and because the diet is quite anti-inflammatory and lean mass hyper responders are.. very lean and active.@@BillyBoy66
Above all, the question remains: Why is this relevant? Why should I care? Why did Nick Norwitz's colitis go into remission on a ketogenic diet? Why did my rheumatoid arthritis go into remission on a ketogenic diet? Why did my son's colitis go into remission on a ketogenic diet? What happened to Mikhaela Peterson? Why can a ketogenic diet put epilepsy in remission? Why can a ketogenic diet improve or cure mental illnesses from bipolar disorder to shizophrenia? Why are all 5 symptoms of metabolic syndrome improved by a ketogenic diet? That is the relevant question we should ask. The LMHR question only becomes relevant through another question: Why is the ketogenic diet such a powerful therapeutic intervention?
I don't think we can say that for sure. I believe that the ketogenic metabolism could work completely differently than in a metabolism that is confronted with carbohydrates and fats. All of our studies assume a metabolism that is essentially based on a diet that relies on carbohydrates for energy. The LMHR is a phenotype that only arises under a special condition: a low-carbohydrate diet. It could be that LDL is assessed differently under these conditions than under the conditions of a standard diet. Hence the question of relevance: Why should I care if it only affects a few nerds who eat like this? Well, the answer is clear: because it could be that this diet is a key to curing lifestyle diseases. If that is the case, then we would have to ask the question: Are we eating species-appropriately? Is perhaps a low-carbohydrate diet the key to health and is our sub-species-appropriate diet the reason for our catastrophic health? That is the relevant question. The other question only becomes relevant through this question.@@cattleprods911
There isn't one shred of evidence that LDL-C penetrates the epithelial wall from higher than XXX amount, let alone forms any plaque, nor is there one shred of evidence of statin benefit outside of pre-existing heat attack. While LMHR is a special case, this study pulls the rug out from under a widely accepted theory. History with judge the lipid hypothesis, as a tidal wave of data that undermines it will come.@@user-rh3js7ik2m
"Why is the ketogenic diet such a powerful therapeutic intervention?" And if it is, how can we get similar results without all the potential long term problems a ketogenic diet can have?
I love the citizen scientist idea. Their group showed that LMHR with high LDL do not have coronary artery calcium scores, like zero or unchanging. While consuming a ketogenic diet.
To be sure, while our LMHR study does have a majority without 0 CAC, there are a minority with a positive CAC, even if low for their age group (see Budoff presentation and the coming paper). And also, calcification can typically take a very long time to develop, this is why our major endpoint for the study is the population non-calcified plaque volume.
Man this is a lot of air hot for a very obvious point. If you told me someone's LDL-C/ApoB increased a lot on a Keto diet and asked me how to lower the LDL-C/ApoB down again, I would say eat some carbs. Holy Smoke! And I don't consider myself any kind of expert in this.
Yes, but only in lean individuals - that is the interesting part! Type I and II obese individuals routinely see no change or even a decrease in LDL-C when going on a keto diet. And all of this is independent of whether or not the individual is consuming a lot of saturated fat.
And of course this begs the question of whether this is dangerous for these individuals. Which is why they have started researching this very question.
@@nicknorwitzPhD I just finished watching the whole video while driving. I really enjoyed the academic scientific analysis with open critical thinking mindset which is a positive approach of your hard work research that all three of you deserve credit for bringing out transparency to the general public
Based on the few other Dr. Norwitz' successive social media posts he doesn't appear to be serious about his concern about the misrepresentations of his gimmicky experiment.
Sorry you feel that way. I state in the graphical abstract, written abstract, video abstract and across social media constantly that this was a metabolic demonstration and not health advice. I don't know how much clearer I can be.
Actually, I’ve been quite proud of Nick’s messaging on this experiment at each stage. From the publication itself, to the social media representation, to the interviews - he frequently and continuously emphasizes this distinction and has pushed back on misrepresentation.
This is golden! 😍Excellent topic and when I was vegan Oreos were my go to treat🤣. This is unbelievable! It just goes to show that there is more to learn on the topic. You guys are breaking through the fluff and finding the answers! Love this❤❤Awesome! TYVM-sharing!
Promise I won't send a follow up / this isn't a "challenge," but am vegan + am always curious when I hear some people say they used to be...mind if I ask how long you were and why you stopped?
I have no idea what these guys are driving at. Keto guy lowers his LDL by eating Oreos? One assumes that the point he is trying to make is that LDL is not necessarily bad, though it might be interpreted to mean that refined sugar and saturated fat can be GOOD.
Statins lower LDL-C, but don't reduce heart attack risk (except in those who've already had heart attacks). Lifestyle and stress aside, it is (environmental) exposures and processed food that foments heart disease risk. Omega 3 (very low in processed food) reduces heart disease risk (lowers inflammation and serum triglycerides). Processed food drives insulin and increases artery clots (via coronary artery smooth muscle proliferation) as well as glycocalyx reduction, making clot more likely (far and away the most probably root cause of plaque). Dietary sugar predicts risk of dying from a heart attack, lowering this lowers small dense LDL-C, triglycerides and raises HDL. Most people who take statin trusted bad medical advice, and are at risk of muscle breakdown, kidney diseases, and type 2 diabetes. Akira Endo, the statin discoverer, took himself off statins saying, "The indigo dyer wears white trousers"...any guess why he stated this?
There is a huge detail not often discussed: Nick avoids carbs to avoid IBD symptoms. If carbs = diarrhea then carbs subtracts calories and other nutrition easily by more than the additional amount eaten.
Layne Norton may have more followers but he’s pretty unimportant. People going deep for the truth will eventually land on your doorstep and not his. Patience will pay off.
Personally, I like Layne's work. He may miss the mark from time to time, and I can get behind not being a fan of his delivery, but I'm glad he's in the space - he's more right than wrong, and relies on science backed rationale, which I respect. Like I said, though, I understand he's not everyone's cup of tea. :)
Definitely seems like he's going through some "stuff" at the moment. Hopefully when he makes it through, the rigor with which he approaches this matter will improve. In the meantime, I wish he'd take a break. Not sure if it's "economics" or ego that prevents him from doing so. In any case, I wish him the best personally and that his family issues resolve as best they can
@@nicknorwitzPhDWell, I wasn't really sure what to think of you. I was starting to get the impression you're the kind of person who tries to present one face in public that's very different from your private face that you sometimes fail to hide. But this comment nails it. Without any evidence at all, you disparage Layne and try to start a rumor about him having family problems to deflect any criticism of yourself by him. What a weasel.
