I would add one more “never” to that list. I never had to compromise my integrity which is more than can be said for some of the management pilots I have encountered.
Ron, I was a first officer on the 737-200 based at ORD 1990-1995, and then moved over to the left seat. That airplane had a main outflow valve and a second, Forward Outflow Valve. If the main one was fully closed, then cabin pressure was controlled by the forward outflow valve. A little blue light would illuminate when the forward valve was fully closed. One day, while cruising at FL350, I noticed the blue FWD OUT FLW CLSD light was on and that BOTH outflow valves were fully closed. I told the captain that we had a major cabin pressure leak and that we should descend to FL250 or below because the loss of an engine, pack, or bleed would result in a rapid depressurization . He didn't believe me and told me not to write it up because if it was that serious, the light would be amber or red instead of blue. He then berated me by saying "hey, it's only a blue light". Obviously, he had no clue as to how pressurization worked so I sent it in on ACARS that the plane had a major cabin pressure leak. Upon arrival at the gate, we met two United mechanics who already knew what the problem was. They had replaced the forward cargo door seal the night before and had not let the glue dry long enough which caused the entire seal to blow out. The captain apologized to me profusely after he spoke to the mechanics.
Mrsuzuki , I seem to recall the forward outflow value was actually for equipment cooling and would close when the main outflow value was at 95 percent closed,, just saying as I'm an old retired 37 mechanic.
In ships engine rooms there is a bunch of lights, some like green (normal operation), flashing green ( a call coming in) are pretty normal, amber and red are exactly what you think it is, flashing red is fire.. But blue, blue is truly scary, that is stop breathing and get a mask, the air is no longer breathable and you go out with your next breath, things like a turbo leak (pumping the room full of exaust in seconds) or H2S (very deadly gas from fuel oils). This however is the most common version but not legally required, so there are vessels using blue for Incoming messages/calls, which causes the expected amount of panic in external engineers/crew.
@@spikenomoongood captain? Are you taking the piss? The one thing keeping you alive up there is the pressurisation system and he not only completely disregards a genuine warning that its not working properly but humiliated the second officer for raising his concerns? They could’ve suffered a slow depressurisation which is much harder to detect than a rapid one because its onset is insidious. He only apologised on the ground when the engineers arrived because he knew he greatly fucked up and if the second officer reported the event he’d be in deep deep trouble. Its captains with this attitude that often end up on air crash investigation documentaries.
Every FO and SO at United that would've flown with that guy owes you a debt of gratitude. It's so important that those personality types are weeded out of the training dept.
Had the same pressurization issue on a 727 after a high elevation takeoff with the Packs off. The FE mentioned we weren’t pressurizing so we leveled off to keep the cabin below rubber jungle mode. Shortly afterwards, the FE muttered an expletive and confessed he forgot to turn the Packs on. Problem solved…
Well, things happen. We are all just human. As long as it's solved like that the FO will surely remember it. I would be angry about myself with something like that, more than anyone else. 😂
Thank God there are folks like You out there. You don't teach by intimidation and You definitely don't learn anything by being intimidated ! That's what causes accidents
Congratulations on your retirement. I recently retired nearly 2 years ago as a 737 captain at United. I got a video of my water cannon salute from the inside of the aircraft, my wife videoed from a first class window. Oh, how I wish someone could’ve filmed the outside perspective, we came in at night time into Newark. It would’ve looked spectacular with the spotlights from the two fire trucks flaking us! Thanks for Great video, brings back memories of my career moments.
Ron, I was a B-727 Flight Engineer instructor for Fowler Aeronautical in 1973. Our ground school was in Burbank, and we used United simulators and airplanes (actual airplane training and Check Rides were required before the OPEC oil embargo). I got my B-727 Type Rating Sep 9-1973, my instructor was Hoppy Hopkins, and my FAA Inspector was John Carter. One of the airplanes I flew was N7002U the second 727 built by Boeing. One of my very good friends from my young CFI days later became United Vice President/Chief Pilot (during Sep 11 event). I ended up at American Airlines, and was allowed to fly N720AA, one of the 4 flights April 30-2002 from MIA. We left together, the last 727 flights of American. After Sep 11, we furloughed a lot of guys, and MIA FE/SO was their last stop. I had a new guy getting his IOE from another young FE instructor that was riding this new guy too hard. I did exactly what you did, I told him to shut up and I would observe the new guy for the remainder of the trip. Your story brought back old memories. The 727 training I got at United was actually better than I later received at American. I remember the catering they put on the training flights, the 410 knots/.90 flights between DEN & Pueblo, and the Blue Bird bus to and from the terminal. Sadly, I remember losing our friends at United and American on Sep 11. God bless them all, and thanks for your video. We really had to know the airplane in 1973, from the radome to the static wicks on the tail. Interestingly, United guys referred to Boeing’s last two numbers (27, 37, 47, etc.) while at American we used the first two numbers (72, 73, 74, etc.) 😎 - an old retired Captain
@@RaptorFromWeegee Most airlines call this transition training, and is generally four to five weeks. Two weeks ground school and two to three weeks simulator training and check ride. Then 25 hours IOE, flying live passenger flights with a Check Airman until he signs you off. We called these flying with your “Mother in Law”. You are then restricted to flying with Captains/First Officers with more than 75-100 hours in Type for your first 100 hours in Type. This so you do not crew a flight with two “FNGs” together. There are special DEI people that take significantly longer training times. 😎
you are a problem-solver type, doesn't hurt to be an engineer as well. glad you got out of those engine situations. every flight needs one of you on it.
