Talking about moving stones. I am a Czech living in NYC. And I brought with me several granite stones (loaf size) from my cradle mountains - Isegebirge. It is thousands of miles away. Several decades ago I lived for some time in Kentucky and found some beautiful limestone fossils - took them with me to Prague and then with us again to NYC. That fossil crossed the Atlantic twice!
Except it was analysed in a lab, from a sample that broke off of the Altar Stone in the 1800s. So either you worked a security nightshift over 150 years ago, or the scientists were doing something else that night.
@jimsmart2522 Yes, when there is a Pre-Civilization, that is undoubtedly 460,000 years old, then [even the scientist in me would want to sneek in & explore]; these; [Worldwide Megolithic Society's]; (that were Megadisastered under]!
No, it was last Septemberish. They were inside the circle all night. So what were they doing.? I'm half certain they said "altar stone"...Oh, and the bloke wasn't Welsh...
They never took a sample of the altar stone, they used a piece taken in 1800s , they don't even know if the sample is legit. It was found in a shop labeled as a piece of the altar.
To Michael’s point, I wonder if the stones were part of different ‘tribes’ contribution to the communal monument of Stonehenge. As different tribes joined in the use of the facility, did they bring the stones with them to add to it? With the skills they had in working stone, there is no reason to doubt they had the skills to build a wooden sledge capable to move the stone using traction animals or human power. If large numbers of individuals from the area of Scotland where the stone originated were making the pilgrimage to Stonehenge, could they share in the work of pulling the stone?
I visited Stonehenge back in 1997, and my half-sister told me that they roped it off because some dude wanted a souvenir and chiseled off a piece. It only takes one person to ruin it for everyone.
I would favour the idea that the alter stone was transported from Orkney; and that the concept of 'stonecircle building' that preceded it, also originated from Orkney.
One more thing: about sandstone. As a sedimentary stone, it tends to split quite readily along its layers, or at least all but the hardest varieties do. This makes it a good choice if you want a large piece of stone that can easily be cut into a cuboid shape - or at least, one with a level top and bottom surface, if that's what you're after.
I live in indiana in the US. The underlying rock is Limestone. It is the habit of many here to get attached to large rocks (granite and similar). It's perfectly normal to take them with you to a new property.
There’s a big difference between where it came from from and how it got there, and there’s no reason that stones couldn’t have been part carried by glacier and part carried by people
Stefan Milo did a video on the stone as well and talked to the Australian they mention in the video. Apparently the glaciers flow the wrong way and would have taken it further away.
At Newgrange County Meath Ireland, they have found a large stone, destined to be kerb stones at one of the sites, in the River Boyne providing evidence that the stones were moved by raft. It’s assumed that the one found in the river ended up there through a mishap and could not be recovered. Living in the north of Scotland and observing the terrain, I really can’t see a 6 tonne stone being dragged all the way to Wiltshire. The bogs would be worse than the hills, once the stone got stuck in a bog, there is no way it was coming out.
@@helenamcginty4920 Depends on the era. We're talking about several ice ages here, going back many hundreds of thousands of years, and different ice flows at different times within each ice age. The problem is that many archaeologists want to discredit geomorphologists. And they usually succeed with their fantastic stories.
A few years ago, I moved from Wales to Portugal and couldn't leave a lump of white quartz behind. The attachment and meaning given to stones is completely understandable; perhaps they have been transported for millennia.
I can relate to that. I like to collect stones from campsites across the southwest US and bring them home to the garden. I hope it's noticed by future archeologist here.
Fascinating. I was really struck by the thought that an overlamd route was chosen in order to involve the maximum number of people... a sort of slow olympic torch relay
That was my first association too. Then I started to imagine this huge procession, kinda like a Catholic Saint Day's procession. Not limiting myself by any notions of historical accuracy 😆
With the question 'how can we move them?' being answered by a local farmer at the Brodgar's Gate dig. _'Well, locally we use sea-weed as lubricant when we need to move a large stone to the edge of the field!'_ [ paraphrased ] The local knowledge is still there.
I got myself involved in a mildly contentious back and forth about the possibility that it is a glacial erratic, on the BBC video announcing this. I will, straight off, state that, I have no idea what the geologic history of the Salisbury area is, but it does have features of being an area where glaciers deposit the passengers they have dragged along. mostly gravel and sand with the occasional, but not infrequent, boulder. in areas of N America there are house-sized boulders that have been brought long distances in the (if you will) bowels of the ice sheets that advanced and receded over the terrain. the British Isles were subjected to similar glaciation, so... sidebar: one thing that the Beeb didn't make apparent, that you two do, is that it is the *oldest* stone at the site. it sort of follows that, if the neolithics came upon it in the middle of an otherwise unbouldered area, they would remark upon it and maybe start a little club around it... which over the millennia morphed into what we now call Stonehenge
@@kidmohair8151 I'm not sure that glacial ice fronts pushed as far south as Salisbury during the 2.6Ma Quaternary Ice Age. It would likely have been close though.
There is significant evidence for neolithic waterways from the period of construction of Stonehenge. If the alter stone could be transported by sea to the River Avon, the last bit by land becomes quite plausible. The "crazy geology" of the British Isles would have encouraged the early use of waterways for routine transport. Random stones could have been used as ballast to stabilize seagoing vessels. This might explain the use of random foreign stones for construction.
You do much seafaring around the uk coast? If you did, you'd understand massive 6 ton stones were not transported around the coastal waters of Britain.... overland = hard, over sea = not a chance! Glacier moved most of the way = probably!
My friends boat was 6 tons, the water bobbed it around like a tennis ball. If they could get rhe stone on a big enough raft then their might be a possibility. I'm not arguing, just sayin'😊
if long distance cattle droving was happening in the neolithic, the stone could have come with the cattle. we know that cattle in the 1200's AD were driven from Northern Scotland to southern England
The findings didn't surprise me, I was lead to believe that henges and stone circles started in Orkney and travelled south. I wonder how many other circles across the UK and Ireland have stones from there.
Am I remembering rightly that stones in the Ring of Brodgar have themselves been brought from different parts of the island or some even from nearby islands? I have a very vague memory of some documentary that said this, but I’m not sure.
They do a fantastic history with all of your questions answered on this channel, from memory I think its called standing with stones. Have a scroll though.
I agree that the stone was brought from Scotland as a participatory offering symbolizing cooperative ties between North and South. But then this is only a gut feeling.
Granted, the little bio of Henry Herbert Thomas (around 8 mins. into the video) was probably written no later than 1935, ( Reference #3 in the Wiki article on HHT, from which that wording seems to have been taken) and thoughts on the capabilities of ancient peoples has changed a bit since then, but couldn't help getting caught up in the irony of the ancient people referred to as "primitive" and the following discussion of how sophisticated the ancients probably were. I'm glad to be living during a time when ancient peoples are appreciated for confronting and overcoming such challenges. It is all about the people.
Not to forget that the "glacial erratic" idea is also plausible - although I've heard a number of arguments saying the flow was the 'wrong way' - which I find difficult to rationalise.
Don't apologise. You were correct. Southern England is covered in glacial erratic boulders. This video is following the silly narrative and ignoring basic geological information and knowledge.
@@lazzymclandrover4447 ice-flow during the glacial phases would have been broadly southerly. The maximum reach south would have been to a line from Cotswolds to East Anglia
The Stone of Destiny (scone) I read in a 1930's geology booklet suggested it was from either Ireland or Argyll, with a strong likeness to the doorstone in Dunstaffinage Castle in Argyll 🏴👍
The transport of the stones from distant points to the Stonehenge site argues for a single social-religious order of some sort prevailing over most of Britain at that time. That's quite interesting in itself. Cattle traction seems quite plausible. If the oxen could sustain something like 10 miles a day, that's only about six weeks to bring the stone from Scotland.
Love you guys. Why do I constantly read across archeology similar words such as these: “Europe’s oldest battlefield” may have seen warring groups from hundreds of miles apart. Tollense Valley in northeast Germany was the scene of a battle around 1,250 BC, which involved up to 2,000 people - a huge number for that period. Archaeologists studied the bronze and flint arrowheads found at the scene and realized that while most were of local design, many were of a type usually used by tribes from what is now southern Germany, 500 miles away. The discovery suggests that southern warriors, or even a southern army, were involved, hinting at a regional conflict between what could have been early kingdoms, and suggesting that the professionalization of war began earlier than previously believed." Key point being "earlier than previously believed" Have we always thought that we only became "intelligent" large brained hominids in the last 10,000 years? We seem to see things on a much shorter time span than even 10,000 years.
the huge variety of stone across Britain is the reason why there is so much hydrocarbons under the sea bed of the North Sea. btw Scone is pronounced Scoone, as in noon. and in Diskworld its called the Scone of Stone :)
@@helenamcginty4920 no you are correct. its the tortured nature of the geology which traps the HC's in "Anticlines etc" its this tortured geology which is also why we have such a large variation of stone in britain. eg, Peterhead = pink granite, Aberdeen = Rubislaw white granite, Dunnotter = Grey granite, Dundee = red sandstone, Fife = Whin stone, Edinburgh - yellow sandstone etc.
