Loggers Tried to Buy My Forest
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
- If you've ever thought about selling your trees, you'll want to hear this.
As a woodlot owner, sawmill operator and manager of my own forest, profit is something I consider often as the forest is a profitable resource. Consideration all options available to me is something I do regularly to make sure I can make money while maintaining the longevity of the forest. Some days however, things don't always go as expected.
#forestry #logging #sawmillbusiness #tree #sawmill
I forgot to mention that I typically prefer cutting down red pines in the colder months as in the warmer months the red pines will start to get boring insects into them in about 3 to 4 weeks after they've been cut down even if they're piled off the ground. Only remedy is to remove the bark or keep them wet.
I am a retired wild land FF and sawyer for USFS, I found your channel by accident and at first I thought big deal, I have experience. I then kept the video going and could not stop watching. I really appreciate your knowledge and insight about forest health. I am going to mill some lumber this week on my property and just want to say thanks from an old sawyer. Keep this up.
Forest management can be a lot of work. A couple of thoughts on having someone else do it. First, thinning results in trees growing faster which means larger trees which are normally more valuable. So if for the prices you quoted today you make a small profit you now have a healthier forest which next time around you have more desirable larger trees to harvest that are more valuable. Second, as you mentioned you have some access improvement which would still be needed for future harvesting as well. This could also be useful for other reasons such as having access to bring in heavy trucks for other uses, such as improving your sawmill site. You can still continue doing the work you enjoy, but in the meantime your forest is becoming more valuable at a faster rate and you have a bit of cash to invest in other things. If you do choose a logger, have them show you jobs they have done to see how well they clean up. Sometimes you get loggers that take the logs but fail to do a good job cleaning up at the end.
That's a good point Doug. It's a tough thing for me to let go control of as the unknown is what gets to me.
Hi Sandy. A few months ago, Adam, on Hometown Acres, went through some of the same thought processes. He showed a neighbour's bush, which had been logged and left as a disaster. Adam found a logger who thinned the forest, to take out lower value trees and leave the better trees and seed trees to flourish.
Good luck with this project.
dougpark1025
Very true. My neighbor had his 7 acres “thinned “. 12”-18” diameter white and red pine 2 years ago.
3 truck loads.
I looks like a bomb went off. No cleanup.
My place was thinned 16 years ago. They took 90 trees. They gave him $10 US a tree.
Then he paid $900 for cleanup.
Break even but healthier stand with no fire waste left behind or bug piles.
Now it’s time to thin again. 2 years ago a 75 mph wind storm topped and/or uprooted 20+ trees that I sawed into lumber.
@@jimmerrithew453 The method of thinning the lesser value/thinner diameter trees is called "Thinning from below" and can be helpful if the "leave" trees are healthy, fat and happy.
Oregon here, with 400 acres of timberlands not far from Eugene. There have been horrific ice storms that did immense damage. We wanted to clean out the fallen or damaged trees and replant. The loggers ended up doing a clearcut (more or less). Here in Oregon, the State Dept. of Forestry is actively involved in these operations to ensure the work meets basic requirements and that the forest is replanted. However: the loggers seem to justify whatever they want to do and once they mobilize, it is hard to stop them. The operational window in our area is very short in recent years due to increased fire problems. It is increasingly difficult and costly to "manage" the forest. The replanting is doing very well and is outgrowing the blackberry vines (for the most part anyway).
Here’s my 10c worth. The more I look at forests like yours, the more I’m convinced Nature has never been tidy, and dead trees are as much a resource for this planet and the creatures they nourish as the live ones are to mill. Keep doing what you do, we love these videos Sandy.
Well said! Big thumbs up to you!
A scattering of snags in the right places are better than a couple dozen live trees for wildlife/forest management.
Yeah, they make great forest fire starters. Ask any Californian.
@@flyingjeff1984 Fire is no stranger to Canadians either.
@@flyingjeff1984 What they make is great wildlife condos -- Snags, under ANY conditions don't "Start" fires.
@@flyingjeff1984forest fires are a natural part of a forest lifecycle. Nature doesn’t care about your California home.
Sandy, two things. As you said, thinning improves the health of the remaining trees. This helps the tree compete against harmful forest insects. It also allows the tree to put wood on the tree at a greater rate. Yes, they grow larger faster. Last and when considering hiring a logger, learn how they will handle the slash. The price you receive is very dependent on that.
Sandy, here is another thought. I had a logger start to clear my red pine 20 acres a few years ago. I insisted that he use low impact logging. Just a tracked skid steer, chainsaws cleared every third row. I could only get pulp price for my pine, so yes I took a loss to start, but now I have exceptional access, can mill the bigger pine as I choose. You will ultimately gain a more efficient process for the rest of your milling. I would get that logger in now.
Excellent advice.
I had my forest thinned in two sales where I made $5000 each. Not much I thought. But I also got road improvements done by the logger and his equipment. Now ten years later my remaining trees have grown rapidly, and since we left the good quality trees, I now have a much more valuable and attractive forest. I am looking at a much more lucrative timber sale in a few years.
Hello Sandy boy how I enjoyed your story we are connected at the hip wish we were a wee bit closer to sit over a favorite beverage and chat and even share equipment, I'm in an identical situation 6hrs and 40 minutes away in the southern Adirondacks with 20 acres and a chance to buy 50 more, at 75 I just retired from my day job to spend my remaining life doing exactly the same as you with a life style of my choosing that no price can be put on.
Sandy, I'm old, I've been thru it before. You want my advice, take the money from the loggers for the health of the forest. You will still have pleanty of blow downs to saw up and the trees you have will grow better. There is no way you can cut what needs to be cut all by yourself. I know it seems like not enough money but any money is better than no money and a bunch of dead trees. Just make sure whoever you have do it, is responsible and knows how to get the job done without trashing the place.
I'm with you MC; although I feel Sandy's pain as well.