The opening summary says nothing about an "oreo-only diet" - he says that it was "12 oreos a day," which we can logically conclude probably wasn't the only thing eaten as that would only be ~700 calories a day. That would introduce the huge confounding element of fasting/starvation instead of examining the effects of supplementing oreos to one's usual diet like you would with adding a statin to control LDL.
Is there a possibility that there may be corroborating evidence in previous research that has been overlooked? By evidence I mean factors from certain participants that show similar rapid changes.
In all seriousness it would be interesting to see how this hyper responder would have had a stronger statin response if he also took a large dose of ezetimibe which might have reduced any effect of his potentially high cholesterol diet.
I have been following the hyper responders for several years. Thank you for spending the time. I even did the cholesterol bio hack of eating lots of fat for three days before cholesterol test. This was to try to change the result that my doctor was so upset about it did change my results by 60mg, but not in any kind of convincing way (to my PC for health). As hdl dropped 17mg. Anyway with the plant based metanalysis pointing to improvement and an up coming annual doctors visit. I have been eating a lot of fiber and as close to zero cholesterol as I can stomach. I find that I eat a whole lot more on a plant-based diet. I don’t find this a good thing. It’s uncomfortable, but I always feel hungry. SO I am hoping for a win on low carb/ldl connections. With Familial hypercholesterolemia, I need the science before I can be confident about going back to my preferred low carb lifestyle.
FWIW My severe hunger after switching to vegan with eTRF (no food after 5), got better after a couple weeks. I've heard that's how long it takes our liver to switch it's clock to making glucose in the evenings, but since my hunger was throughout the day, maybe there were other factors? Maybe the time required for my microbiome to adjust to sudden increase in plant protein? (PS I don't have familial hyperlipidemia.)
Nic, do you want to help change the world? If so, turn the focus of your scientific studies on metabolic health and the low-carb space. Dig in with all you got and find the truth! You are one of the few people out there that can do this. Dig in to find the pros/cons of a low-carb high fat diet.
That's not what this data and discussion says. I agree that SFA raises LDL-C, but for the vast majority of people, consuming oreos would only worsen the issue. In this *very specific* type of person (LMHR), oreos drastically reduce LDL-C for the reasons mentioned in the video.
A common "reflex" statement. Saturated fat in the Oreo arm actually went up. Also, lower BMI dominates over saturated fat for LDL-C increase. So, all things equal, the literature suggests being lean and low-carb and active while eating a keto diet rich in EVOO and fatty fish and low in red meat will lead to higher LDL than having obesity and eating ribeye steaks slathered in butter... thoughts?
@@nicknorwitzPhD Conclusion: Being lean and eating carbs is very important. Better carbs would be preferable long term, of course. The fact that being obese buffers LDL a bit (it's usually still too high) doesn't make up for the detriments of being obese and eating red meat and saturated fat.
Here... didn't track the A1c, which is avg over 3 months and the Oreo arm was 16 days. I don't think the A1c would have changed much, if at all. Baseline my A1c is 5.0%. At max maybe it bounced to 5.1% or 5.2%, but wouldn't be more than that@@Physionic
Ever have goat cheese, scallions and figs on baked sweet potatoes? fry the scallions then put on baked sweet potatoes and then top with the goat cheese and figs... thank me later!@@tracymullane8818
Commenting on the audio quality: nice mic, but you can notice that the recording settings aren't perfect. For example, at 28:02-28:06 it seems that the noise threshold is too high (or something like that) and it filters out the actual audio.
Part 2 on podcast? Nope. desperately want to hear, instead it’s dr stanfield from dec 23’, guessing I have to pay to hear part 2?! Briefly u guys got into mechanisms & I’ve heard nick & Dave’s model explanation yes but was hoping to get a bit more nuanced, will wait I guess 🥲excellent convo tho thanks. My takeaway is still test ur apo-b then decide, but seems like if all u have to do as LMHR is include some carbs, y not? (unless ur politically against it then LDL doesn’t matter anyways right?)
I'm skeptical of contrarian views in social media. Those contrarian views are so often used to stir up controversy for profit, whether through ad revenue, commission, or even name recognition. I'm not interested in case studies, even if they are well-controlled. There is not enough data to make meaningful conclusions. I will concede that it's possible these "mean mass hyper responders" exist and they aren't being picked up by the larger meta-analyses, but a case study doesn't white wash high LDL. I hope we find a better way to make personal recommendations that can identify outliers rather than relying on blanket recommendations.
100 years from now, mankind will know: 1. Higher LDL is actually good for your health 2. Higher carbon dioxide emissions are actually good for the planet.
@@limitisillusion7 Of course, it’s a U-shaped curve. Let me rephrase: levels of cholesterol and atmospheric carbon dioxide now considered “dangerous” will someday be seen as beneficial.
@@stevedow9076 LDL isn't currently seen as harmful... _high_ LDL is seen as harmful. The current medical model of LDL obeys the nature of the u shaped curve.
@@limitisillusion7 The amounts considered “harmful” by the statin, er, medical establishment are actually at the bottom of the U-shaped curve measuring the correlation between LDL and all-cause mortality, particularly is subjects over the age of 60
yes, starting weight the same. Oreo was a pure addition (so as not to reduce fat), so Oreo hyper caloric compared to statin. See Table in paper. Inflammatory markers not tracked. Main endpoint was lipids
Completely off topic I know, but can you maybe do a video sharing your thoughts about 5 htp? I’m trying to find something or a combination of supplements for add. I try to take as little prescription drugs as I can. Thx in Advance Nick. Awesome account please keep doing what you’re doing. 👍
Cholesterol is not even a risk factor. Its inflammation. Cholesterol goes to where inflammation is to try and heal the damage. If you live in a way that avoids this inflammation their is nothing to worry about.
I follow you on UA-cam and any doctor who backs up their opinions with research. Sorry to say it but all of you are driving us to a dead end. I am 65 years old and until today I had no problems with my health. In a last general blood test I had the following result. Triglycerides 86ml/dl, uric acid 6.5ml/dl cholesterol 213ml/dl HDL 50ml/dl LDL140ml/dl blood pressure average diastolic 65 and systolic 105. Fasting blood glucose 90mg/dl and two hours after eating 125mg/dl ApoB 92. My doctor saw these blood markers and tells me that I will have to be on statins for life anyway. When I asked him what his personal opinion is, he replied that these are the guidelines of the European Society of Cardiology and he has no personal opinion. In literally five minutes of the hour he finished the exam. What is your opinion? Should I take statins or not? By speaking your opinion, you have no responsibility. You can take my case as a case-study
I really enjoyed this video. Thank you for the deep analysis on this research and for bringing in Dr. Norwitz to the discussion. It was very informative and insightful. I learned a lot from your presentation and the questions you asked. I appreciate your efforts to share this valuable information with us.