I think it is Incredible to think that the estimated population of Britain c2750B.C., when Stonehenge was thought to be started was about 25,000 (about the population of a small modern town).
I still prefer the glacial erratic theory. Collecting them from around Salisbury Plain and setting them up on end, is quite conceivable. But a small tribe, fighting local people who "owned" the special stones on their own territory, and then dragging them south for 100's of miles through other, possibly hostile, territory is much less likely.
An old friend has the answer. A gang of stone movers in the north of Scotland had a bright idea. One of them had visited his great aunt further south and seen timber circles. There was no timber round where they were. Why not go one better and use these stones they had cleared from the land to build the farmer an impressive stone circle. Make some more cash. Tax free. They convinced him he needed a stone circle. When they had finished they found they had a couple of stones left over. So, enterprising tarmacers, oops sorry, stone removers that they were went down the country a bit till they came to the next farmer with a stony bit of land. Convinced him to let them clear it for bed and board. Then told him about his neighbour's stone circle........ And ended up at stone henge still with some gash lumps of stone collected along the way. A similar group of entrepreneurial stone shifters had sprung up in Wales when whispers of the Scottish gangs reached them. They had planned a big get together on Salisbury plain. Plenty of food and beer. Bring the wife and kids.....
The people who feasted at Durrington Walls ate pork from all over the UK, including Scotland. This demonstrates that there were good communication and travel routes across the length and width of the UK. This is based on Strontium analysis of pig teeth found in pits on site. People knew when to set off to ensure they arrived in time for the feasting which also indicates this was a regular thing.
Is it possible that this stone was an altar stone at many other sites of worship before being stolen/liberated to grace Stonehenge ???. It would mean its journey could well have taken centuries before it found its final resting place & would be a viable explanation for the distance traveled.A stone that was seen as that important may well have gained its importance by being stolen/liberated many times over just like the stone of Scone. My second point is everyone is talking about the distance & the difficulty in the ground covered but nobody is mentioning the diplomacy needed to drag 6 ton of stone across different territories held by different Chieftains for the length of the country. This is yet another reason I believe my theory of a more staged slower migration south is good alternative theory
The *real* mystery is how those hunter-gatherers managed to carry millions of tons of sandstone from Wiltshire to Northern Scotland. And why they left one stone behind. Seriously, here is another theory. The altar stone was carried by glaciers to its current position, or at least to that general area. The first people to get there were impressed by its size, isolation, and unusual material (much like Ayers Rock in Australia, the Sphinx at Giza, and many other natural features around the world). Maybe also by its orientation, accidentally perpendicular to the sun's path. So they made it a ceremonial center, an altar for sacrifices [translation: the butchering and buffet table for the communal barbecue parties]. That is, Stonehenge began as a mere Stone; the Henge was added gradually over the following millennia. Eventually the altar stone became buried by dirt that was eroded from the surrounding earthworks and pooled inside the circle. Or it was intentionally buried, totally or partially, and used as the foundation for a bigger wooden altar [table].
I don't have any big stones, though I have dug out and moved by hand, levers and patience, some pretty ones (think large wing chair size) when I was younger and pregnant and determined to make a flat area behind our house for my car. Thanks to learning from my grandfather when as a young child I watched him move ton weight machinery. From his old laboratory to his new one. I also have three small stones with me from the Three Kings Island in memory of my uncle and the adventure we had getting them. So I see no problems in people moving even larger stones around.
Got introduced to this channel via the Gobekli Tepe video. Love this channel so far. This is the second video I've seen on the altar stone(first being Stefan Milo), and I have a question that a simple search was not able to answer too well and was wondering if there is more info elsewhere? Do we know what boats they had at the time that would have been able to do this voyage with a 6 ton stone? I found a reference to the "Ferriby Boats" that date to roughly the end of the development of Stonehenge(2k to 1600bc) and the "Dover Bronze Age Boat"(1550BC), and reference to a boat in the Netherlands dated to 10k BC, the precise size of the latter craft is not mentioned.
As touched upon, England's Grooved Ware culture originated in Orkney and spread southwards, indeed the group that built Stone Henge have been directly connected to Orkney's Grooved Ware Culture. Those who visit the Neolithic sites of Orkney's are immediately taken aback by the spectacular sandstone dwellings they built their lives around. Speaking of connection to the local geography, the sandstone was indeed central to thier lives, they built their civilization up from it. If we find these ruins magnificent today one could only imagine how the peoples of that time beheld them in their pristine state and the connection they had to this raw sandstone material that afforded them shelter and distinguished them from every other Neolithic people's and cultures throughout England. Perhaps this could provide more context to the Grooved Ware's connection to this sandstone.
the stones directly opposite the recumbent stones at Easter Auquhorthies and Cothiemuir are also sandstone. I wonder if they come from the same location?
I agree that these stones must have come from different places around the country. If this was a meeting place and a place of gathering and ceremony, it would make sense that all the areas and people be represented. All would feel a part of the place by part of their landscape being involved with the building of this monument. If the Orkney sites were the original sacred spaces, it would make sense for the alter stone to come from there.
Was any thought about the alter stone being a Glacial Erratic from years before?? *** Oh well now . . you cover the topic in some detail. *** Never mind
The idea was summarily dismissed by the authors who insist that the glacier flowed north. But this is a simplistic model. There were different directions of flow over many thousands of years. This video also ignores glacial erratic movement. Ridiculous unscientific waffle.
I thought that there were serious concerns that the Welsh stones may have been transported eastwards through glaciation and serious doubts that the places identified by Parker-Pearson are actually quarries. The first question should be was the altar stone transported through natural processes rather than was it carried by land or sea! As a proud Welshman nothing would give me greater pleasure than the thought of my ancestors, dressed in white robes with long pointy beards, teleporting stones across the country but you have to rule out natural processes first before taking these giant leaps of imagination and speculation.
I don't think they brought it all the way, maybe they used kettle or horses to move it from the former place, where it first was found after the last ice age.
Why is everyone so baffled about the huge amount of labour involved in constructing ancient monuments when nearly everyone these days works a 40 hour week, nearly every week of the year, or at least knows someone who does. If anything it should be the ancients who are baffled with us :D
Transporting a large stone from Orkney to Stomehenge wouldn't have been that difficult for Orkney folk back then, especially if you considder the number of cattle remains that were discovered a few years ago in the Stonehenge area, that originally came from Orkney... And if it did come from Orkney, then I would think if would have more than likely come from somewhere around Vestrafiold Hill in Sandwick or could have possible been taken from the big building that was at The Ness of Brodgar site at the time when the site was abandoned...
Not sure what the rest of the world does, but America has trucks crisscrossing the country with rocks of all types and sizes to sell in stone yards. I used to walk past a house and their western desert city lot was paved in man sized slabs of sparkling silver hematite. Another had a chunk of garnet mountain, probably Canada, a red glittering rock the size of a car. Archeologists in the future will have a fit.
It would be a pretty powerful political statement to drag that thing down from the Orkneys and erect it on the Salisbury Plain. Say by someone who wanted to assert their rule in the area. Then later, it's another political statement that it gets laid down and used as a stepping stone as the final stone works of Stonehenge gets done by some new kind of political power.
I think a sea route down the Atlantic coast for the altar stone would be very, very risky with the seafaring abilities at that time. Punting a big raft down the coast would require a lot of manpower and knowledge of the coastline. Perhaps these people had greater maritime skills than we know of. But using cattle to drag it overland seems more in line with the pan Britain communal effort that appears to be the Stonehenge site.
From the plan of Stonehenge in that article, there seems to be several other parts of the monument that are made of sandstone. What is the provenance of those stones? If they have the same origin as the Altar Stone, that pretty much rules out transport by humans, and confirms glacial transport. The discussion about the direction of flow of the glaciers is misguided. The best way to determine that flow is to trace the location and origin of the rocks they deposited. If rocks from Northern Scotland are found in Wiltshire, that is strong evidence that the glaciers flowed from the former to the latter.
The stone was stolen from Scotland and taken to England. Gee, I wonder where they got that idea from? Stealing gods in their physical statue form was a Roman war tactic.
If it isn't a measurement problem, I believe the stones were brought together from all over the place to build house. Like the pillars at Gobekli Tepe.