I have 80-acres, in the Willamette Valley of Oregon, and I cannot keep up with thinning for health and the blow-downs resulting from a neighbours clear-cut.
It's always a trade-off in Forestry.
Well, what my dad did.. 2003, retired, in SC, 73 yrs old, in northern NY he owned 11 acres of hard wood, hadn’t been logged, since 1958. Was contacted by phone by a logger, who’d walked his lot, wanted to buy, 50 mature hardwoods. ( he said, he’d be selective, for furniture wood) Offered dad, $3000. Dad calls me, asked my advice. I said, I think 50 ,mature hardwoods, is worth more than that, as firewood. Man called 3 times, to coax a deal, even sent pa a video of how he cleaned up all scraps. No signs of his work, except, stumps. Pa said no. Called me one day, he’d spoke with a cousin, his own age, another wood lot, same logger, his cousin, accomplished a better deal… the logger was figuring, 1/3 waste on his logs, meaning some trees were a total loss because, they might split, they might be hollow, they might simply break, dropping.. and no longer good for furniture cabinetry shop. Our cousin knew how to scale logs, so he bartered, board ft., after a tree was dropped.. no sale unless the logger still wanted the tree. My cousin made double the original offer, for the same trees. My father related the story to me, I said, dad you need to ask your cousin to manage your deal, pay him $500, if he’d work the same deal, with your lot. Logger called, after speaking with our cousin, and a deal was set. Pa asked, will you be cutting any spruce, longer said no, just furniture wood. Pa had known these woods, since he was 16. He said , there’s 5 spruce I’d like dropped, so I can get them to a saw mill. (I knew immediately, which 5 spruce he spoke of, because I knew them from when I was about 4 yrs old. It was like a small park, within the 11 acres, with 5 old spruce, and a spring in the center. Logger said, I’ll drop them for free, and, my trucks will deliver your logs to your choice sawmill, for free. You just tell me the length you want the logs, and figure the dimensions for you mill. Pa told me, I’m gonna build a barn..:) I did dads figuring, for dimensions, and gave him plans for a pole barn, 30/40’, two stories, with a 10’ ceiling… pa was excited. Board and batten siding, steal roof. He called me when the spruce came down, and told me to guess, how many logs went to the sawmill. I couldn’t guess, he said, 67 logs, from 5 trees … 1/3 were 12’ long, 2/3 were 10 ‘ long 4 logs were 16’ long. I didn’t realize until that point, they were old growth trees. The $6000.00 he got for his 50 trees, paid a man to build his barn😂
This is the answer right here. Get rid of the junk trees. you really have nothing there.
Great decision, Sandy. I have 200 acres of heavily forested land in east Texas. Our trees are much larger than your red pines and are more difficult to harvest. As a result, I can only harvest limited numbers on my own and for me to saw. I think you will come out ahead by the selective harvest you described. But I would encourage you to stack your harvested trees off of the direct contact with the ground due to the high potential of rot and insect losses. Our state forest agency advises us to spray an insecticide on the harvested trees, at regular intervals, in order to keep pine beetles and such at bay. Good luck with your harvest. God bless you, brother.
In my area even stacking the logs off the ground will get bugs boring into them in 3 to 4 weeks after the tree has been cut down. One of the challenges I have is having to saw the logs in just a few weeks after harvest to avoid this. Sounds like a great spot your'e got there Bob! 200 acres of trees would be a dream!
Id have some one in there with a cut to length processor and forwarder. Clean up the fir and thin the pine. They could do it in a few weeks. Do it in the winter it comes out fine. Around here you would be lucky to find some to do it and pay you. 5k seems pretty good. Almost zero market for pulp wood.
Hello Sandy. You have a monumental task ahead of you no matter what you chose to do. Have you considered sacrificing one or two areas with perhaps a 50-yard diameter to use as a burn location? I know some areas are difficult to get to but perhaps it would help to get the blow downs and standing dead out of the way and not transporting them very far. I think the loggers are thinking of themselves more and how much they can make off of your land. Decisions to be made...... Have good days!
The payoff is that the thinning is being done and access to your property is being built by the contractor. If you section the property correctly you can get an incredible amount of work done in a short amount of time.
Interesting discussion! As a Forest technician I have these discussions with landowners weekly. You mentioned poor access. If you improved access you could sell some logs to generate some income and keep the best logs to saw yourself. Appropriate access adds value to your forest. Plan with your values in mind!
I've been working with the government Forest Technician here in New Brunswick, Canada, since last fall to find the appropriate company to do commercial thinning on my 100 acre lot. He found recommended a company that he was worked with on other projects. I just signed a contract with them. The Technician has bee a great help!
Hi Sandy: I would be curious to know what your forester thinks of your plan. I think you would be way better off finding the right logger, maybe using the cut to length method, selling some of the timber to the mill and also keeping some of the harvested timber that you can mill yourself. Just looking at your workload, I’m not sure you can get ahead of the declining forest health curve without investing in some expensive equipment.
The plan I'm going on was created by a forester. Id consider selling lumber for sure if we could come up with a price but I have a feeling I value the trees more than a logger could pay which I understand. I likely will be able to get ahead somewhat but may have to invest in some bigger equipment to harvest faster
Sandy, you really have done your homework on this process, glad you have a good head on your shoulders, great Video.
Thanks TJ! I appreciate your support
Really appreciated this video, Sandy. Intrinsic value, indeed. I have about 33 acres of which 27+ are woods. Couple acres of white pine, most of the rest is hardwoods (mostly red/white oak, with some beech, maple, hickory, and poplar). All of it was last harvested a little over 50 years ago, so what I have now is ready for another harvest. The pines genuinely need to go as a couple blow over in nearly every storm. I also need to thin the hardwoods. But… I love my forest. Walk through it multiple times a day (when I can). While I enjoy cutting the wood for firewood and lumber (also have the 130max), I do that for my own uses, not for selling. I need to do more thinning to keep the forest healthy, but really don’t want to have it logged. Don’t want the mess, and don’t want to lose my beautiful woods for any price.