This suggests again, that we are lied to about statins. 🤷♀️ Personally I would die if I consumed all that chocolate and sugar, but I get the point. I won't take statins either.
A pretty big nothing burger. Consider the huge caloric deficit. Anyone who understands the Randle cycle and fasting would expect big changes in cholesterol profile. The only real question is one that cannot be answered by experiments with N=1: is high level of LDL dangerous? The typical argument that it is has been presented by many, including Peter Attia. The argument is based on people who have a genetic abnormality that causes them to have a high level of LDL. These people have coronary plaque problems, regardless of whether they are lean or not. So, according to the preceding logic, high levels of LDL for LMHR should still lead to higher risk of coronary disease.
Having eaten an 85% Oreos diet since this paper came out, I can say that every disease I have been diagnosed with has vanished and every physiological measure of health has improved by a factor of 309% (pay no attention to the fact that this is being written on March 9th). - that critically important YT diet-war commenter 😊
IMHO ongoing dialogue as medicine/ science or bal of evidence evolves. I’ve watched many videos on statins, read studies/reviews to date w/personal experience thru friends and family incl health/medical prof’ls. Close friend died of sudden HA yrs ago. Autopsy showed blockages. He passed stress test and seemed healthy incl to wife. Shocking. York Cardiology also has good science and practice based videos on statins (no diet or food bias/ideology.) Pls DYOR and use discernment on what’s best for you incl taking a drug or not. Peace and health.
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Hello - before this gets any views: Please watch the video in its entirety for complete context, including my concluding thoughts. If I see a 'so, oreos are better for reducing my cholesterol???' comment, I will come to your house and frown at you disappointedly.
This is the best 😂 you win the internet for the day! Also, I'm a paramedic and watch your videos and listen to your podcast because alot of folks in Fire/EMS have metabolic disease and I like to stay ahead of it. Thank you for making your content easy to digest and deep diving and breaking studies down! You're a great presenter and teacher!
Based note
So oreos aren't better for reducing my cholesterol?
Jokes on you bruh, m be homeless!
Well, actually, if I'm a LMHR with high LDL on a low-carb diet, it definitely looks like Oreos are better than statins for reducing cholesterol. And maybe, just maybe, the more healthy option given the risk factors pertaining to statins.
The more important question is, will my insurance cover my Oreo prescription? 🤣😂
🤣
When they hear your ldl reduction , they send you free packets (express delivery).
LMHR here, celebrating 5 years on Keto, which has given me my life back at the age of 53 🤗
I have reversed pre-diabetes and NAFLD (after 10 years!!!), I have gotten rid of all inflammation - I used to have horrible headaches, now I have not had a single headache in 5 years!!! I used to get sick all the time, now I have not been sick in 5 years!!! The state of ketosis is magic ❤️ The anxiety and depression I had suffered from since I was a child have completely disappeared ❣️ I am in much better health now at 58 than I was in my twenties!!!
Dave Feldman and Nick Norwitz are geniuses, they will change the world of medicine. Because they also have the COURAGE ❣️
As opposed to others mentioned briefly in this podcast 😄
LDL protects against disease-the anti-cholesterol brigade does not seem to understand this.
My health insurance won't pay for Oreos, but the pharmacist told me the FDA recently approved two new generics called Hydrox and Joe Joes.
Apparently oreo is a 1912 imitation of the 1908 hydrox. I've never had hydrox, but after reading a description I'll stick to oreo 😂
Thanks for covering this with depth, Nic.
My pleasure!
It’s becoming obvious that emerging science is now way ahead of AHA LDL guidelines. Thankfully these brave young men are not afraid of challenging the old narrative. It’s a breath of fresh air.
OMG - why is nobody asking the most important question: Which Oreo? There’s so many, don’t choose wrong or THIS will happen ….
Lol. Regular. Not special flavor. Gluten and all. No mint. No double stuffed. Just the classic
It's even worse than you think. He used Hydrox.
🤣@@lashedbutnotleashed1984
Double stuffed.
Twice the oil and sugar "filling" twice the cholesterol lowering properties....or is it?
And how did he eat them? Did he remove the top and bottom and lick out the insides or did he just go right at - or worse yet he varied his approach! Clearly this could have caused a chain reaction effecting every part of his physiology. Maybe Nicolas could shed some light on this.
I've already seen Nick do the same interview in several different channels but I still watch it to support his message.
The interview format is great. Would recommend more direct questioning and synthesis of the arguments to keep the discussion framed explicitly around is being said and the limits of the ideas. More challenging questions could be interesting as well.
Thanks for the feedback :)
That’s a very polite way of stating that there was no coverage of the actual subject.
@@aelhaji Agreed. I wish they'd have talked about the actual lipid energy model and how it works.
Dr. Nick Norwitz used Oreos like musicians use the diminished chord dissonant sound. The dissonant sound makes the resolution more satisfying.
Thank you? I think... hehe... I'm a musical moron
OMG yes, that's a perfect analogy!!
@@AnneAlready We could help Dr. Nick learn to sing and play ukulele. He could learn a new song everyday. When he is ready of course. What do you think?
@@fiddlerJohn LOL I am not sure about that. I do believe anyone can learn to sing and play an instrument but I feel Nicks calling may be in other directions at the moment.. Perhaps in the future? ;)
@@AnneAlready Agreed. Nick has a calling. It's working. He's making a difference. Bravo Nick. Music is how I meditate. I sense that Nick's high pressure drive could be balanced. You know, some yin with the yang. I'm so impressed by what he has done already, and he's only getting started.
Is that carb-deficiency, "fixed" by Oreos?
Yes, any carbs will reduce cholesterol in carnivore dieters. Shawn Baker says his cholesterol went sky high, so he recommended 100g carbs in his January tweet.
I wouldn't say the "deficiency" is pathological. But yet reversible liver glycogen depletion. So you're not wrong.
You can't be deficient in a non- essential macronutrient . Without Fats or protein , you die .without carbs , you become ketogenic .
@@johnhawkins3507It seems now that the 'sky high ' ldl cholesterol may , surprisingly, be protective against heart disease and other chronic illnesses , when accompanied by a ketogenic, health promoting, lifestyle .Lowering it may be akin to being less protected from such illnesses.