PS: Actually, I just figured it out- they transported the stone the same way they shift the stones for the pyramids. Piece of cake, we just don't know how :-)
@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo It could just as easily be a stone, reused, from place to place which ended up at Stonehenge. There may be no significance to the stone or where it's from. Simply being found in a location doesn't determine why it ended up there Not even the academics studying stonehenge can say what that stone was for. "Altar stone" is just a colloquial description, not a determined use.
We can't eliminate the possibility of a glacial erratic.. but I doubt it. I think it was transported by various means. Sledge, simply dragged/hauled by humans and beasts of burden, sometimes utilizing waterways(?), possibly even on log rollers.. the means being whatever worked best in the terrain over which it was moved. Human ingenuity and persistence to achieve a desired task is nothing new. Don't sell our ancestors short. They were no less intelligent. If humans could move large local stones across difficult terrain from point A to point B.. the can move it to point L, Q, W or Z.. it just takes a bit longer. We humans have (and had) the capacity to achieve amazing and wonderous feats when we put our minds to it and are working toward a common goal. Be Well!! 😃
@@jono1457-qd9ft the sarcens were not moved far.. about 16 miles.. Seems the consensus is the blue stones were moved from Wales.. 150'ish miles. The altar stone seems to be the topic.. If it was an erratic from nearby, which is entirely possible, then the Scotland theory is wrong. My point is that if they could move it a short distance, they could move it a long distance. The difference being time and effort. If it meant enough to them, then the old saying "where there's a will, there's a way" makes it plausible. Even if all the stones were 100 meters away, it still remains a remarkable feat. Be Well!! 😀
@@jono1457-qd9ft I understand that.. Washington State has a plethora of erratics that originated in Canada. I am not familiar with the distribution of erratics that originated in Scotland that were deposited in southern England and I did not realize that they are so common as to make the possibility of humans 5000 years ago choosing to transport one that may have held some significance to these ancient people entirely implausible. My point was that it was an interesting and not impossible theory. If humans in other ancient societies could move large stones hundreds of miles over difficult terrain, why would the ancient people who inhabited what is now Scotland not be capable of achieving a similar task? I understand your point of "why would they? there are similar stones in the area." If they are eaaily obtained, then yes.. no need.. Would the people have been capable of moving a stone that size over a long distance if it had some meaning to them? Yes.. If they felt it was worth the effort.
@@michaelfritts6249 At the peak of the ice ages, the ice around the British isles was thousands of feet thick. Ice flows continued for many thousands of years in various directions depositing erratic boulders over many southern counties of England. Unfortunately there is a cult of denial around the subject amongst many of the researchers. Also the human transport hypotheses are very romantic and therefore very appealing to mainstream media and thus get a huge amount of coverage.
I could imagine the altar stone fell from the ice sheet wall, at the very height of its expansion. And the people saw it happen. Now, it was sacred. or "We're moving, pack yer bags." - "I'm bringing me stone." - "Are you daft, we can't carry six tons of stone on er backs." - "I say you can't. You're too weak." - "....." "Its a challenge, then..."
The step from 'six cows can easily drag a 6 tonne stone' to 6 cows could drag a 6 tonne stone from the far north of Scotland to Southern England' may be missing the significance of providing an actual route to do this. Awful lot of marshy ground and large mountains between the two location. Would be very interested to hear how well developed road networks might have been at the time. If this stone were really moved overland it would suggest that road networks were pretty good.
@@fennynough6962 Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without actually saying "I have no idea of what '6 tonnes' of rock looks like". 600 cows to move a relatively small rock? yeh, righto.
Neolithic boats could carry tonnes. With comparatively few people. And much, much further in one day than walking in a roadless week. Some of the Marmotta boats, which are a couple of thousand years older than Stonehenge, are around 10 meters, 30+ feet long. It’s thought these particular boats may have had sails.
@@eh1702 yeh, have to say, my money would be on moving these stones by water rather than land. I doubt it would be lifted onto a boat though, more likely a raft built around the rock at low tide, which the sea would then pick up with the tide. Still a huge challenge though, our coastal waters are very tricky to navigate, lots of bad weather and nasty rocks. At least the land is predictable. Really boils down to how good the 'road' network was at that time in comparison.
According to the Ness of Brodgar webiste, there seems to be a consensus of some type of civic disruption across Orkney around 2900BC, an intensification of (less expert) monument building, including some locally-developed modifications in types and some adopted types - followed by a few generations of a lull. When things picked up elsewhere in the islands, it seems it didn’t around Brodgar, although it wasn’t altogether abandoned. Structure 10 collapsed around 2800, was shoddily rebuilt, and structures 1 & 12 went out of use about a century later. Intermittent dumping of midden material after that. To me, that suggests that people just saw it as a site/locale rather than a “place”. The giant feast of cattle legs around 2400 seems to be the absolute finale. (I always think that looks suspiciously like a victory feast / genocide by wholesale cattle slaughter, a forerunner of the habit of “haughing” your enemy’s cattle. But that’s just me.)
Wow, what a response, thanks. From memory, Stonehenge started with the bluestones around 3000BCE, followed by the sarcens around 2500BCE. It makes sense to me that the altar stone was probably installed during the sarcen construction period. If bluestones were known to have come from Preseli, when re-designing the layout, a representative of long distance allies/relatives may be appropriate.
I can see them being able to float such a stone, even if they had to lash a platform across two watercraft. To me, the problem would be the moving of a slow heavily laden boat down the coast. It would have to use patches of favourable weather to move between safe harbors, whether enclosed bays or estuaries--and they would have to be very safe indeed! Early anchoring technology consisted of a killick--a wooden grapnel made from natural crooks of tough wood with a rock lashed to it for weight--not extremely reliable when the wind comes on to blow! While pulling your boat up the beach out of reach of the waves might have been a common tactic--but with a six ton rock on board it would be out of the question. A bit of a bounce on a hard beach with a great weight on board could break the boat in half. Waiting out bad weather or contrary winds up the esturies of small rivers would be safe. You could tie up to the shore. And how special was this stone before it left Scotland? If it was already of great spiritual significance--risking losing it at sea might be more than they would care to contemplate. I like the idea that people along the entire land route might participate in the moving of the stone as an act of communal worship. Moving it over marsh and mountain might convey special blessings on those taking part.
As a sea goer myself, the chance a 6 ton rock was floated from North Scotland to southern England is as likely as it fell from the moon via Scotland and landed slap bang in stonehenge !
Another question is,would the stone be brighter when polished,would it have created a white or red vertical line when polished or perhaps it was very dark creating a silhouette,which helped in measuring the sun's surface/transition. Maybe it was not originally vertical
Im not sure if there is a glitch here but i cant see my replies ..Juts saw Time Teams news program its a new thing on youtube its the same old faces from the old Time Team and they say it was probably brought down by boat and it has been proved prehistoric people can cross the Penland Firth in a cow skin boat or dug out and it would only take 10/15 people but to drag it all the way from Orkney you need about 300 people
I suspect that the alter stone (and the other stones) were relocated to Stonehenge for symbolic purposes. My guess is that they utilized a common religion to maintain the unity of related people who've migrated to different locations. Sort of like the Catholic Church using common symbology in their churches and distributing relics.
I suspect the same but kinda reversed. In Scotland we know that there were several different unrelated lots of neolithic colonists very near each other. Some left no detectable later trace (settlements or genetics). In other words, colonists origins lay in different parts of the European, British & Irish seaboard and some colonies probably failed. Then later some different types turn up, perhaps with a different lifeway that can adapt better to that micro-locality. As you say, having some big, all-inclusive events would give different groups who may have arrived with different languages (eg from Brittany or the Netherlands) common cultural ground, shared memories of the events (sports? feasts?) and out-marrying opportunities.
So again we see the layering of these Civilizations; with the oldest culture often buried 20 to 30 feet underground. Why then is the Megolithic Megablock society always grouped with a society that is 12,000 years or younger?
Mr. Pearson has made so many strange conjectures over the years. Watching him working with Time Team over the years he always offered the most 'over there' ideas. Some I could agree with, others, too armchair archeology for me.