Great video. I was a 727 captain/check airman for 11 years and after watching this I'm convinced that we all have the same database of stories and anecdotes!
Ron - it seems we had fairly parallel careers. I was with a different carrier, but, on the 727, I was (at various times) a ships cleaner, a mechanic, a systems ground school instructor ( our little company used DEN TK facilities a lot), a simulator instructor, and Second Officer Check Airman. I LOVE your stories. They put me right back in the 727 cockpit. I retired as a B767 Captain.
Yeah - I was wowed that you explained why the 400 Hz was present in such accurate detail until you mentioned being an electrical engineer! Right on, man.
That's an interesting set of stories. Crew dynamics can be difficult; as a single-pilot 135 freight dog I struggled when I upgraded to Crewed aircraft. When you have a sharp first officer, your job is so much easier. I have had some absolutely horrible FO's and they are now at the mainlines. Presumably, they got better along the way.
I had an outflow valve freeze on the 727. A case of beer loaded in the hold had frozen and broken the bottles that then dribbled down and froze the outflow.
My father, Noel Felstead (1917-1974) was a check captain with Trans Australia Airlines as the time of his death. He joined TAA as a first officer just after the airline began in 1946.
I love these videos. I am a student pilot and will probably never fly anything over 12500 lbs and may never even get a commerical but I enjoy these so much. I learn so much during these videos. Thank you for sharing your expertise and taking the time to do these videos. If you're ever in Harrisburg let me know and I'll buy you a beer/soda.
Love these anecdotes, Ron! The 727 has a special place in my heart as it was one of the first planes I worked on as a mechanic. I was very studious about the systems even though I was never endorsed on the aircraft and so happy to listen to you and know exactly what you were talking about.. how to sync and tie generators.. that that light meant oil pressure.. and not only knowing how the outflow valve works but having physically replaced it and seeing both the AC and DC motors at opposite ends of it. Today I’m a pilot and instructor as well and I’ve also had to endure bad instructors. My goal as an instructor is to be knowledgeable but still able to ask questions or admit where my knowledge is fuzzy… to instil a sense of calm on the flight deck rather than escalate emotions by harsh criticism, demeaning behaviour, or excessive worry about things that can be left for debrief…. and to help the candidate work through the problem themselves.
Ron, thank you, your videos remind me of conversations with my grandad before he died, he was involved with development at Hawker Sidley and followed their acquisitions. Thank you for taking your time to share your experiences
Good stories! I had to click when I saw the thumbnail. In the late 90s I was FO on a 727 when the outflow valve failed in a nearly closed position during cruise flight (turned out to be jammed with ice from a broken water line). The cabin pressure was being held on the over pressure relief valve. When we were in the descent the captain told the SO to pressurize the cabin only from the number 2 engine since it didn’t have high stage bleed air (At low power settings the No2 engine wouldn’t have enough bleed air to pressurize the cabin) The SO then controlled the cabin descent by adjusting no 2 engine thrust. Worked perfectly to gently de-pressurize the cabin for landing. Also, no checklist for that.