Nic is one of the most objective people on youtube. If there's anyone who can have a conversation with either "side", it's Nic. I think I may be starting to hyper respond. I'm watching closely as developments play out. Ultimately I want to know if I should A) not worry, or B) make small adjustments, C) make a big pivot D) something else
Everyone is caught up on the Oreos, but all I hear is that carnivore / keto raises LDL (at least in people with low BMI) to levels that are thought of as dangerously high, and introducing carbs of any kind is effective at lowering LDL. Unless we’re evaluating other markers of atherogenisis, and arguing that high LDL isn’t an independent and causative risk factor, this all seems kinda irrelevant.
Ding ding ding
The reason it's not irrelevant is that the dust hasn't settled on the role of LDL as a CVD risk factor. In fact it remains a whirling duststorm. So any ray of light that shines through the dust is definitely relevant as a point of departure for further investigation.
@@briandriscoll1480 What world do you live in? LDL is a known causal risk factor for CVD. There has been numerous meta analyses and systematic reviews which show it as such.
@@briandriscoll1480 but there is no such claim here, so there is no such ray. In fact, Dr Baker, who coined the term "carnivore diet", stated explicitly in a recent moderated debate that he makes no claim the carnivore diet is good for longevity.
@@troy3423It is known to be a causal risk factor among several other risk factors that all interplay with each other. The preponderance of evidence suggests the possibility that the entire context of not just the elevated LDL level itself, but also the etiology of that elevation and the interplay of all the factors is much more likely to inform on ASCVD risk than the LDL level itself.
In short - we know it's a factor, but we don't have the whole picture, and the whole picture seems likely to be that the level itself isn't as important as the entire context. We just don't have enough data on this to warrant the absolute panic that exists right now regarding "elevated" LDL levels.
You need to do a video on the whole controversy surrounding statin use and alzheimers.. PLEASE!!!!
99% of the benefit of knowledge is that you take it from the tongue of a specialist! This is what made this meeting so wonderful and useful
Total diversion from the podcast at hand, but I have a question.
The term "lean mass hyper-responder": is that a "real" scientifically defined term, or an industry colloquialism? What exactly does it mean to be a "lean mass hyper-responder"? And why should we care?
Not a diversion at all!
LDL-C ≥ 200
HDL-C ≥ 80
TG ≤ 70 mg/dl
The idea is that many lean individuals who go on keto diets experience a hyper response to the combination of restricted carbs and lean body mass. That hyper response is the skyrocketing of LDL-C. These individuals can also see an acute (within days) lowering of LDL-C simply by adding carbohydrates back to their diets.
I can't go over all of the nuances and intricacies of the phenomenon, as well as the lipid energy model that seeks to explain the phenomenon (Nick and Dave have plenty of videos going into it), but the implications of this model, if proven correct, are a revised understanding of human lipidemiology and lipid metabolism.
Also, if this lipid energy model is correct, it adds nuances to our understanding of hyperlipidemia and its various etiologies, with a possibility that the risk for developing ASCVD is impacted by the specific context of the hyperlipidemia.
That is to say, it's possible that high cholesterol in one context (from one cause) may carry a different ASCVD risk from high cholesterol in a different context (from a different cause.)
Dave coined the term to describe what he was seeing, in terms of skyrocketing LDL in the context of high HDL ("good") cholesterol and very low triglycerides. It is not a phenotype that is easily accounted for in the lipid heart model, as it turns a lot of the typical associations on their heads.
So this is a keto diet centric phenomenon? Would the same scenario apply to Eskimo keto like diets
This is amazing and I am saying it as a doctor welcoming people to participate in science - I don’t want people to eat Oreos but I am so excited how community is getting involved in health science thank you
I dunno, I think Nick’s perspective of Layne Norton’s video is off base, because I thought Layne was very fair. He thanked Nick for sending the papers, he stated multiple times that this data is very interesting, it should be studied, he stated, “I don’t know what to make of this”, and that he believes this cohort is at a lower risk of atherosclerosis compared to a group of people with elevated ldl and other comorbidities like obesity and insulin resistance etc. However, he still believes they are at a higher risk compared to a cohort with all things equal, but with lower LDL. He then did talk about the takeaways from the study as being problematic. Nick is frustrated with this, but this is what the keto community was/is doing(not all, but many), even some of the pundits that Nick associates with, like Shawn Baker, who is the one who that promoted the study on a large scale. Shawn stated in a video, “If eating pure absolute garbage junk lowers your LDL cholesterol more so than even satin drugs, what does it say about the act of lowering cholesterol?”. Is that not problematic messaging? Nick is mad at Layne, but maybe he should be mad at folks like Shawn who hurts his research more than people like Layne. So Layne acknowledged the positives and also the negatives. Not sure what Nick can complain about there. I sympathize more with Nick in regard to Layne making a video instead of speaking/collaborating with Nick first, I think that’s what Nick really wanted, and I believe that would have been the better way. Nick might also be frustrated with Layne in his attempts to explain the physiology behind this subset of people, but again he acknowledged he didn’t know. Nick wants pushback, but then makes a video attacking the people pushing back, see Nick’s response video to Layne. He posts tweets demonstrating Layne as being a “patterned bully”, but Nick associates with Tro, who is the biggest bully on the internet. What do you make of that, Nick? And was Layne a bully before you wanted to collaborate with him? I get it, Nick is mad that Layne messed up explaining some of this research, but Nick could have responded in a more respectful way. He chose not to.
I can see some of your point. If Dr. Baker said something to that effect, I agree - which is why I'm often frustrated with how this data is being represented by carnivore and keto enthusiasts. I like Layne's work for the most part - he's an asset to the science based community and while I think he misses things from uncommon time to uncommon time, I think he's generally an excellent source. I'm not sure about the ins and outs of the Nick and Layne discussion, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me so long as there's a discussion of data. I think Nick and Dave did a great job contextualizing their work here, and while I don't share the frustrations about Dr. Norton that Nick does, I certainly understand the sentiment (from the other side, like the example you offered).
I agree. I’m a bit perplexed by Nick’s interpretation of Layne’s response.
@@Physionic Thanks for the response. I would have sent the link of Shawn saying this, but I guess UA-cam won’t let you. If anyone is interested in where this quote came from, it’s on Shawn’s UA-cam page under the title “Eat Oreo cookies, get healthy!!” it’s a 3min40sec video. That specific quote is near the end of the video.
@@worldnomad2301 and also Baker stating explicitly in a recent “debate” that he makes no claim the carnivore diet is good for longevity.
@@dustinirwin1And that "some" of his videos proclaiming health benefits of a carnivore diet are entertainment only.