If they dragged the blue stones from the Preselis why are some of them of such a poor quality of stone, they would have surely chosen the hardest and most durable rock rather than a mixture of Dolerite and Rhyolite,some being very soft which would rapidly weather and crumble. Maybe they came in the Pliocene glaciation rather than the favoured much later Pleistocene.The ice sheet possibly flowed down the paleovalley and possibly resting the rocks in the vicinity of the Cursus. Geologists have never explained the large block of dolerite found 12 miles from stonehenge in an earthen longbarrow. I have always loved the idea of neolithic people mowing stones over huge distances but to me glacial action seems more likely
Even in The Netherlands in my city big stones are found and traced back to Scandinavia. My city is known as the Boulder city and the people from Amersfoort are referred to as 'boulder draggers'. This is because one such stone was found in the 17th century and the local Duke decided to play a joke on the poor people. He claimed it was essential for them to drag that thing into town square and then laughed at them for carrying it out. The Amersfoorters then decided to be proud of it and have been collecting exotic boulders ever since. These rocks were simply brought here by glaciation. Prehistoric people or neolithic had so much more appreciation for stone than we do. They even found Egyptian points made from comet material from outer space. They found Upper Paleolithic tools with fossils imbedded and respected during the flintknapping. How did it get there seems like an irrelevant question knowing how important stones were for our ancestors. And knowing what later people do moving stuff around. Even today there are people obsessed about it and doing all sorts of stuff. Prehistoric people such as the Solutreans and Magdalenians are known for using the rarest of materials available. And they found stuff that was displaced by glaciers as well. So some stone travelling from Scotland down to Stonehedge is merely a small fact and does not mean people were bringing it there at all. Not to mention how bloody stupid it would be for the Stonehedge people to waste their energy on that. What strikes me is that nobody is even considering earlier glaciations other than the Last Glacial Maximum. Stones were transported many times like this. And consider the pathways of glaciers during such events....they would lead from Scotland down to Southern England....... So in order to research this so called 'Altar' we should examine how suitable this material is for making tools first. If it is not suitable for points, scrapers and other tools people may well have decided to use it for a structure, simple as that.
Thanks for your comment - very interesting! We did actually include the earlier glaciations in our reckoning. As I said in the piece, the last glaciation would have carried the Orcadian basin stones northward and the earlier, Anglian advance of 450m years ago would have carried anything out to the west. The ice in both cases on the east of the side did not travel south - unless it originated much further down. Over on the west, it is a different story and as we mentioned, there are erratics from the north west of Scotland on the N. Devon coast. However - you've then still got a problem of selection and transportation over hunderds of miles. Michael.
The thing is, this non-local stone is immediately surrounded by other non-local stones that certainty were brought by people, not glaciers. The second thing is that it comes from an area absolutely abounding in Neolithic monuments, including stone circles that were built centuries before the orginal wood iteration of Stonehenge The two together are suggestive.
@@ThePrehistoryGuys I posted twice the link but youtube seems to be blocking it first of all, how did the prehistoric people get to Orkney in the first place ? They didnt walk thats for sure .And it 2016 a bunch of Orkney scientists people sailed across in a beautiful calm see in a cow hide boat with 5 people in and it took 4.5 hrs it was to actually prove every bodies point that prehistoric people can cross the sea .so you dont need endless days of good weather ,one day will do it.. If they had a 4 tree catamaran dug out canoe lashed together they could easily cross with a 9 ton rock and then they could crawl down the coast stopping every 4 hours making sure the boat is sailing good and they dont get caught in a storm, camping in bad weather until its finished .
You. guys seem to have forgotten about the analysis done on cattle bones and teeth from Stonehenge.They have already identified that some came from N Scotland.Case closed. Btw Mike PP’s work has not been found wrong. .Simply questioned which is fine. ( by a bitter man).
Maybe ancient folk stories, of the united lands (Cantre'r Gwaelod, Doggerland etc), made folk think that if they "reunited parts of the land" they would again, reunite the land - (and I'm a brexiteer - but I study pre-christian religion) - very different times.
It really makes me wonder whether some kind of politics wasn't at play here - negotiations, alliances, treaties, cooperations, trade agreements… all nicely dressed up with a bit of fun and fancy ritual, just to make it stick. Sounds kind of normal, wouldn't you say?
@@forestdweller5581You are assuming that there is no ritual significance to the stones' origins. You are assuming that the accomplishment is not significant. Since the stone came from an area where building in stone was highly skilled and sea travel also I feel my view to be well supported that the builders of stonehenge came from Caithness in a boat with the altar stone as ballast
Re glacial erratics: is it being assumed that the stone only came from Scotland, or are the experts considering geology that might be under the North Sea or even the Atlantic Ocean as a source for the stone ? And are they only considering the Late Devensian glaciation of 22000 years ago, or previous glaciation periods ? Glacial Erratics are so named by the fact they seem to be randomly distributed; I still think Glaciation or even Ice Rafting might be the cause for the Alter stone being moved, even if it wasn't to its present position, but moved in by people from somewhere relatively closer than Scotland.
Have you seen this watercolor of what Stonehenge looked like in ~1575: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stonehenge_Lucas_de_Heere.jpg Note the ditch around the site and the two mounds in the foreground...
To me, the selection ofStones for Monuments especially, had the Properties of Stones having Critial importance in the Selection Process, and clearly having nothing whatsoever to do with Where certain Stones Came from ? So from that Perspective what Properties does Northern Scotland Old Red Sandstone Have, that Old Red Sandstone from the Gower Peninsula, Pembrokeshire, or anywhere Lack ? as finding Out what that Alter Stone Has or Doesn't Have as Properties, I suspect is going to Turn Out to Be Far more important, than Our Present State of Knowledge and Understanding might Suggest ? Face it, at the Time these Monuments were related, we are.ooking at Damned Serious Engineering Projects, that were both time and Labour intensive, and we just don't yet grasp the importance of just why they went to such lengths in my honest opinion. Best Wishes. Bob. 🤔🌟🌟🌟👍
Could it be possible that the altar stone was transported part of the way and had been part of another monument for many years and then at a later time was transported the rest of the way?
Talking about moving stones.
I am a Czech living in NYC. And I brought with me several granite stones (loaf size) from my cradle mountains - Isegebirge. It is thousands of miles away.
Several decades ago I lived for some time in Kentucky and found some beautiful limestone fossils - took them with me to Prague and then with us again to NYC. That fossil crossed the Atlantic twice!
👍🌅
My grandmother’s family is from that mountain range, but from the Getman side. It’s a beautiful area, hard to understand why they left.
I was doing a shift at Stonehenge when the scientists were analyzing that stone. Nightshift, security. They were up all night.
Except it was analysed in a lab, from a sample that broke off of the Altar Stone in the 1800s. So either you worked a security nightshift over 150 years ago, or the scientists were doing something else that night.
@jimsmart2522 Yes, when there is a Pre-Civilization, that is undoubtedly 460,000 years old, then [even the scientist in me would want to sneek in & explore]; these; [Worldwide Megolithic Society's]; (that were Megadisastered under]!
No, it was last Septemberish. They were inside the circle all night. So what were they doing.? I'm half certain they said "altar stone"...Oh, and the bloke wasn't Welsh...
@@JimBagby74 No u can't. Too tough a job for u 😁
They never took a sample of the altar stone, they used a piece taken in 1800s , they don't even know if the sample is legit. It was found in a shop labeled as a piece of the altar.
To Michael’s point, I wonder if the stones were part of different ‘tribes’ contribution to the communal monument of Stonehenge. As different tribes joined in the use of the facility, did they bring the stones with them to add to it?
With the skills they had in working stone, there is no reason to doubt they had the skills to build a wooden sledge capable to move the stone using traction animals or human power. If large numbers of individuals from the area of Scotland where the stone originated were making the pilgrimage to Stonehenge, could they share in the work of pulling the stone?
I'm convinced that taking stones from places as a sort of souvenir is an intrinsic human behavior. I'm one of those humans!
And a tendency to throw coins and other items in springs, fountains and pits at significant sites.
Tourists bringing padlocks and locking them to landmarks is another.
I visited Stonehenge back in 1997, and my half-sister told me that they roped it off because some dude wanted a souvenir and chiseled off a piece. It only takes one person to ruin it for everyone.
Weighing several tons?
If it has sufficient meaning to a suitably large group of people, yes.
I would favour the idea that the alter stone was transported from Orkney; and that the concept of 'stonecircle building' that preceded it, also originated from Orkney.
Waiting for winter and drag on ice would make it way easier.
That's my hypothesis since 35 years, I am 51.
Why mention your age? Only people 70 plus do that.
@@DS-xg9kf Well, I am 51 and I do it. Deal with it.
@@Padraigcoelfir but why is necessary to tell the world, and how is your age relevant to your comment?
Scotland here, its never icy all the time even in winter.
But they could have decided it was a decades long project. 😊
@@Ln-cq8zu How was it 2000, 3000 years ago or like Stone henge 5000 years ago?
One more thing: about sandstone. As a sedimentary stone, it tends to split quite readily along its layers, or at least all but the hardest varieties do. This makes it a good choice if you want a large piece of stone that can easily be cut into a cuboid shape - or at least, one with a level top and bottom surface, if that's what you're after.