That is a great old airliner story. It was somewhat reminiscent of the American Trans Air B727 high dive that occurred around 1998. A Check Captain was giving OE to a new FO. The FE was having a lot of system issues and managed to forget to turn on one of the PACKS after startup. Through 27,000 the ALTITUDE ALERT triggered. The Captain looked back and saw the PACK was off and instructed the FE to 1. Turn the PACK on. 2. Go to MANUAL. 3. Manually close the outflow value. The FE proceeds to do 1 and 2 correctly but instead of closing the outflow valve he toggled it open. While the altitude alert continued the Captain was yelling at the FE to CLOSE the value. In the mean time the new hire FO followed the memory items which are 1.Put on the 02 Mask. 2. Doesn’t matter as long as you accomplish #1. Captain and FE proceed to pass out from hypoxia. Flight Attendant walks into the cockpit to see what going on because all of the pax masks have dropped. She surveys the scene of the CAPT and FE passed out and the FO wearing his mask and promptly vomits all over the cockpit and then also passes out. At this point the FO executes a simulator perfect Emergency Descent and saves the airplane (and the company). This all happened a few days after ValueJet had crashed in the Everglades. ATA got crucified in the media and was forced to furlough 65 pilots including the FO that saved the company. Thanks Ron for sharing this story. The B727 FE panel tripped up more than a few FE/SO’s.
Ron, we were both 727 second officers at ORD at the same time. I was on the panel from 1986-1990 and was a second officer LCA 1988-1990. I had to retire on January 18, 2015 at age 65 but am still flying professionally at 74 in a Pilatus PC-12NG singe engine turboprop.
He was obviously shouting due to his own incompetence. Listening to you I imagine it takes quite a bit to tick you off. I used to be good friends with a British Airways flight engineer. He started on Britannias, then on to VC10s and finished up on 747/100s. He retired from BA and was then head hunted by Virgin and in his words 'did another 3 years crossing the pond'.
Thank You for calling out incompetence when you see it. It's hard to report a fellow Pilot, and other pilots will call you a traitor , a company rat. I call it professional and keeping the passengers safe. you can't allow this guy to teach other pilots when he doesn't understand it himself... Well Done.. We need more professionals like you.
I think he gave the guy more than enough chances, the fact he wasn't prepared to do the same thing when he was supposed to be instructing somebody else was the straw that broke the camels back.
@@johnkerr4645 For me, all I care about is a competent professional Flight crew. This guy was a toxic, Know it all, that knew nothing. The only place this guy belongs in the air industry is pumping the crap out of the sh1ters while the plane is refueling
Gotta be ready and able to back your people up when they are doing the right thing per process/procedure/command. Always. That’s just leadership plain and simple.
I was hired as a 727 FE by a large American airline in 1986. The culture of screaming check airmen was not only acceptable, it was encouraged at that time. I retired having spent 25 years a Captain on S80, F100, 737, 777. That first year training was savage and counterproductive. Learning suffered for it.
I started out in the right seat of the 727 at Evergreen because we had PFE’s and upgraded to Captain 13 months later. Got hired at Alaska as an FE on the three holer and was the last one to get a Captain bid on it before we got rid of them. Flew everywhere from Russia-Dead Horse and Acapulco. I retired in 2020 after 35 years and when ever I dream about flying, it’s always a 727. It was as smooth as a ‘52 Buick Roadmaster.
As a USAF Instructor, we had Continuous issues with fellow Instructors who's technique was to try and terrorize perfection into students. You would see the mission frag for the day, see what I was paired with what stud, and you would just want to find the guy and brief him to just do thier best and ignore the yelling & insults. There was no learning once someone shuts down from fear of anger when they are yelled at, insulted, or told how much worse they are than XYZ. I.fact the stud is going to do the simple things they know, wrong, because they end up doubting themselves and are more worried about the response to wrong actions, than they are confident in thier right actions.
@@mikoto7693 there are certain environments where yelling and creating a high tension atmosphere is telorated and encouraged. Basic Training, when new entry members are in technical skills training environments Outside the classroom, during voluntary advanced level training & special operations courses... But the setting should always be permissive and encourage learning in the classroom and academic events. In a non-tactical, non-combat skill set, there should never be any kind of yelling or intentional creation of a hostile environment. Ever.
@@DocP91B Fair enough, I can understand that. Probably a good thing that I never tried to join the military. Yelling at me… just doesn’t really work very well. I’ll be focusing on either how to GTFO or shutting them out in endurance mode until I can leave. Whatever’s attempting to be learned probably won’t sink in.
@@mikoto7693 that's what happens a lot, and why we got mad at those instructors among us who acted like that. We were training professional aviation personnel. The got past thier basic stages. This was time. For serious learning of very in depth subject. They needed an educational atmosphere, not drill sergeants trying scare them. It was a place for actual teaching, not pulling rank and yelling. Very sad that some of those guys couldn't understand that.