Nick Norwitz seems more excited about raising his "influencer" profile than doing objective science research.
I tried to watch his channel, so I see what you mean. Dave seems to be more neutral in this regard and is willing to say he does not (yet) know certain things, which I can appreciate.
To be fair to Nick, his words are being taken out of context alot, and his channel's messaging is different than that in his interviews with "good cop" Dave present.
You seem confused. He’s trying to cultivate a platform to present his scientific research, in a field where most people think “the science is settled”. Also, if you believe his research lacks objectivity, where lies the subjectivity???
Maybe I didn’t listen closely enough to Layne’s response, but I didn’t have the impression his response was intended to disparage the researchers, but rather to mitigate the polarization coming out of the “sides”…my main takeaway was that you can’t draw polarizing conclusions from a sample of one. Bc that is a typical response from his audience. Or at least the people who engage with him, defensively or otherwise. I’m just a student but I can’t see the fault in that argument. if I handed in a paper where I tried to support my point with a study of one, I’d be put on academic probation (and I’m in social sciences where small studies happen all the time).
More than an hour of conversation but no discussion of the actual content at hand - just a conversation about how the content has been received by the wider community.
I really like this conversation about science education because I’ve learned so much from your channel (as a non-scientist trying to figure out how to lose weight and increase health span). This actually reminds me of the work Vincent Raccaniello does with TWIV and other UA-cam channels/podcasts. He typically brings on panels of researchers to discuss topics in their fields, and I’ve learned so much about microbiology from hearing their agreements and quibbles.
Good interview. You just keep maintaining your scientific objectivity. Unlike folks like Layne Norton, who is kind of an opinionated bully, sometimes, you remain neutral and open minded. Thanks.
Fascinating discussion. thank you. Awesome closure by Nick.
Thank you :)
thank you for covering this, it is a little above my head; however, the information you present is trusted and helps me improve.
Thanks for listening and trying... we know it's dense!
This is great! I stocked up on a bunch of oreos. Finally I can enjoy what I love eating the most and not worry about high LDL. Thanks
Nic, fantastic discussion. One quibble, in the methodology section, you didn't specify how Nick ate his Oreos (twist, crunch, one layer at a time, dunked in milk) and this cries out for some follow-up. Yes, I am kidding. But I do wonder questions about the blood work and specifically if Nick and the team measured ApoB and lipid fractionation measures? Finally, the discussion at the end on dynamism was utterly fascinating and potentially quite subversive. If testing measures for lipids are variable over very short periods, it brings into question quite a lot about diagnosis and treatment, or am I completely misunderstanding this?
It is a prediction of the Lipid Energy Model.
I was wondering if this dynamism happens on other diets or specifically on keto. My LDL seems to have been pretty consistent over the years, but I have been on a pretty consistent diet. I'm 65, vegetarian since 1970 for about 41 years, and then vegan since 2011. LDL was 50-60 when I was in my 20s and 30s, and 80-88 now.
@@carinaekstrom1Short answer: yes, will depend more if fat-adapted or not (and this would be predicted by the LEM). If you’re trafficking more fat due to literally being fueled by it? Then don’t be surprised if the *other* major cargo in an ApoB (cholesterol) is moving up and down to track with the TG delivery dynamics. Powered more by glucose? Then probably less movement on net for those ApoB carriers.
@@realDaveFeldman Ok, thanks.
@@carinaekstrom1 as long as you’re metabolically healthy you’re good!
😮Arghhh! You now have the $199 entry level to The Insiders!!! I just joined. You should talk that up a bit more Nic. Every time I watched a video I wished I could join Insiders but the pro was just out of reach for me. Glad to be a part of it now.
Thanks for joining, Joseph - glad to have you aboard. :)
Nik be like yeah I know the original Spider-Man I’m the main character
LOL! Call me Tom and him Toby
I don't really get what the implications are. Seems like I shouldnt go low carb (which I wont because I feel great on a wfpb diet).
This probably doesn't apply to you, then. You're right - stick to your WFPB diet.
and I feel great on low carb, but I won't ever go carnivore.
This nerd battle has been getting juicy. Love it.
Juicy? Hmm... Starburst next time?
I deliberately stayed away from this social media splash .. but .. as you’ve now covered it, I’m diving in . I suspect this will be an entertaining hour (or so)
Same. Also, the thumbnail was underwhelming in a sea of Curious-Pique-ers. But it’s Nic and his style and humor never disappoints.
10/10 for expanding audience!
As someone with a PhD in I&O psych, I think a main issue underlying some of bigger platforms ignoring Nick and Dave's work is status related. Within the context of medical science/ biology, Nick and Dave both have relatively low status because of their positions within the field (Dave's general background and Nick still being quite junior). While status sometimes might be correlated with and indicative of quality of science, it often isn't at all. Yet, still the "big guys" don't take them as seriously as they should, because of their status. You see this happening over and over again in many different fields of science and practice (e.g., PhD students not getting the merit they deserve while working together with full professors, high status surgeons ignoring feedback for more low status coworkers). It clearly stands in the way of unbiased knowledge accumulation and high team performance, but alas- often people are not as rational as would be ideal.
I’ve been hearing this Oreos-better-than-statins meme bouncing around for weeks now and came to this channel to get the lowdown on it.
Welcome
Hope you enjoy
@@nicknorwitzPhD Nick, I really am curious to learn how, exactly, this lipid energy model works. Would love to see a video with you and/or Dave explaining it, with animation, etc. Are you guys working on this?
Essentially, cholesterol and triglycerides are sent in VLDL to transport the triglycerides to the tissues. After this the VLDL turns into more cholesterol rich LDL. The idea that it's less damaging is because it has a short lifetime before recycling, and because the diet is quite anti-inflammatory and lean mass hyper responders are.. very lean and active.@@BillyBoy66
Above all, the question remains: Why is this relevant? Why should I care? Why did Nick Norwitz's colitis go into remission on a ketogenic diet? Why did my rheumatoid arthritis go into remission on a ketogenic diet? Why did my son's colitis go into remission on a ketogenic diet? What happened to Mikhaela Peterson? Why can a ketogenic diet put epilepsy in remission? Why can a ketogenic diet improve or cure mental illnesses from bipolar disorder to shizophrenia? Why are all 5 symptoms of metabolic syndrome improved by a ketogenic diet? That is the relevant question we should ask. The LMHR question only becomes relevant through another question: Why is the ketogenic diet such a powerful therapeutic intervention?
It's relevant because the lipid hypothesis, as is, is false.