I live in indiana in the US. The underlying rock is Limestone. It is the habit of many here to get attached to large rocks (granite and similar). It's perfectly normal to take them with you to a new property.
Yes!! When I move, I'm going to need a front end loader to complete the job😂
We do that in Colorado, too!
Great episode, and FINALLY an application for Isotope Geochemistry from 1998!
There’s a big difference between where it came from from and how it got there, and there’s no reason that stones couldn’t have been part carried by glacier and part carried by people
Stefan Milo did a video on the stone as well and talked to the Australian they mention in the video. Apparently the glaciers flow the wrong way and would have taken it further away.
At Newgrange County Meath Ireland, they have found a large stone, destined to be kerb stones at one of the sites, in the River Boyne providing evidence that the stones were moved by raft. It’s assumed that the one found in the river ended up there through a mishap and could not be recovered. Living in the north of Scotland and observing the terrain, I really can’t see a 6 tonne stone being dragged all the way to Wiltshire. The bogs would be worse than the hills, once the stone got stuck in a bog, there is no way it was coming out.
Agree, terrain is key to a lot of this. It all needs to be considered.
I wonder if the altar stone had a history and significance even before it was moved to be placed in Stonehenge.
That stone might have been found as a glacial erratic anywhere north of a line from the Cotswolds across to East Anglia
@@Julian_Wang-pai Yes, there are thousands of them on the surface and who knows how many more buried underground?
This was addressed at the end of the video.
Seems unlikely given that ice flows in NE Scotland went north east.
@@helenamcginty4920 Depends on the era. We're talking about several ice ages here, going back many hundreds of thousands of years, and different ice flows at different times within each ice age.
The problem is that many archaeologists want to discredit geomorphologists. And they usually succeed with their fantastic stories.
A few years ago, I moved from Wales to Portugal and couldn't leave a lump of white quartz behind. The attachment and meaning given to stones is completely understandable; perhaps they have been transported for millennia.
I can relate to that. I like to collect stones from campsites across the southwest US and bring them home to the garden. I hope it's noticed by future archeologist here.
Another delightful discussion. Your good cheer is always a welcome addition to the day.
Fascinating. I was really struck by the thought that an overlamd route was chosen in order to involve the maximum number of people... a sort of slow olympic torch relay
Excellent suggestion!
That was my first association too. Then I started to imagine this huge procession, kinda like a Catholic Saint Day's procession. Not limiting myself by any notions of historical accuracy 😆
With the question 'how can we move them?' being answered by a local farmer at the Brodgar's Gate dig.
_'Well, locally we use sea-weed as lubricant when we need to move a large stone to the edge of the field!'_ [ paraphrased ]
The local knowledge is still there.
Awesome, 👍
But not a 1,000 miles or even 100 miles me thinks 😊
I live on a small island in the Pacific Northwest USA many kinds of rock and soil all from a glacier or two.
Sarsen is a type of very hard sandstone. They knew what they were doing ,when they sourced the materials they wanted.
I got myself involved in a mildly contentious back and forth
about the possibility that it is a glacial erratic, on the BBC video announcing this.
I will, straight off, state that, I have no idea what the geologic history of the Salisbury area is,
but it does have features of being an area where glaciers deposit the passengers they have dragged along.
mostly gravel and sand with the occasional, but not infrequent, boulder.
in areas of N America there are house-sized boulders that have been brought long distances in the
(if you will) bowels of the ice sheets that advanced and receded over the terrain.
the British Isles were subjected to similar glaciation, so...
sidebar: one thing that the Beeb didn't make apparent, that you two do,
is that it is the *oldest* stone at the site.
it sort of follows that, if the neolithics came upon it in the middle of an otherwise
unbouldered area, they would remark upon it and maybe start a little club around it...
which over the millennia morphed into what we now call Stonehenge
@@kidmohair8151 I'm not sure that glacial ice fronts pushed as far south as Salisbury during the 2.6Ma Quaternary Ice Age. It would likely have been close though.
Stonehenge the result of a "little club!" I love that idea 😂
There is significant evidence for neolithic waterways from the period of construction of Stonehenge. If the alter stone could be transported by sea to the River Avon, the last bit by land becomes quite plausible.
The "crazy geology" of the British Isles would have encouraged the early use of waterways for routine transport. Random stones could have been used as ballast to stabilize seagoing vessels. This might explain the use of random foreign stones for construction.
You do much seafaring around the uk coast? If you did, you'd understand massive 6 ton stones were not transported around the coastal waters of Britain.... overland = hard, over sea = not a chance! Glacier moved most of the way = probably!
My friends boat was 6 tons, the water bobbed it around like a tennis ball.
If they could get rhe stone on a big enough raft then their might be a possibility.
I'm not arguing, just sayin'😊
People pushing on frozen ground or waterways is also plausible @@fghjjjk
if long distance cattle droving was happening in the neolithic, the stone could have come with the cattle. we know that cattle in the 1200's AD were driven from Northern Scotland to southern England
The findings didn't surprise me, I was lead to believe that henges and stone circles started in Orkney and travelled south. I wonder how many other circles across the UK and Ireland have stones from there.
Am I remembering rightly that stones in the Ring of Brodgar have themselves been brought from different parts of the island or some even from nearby islands? I have a very vague memory of some documentary that said this, but I’m not sure.
They do a fantastic history with all of your questions answered on this channel, from memory I think its called standing with stones.
Have a scroll though.
I agree that the stone was brought from Scotland as a participatory offering symbolizing cooperative ties between North and South. But then this is only a gut feeling.
Once the basics, food, shelter, safety are satisfied, other things become important, achievement, religion, spiritualism, art, etc. etc.
😊
Ive worked with Highlanders.
They are tough.
Need four of them to move that.
Granted, the little bio of Henry Herbert Thomas (around 8 mins. into the video) was probably written no later than 1935, ( Reference #3 in the Wiki article on HHT, from which that wording seems to have been taken) and thoughts on the capabilities of ancient peoples has changed a bit since then, but couldn't help getting caught up in the irony of the ancient people referred to as "primitive" and the following discussion of how sophisticated the ancients probably were. I'm glad to be living during a time when ancient peoples are appreciated for confronting and overcoming such challenges. It is all about the people.
Not to forget that the "glacial erratic" idea is also plausible - although I've heard a number of arguments saying the flow was the 'wrong way' - which I find difficult to rationalise.
Yeah, I should have watched more before commenting - lol
Don't apologise. You were correct. Southern England is covered in glacial erratic boulders. This video is following the silly narrative and ignoring basic geological information and knowledge.
@@lazzymclandrover4447 ice-flow during the glacial phases would have been broadly southerly. The maximum reach south would have been to a line from Cotswolds to East Anglia
The Stone of Destiny (scone) I read in a 1930's geology booklet suggested it was from either Ireland or Argyll, with a strong likeness to the doorstone in Dunstaffinage Castle in Argyll 🏴👍
The Scot’s will be having that back then 😂
I knew you'd be getting on this one
18:18 Bollocks. And it's Alder stone. This was educational.
The transport of the stones from distant points to the Stonehenge site argues for a single social-religious order of some sort prevailing over most of Britain at that time. That's quite interesting in itself. Cattle traction seems quite plausible. If the oxen could sustain something like 10 miles a day, that's only about six weeks to bring the stone from Scotland.
Love you guys. Why do I constantly read across archeology similar words such as these: “Europe’s oldest battlefield” may have seen warring groups from hundreds of miles apart. Tollense Valley in northeast Germany was the scene of a battle around 1,250 BC, which involved up to 2,000 people - a huge number for that period. Archaeologists studied the bronze and flint arrowheads found at the scene and realized that while most were of local design, many were of a type usually used by tribes from what is now southern Germany, 500 miles away. The discovery suggests that southern warriors, or even a southern army, were involved, hinting at a regional conflict between what could have been early kingdoms, and suggesting that the professionalization of war began earlier than previously believed." Key point being "earlier than previously believed" Have we always thought that we only became "intelligent" large brained hominids in the last 10,000 years? We seem to see things on a much shorter time span than even 10,000 years.
the huge variety of stone across Britain is the reason why there is so much hydrocarbons under the sea bed of the North Sea. btw Scone is pronounced Scoone, as in noon. and in Diskworld its called the Scone of Stone :)
I thought hydrocarbons were plants. Am I wrong?
@@helenamcginty4920 no you are correct. its the tortured nature of the geology which traps the HC's in "Anticlines etc" its this tortured geology which is also why we have such a large variation of stone in britain. eg, Peterhead = pink granite, Aberdeen = Rubislaw white granite, Dunnotter = Grey granite, Dundee = red sandstone, Fife = Whin stone, Edinburgh - yellow sandstone etc.
Loved The Fifth Elephant and the deep dwarfs.