The enjoyment of the forest is something that's hard to measure for sure. Just being able to go out and admire and harvest what's needed when you need it is a great feeling.
I so identify with your points.
On my 80-acres, I walk to my stands to thin and salvage, takes more time, but the "sensory upload" is worth the extra minutes to cover the distance.
People do not realize the mess that's left behind FOR DECADES especially if it's hard wood likee oak. Are, the loggers and clean it up but at what expense? Quite high.
I very much enjoyed your video. Seems like you really know what you’re talking about and enjoy doing it. Think smart and make money too ! It’s all part of enjoying life.
Thanks Aisha!
Nice Forest management you're doing awesome job and it's nice to see people that take care of the forest properly instead of these logging companies that strip everything down to nothing.
We are proud of you… you are a wonderful steward of your land… its a real blessing to see young folks like you all be it too few and far between… 👍 keep on keeping on 🎉😊
Thank you Payne and Michella!
Howdy Sandy- I certainly understand and feel your pain. It’s an immense amount of work to do what you’re doing. While I’m not one to give you advice, I do know you have a lot of work ahead of you. I live on the farm my Dad grew up on and I have a huge amount of sentimental value on the trees and land. I wish you the very best with whatever you decide to do and will support you in my thoughts. Take care, be safe and God bless you
Great to hear from you! It sure seems like a monumental task but slow and steady I hope to get there some day!
My advice.. log the entire red pine plantation while you are young to watch the new forest grow.
You have a nearly perfect opportunity to plant a white pine forest. Most of what you just drove me through is young, small, well spaced, Take advantage. Each small space, in between , plant a white pine. Once established they will grow straight up with nearly no branches to exceed the height of the surrounding trees. 30 years they will be bean pole thin 40 feet tall, and just producing their first real crown above the nearby trees. 3 to 4 feet in diameter and 140 feet tall, with 60 feet of clean, clear, straight bole, valuable. For your grand children. Silvaculturalists know they plant for the future. Goes with the job.
You are so lucky to be able to shop for wood in your back yard. A beautiful selection
I agree and understand your selected approach. One other consequence of a logger coming in that I don't think you mentioned is what they leave behind. Down here in the states the loggers use big equipment and leave a torn up mess. Not worth it. Forget the blow down except for exceptional, high value trees and work your plantation trees.
I have a 5 acre stand of woods that I have started thinning myself. Mine are all hardwood. I, like you, value my property and trees. That's why I am doing it myself. I cut 6 trees today, including 3 big white oaks. Those 3 trees will bring around $1000. I also am about to purchase a woodland 126 mill. So I will be sawing alot of the other trees for my personal use and maybe sell some lumber. I just don't want to share the money with anyone else. Lol. I will probably sell most of the white oak and come close to paying for the mill.
Time and money are interchangeable.
I just purchased 153 acre's in East Central Saskatchewan, more than 100 acres is forest. Like you, I have lots of standing dead, and lots on the ground. I'm in my early 50's and I love spending time in the woods. I wish I had the diversity you have as mine is mostly Quaking Aspen, but I will keep thinning and working my body until I can't any more...then I will buy even more toys/tools to keep going. I love it, just like you do! There is a much higher value to the forest for folks like us.
Sounds like a great life right there! It's great work out in the woods working your own land
Great decision Sandy , keep up awesome content my friend cheers 👌🏻🔥🇨🇦
Thanks for all your support!
❤️🙏 Love from Scotland 🙏❤️
This past winter I had my red pines thinned. I had a professional come and mark the trees. A logging company came and removed 1900 trees. 16 trucks. This was our 4th and final thinning. We have all work done after the frost is in so no land gets destroyed. The job took 3 weeks total.
That sounds like a great way to do things. I also would prefer a winter harvest to keep things in tact.
How many acres?
Tough decision here Sandy. Great job illustrating your challenge and outlining the options. Appreciate you sharing the numbers too. Down here in the Southern US I believe many thin every third row in something like a pine forest after 10-15 years. With the young age and slower rate of growth (due to tighter spacing) the first thinning isn't the most profitable. They use the small thin ones for pulpwood mostly down here. But I will echo what other commenters have said in that it will open up the rest of your stand to higher quality growth, and the sooner it is complete the better for the remaining trees. You could also think about selling those first trees as trading them for a few infrastructure improvements, boosting the growth of your stand, and if you come out with a little extra then that's even better. And if you're thinning every 4th row then they are leaving more timber behind than you could ever cut, and the sooner it is thinned the bigger it will grow in your lifetime. That means bigger trees for the mill later, or a much more profitable thinning in 10 years. I struggled with the same thing on our property honestly. We all want to be good stewards of our land, and I have definitely felt the pull to just thin myself rather than hire a logger. Best of luck with whatever path you choose.
good video it's a no win deal. if you do sell put it out on bids and get the money up front. the last timber cutter i got didn't pay for all he cut., they plant trees way to close if they had planted haft as many you could take your time. if you plant any trees do it your self and leave room for trees to grow. take care, be safe and well.
Good decision Sandy.
I'm in N. Michigan and have about the same acreage as you and have also been approached by loggers wanting to harvest my trees.
I recently sold my Woodmizer, but I love my forest and do not want big equipment coming in. You have a nice channel and I watch all of your videos.
Hey John! It would be a shame to have the nice forest and trails torn up for sure. The money sounds nice but it's one of those things I can't really put a value on
@@sawingwithsandy I have never ever known a small woodlot guy say they made a bunch of money by letting a logging company in and harvest their trees. Just my opinion.