I don't think we can say that for sure. I believe that the ketogenic metabolism could work completely differently than in a metabolism that is confronted with carbohydrates and fats. All of our studies assume a metabolism that is essentially based on a diet that relies on carbohydrates for energy. The LMHR is a phenotype that only arises under a special condition: a low-carbohydrate diet. It could be that LDL is assessed differently under these conditions than under the conditions of a standard diet. Hence the question of relevance: Why should I care if it only affects a few nerds who eat like this? Well, the answer is clear: because it could be that this diet is a key to curing lifestyle diseases. If that is the case, then we would have to ask the question: Are we eating species-appropriately? Is perhaps a low-carbohydrate diet the key to health and is our sub-species-appropriate diet the reason for our catastrophic health? That is the relevant question. The other question only becomes relevant through this question.@@cattleprods911
There isn't one shred of evidence that LDL-C penetrates the epithelial wall from higher than XXX amount, let alone forms any plaque, nor is there one shred of evidence of statin benefit outside of pre-existing heat attack. While LMHR is a special case, this study pulls the rug out from under a widely accepted theory. History with judge the lipid hypothesis, as a tidal wave of data that undermines it will come.@@user-rh3js7ik2m
"Why is the ketogenic diet such a powerful therapeutic intervention?" And if it is, how can we get similar results without all the potential long term problems a ketogenic diet can have?
Why do keto and low carb diets where you are stuffing your face with sfa make people's hearts explode? Why does meat cause ass cancer?
I love the citizen scientist idea. Their group showed that LMHR with high LDL do not have coronary artery calcium scores, like zero or unchanging. While consuming a ketogenic diet.
To be sure, while our LMHR study does have a majority without 0 CAC, there are a minority with a positive CAC, even if low for their age group (see Budoff presentation and the coming paper). And also, calcification can typically take a very long time to develop, this is why our major endpoint for the study is the population non-calcified plaque volume.
They probably haven't been on a ketogenic diet for decades, and have less overall risk because of low BMI as well.
I tried Dave's bread experiment. It made my ldl go from 187 to 83.
Wow - thanks for sharing. As always, not medical advice, etc - but appreciate the added anecdotal data.
Man this is a lot of air hot for a very obvious point. If you told me someone's LDL-C/ApoB increased a lot on a Keto diet and asked me how to lower the LDL-C/ApoB down again, I would say eat some carbs. Holy Smoke! And I don't consider myself any kind of expert in this.
Yes, but only in lean individuals - that is the interesting part! Type I and II obese individuals routinely see no change or even a decrease in LDL-C when going on a keto diet. And all of this is independent of whether or not the individual is consuming a lot of saturated fat.
And of course this begs the question of whether this is dangerous for these individuals. Which is why they have started researching this very question.
@@saintwithatieare the obese individuals losing weight following this diet?
@@CharlieFader Yes, weight loss is the norm when adopting a keto diet, and it's common to see LDL levels increase as weight is lost.
@@saintwithatie generally though weight loss leads to lower LDL, unless there’s a meaningful increase in the saturated fat content.
I just woke up! It’s early morning here! I can’t wait to watch this video I’ve been waiting for a long time. Brb and thanks Dr Nick!
very welcome :) ... assuming you're talking to me... lol... (nick with a "k")
@@nicknorwitzPhDImagine how I feel being the one guest with two “Nic/k”s to address.
@@nicknorwitzPhD I just finished watching the whole video while driving. I really enjoyed the academic scientific analysis with open critical thinking mindset which is a positive approach of your hard work research that all three of you deserve credit for bringing out transparency to the general public
Based on the few other Dr. Norwitz' successive social media posts he doesn't appear to be serious about his concern about the misrepresentations of his gimmicky experiment.
I haven't gotten that impression. I think he's always been fair, which is why I had him on, and he continued to be fair here.
Sounds like you are advocating for suppression of knowledge because non-academics should only get instructions instead of knowledge.
Sorry you feel that way. I state in the graphical abstract, written abstract, video abstract and across social media constantly that this was a metabolic demonstration and not health advice. I don't know how much clearer I can be.
Actually, I’ve been quite proud of Nick’s messaging on this experiment at each stage. From the publication itself, to the social media representation, to the interviews - he frequently and continuously emphasizes this distinction and has pushed back on misrepresentation.
This is golden! 😍Excellent topic and when I was vegan Oreos were my go to treat🤣. This is unbelievable! It just goes to show that there is more to learn on the topic. You guys are breaking through the fluff and finding the answers! Love this❤❤Awesome! TYVM-sharing!
Promise I won't send a follow up / this isn't a "challenge," but am vegan + am always curious when I hear some people say they used to be...mind if I ask how long you were and why you stopped?
Oreos were made with lard until the mid-90s when they switched to hydrogenated vegetable oils.
I have no idea what these guys are driving at. Keto guy lowers his LDL by eating Oreos? One assumes that the point he is trying to make is that LDL is not necessarily bad, though it might be interpreted to mean that refined sugar and saturated fat can be GOOD.
Thank you for listening and commenting!
Very interesting... I hope you get the funding to explore this interesting case-study finding. :)
Statins lower LDL-C, but don't reduce heart attack risk (except in those who've already had heart attacks). Lifestyle and stress aside, it is (environmental) exposures and processed food that foments heart disease risk. Omega 3 (very low in processed food) reduces heart disease risk (lowers inflammation and serum triglycerides). Processed food drives insulin and increases artery clots (via coronary artery smooth muscle proliferation) as well as glycocalyx reduction, making clot more likely (far and away the most probably root cause of plaque). Dietary sugar predicts risk of dying from a heart attack, lowering this lowers small dense LDL-C, triglycerides and raises HDL. Most people who take statin trusted bad medical advice, and are at risk of muscle breakdown, kidney diseases, and type 2 diabetes. Akira Endo, the statin discoverer, took himself off statins saying, "The indigo dyer wears white trousers"...any guess why he stated this?
I knew Oreos was better for you than drugs
Vindication at last !
Safe messaging around Oreo cookies as medicine? 😂
There is a huge detail not often discussed: Nick avoids carbs to avoid IBD symptoms. If carbs = diarrhea then carbs subtracts calories and other nutrition easily by more than the additional amount eaten.
Layne Norton may have more followers but he’s pretty unimportant. People going deep for the truth will eventually land on your doorstep and not his. Patience will pay off.