Don’t forget Koom Valley!
Yes yes I can listen when at work ossh
Thank you!
I think it is Incredible to think that the estimated population of Britain c2750B.C., when Stonehenge was thought to be started was about 25,000 (about the population of a small modern town).
I think that is an underestimation by at least a factor of ten.
pronounced as 'Scoon' the town is also 'Scoon' the cake is called a scone
And never scoan!
@@alangknowles certainly not north of the border!!
I still prefer the glacial erratic theory. Collecting them from around Salisbury Plain and setting them up on end, is quite conceivable. But a small tribe, fighting local people who "owned" the special stones on their own territory, and then dragging them south for 100's of miles through other, possibly hostile, territory is much less likely.
An old friend has the answer. A gang of stone movers in the north of Scotland had a bright idea. One of them had visited his great aunt further south and seen timber circles. There was no timber round where they were. Why not go one better and use these stones they had cleared from the land to build the farmer an impressive stone circle. Make some more cash. Tax free.
They convinced him he needed a stone circle.
When they had finished they found they had a couple of stones left over. So, enterprising tarmacers, oops sorry, stone removers that they were went down the country a bit till they came to the next farmer with a stony bit of land. Convinced him to let them clear it for bed and board. Then told him about his neighbour's stone circle........
And ended up at stone henge still with some gash lumps of stone collected along the way.
A similar group of entrepreneurial stone shifters had sprung up in Wales when whispers of the Scottish gangs reached them. They had planned a big get together on Salisbury plain. Plenty of food and beer. Bring the wife and kids.....
This reminds me of the British Museum vid here about Mesopotamian smugglers. We often do forget to keep it real, don't we, when we imagine the past.
The people who feasted at Durrington Walls ate pork from all over the UK, including Scotland. This demonstrates that there were good communication and travel routes across the length and width of the UK. This is based on Strontium analysis of pig teeth found in pits on site. People knew when to set off to ensure they arrived in time for the feasting which also indicates this was a regular thing.
Is it possible that this stone was an altar stone at many other sites of worship before being stolen/liberated to grace Stonehenge ???. It would mean its journey could well have taken centuries before it found its final resting place & would be a viable explanation for the distance traveled.A stone that was seen as that important may well have gained its importance by being stolen/liberated many times over just like the stone of Scone.
My second point is everyone is talking about the distance & the difficulty in the ground covered but nobody is mentioning the diplomacy needed to drag 6 ton of stone across different territories held by different Chieftains for the length of the country. This is yet another reason I believe my theory of a more staged slower migration south is good alternative theory
People did do things over a long time - building walls and such. The problem is the roads. Sea must be more likely (?)
The *real* mystery is how those hunter-gatherers managed to carry millions of tons of sandstone from Wiltshire to Northern Scotland. And why they left one stone behind.
Seriously, here is another theory. The altar stone was carried by glaciers to its current position, or at least to that general area. The first people to get there were impressed by its size, isolation, and unusual material (much like Ayers Rock in Australia, the Sphinx at Giza, and many other natural features around the world). Maybe also by its orientation, accidentally perpendicular to the sun's path. So they made it a ceremonial center, an altar for sacrifices [translation: the butchering and buffet table for the communal barbecue parties].
That is, Stonehenge began as a mere Stone; the Henge was added gradually over the following millennia.
Eventually the altar stone became buried by dirt that was eroded from the surrounding earthworks and pooled inside the circle. Or it was intentionally buried, totally or partially, and used as the foundation for a bigger wooden altar [table].
I don't have any big stones, though I have dug out and moved by hand, levers and patience, some pretty ones (think large wing chair size) when I was younger and pregnant and determined to make a flat area behind our house for my car. Thanks to learning from my grandfather when as a young child I watched him move ton weight machinery. From his old laboratory to his new one.
I also have three small stones with me from the Three Kings Island in memory of my uncle and the adventure we had getting them. So I see no problems in people moving even larger stones around.
Got introduced to this channel via the Gobekli Tepe video. Love this channel so far.
This is the second video I've seen on the altar stone(first being Stefan Milo), and I have a question that a simple search was not able to answer too well and was wondering if there is more info elsewhere?
Do we know what boats they had at the time that would have been able to do this voyage with a 6 ton stone? I found a reference to the "Ferriby Boats" that date to roughly the end of the development of Stonehenge(2k to 1600bc) and the "Dover Bronze Age Boat"(1550BC), and reference to a boat in the Netherlands dated to 10k BC, the precise size of the latter craft is not mentioned.
As touched upon, England's Grooved Ware culture originated in Orkney and spread southwards, indeed the group that built Stone Henge have been directly connected to Orkney's Grooved Ware Culture.
Those who visit the Neolithic sites of Orkney's are immediately taken aback by the spectacular sandstone dwellings they built their lives around. Speaking of connection to the local geography, the sandstone was indeed central to thier lives, they built their civilization up from it.
If we find these ruins magnificent today one could only imagine how the peoples of that time beheld them in their pristine state and the connection they had to this raw sandstone material that afforded them shelter and distinguished them from every other Neolithic people's and cultures throughout England.
Perhaps this could provide more context to the Grooved Ware's connection to this sandstone.
the stones directly opposite the recumbent stones at Easter Auquhorthies and Cothiemuir are also sandstone. I wonder if they come from the same location?
I agree that these stones must have come from different places around the country. If this was a meeting place and a place of gathering and ceremony, it would make sense that all the areas and people be represented. All would feel a part of the place by part of their landscape being involved with the building of this monument. If the Orkney sites were the original sacred spaces, it would make sense for the alter stone to come from there.
Do we know that ALL the Sarsen stones came locally? Sarsens can be found in many locations in the UK. Maybe the good folk of Kent sent one or two?
This stone may well be linked to the Warren Field Neolithic calendar, it’s alignment is a link, and Warren Field is in the Orkadian Ring.
Was any thought about the alter stone being a Glacial Erratic from years before??
*** Oh well now . . you cover the topic in some detail. *** Never mind
The idea was summarily dismissed by the authors who insist that the glacier flowed north. But this is a simplistic model. There were different directions of flow over many thousands of years.
This video also ignores glacial erratic movement. Ridiculous unscientific waffle.
I thought that there were serious concerns that the Welsh stones may have been transported eastwards through glaciation and serious doubts that the places identified by Parker-Pearson are actually quarries. The first question should be was the altar stone transported through natural processes rather than was it carried by land or sea! As a proud Welshman nothing would give me greater pleasure than the thought of my ancestors, dressed in white robes with long pointy beards, teleporting stones across the country but you have to rule out natural processes first before taking these giant leaps of imagination and speculation.
The more ridiculous the hypothesis, the more media exposure it seems to gen.
I don't think they brought it all the way, maybe they used kettle or horses to move it from the former place, where it first was found after the last ice age.
cattle?
@@alangknowles It was a Magic Kettle ! ( like Gong's " Pot Head Pixies and the Flying Teapot" ? )
Why is everyone so baffled about the huge amount of labour involved in constructing ancient monuments when nearly everyone these days works a 40 hour week, nearly every week of the year, or at least knows someone who does. If anything it should be the ancients who are baffled with us :D
Thanks
Transporting a large stone from Orkney to Stomehenge wouldn't have been that difficult for Orkney folk back then, especially if you considder the number of cattle remains that were discovered a few years ago in the Stonehenge area, that originally came from Orkney...
And if it did come from Orkney, then I would think if would have more than likely come from somewhere around Vestrafiold Hill in Sandwick or could have possible been taken from the big building that was at The Ness of Brodgar site at the time when the site was abandoned...
Not sure what the rest of the world does, but America has trucks crisscrossing the country with rocks of all types and sizes to sell in stone yards. I used to walk past a house and their western desert city lot was paved in man sized slabs of sparkling silver hematite. Another had a chunk of garnet mountain, probably Canada, a red glittering rock the size of a car.
Archeologists in the future will have a fit.
It would be a pretty powerful political statement to drag that thing down from the Orkneys and erect it on the Salisbury Plain. Say by someone who wanted to assert their rule in the area. Then later, it's another political statement that it gets laid down and used as a stepping stone as the final stone works of Stonehenge gets done by some new kind of political power.
I wonder how they knew to bring it? It might point to how it was transported.
I think a sea route down the Atlantic coast for the altar stone would be very, very risky with the seafaring abilities at that time. Punting a big raft down the coast would require a lot of manpower and knowledge of the coastline. Perhaps these people had greater maritime skills than we know of. But using cattle to drag it overland seems more in line with the pan Britain communal effort that appears to be the Stonehenge site.
From the plan of Stonehenge in that article, there seems to be several other parts of the monument that are made of sandstone. What is the provenance of those stones? If they have the same origin as the Altar Stone, that pretty much rules out transport by humans, and confirms glacial transport.