I make a living cleaning blow downs. Its a bit scary the amount of trees and forests devastated by hurricanes and strong winds every year. A lot of our forests have been completely cleared at some point in the past but people are not always aware they need to tend their forest gardens. A lot of people own large lands that they've inherited from parents or bought as investments/play grounds but aren't aware of the responsibility for longevity. It's easy and seems to make sense to say "it's a forest it'll grow fine if you leave it alone" and it might be true if it hadn't been cleared sometime in the past. It wont find it's balance by itself since it'll only grow the "fast" growing varieties and choke out any hard woods etc. And the trees will grow tall and thin. Logging is a volumes game. it's crazy the amount of wood cut every year and the size of equipment used by large logging companies. there's a reason we can buy a 2x4 for a few dollars. logger make pennies on a dollar so they need huge amounts. You are already doing more than most so good call to keep going while refocusing your efforts.
Thanks Sandy.
Once You get the thinning done then you can go after the Blow downs.
If You Cant the logs and anchor seal the ends You might delay the bug problem.
Good luck.
Mike M.
Great video and commentary from lots of interesting folks below. As an Ontario RFP, I can appreciate most perspectives . There’s merit in both options .
Hiring A qualified logging professional would be my final vote however , having managed loggers , forests and landowner expectations for many years .
Happy May Long !
Very enjoyable tour through your forest and your thought process. My advice is develop a plan that allows a commercial cut to improve the value of your forest (which you covered quite well), because time is the enemy with a poor quality forest. The plan would leave the work you enjoy most while knowing time is on your side and the value of your stand is improving. I had a commercial cut about 12 years ago and am now able to manage the re-generation that has happened since. That is more enjoyable to me than spending all my time cutting mature trees. The cut also left plenty of mature trees for me to harvest for lumber or to sell a truckload or two to a sawmill. Allow the commercial cut to fund access roads you don't have now. Even if you break even money-wise, you'll have a better forest as a result.
Getting either one of the loggers in for the first thinning will result in a much healthier forest, which in time will produce larger and healthier trees. The larger and healthier trees will return a better investment if you log them and mill them.
Treat the $ 5,500 or $7,500 as a "throw away" and the price to get a healthier forest, as it will pay off long term since you will have access roads for you to do the future 'second thinning'.
I’ve got the same problem, I have an 80 acre Boreal forest. Lots of blowdowns that will return to the ground but that’s ok because it allows light to reach the young saplings.
For sure
Sandy, here in NW Montana, loggers generally are 60/40, of course we are the 40. I harvest my own trees and what made my operation work, was a heavy duty trailer 16' on a tractor, and a 12000# excavator with tongues real simple and low cost. My haul is 1/3 +/- mile so the trailer made it feasible, good luck
That sounds like a good operation there Billy. Nice equipment as well!
You bet, and I have a 10,000# skidsteer with a grapple at the mill, totally living the dream. If you can log yourself do it, to me you need yourself a clipper to make your project happen, it's all about the fuel, takes some fun out of it, good video!
I don't think doing it by yourself necessarily is the best idea. You should het a crew of two (one driving a "smallish" harvester and one driving a "smallish" forwarder) to do that. THEN you can take the Kioti and go cleaning if you want.
There are much better things to do (saw lumber, build stuff or just being with family) than loose money doing it yourself. If you HAVE to do it, it might loose the "fun factor" and what then? You can't cut, clean and move at the same time so it will take "forever" as there will be many trees. Skidding the trees takes a long time and on your trailer you can only take so many trees, it is not made for that.
Conclusion: let someone else thin with SUITABLE machines (it's small trees) and take care of the rest of the woods and your family instead. If you make some money it's nice, the larger money comes when the remaining trees are ready sawlogs 👍🏼🤗!
I just signed a contract with a woodlot management company to do commercial thinning on a 100 acre woodlot I have outside of Moncton, NB. My woodlot has a lot of fir and windfalls. The are going to clear out the fir, thin out the popular and hardwood. This company does not do clear cuts. They select cut. Their harvesters and porters are small wheeled machines that leave minimual impact on the ground. They put the limbs and tree tops on the 16' hauling roads for the porter to run on. The company, which is under contract with the local municipality to manage the water resevoir's watershed woodlots, is environmentally conscience. They identified 10 acres of my land that they will not cut because it is wetland that borders a bog. They also found an active Osprey nest that they created a 50' buffer around so they won't disturb the birds.
In 2 years time they will do another lot cruise to see what trees are regenerating. If needed the Provincial Government will supply the seedlings of the desirable species and pay them (or me) to plant. Then in 15 years they will return to do another harvest.
Their projection is that in 15 years the harvest volume will be greater than the one they are doing now. They are also giving me 12 cord of 8 foot hardwood delivered to my home (about 5 miles away) I've been working with a Forest Technician from the Provincal Wood Marketing Board who helped put this all together. He will be my eyes on the ground doing weekly inspections of the operation to ensure that the conditions of the contract are being adhered to.
They conservatively estimate harvesting 1500 cord of sawlogs, pulp and hardwood. My pay is conservatively estimated at $20,000. 15 year projection is a payout of $31,000 for the second harvest.
The company provided me with a well researched operational plan that impressed me. I am looking forward to working with them.
Cheers! Bill
Sandy I can tell you love your forest! I have a small forest on my farm, but I feel the same way.
Just something about it for sure
Logs stay good for milling for at least a year on the ground. That’s been my experience with spruce in Ontario. So in theory you can drop a ton of trees in a day, make big piles and then mill when you want a break from felling. That way you’re not having so many moving parts in a single day. To fell and mill that includes lots of steps that cost time.
I think you should consider letting the logger thin your stand, the faster it gets thinned the faster the trees left standing will grow. If done right you will have better roads for you to harvest in the future when you are older. Think of them thinning the trees for you and paying you to let them do it
There’s the option of you amping up your production. By this I mean bring in your own help, maybe a second sawmill/location for your natural forest as well. Between the extra money you would make by focusing on blow down and forest cleanup of the natural forest (or what a partner could make) and thinning of the red pine, you could have a heck of a milling operation. Smaller than the big companies but keeping the value and satisfaction for yourself. Just ideas, and I’m sure you’ve thought of it all!!! Thanks for the video!!