Personally, I like Layne's work. He may miss the mark from time to time, and I can get behind not being a fan of his delivery, but I'm glad he's in the space - he's more right than wrong, and relies on science backed rationale, which I respect. Like I said, though, I understand he's not everyone's cup of tea. :)
Definitely seems like he's going through some "stuff" at the moment. Hopefully when he makes it through, the rigor with which he approaches this matter will improve. In the meantime, I wish he'd take a break. Not sure if it's "economics" or ego that prevents him from doing so. In any case, I wish him the best personally and that his family issues resolve as best they can
@@nicknorwitzPhDWell, I wasn't really sure what to think of you. I was starting to get the impression you're the kind of person who tries to present one face in public that's very different from your private face that you sometimes fail to hide. But this comment nails it. Without any evidence at all, you disparage Layne and try to start a rumor about him having family problems to deflect any criticism of yourself by him. What a weasel.
I had the highest cholesterol my doctor had ever seen in 1996. I must have all my arteries clogged by now!
Such a great discussion!
TYVM for listening!
Before watching. My guess is that an Oreo-only diet would result in eating very little calories (because you would get bored with them)
Good guess, but not exactly what happened here. :)
The opening summary says nothing about an "oreo-only diet" - he says that it was "12 oreos a day," which we can logically conclude probably wasn't the only thing eaten as that would only be ~700 calories a day. That would introduce the huge confounding element of fasting/starvation instead of examining the effects of supplementing oreos to one's usual diet like you would with adding a statin to control LDL.
Ya well it wasn't an Oreo only diet it was an Oreo addition
@@WildTaltos I said "before watching" 🤷♂
Is there a possibility that there may be corroborating evidence in previous research that has been overlooked? By evidence I mean factors from certain participants that show similar rapid changes.
There is. We have a few papers showing adding carbs in LMHR drop LDL-C like a rock!
It would be a trade-off, as Oreos are extremely high in glyphosate which is a known carcinogen.
In all seriousness it would be interesting to see how this hyper responder would have had a stronger statin response if he also took a large dose of ezetimibe which might have reduced any effect of his potentially high cholesterol diet.
I have been following the hyper responders for several years. Thank you for spending the time. I even did the cholesterol bio hack of eating lots of fat for three days before cholesterol test. This was to try to change the result that my doctor was so upset about it did change my results by 60mg, but not in any kind of convincing way (to my PC for health). As hdl dropped 17mg. Anyway with the plant based metanalysis pointing to improvement and an up coming annual doctors visit. I have been eating a lot of fiber and as close to zero cholesterol as I can stomach. I find that I eat a whole lot more on a plant-based diet. I don’t find this a good thing. It’s uncomfortable, but I always feel hungry. SO I am hoping for a win on low carb/ldl connections. With Familial hypercholesterolemia, I need the science before I can be confident about going back to my preferred low carb lifestyle.
FWIW My severe hunger after switching to vegan with eTRF (no food after 5), got better after a couple weeks. I've heard that's how long it takes our liver to switch it's clock to making glucose in the evenings, but since my hunger was throughout the day, maybe there were other factors? Maybe the time required for my microbiome to adjust to sudden increase in plant protein?
(PS I don't have familial hyperlipidemia.)
Nic, do you want to help change the world? If so, turn the focus of your scientific studies on metabolic health and the low-carb space. Dig in with all you got and find the truth! You are one of the few people out there that can do this. Dig in to find the pros/cons of a low-carb high fat diet.
Awesome scientific talk ,TY very much!
Thanks for listening with an open-mind!
What if I don't like Oreos... Can I use Chips Ahoy?? 😜
If I had used Chips Ahoy, would have worked... yes
@@nicknorwitzPhD, lol. I like your style 😉
You guys are awesome!
Any connections with Kemper’s Rice Diet documented in 1939?
So high SFA keto diet is so terrible for LDL-C (in some people) that even oreos are better in contrast
That's not what this data and discussion says. I agree that SFA raises LDL-C, but for the vast majority of people, consuming oreos would only worsen the issue. In this *very specific* type of person (LMHR), oreos drastically reduce LDL-C for the reasons mentioned in the video.
He stated in the intro that it wasn’t a high SFA diet.
@@Physionic I missed the bit about his diet being not necessarily High SFA
A common "reflex" statement. Saturated fat in the Oreo arm actually went up. Also, lower BMI dominates over saturated fat for LDL-C increase. So, all things equal, the literature suggests being lean and low-carb and active while eating a keto diet rich in EVOO and fatty fish and low in red meat will lead to higher LDL than having obesity and eating ribeye steaks slathered in butter... thoughts?
@@nicknorwitzPhD Conclusion: Being lean and eating carbs is very important. Better carbs would be preferable long term, of course. The fact that being obese buffers LDL a bit (it's usually still too high) doesn't make up for the detriments of being obese and eating red meat and saturated fat.
Dynamism! So cool and so exciting!
How did Nick’s a1c trend during his Oreo experiment?
Maybe he'll get on here later to answer.
Here... didn't track the A1c, which is avg over 3 months and the Oreo arm was 16 days. I don't think the A1c would have changed much, if at all. Baseline my A1c is 5.0%. At max maybe it bounced to 5.1% or 5.2%, but wouldn't be more than that@@Physionic
Thanks for jumping in right away to answer that. I think it's a burning question for many. @nicknorwitzPhD
Thanks Nick for your reply, pretty rapid reply at that.
Ever have goat cheese, scallions and figs on baked sweet potatoes? fry the scallions then put on baked sweet potatoes and then top with the goat cheese and figs... thank me later!@@tracymullane8818
So the LDL went down, what happen to triglycerides?
see the paper! you may be surprised... but the TG response it also predicted by the LEM
Doesnt niacin b3 also lower colesterol? Niacin also increases blood sugar in combination with a meal.
So you are saying I should eat Oreos to reduce my cholesterol? (I'm from Bosnia and Hercegovina, so I know you won't be coming to my doorstep)
*Sky dives into the country, frown locked and loaded*
Bosna jeca
a question for both Nick and Dave, do you manage your ldl at all? or are you not concerned at all with the high ldl levels when on a ketognic diet?
Thank you 🙏
Never used a statin - love sweets!
Commenting on the audio quality: nice mic, but you can notice that the recording settings aren't perfect. For example, at 28:02-28:06 it seems that the noise threshold is too high (or something like that) and it filters out the actual audio.
Thanks for the feedback
Part 2 on podcast? Nope. desperately want to hear, instead it’s dr stanfield from dec 23’, guessing I have to pay to hear part 2?! Briefly u guys got into mechanisms & I’ve heard nick & Dave’s model explanation yes but was hoping to get a bit more nuanced, will wait I guess 🥲excellent convo tho thanks. My takeaway is still test ur apo-b then decide, but seems like if all u have to do as LMHR is include some carbs, y not? (unless ur politically against it then LDL doesn’t matter anyways right?)