The discussion about the direction of flow of the glaciers is misguided. The best way to determine that flow is to trace the location and origin of the rocks they deposited. If rocks from Northern Scotland are found in Wiltshire, that is strong evidence that the glaciers flowed from the former to the latter.
Will the Scottish folks want the altar stone back?
Wonder if there are any marks carved into any of the surfaces?
They chose it for its dielectric properties
Who ever could have moved these large stones?
The Romans have entered the chat...
The stone was stolen from Scotland and taken to England.
Gee, I wonder where they got that idea from? Stealing gods in their physical statue form was a Roman war tactic.
Strong animals like elephants or horses, maybe kettle.
The Romans did not even know about glaciation.
We built all the standing stones before the Romans arrived.
If it isn't a measurement problem, I believe the stones were brought together from all over the place to build house. Like the pillars at Gobekli Tepe.
PS: Actually, I just figured it out- they transported the stone the same way they shift the stones for the pyramids. Piece of cake, we just don't know how :-)
Just because the altar stone is from Scotland, does not mean that it was brought from Scotland, specifically, for the purpose of Stonehenge.
Scottish stones have been known to travel back and forth vast distances!
Almost certainly stolen by the English. You can't trust them.
Stoned Canadians travel all over as well. No one brings us.
What other reason would it have been brought south for?
@hetrodoxlysonov-wh9oo It could just as easily be a stone, reused, from place to place which ended up at Stonehenge. There may be no significance to the stone or where it's from. Simply being found in a location doesn't determine why it ended up there Not even the academics studying stonehenge can say what that stone was for. "Altar stone" is just a colloquial description, not a determined use.
We can't eliminate the possibility of a glacial erratic.. but I doubt it.
I think it was transported by various means. Sledge, simply dragged/hauled by humans and beasts of burden, sometimes utilizing waterways(?), possibly even on log rollers.. the means being whatever worked best in the terrain over which it was moved.
Human ingenuity and persistence to achieve a desired task is nothing new.
Don't sell our ancestors short.
They were no less intelligent.
If humans could move large local stones across difficult terrain from point A to point B.. the can move it to point L, Q, W or Z.. it just takes a bit longer.
We humans have (and had) the capacity to achieve amazing and wonderous feats when we put our minds to it and are working toward a common goal.
Be Well!! 😃
The stones were already nearby, so they were moved a short distance and assembled.
@@jono1457-qd9ft the sarcens were not moved far.. about 16 miles..
Seems the consensus is the blue stones were moved from Wales.. 150'ish miles.
The altar stone seems to be the topic..
If it was an erratic from nearby, which is entirely possible, then the Scotland theory is wrong.
My point is that if they could move it a short distance, they could move it a long distance.
The difference being time and effort. If it meant enough to them, then the old saying "where there's a will, there's a way" makes it plausible.
Even if all the stones were 100 meters away, it still remains a remarkable feat.
Be Well!! 😀
@@michaelfritts6249 Erratic boulders could come from Scotland. The authors are in denial about Glacial erratic movement.
@@jono1457-qd9ft I understand that.. Washington State has a plethora of erratics that originated in Canada.
I am not familiar with the distribution of erratics that originated in Scotland that were deposited in southern England and I did not realize that they are so common as to make the possibility of humans 5000 years ago choosing to transport one that may have held some significance to these ancient people entirely implausible.
My point was that it was an interesting and not impossible theory. If humans in other ancient societies could move large stones hundreds of miles over difficult terrain, why would the ancient people who inhabited what is now Scotland not be capable of achieving a similar task?
I understand your point of "why would they? there are similar stones in the area."
If they are eaaily obtained, then yes.. no need..
Would the people have been capable of moving a stone that size over a long distance if it had some meaning to them?
Yes..
If they felt it was worth the effort.
@@michaelfritts6249 At the peak of the ice ages, the ice around the British isles was thousands of feet thick. Ice flows continued for many thousands of years in various directions depositing erratic boulders over many southern counties of England. Unfortunately there is a cult of denial around the subject amongst many of the researchers. Also the human transport hypotheses are very romantic and therefore very appealing to mainstream media and thus get a huge amount of coverage.
Is it from Orkney?
I could imagine the altar stone fell from the ice sheet wall, at the very height of its expansion. And the people saw it happen. Now, it was sacred.
or
"We're moving, pack yer bags."
- "I'm bringing me stone."
- "Are you daft, we can't carry six tons of stone on er backs."
- "I say you can't. You're too weak."
- "....."
"Its a challenge, then..."
The step from 'six cows can easily drag a 6 tonne stone' to 6 cows could drag a 6 tonne stone from the far north of Scotland to Southern England' may be missing the significance of providing an actual route to do this. Awful lot of marshy ground and large mountains between the two location. Would be very interested to hear how well developed road networks might have been at the time. If this stone were really moved overland it would suggest that road networks were pretty good.
Maybe 600 Bulls would be able to move a 6 ton rock, (6 cows); not a chance.
@@fennynough6962 Tell me you have no idea what you're talking about without actually saying "I have no idea of what '6 tonnes' of rock looks like". 600 cows to move a relatively small rock? yeh, righto.
Neolithic boats could carry tonnes. With comparatively few people. And much, much further in one day than walking in a roadless week. Some of the Marmotta boats, which are a couple of thousand years older than Stonehenge, are around 10 meters, 30+ feet long. It’s thought these particular boats may have had sails.
@@eh1702 yeh, have to say, my money would be on moving these stones by water rather than land. I doubt it would be lifted onto a boat though, more likely a raft built around the rock at low tide, which the sea would then pick up with the tide. Still a huge challenge though, our coastal waters are very tricky to navigate, lots of bad weather and nasty rocks. At least the land is predictable. Really boils down to how good the 'road' network was at that time in comparison.
@@eh1702 Picture 12 Elephants 🐘 on one of these small boats! Not likely, like the Egyptian boats, they would sink.
Hey guys, do the timescales match between the ending of the site at Ness of Brodgar and the formation of Stonehenge?
We don't know when Stonehenge started 😊
According to the Ness of Brodgar webiste, there seems to be a consensus of some type of civic disruption across Orkney around 2900BC, an intensification of (less expert) monument building, including some locally-developed modifications in types and some adopted types - followed by a few generations of a lull. When things picked up elsewhere in the islands, it seems it didn’t around Brodgar, although it wasn’t altogether abandoned.
Structure 10 collapsed around 2800, was shoddily rebuilt, and structures 1 & 12 went out of use about a century later.
Intermittent dumping of midden material after that. To me, that suggests that people just saw it as a site/locale rather than a “place”. The giant feast of cattle legs around 2400 seems to be the absolute finale. (I always think that looks suspiciously like a victory feast / genocide by wholesale cattle slaughter, a forerunner of the habit of “haughing” your enemy’s cattle. But that’s just me.)
Wow, what a response, thanks. From memory, Stonehenge started with the bluestones around 3000BCE, followed by the sarcens around 2500BCE.
It makes sense to me that the altar stone was probably installed during the sarcen construction period. If bluestones were known to have come from Preseli, when re-designing the layout, a representative of long distance allies/relatives may be appropriate.
I can see them being able to float such a stone, even if they had to lash a platform across two watercraft.
To me, the problem would be the moving of a slow heavily laden boat down the coast. It would have to use patches of favourable weather to move between safe harbors, whether enclosed bays or estuaries--and they would have to be very safe indeed! Early anchoring technology consisted of a killick--a wooden grapnel made from natural crooks of tough wood with a rock lashed to it for weight--not extremely reliable when the wind comes on to blow! While pulling your boat up the beach out of reach of the waves might have been a common tactic--but with a six ton rock on board it would be out of the question. A bit of a bounce on a hard beach with a great weight on board could break the boat in half. Waiting out bad weather or contrary winds up the esturies of small rivers would be safe. You could tie up to the shore.
And how special was this stone before it left Scotland? If it was already of great spiritual significance--risking losing it at sea might be more than they would care to contemplate.
I like the idea that people along the entire land route might participate in the moving of the stone as an act of communal worship. Moving it over marsh and mountain might convey special blessings on those taking part.
As a sea goer myself, the chance a 6 ton rock was floated from North Scotland to southern England is as likely as it fell from the moon via Scotland and landed slap bang in stonehenge !