The other point they don't mention is the mess and damage left behind. I have had properties logged in the past and reference checking is critical, as is being onsite every day. With that said it is realistic to be honest in what you can accomplish bunkie yourself. If you can find a logger you are comfortable with and proceed you may well find your remaining trees grow quicker and produce more lumber in a few years. Plus the $5500 is better in your pocket now.
That would definitely be a fear of mine. I'd hate to be left with an eye sore and a huge job to clean up
This was an amazing video Sandy,you shared a lot of information with your viewers.I hope it all works out for you
Here in Alabama, we have a few “horse loggers” who use belgiums to haul and drag the logs. Folks bring them in because they are far less destructive and don’t leave the horrible messes bigger companies often do.
I don’t know if that’s even an option, but I would definitely consider it if available, especially for thinning which is really what this seems to need, resulting in bigger, better trees, and will make it much easier to manage yourself.
The smaller stuff will rarely pay much, and it’s mostly “pulp wood”, but getting them out will improve everything about your forest, and end up being very lucrative down the road if you so wish.
@choccolocco who are some of the horse loggers? i'm in north MS, been looking for some
@@sammcalilly107
The main one here locally was a Harmon, he lives in Cleburne county, Alabama. That’s all I remember. If you have a wood yard around, you could probably ask them if they know of any.
I also live in Ontario, have a woodland mills sawmill, have 86 acres of huge white pine, spruce, red pine, huge tamarack etc ~ so basically tonnes of wood. The thing to remember, is that when they come through with the heavy equipment, even if they are careful and logging selectively, they will tear up your land. I mean, leave behind two foot deep ruts in the wet areas and essentially change the character of the entire forest to get what they want. Not their fault, just how logging is done. I assure you, do it yourself, mill the wood, and make MUCH more money. You get the satisfaction, the physical exercise and with a little patience, a good deal for those buying a better quality of lumber, relationships with those who are looking for that kind of rough cut, and enough money to live comfortably. They lowball you so they can seriously profit after expenses. More power to them, but do it yourself. I have an opinion because I live this life fully off-grid and when I figured I'd save some time and have logs delivered ( I know crazy) they wanted $4000 for about 20 logs. Half Pine and half Spruce.
Agreed and good luck !
Thanks Mike
Red pine is an interesting species, height growth in general is the same regardless of density, diameter growth is dependent on density. A first thin happens around age 25, your way long past. Light thinning to start to increase diameter. Try to thin so each individual trees has at least one open side.
Have fun!
Thanks Nate. I"ll be getting down to work as soon as I can and will sure have no shortage of work
Something to consider, most forest management considerations are for cutting the stand at one time and then a re-entry at another specified time. You have the luxury of continual releasing these trees. You might concentrate on cutting full rows first, leaving 3 leave rows, this will release two rows at a time to put on diameter. Walk down the center row and pick dominant trees to grow for the mill, cut a co-dominant competing with the crop trees in this middle row. In time you can work on adjacent rows to the skid trails. Don't worry about the runts not competing with crowns. This should minimize any wind or ice damage.
Simple way of thinking, your wanting to make some space to grow more needles. Needles=wood, extra growth with red pine is in the form of increased diameter growth
I see what you mean about intrinsic value and it's a good point. I didn't realize how little you would make from selling the trees. Such a tiny amount. But at least you have a plan going forward. Best of luck on it working out, not snark, I truly wish you the best. Nice seeing so much of your 'stock' as well. Good vid. Thanks.
Yeah it would be tough for me to justify the sale of them since I enjoy being out there so much working the land
The intrinsic value is priceless - thank you for the reminder! Our neighbor logged maybe three years ago and they left it OK but just doesn’t look the same. The logger wanted to log some of our large tulip poplar on our land. I invited our regional Forster for advice, and as we hiked around, and I saw the majestic beauties and knew immediately that I could not cut them down. The Forster told me they’re about half-life and he thought the bid was quite low. Slowly we are cleaning up and allowing our land to return to the natural state like you. Thanks for your videos. I have learned so much from you - cheers
The trees have no root system to stand up to the winds. To closely planted and not enough different species to break up the winds sort of, I think earlier thinning would have helped your trees quit abit. I have birch, ponderosa pine, tamrack, dog fur, and spruce and a lot of new growth and old growth. The largest tree I just removed was 39" on the butt... hugh, to say the least. Now I have to figure out how to cut it on my 26" woodland mill. You have way more land than I do, and I diffently see your problems. The large cants do shrink, and you do have waste with that, but the lumber is nice, and it allows the tree to dry better. Big decisions, good luck. I know you'll make the right ones. 👍
Yeah earlier thinning would've been ideal for sure. I wasn't owner of the land at that time unfortunately. Those trees sounds like some nice lumber coming up!
Went through the same 15 years ago. And i didnt elect to have my 15 acre pine lot thined. The logger was going to leave 30% of the trees. Many other owner on st joesph island ontario did. Result varied. Many lost to wind damage.. im glad i didnt. Im 70 and have been thinning for 5 years cut nearly 20 th feet. And it felt good then you said you could only do 5 trees a day. Lastly why dont try to get a sponsor for a bobcat feller buncher. Would love to see results of that. Great job on your web and cheers.
My mother claims that my first full sentence as a young child was, “I’d rather do it myself.” I understand your desire to keep the thinning operation in-house. Focus on thinning those red pines for 3 months, give yourself a break of a month or so to harvest the most valuable wood that might blow down elsewhere on the property. Then revisit the thinning for another 3 mmonths, etc. This adds 25% to your timeline, but you won’t feel like you have neglected the rest of your property! Good luck in whatever you decide. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Those are some great tips Frank. Thank you
Howdy Sandy
Well… I really get your hesitation on what to do.. We have 18 acres.. It is a mixture of variety. White pine, Hemlock. Oak (both red and white), Maple and little Birch and now Beech, Cherry very few Popular..I have a ravine with a brook running in it.. So I have to access one side from another road… But away I had it logged about 15 or 18 years ago.. Took mostly White Pine.. Most were monsters (3 to 5 feet at the butt).