It releases next week
Would love to see a debate between him and Thomas Dayspring 😊
I'm skeptical of contrarian views in social media. Those contrarian views are so often used to stir up controversy for profit, whether through ad revenue, commission, or even name recognition. I'm not interested in case studies, even if they are well-controlled. There is not enough data to make meaningful conclusions. I will concede that it's possible these "mean mass hyper responders" exist and they aren't being picked up by the larger meta-analyses, but a case study doesn't white wash high LDL. I hope we find a better way to make personal recommendations that can identify outliers rather than relying on blanket recommendations.
100 years from now, mankind will know:
1. Higher LDL is actually good for your health
2. Higher carbon dioxide emissions are actually good for the planet.
@@stevedow9076 Too much water is lethal, as is too much of anything else. LDL is no different.
@@limitisillusion7 Of course, it’s a U-shaped curve.
Let me rephrase: levels of cholesterol and atmospheric carbon dioxide now considered “dangerous” will someday be seen as beneficial.
@@stevedow9076 LDL isn't currently seen as harmful... _high_ LDL is seen as harmful. The current medical model of LDL obeys the nature of the u shaped curve.
@@limitisillusion7 The amounts considered “harmful” by the statin, er, medical establishment are actually at the bottom of the U-shaped curve measuring the correlation between LDL and all-cause mortality, particularly is subjects over the age of 60
Statins are oreo alternatives for those who are deficient in the lmhr phenotype .
Thank you! Ditching those awful statins for Oreos right away!
1. Were the calories and weight the same at both testing points? 2. Any data on inflammation markers at both testing points?
yes, starting weight the same. Oreo was a pure addition (so as not to reduce fat), so Oreo hyper caloric compared to statin. See Table in paper. Inflammatory markers not tracked. Main endpoint was lipids
Do we know how long it took for Norwitz' cholesterol levels, prior to to the end of the 3-month washout period, to return to his normal "high" levels?
Completely off topic I know, but can you maybe do a video sharing your thoughts about 5 htp? I’m trying to find something or a combination of supplements for add. I try to take as little prescription drugs as I can. Thx in Advance Nick. Awesome account please keep doing what you’re doing. 👍
Cholesterol is not even a risk factor. Its inflammation. Cholesterol goes to where inflammation is to try and heal the damage. If you live in a way that avoids this inflammation their is nothing to worry about.
So Oreos lowers inflammation?
@@silviahayakawa6655 nope. Carbs are toxic.
Everyone gets inflammation.
Great timing, I made an Oreo ice cream pint for my Creami just last night.
Respect for the chef!
I follow you on UA-cam and any doctor who backs up their opinions with research. Sorry to say it but all of you are driving us to a dead end. I am 65 years old and until today I had no problems with my health. In a last general blood test I had the following result. Triglycerides 86ml/dl, uric acid 6.5ml/dl cholesterol 213ml/dl HDL 50ml/dl LDL140ml/dl blood pressure average diastolic 65 and systolic 105. Fasting blood glucose 90mg/dl and two hours after eating 125mg/dl ApoB 92. My doctor saw these blood markers and tells me that I will have to be on statins for life anyway. When I asked him what his personal opinion is, he replied that these are the guidelines of the European Society of Cardiology and he has no personal opinion. In literally five minutes of the hour he finished the exam. What is your opinion? Should I take statins or not? By speaking your opinion, you have no responsibility. You can take my case as a case-study
Where can I see the rest of the conversation with Dave Feldman?
statins are bsically a scam. That said, I used red rice yeast once and it worked great on me.
If you've had a heart attack, data shows benefit. For all else, yep, 100% scam.
What is the point? The guy went into keto, got high ldl as some do, shot himself out of keto via Oreos and ldl went down again... What am I missing?
Too bad Peter Attia isn't open to speaking with you. Must be an ego thing... I subscribe to his Podcast so I'm a big fan.
Certainly no lack of self confidence.
This Nick scrub is just a clickbater--the oreo keto scrub. I'll pass
Tabs for the actual science would be great. If there is any. I'm not patient enough to find out.
so, oreos are better for reducing my cholesterol???
I really enjoyed this video. Thank you for the deep analysis on this research and for bringing in Dr. Norwitz to the discussion. It was very informative and insightful. I learned a lot from your presentation and the questions you asked. I appreciate your efforts to share this valuable information with us.
Nick squared!
Thanks for listening
Really wasn't expecting this title lol
Me neither
breaking expectations is the best part of science@@Physionic
Yes, and I'll bet that Chips Ahoy cures erectile dysfunction too.
Oreo cookies and LDL.
Oh my God.
what was his ldl prior to the high point at the start of the chart?
This suggests again, that we are lied to about statins. 🤷♀️ Personally I would die if I consumed all that chocolate and sugar, but I get the point. I won't take statins either.
A pretty big nothing burger. Consider the huge caloric deficit. Anyone who understands the Randle cycle and fasting would expect big changes in cholesterol profile.
The only real question is one that cannot be answered by experiments with N=1: is high level of LDL dangerous? The typical argument that it is has been presented by many, including Peter Attia. The argument is based on people who have a genetic abnormality that causes them to have a high level of LDL. These people have coronary plaque problems, regardless of whether they are lean or not.
So, according to the preceding logic, high levels of LDL for LMHR should still lead to higher risk of coronary disease.
Having eaten an 85% Oreos diet since this paper came out, I can say that every disease I have been diagnosed with has vanished and every physiological measure of health has improved by a factor of 309% (pay no attention to the fact that this is being written on March 9th). - that critically important YT diet-war commenter 😊
Dr. Nick says Oreos can lower cholesterol? Another Simpsons prediction coming true? 🤔
Damn, even junk food is better for than drugs....!!!! 🤣🤣And even more important yet, did the FDA approved of OREOS????
IMHO ongoing dialogue as medicine/ science or bal of evidence evolves. I’ve watched many videos on statins, read studies/reviews to date w/personal experience thru friends and family incl health/medical prof’ls. Close friend died of sudden HA yrs ago. Autopsy showed blockages. He passed stress test and seemed healthy incl to wife. Shocking. York Cardiology also has good science and practice based videos on statins (no diet or food bias/ideology.) Pls DYOR and use discernment on what’s best for you incl taking a drug or not. Peace and health.
Hey Nic.... I heard your 'moniker' is gouge...