Another question is,would the stone be brighter when polished,would it have created a white or red vertical line when polished or perhaps it was very dark creating a silhouette,which helped in measuring the sun's surface/transition. Maybe it was not originally vertical
Im not sure if there is a glitch here but i cant see my replies ..Juts saw Time Teams news program its a new thing on youtube its the same old faces from the old Time Team and they say it was probably brought down by boat and it has been proved prehistoric people can cross the Penland Firth in a cow skin boat or dug out and it would only take 10/15 people but to drag it all the way from Orkney you need about 300 people
I suspect that the alter stone (and the other stones) were relocated to Stonehenge for symbolic purposes. My guess is that they utilized a common religion to maintain the unity of related people who've migrated to different locations. Sort of like the Catholic Church using common symbology in their churches and distributing relics.
I suspect the same but kinda reversed. In Scotland we know that there were several different unrelated lots of neolithic colonists very near each other. Some left no detectable later trace (settlements or genetics). In other words, colonists origins lay in different parts of the European, British & Irish seaboard and some colonies probably failed. Then later some different types turn up, perhaps with a different lifeway that can adapt better to that micro-locality. As you say, having some big, all-inclusive events would give different groups who may have arrived with different languages (eg from Brittany or the Netherlands) common cultural ground, shared memories of the events (sports? feasts?) and out-marrying opportunities.
So again we see the layering of these Civilizations; with the oldest culture often buried 20 to 30 feet underground. Why then is the Megolithic Megablock society always grouped with a society that is 12,000 years or younger?
Mr. Pearson has made so many strange conjectures over the years. Watching him working with Time Team over the years he always offered the most 'over there' ideas. Some I could agree with, others, too armchair archeology for me.
I guess we wait to discover the exact source of the stone. This may dictate how it was transported.
The shocking update is that the alter stone is not from Orkney. So the next best guess is it's from Rhynie or Turriff
Maybe the stones were already there. Their journey possibly being a very long one in time and aided by the slow travelling of glaciers.
If they dragged the blue stones from the Preselis why are some of them of such a poor quality of stone, they would have surely chosen the hardest and most durable rock rather than a mixture of Dolerite and Rhyolite,some being very soft which would rapidly weather and crumble. Maybe they came in the Pliocene glaciation rather than the favoured much later Pleistocene.The ice sheet possibly flowed down the paleovalley and possibly resting the rocks in the vicinity of the Cursus. Geologists have never explained the large block of dolerite found 12 miles from stonehenge in an earthen longbarrow.
I have always loved the idea of neolithic people mowing stones over huge distances but to me glacial action seems more likely
Oh please, "Scone", the place, is pronounced "Skoon". And it was stolen not by the British but by Edward I ,king of England.
Never "scoan"!
Who was a descendant of French kings
Where did the Stonehenge archer come from?
the stone was perhaps some how special or the location was special. btw, the Scots only lent them the stone :)
The term "Scots" is an anachronism.
Hi guys :)
Even in The Netherlands in my city big stones are found and traced back to Scandinavia. My city is known as the Boulder city and the people from Amersfoort are referred to as 'boulder draggers'. This is because one such stone was found in the 17th century and the local Duke decided to play a joke on the poor people. He claimed it was essential for them to drag that thing into town square and then laughed at them for carrying it out. The Amersfoorters then decided to be proud of it and have been collecting exotic boulders ever since. These rocks were simply brought here by glaciation. Prehistoric people or neolithic had so much more appreciation for stone than we do. They even found Egyptian points made from comet material from outer space. They found Upper Paleolithic tools with fossils imbedded and respected during the flintknapping. How did it get there seems like an irrelevant question knowing how important stones were for our ancestors. And knowing what later people do moving stuff around. Even today there are people obsessed about it and doing all sorts of stuff. Prehistoric people such as the Solutreans and Magdalenians are known for using the rarest of materials available. And they found stuff that was displaced by glaciers as well. So some stone travelling from Scotland down to Stonehedge is merely a small fact and does not mean people were bringing it there at all. Not to mention how bloody stupid it would be for the Stonehedge people to waste their energy on that. What strikes me is that nobody is even considering earlier glaciations other than the Last Glacial Maximum. Stones were transported many times like this. And consider the pathways of glaciers during such events....they would lead from Scotland down to Southern England.......
So in order to research this so called 'Altar' we should examine how suitable this material is for making tools first. If it is not suitable for points, scrapers and other tools people may well have decided to use it for a structure, simple as that.
Thanks for your comment - very interesting!
We did actually include the earlier glaciations in our reckoning. As I said in the piece, the last glaciation would have carried the Orcadian basin stones northward and the earlier, Anglian advance of 450m years ago would have carried anything out to the west. The ice in both cases on the east of the side did not travel south - unless it originated much further down. Over on the west, it is a different story and as we mentioned, there are erratics from the north west of Scotland on the N. Devon coast. However - you've then still got a problem of selection and transportation over hunderds of miles. Michael.
The thing is, this non-local stone is immediately surrounded by other non-local stones that certainty were brought by people, not glaciers. The second thing is that it comes from an area absolutely abounding in Neolithic monuments, including stone circles that were built centuries before the orginal wood iteration of Stonehenge
The two together are suggestive.
@@ThePrehistoryGuys I posted twice the link but youtube seems to be blocking it first of all, how did the prehistoric people get to Orkney in the first place ? They didnt walk thats for sure .And it 2016 a bunch of Orkney scientists people sailed across in a beautiful calm see in a cow hide boat with 5 people in and it took 4.5 hrs it was to actually prove every bodies point that prehistoric people can cross the sea .so you dont need endless days of good weather ,one day will do it.. If they had a 4 tree catamaran dug out canoe lashed together they could easily cross with a 9 ton rock and then they could crawl down the coast stopping every 4 hours making sure the boat is sailing good and they dont get caught in a storm, camping in bad weather until its finished .
You. guys seem to have forgotten about the analysis done on cattle bones and teeth from Stonehenge.They have already identified that some came from N Scotland.Case closed.
Btw Mike PP’s work has not been found wrong. .Simply questioned which is fine. ( by a bitter man).
Maybe ancient folk stories, of the united lands (Cantre'r Gwaelod, Doggerland etc), made folk think that if they "reunited parts of the land" they would again, reunite the land - (and I'm a brexiteer - but I study pre-christian religion) - very different times.
It really makes me wonder whether some kind of politics wasn't at play here - negotiations, alliances, treaties, cooperations, trade agreements… all nicely dressed up with a bit of fun and fancy ritual, just to make it stick. Sounds kind of normal, wouldn't you say?
8:25 Carn GOEDog
So, now we hear two papers now contradict the Orkney origin. Is Rupert's relief going to be short-lived?
I imagine the builders brought it with them
Like you would do that? Carry some boulders with you when you move to a different area....how bloody stupid is that for anyone?
@@forestdweller5581You are assuming that there is no ritual significance to the stones' origins. You are assuming that the accomplishment is not significant. Since the stone came from an area where building in stone was highly skilled and sea travel also I feel my view to be well supported that the builders of stonehenge came from Caithness in a boat with the altar stone as ballast
I wondered if it was taken from the Ness of Brodgar as that site was being closed down and brought to this 'new' site.
The two most likely ways it got there are ice as a glacial erratic,or floated under the water under a raft.
Of course it's a glacial erratic. The Idea of Human transport is ridiculous.
Re glacial erratics: is it being assumed that the stone only came from Scotland, or are the experts considering geology that might be under the North Sea or even the Atlantic Ocean as a source for the stone ? And are they only considering the Late Devensian glaciation of 22000 years ago, or previous glaciation periods ? Glacial Erratics are so named by the fact they seem to be randomly distributed; I still think Glaciation or even Ice Rafting might be the cause for the Alter stone being moved, even if it wasn't to its present position, but moved in by people from somewhere relatively closer than Scotland.
Have you seen this watercolor of what Stonehenge looked like in ~1575: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stonehenge_Lucas_de_Heere.jpg
Note the ditch around the site and the two mounds in the foreground...
To me, the selection ofStones for Monuments especially, had the Properties of Stones having Critial importance in the Selection Process, and clearly having nothing whatsoever to do with Where certain Stones Came from ? So from that Perspective what Properties does Northern Scotland Old Red Sandstone Have, that Old Red Sandstone from the Gower Peninsula, Pembrokeshire, or anywhere Lack ? as finding Out what that Alter Stone Has or Doesn't Have as Properties, I suspect is going to Turn Out to Be Far more important, than Our Present State of Knowledge and Understanding might Suggest ? Face it, at the Time these Monuments were related, we are.ooking at Damned Serious Engineering Projects, that were both time and Labour intensive, and we just don't yet grasp the importance of just why they went to such lengths in my honest opinion. Best Wishes. Bob. 🤔🌟🌟🌟👍
would it have been on land before the YDB ? he worlds oceans rose by nearly four hundred feet after the big melt. Just wondering....
Could it be possible that the altar stone was transported part of the way and had been part of another monument for many years and then at a later time was transported the rest of the way?