Was all done with a machine.. It was funny to watch my tree tops walking around . Hahahaha
They took everything… No mess..
That was how I wanted it…
So was left with all the hardwood an other ones.. Moving to today.. It is a mess… As you know everything thing started to grow… even new white pine…
It it so thick I can hardly walk through it…. So now I have monster oak and Hemlock and they never touched the one in the ravine…
I have been thinking about having someone come in and do some cutting..
It’s a tough decision… I think you know ( maybe not) I have stopped burning wood.. So I don’t cut any more..
I was burning about 5 cord a year.
I am an older the you by quite a few years so I am done.
I know I need to do something but it’s a tough decision for sure..
I am confident you can do it BUT!!!!
Just remember beating up your body now will suck later.. Ask me how I know..
Hahaha 😂 can you say 6 million dollar Man… hahaha not better nor faster.hahahaha
Have fun and enjoy my friend…
Cheers
Sounds like a great property you've got there Guss. You're right about beating up my body. I keep using that to justify for "toys" I mean tools haha
Sandy you’re a good property cost more values.you worked hard.is the best now.keep working.love see how you do jobs
I'd get a few more estimates. You were quoted $500-$800 a truck load. You could meet in the middle at $650. One commenter below had 1900 trees removed on 16 truck loads. Food for thought. It's not easy letting people come on your land.
Thanks for the video. I have a similar problem, in that I am close to Algonquin Park in Ontario, and am dealing with Beech Bark Disease, and trying to harvest and transition the forest before they all die. Beech makes up about 10% of my forest. So many trees, me on my own.
If you start an internship program or some other sort of community organization, you’ll have a willing workforce that will learn and experience a lot about this field.
I had a similar but more troubling experience with a logger offering to harvest my red pine two years ago. I don’t live on my 100 acre property - it’s about 1.5 hrs from my home, and the entry gate is on an unserviced dead end concession road - essentially a private road maintained by the property owners along it. There is a locked double wooden gate with a private property sign on it, but regardless, a couple of guys walked around my gate and into my 1/4 mile lane without a care. Little did they know I had cellular game cameras at multiple points, so all i knew was that there were two guys walking into my property without permission. I called a neighbour but unfortunately he wasn’t at his bush property at the time. Thankfully, the game cameras showed the guys coming back out the lane, carrying nothing more than they went in with. My son lives closer to the remote property than I do, so he went up after work, and there was the logger’s card in the door of our trailer (no cabin yet but soon to come!).
I had intended to call the logger, tell him I wasn’t interested, and also let him know that his entry through a locked gate with a private property sign on it was not appreciated. However, I have learned over time that the last thing you want to do is pi$& off the locals (he wasn’t from the immediate area, but close enough). I just let it ride and didn’t call back. It’s only about 4-5 acres but the pines are very healthy and mostly 10-18” diameter, so I think I would get a decent price, but I want them for myself and my family. The loggers can find another property!
I like your plan to thin your forest yourself, Sandy. I think it will work well for you! I’ll be retired fairly soon and look forward to spending far more time in my forest and on the mill 😁
Wake up if you can’t do the work how much mess will the loggers generate? Good story you should be careful.
A man with a lot of educated insight. Love your content.
I'll suggest you become a member of the Ontario Woodlot Association. Lots of information regarding forest management. The general rule of thumb for logs is 1/3 to the logger/mill, 1/3 to the trucker and 1/3 to the landowner. The price seems to be on par for red pine. You should bring in a forester and have someone mark the trees that you are willing to part with. Once that is done you can then negotiate the price with the logger for those marked trees.
Hi Michael. Thanks for coming along for the video. That is the price hotel logger had said as well about 1/3rd to me. My ongoing issues with selling trees to a logger is the access as it's difficult and wet. I think what I would value the trees at is too far away from market value
Making any money on thinning is a bonus. Not doing it yourself is the point. If you want to turn the thinning into a profit with your own sweat, sawmill, it's a decent return, and you have the time, go for it.
Last time we checked on pricing for a 4th row thinning of Loblolly Pine in Southern Arkansas we were looking at around $250 an acre in return. Most of that would go back into fertilizer typically.
Like you, my 17 acre forest is a bit difficult to get to so it's not worth it for a logging company to come out. However, I am on the border of 250 acres of the same plantation. I'm hoping to get mine thin at the same time they do.
Hi Sandy!!😀😀
I still say you really should let the loggers do your first thinning for you so it gets done in a timely fashion. There will still be more than enough for you to saw lumber out of after they are done. Leaving the tops of the tree 6 inch diameter and under is going to create a larger bark beetle infestation in those tops witch can cross over to the stands live trees and kill them.
Speaking from a professional perspective you really need to bite the bullet and get it done. The sooner the better!!
Take care my friend!!😀😀💚💚
Logger Al
We had a lot of these Red pine planted forests in Northwest Michigan, where I used to live.
And when they would partially log them out, there would be a lot trees that would bend over,
I suspect it’s because they don’t have as much strength because they’re so closely planted. They don’t get as much wind resistance to build strength.
Interesting point, I’ve heard Red pines are among the fastest rotting woods! And I’ve seen that first hand cutting them on my Norwood sawmill that I had.
You’re missing an important part of your evaluation process-opportunity cost. Taking less money but getting back a tremendous amount of time will likely result in higher total income. Then there’s the overall health of the forest. How much do you set back the forest health because it takes you 3-5 years to do what a logger can do in a couple months? What does that delay cost you for decreased growth of the remaining trees? You’ll never keep up with the blow downs anyway. Just food for thought.
I agree the best situation is to thin now but I think the value I place on harvesting the trees myself is greater than the value anyone could pay me for them
Hire a forester. They will establish a harvesting plan based on your needs/wants, get you the best price for what you decide and manage the harvest to ensure the loggers only harvest what was agreed upon. They’ll take a cut, but seems well worth it to make a healthy forest.
Nice video, nice forest. You really like the forest so if you don’t need the money then keep it and manage it. It’s your happy place, and would be mine too if I had it. All the best what ever you choose to do with it.
I have owned timberland in Northern California for over 50 years. I also have a Woodmizer LT 40 hydraulic, which I do some milling with. In our "neck of the woods", in today's market, I would be very happy to take the $500/ truck load for my pine. We have Ponderosa pine whch is much larger than what I see in your woods. Mt advise...take the $500/load. Just make sure you are there counting the trucks!
If you are gonna do It your self is has to be now. It is way overdue. But they are so small having a logger in will not gain you much money. if you can sell a lot of the bigger but logs to a mill it will move the project along and give you some money for future projects. Thinning is slow work getting them down and out without damaging other trees. Keep us on board with your progress.
Absolutely. Since I wasn't here back when the trees could have been harvested originally, I"m playing catch up.
@@sawingwithsandy Hard to keep up when you are not there LOL.
I'm working overdrive now haha (glad the sludge is strong)
I don't know how old you are but as you age productivity slows down. I am a 40 yr carpenter retired. I am 71 and get tired just thinking up projects. Good luck.
I agree, Sandy that's not enough money to consider selling your logs. I would focus mostly on thinning the red pines slowly but surely and just enjoy life. life is short and we should enjoy it to the fullest every chance we get.
There's absolutely no way that I feel you should let a logging company on your land for $4000 (US)!!! Their 30% probably ends up closer to 40%, and they will damage (kill) another 10% so you are left with 1/2 of YOUR trees left, and YOU are left with ALL the mess!!! Your Red Pine Forest will be nothing more than a disaster area!!! Have you ever counted how many trees are in each row?? Those rows look pretty long, times 1/4 of the number of rows perpendicular to those rows, winds up being an awful lot of trees!!! On the flip side, if you can harvest 3 - 8 foot lengths of 6-8 inch diameter logs per tree, it still takes 15-20 trees for a full cord! Now I'm not sure of how big of loads he was talking, but a 14 cord load could take almost 300 trees!! A little over a dollar per tree!! I totally agree with your way of thinking, and for that amount you can give them away or burn them up with Canada's largest wieny roast!!!
I would let the loggers take it for nothing with the agreement to sign a contract to clean up the mess, bulldoze the junk they don't want into piles, with the idea to let the sun in. You would not believe how much the ground holds for seeds until a cat and logging equipment spins around a few times. Do several areas, you need some clearings bad. Clearings are what the wildlife wants & what the tree seeds want, have some space in the woods.
I think the thinning will probably improve habitat for wildlife as well. I have come to grips and accepted that I will not get everything I want to get done in my forest in my lifetime. But I enjoy the work and my forest here in Colorado.
This is a tough call to make, Sandy. During your video I kept thinking there must be a compromise in there somewhere between potential money received, damage (or needed upgrades) to your access roads, and your own time. I'm with you on the desire to do it yourself, but man, that's a lot to bite off and chew for one guy. At what point would it become a daily grind to do it vs. a joy and a passion? My thought is you hire a couple of guys to help you down, limb, and buck the trees into something you or others could use. You could mill some lumber, make some firewood, and not end up doing nothing else for the rest of your life. A man's gotta have some fun in his life! You might need to branch out and sell lumber and firewood, though. Fun times, brother. Good luck!
You should check with the local forestry management department in Ontario. I know in NB= SENB is the location. There is programs out there for thinning your forest. That maybe an option for you as well.
Hey Sandy. I would never do that . I think you would have a hard time watching them take all those trees …your trees Don’t do it . Thanks for sharing. Craig. Pa.
I think I"d regret my decision the second I saw the relatively untouched forest turned into a commercial job site. I like logging but I don't think I would like the what might happen in the event I chose the wrong logging crew
I'm insanely jealous of your forests and the rotting vegetation. I'm in South Aussie, it's just dry here, not enough moisture to rot anything. The only reason that timber breaks down is because of the white ants, and they can eat through almost anything even our iron wood
Hi Sandy, I know what you mean about the blow downs we've had our share too. Thinning out is hard work and even with all the equipment you have you are a one man band and you are proud of it. I stand behind you 110% on what you decide to do. Hang in there - you eat an elephant one bite at a time as the saying goes. If you have watched the TV show Waltons the adage there was Quality over Quantity from the mill, and Sir you do Quality work. Stay safe! listen to your heart, its your land, your forest! Cheers John
Small bites, small steps, I"ll get there! Thanks John!
Selling the trees for $5500 will improve your forest significantly. In fact if you got nothing from the thinning by the foresters you would be better off with the trees gone. Your thinned forest will be so much more productive and approachable you will love it. There is enough deadfall and future deadfall in your other forest that you can improve and get better wood for you to process... Good luck.
Great video Sandy, you’ve got a lot of property there, nice! ✌🏼❤️🙏🏼
Thank you!
Some good ideas. I got to the point last year where I cut larger slabs just to get some downed logs processed. What about posts, beams, and maybe poles for your pines? The prices were outrageous and considering the mess they'll make on your land, it's not worth it. Double it and consider. They'll also cherry pick and take the best trees
Buddy, go with you gut, if you don't need the money, keep it. I've logged in BC all my life, those loggers aren't being fair, at all. Go to the local mill figure what that timber is worth to them per meter, meters per load, etc. Here in BC a load of logs, is approx. 5-7K per load, depending on quality, species, etc. Not sure what it is there. I would plunk away at it like, you, are doing, looks like you're having fun. I have a good time watching what you are doing, reality TV. Cheers.
Equipment and help is necessary to make faster progress.
Get yourself a three point mount timber winch with a 2 hundred foot cable.. I have 100 acres of hardword in the Bruce and it is rugged hilly terrain.. Cut the tree and pull it to the trail .. Sure saves time trying to get to the log...I owned a woodmizer for twenty years.. Saw your small logs down to 4 inch cants especially cedar. You definitely cantnot leave your cut pine long as the worm will get into the wood. Best to do pine in the winter.. You can mill the larger logs into cants and let dry as long as you mill them a little larger for shrinkage.. If hardwood paint or oil the ends.. I also had an Woodlander 130 max for three years.. Not bad saw; I would call it a high end hobby saw since it has no hydraulics to move the log plus the frame will want to flex if left on a trailer package.. I sold it to the Amish and the owner immediately made a better up/down system.
It should be you #1 priority to get the dead stuff out just in case a wildfire comes through, and you lose EVERYTHING.
Some of the fallen you have NO use for you could find a person near you who could turn them into salt and pepper shakers/mills, ash trays, candy dishes.
PLUS make woodchips and sell them for landscaping.
I've given this some great deal of thought. Loggers have one job in mind, harvest logs and get them to the mill, not so much concerned about what they leave behind, a mess. You're not going to like the results and it'll take a decade to clean up all the debris. Their equipment is awesome but will tear up your ground something awful. In my mind, you have made a wise decision Sandy. 👏👏👏
Not always had our maple farm harvested and can't even tell they where here except for a thinned only maple forrest. No mess at all.the landing was left clean and landscaped.. Just have to hire a good wood contractor with a skilled crew. The money is never what you think the wood worth , we went threw same thing.
Hi Sandy, As a forester with over forty years of practice and twenty acres of my own red pine plantation in NE Pennsylvania, I will reaffirm all those who say you made the right decision not selling to a logger. Interestingly, I had my first visit in 18 years by a logger this spring who offered to thin my plantation. We never got as far as price because his equipment is ten feet wide and I also have a high water table like you. It was a "no go" once I found out his plans.
Rule of thumb down here is to take no more than twenty percent of your stocking (stems) per thinning in order to hedge against windthrow. That would be one row in five if you are row thinning.That`s enough to get your tractor through and reach in two rows for a selection thinning when you get through the stand the first time around.
Back to loggers; most of the commercial equipment out there now is geared to high production. It is big and high powered. A stand such as yours is not suited to benefit from this type of equipment and what you have for equipment is probably ideal because of the low impact on your soils. Once your average diameter at breast height (dbh) is fourteen to sixteen inches, It may be worth having a logger come in, but by then you'll have about forty to sixty red pines per acre. In the interim, enjoy your woodlot and keep sawing.
I think the consensus is get her done, but keep control of the process so you get the forest you want at the end of it, and if you do better than break even it will be a wise investment that will repay itself many times over the future.
Perhaps a less intensive line thinning by the crews leaving you to do the selective thinning in between the rows?
Good luck.
Thank you for the ride along through your forest!!! Prepping for insulation in our building is the priority, but this video sure makes me want to go play with forest clean up and trail making instead! LOL We don't have quite the same species diversity, but an old growth natural forest is a happy place no matter the species count and location.
I agree with ya! It's a great feeling getting out in the woods!
@@sawingwithsandy we need to come up with a skidsteer/tractor mounted tree stripper that can limb and maybe cut logs to speed up processing. I reached out to a manufacturer with a couple ideas, maybe a small scale semi-affordable solution can be figured out to make the most time consuming and miserable part of the process easier and faster.
I see big fancy heads for excavators, but lil guys like us could use something smaller/cheaper to just help strip the poles faster and maybe log as the run through.
Seems to me that you working alone and with the present equipment or maybe some better machinery will not be able to get the thinning done on the Red Pine forest as quickly as it needs to be done. I know you will get it eventually but looks to me that they need it done now. Or before now. Even if you break even on the thinning you will have a much healthier and valuable forest. imho.
Yeah for sure. The red pines are past due for thinning. I'm a bit limited by my workforce (me) and equipment but I think with time I"ll still be happy with the results
Alot of ground clean up and a large enough excavator could help you accomplish alot. Besides loading the logs on a trailer would save you loads of time and work.Since everything new is expensive that might not be practical.I have the woodlands hm 130 except not in use. Those woodmizers or Norwood with log turners and debaters would be nice.Lumber capital has two young woman do a good job sawing
Man I feel your pain. I have a hard time just keeping up with my down trees. Truthfully, I am not sure I am keeping up. It never ends.
I'm with ya on that one!
Piling up some of the blow down and letting it rot is healthy for the forest and you could try growing mushrooms for profit as well.
I liked your tour and management option discussion. Always different priorities to sort through. My state has property taxes and harvest taxes. Do want to have better truck access to your forests? How many trips a day to a mill can a log truck do in a day? In thinning your forest does the bark firm up in August so you do less damage while thinning (timing issue for me)? Is one of your species worth more per thousand board feet more than the others? Perhaps hire a logger to do a limited harvest on your mixed species stand while you are thinning your red pine... Good luck, I will be tuning in.
I'm content with the access I have to my forests although I"ll likely put down some stone on some of them to make them a bit easier to access in the wet months. Things do firm up in the dry months luckily for me. The red pine are valued the highest currently according to other wood species at the sawmill (according to the logger) . Thank you for tuning in and all your ideas. They're much appreciated
Wind throw is a big problem in cleaning up. Lots fall because they have stared to rot, so your millable material is lots less than you would think. I am to the point of thinking I will just start to clean up the blow downs by piling them into wildlife piles for the logs to rot down and be animal shelters. It is a long slow process with atv and arch to get around, but at least I feel better about those areas. We cut a few millable standing trees while we are in an area to help get around.
The wildlife do like the blowdowns for sure. Long slow process, I agree with ya there
hi there lots of interesting points . best of luck to you , john