Great story. I am retired F/A, 37 years at American. I was a recruiter and instructor at various times. Back in the early days, the pilots and flight attendants were all about keeping any issues we could on the airplane. No need to get the company involved. Except as in your case, you clearly had a training/safety issue. In my last years as a Purser on long haul flights, B777-300ER I made it clear during my briefing to the other 16 flight attendants that we could keep all issues to ourselves. However, I made it clear that if I saw a safety "violation," I had no choice but to report it to the Captain. Also, if the Captain suspected something and asked me a question, I had absolutely no choice but to always tell the truth. No Captain would ever be kept in the dark. On a few occasions, a pilot might ask if I knew one of the flight attendants was "as nice as she seemed or married," I would tell him or her that I did not know. However, at some point, I would quietly tell the F/A that the Captain had politely asked a few questions about her/him. I make it clear that if there is some mutual interest, they might want to go to the cockpit for a visit. Those were the good old days. I have been retired for 10 years and three months as I write this in 2/2/2013. I do not miss anything about the industry. I look forward to the retirement check being deposited into my checking account on the first of each month. Be well.
What a lovely story. Well done sir. Pressurisation can be a tricky system. Many moons ago I was the FO on a Fokker F27 on a freight charter from England up to Sweden in the middle of a dark and stormy night (they all seemed dark and stormy on the F27). I don’t remember all the technical details but the normal pressurisation system had no sense of duty and, while my Captain flew the aeroplane, I flew the pressurisation needle valve which had a delay in reacting to my switch inputs of about ten seconds. We endured about four hours of the cabin altitude alternately climbing and descending at 4000 ft/min. The Captain, the loadmaster and I all had very well flexed eardrums by the time we got to Stockholm!
Thanks, Captain Rogers for a stroll down memory lane. I was a UAL 727 second officer at ORD in 1996. Moved to the Airbus in 1997 and have been flying them out of DCA ever since. We crossed paths a couple times. I appreciate your sharing of experience and how things were done in the “good ol’ days”. Keep the content coming!
I was a flight engineer in the USAF, we had to know all the numbers not “ its in the green , ..or yellow” or theres a light for that. I just cringe when i hear those words. I was so amazed when i started civilian commercial flying at the lack of nuts and bolts knowledge. Granted , you dont need to build your plane before you fly but it sure helps when youre problem solving.
Captain, love your channel and stories. Rotary pilot here, US Army AH64 Delta, then on to civilian life Air Ambulance company. My passengers never complain much, sure love the information you put out and the knowledge you posses. BRAVO
To me, the 727 was the sexiest of airliners. I've got thousands of miles as a passenger with some visits to the cockpit (yes kids, you could do that once upon a time) and got to tour one at the AA Flight Academy in the 70s. I mean the feel, the way those ex-military guys could handle it, the crew concept, everything. My favorite liner in FSX is the B722. Just love it.
These 727 videos really take me back. In the mid 80's I took some courses on aircraft systems using the 727 as an example in a lot of cases and the final course in the series would have been to get the 727 flight engineer rating. For a number of reasons, I didn't carry on with that mainly because it was clear that the 727 wasn't going to be around a lot longer but I knew that machine pretty well at one time.
I love the 727. I started out working on them in the 90s and had a lot of great experiences doing maintenance on them and taxiing them. Now I run a 145 repair facility and we do repairs on the cabin pressure controllers as well as the control panel you highlighted in the video. This was a great video highlighting that knowledge of the aircraft systems is critical, and my best technicians are the ones who have experience working on the aircraft because they know the systems.
Congrats on a wonderful career and thank you for sharing your story! I’m a current 787 LCP (New term for LCA) and have been a check airman for over two decades with UAL. It is important to respect people and have a good bedside manner. Brought back memories, with the photos of the 727. I was an engineer and Captain on the Tri-Motor. Keep the videos coming!
Hi Captain, Thanks for the thorough (with brevity upheld) narration of the event, and for titling the clip from a Human Factors stand-point. I would pass this clip onto my flight school and small online pilot group. Look forward to tuning into more of your invaluable stories.
Been gone ovet 19 years from the Mainline Airway, Ron, but it felt like so many of the informative enroute chats I had in my 26-1/2 years there.Thanks for a great vid. Me? Tweets, White Rockets 70-02 Vance, Tanks, then lotsa nonsked bum hours before Untied picked me up at age 34. Guppy LCA; last 6 years were in the Boeing Anteater (-757). Loved it all.
Great example of leadership there. You take care of your crew and report incompitence. As a commissioning manager I deal with a lot of young guys that are technically very proficient but still have not learnt the "cooperative" element. It can be tough but the one thing you never do is raise your voice. That is something I cover always during the start up meetings with the crew - at EVERY job!
As a B727 FE, your biggest time to shine or fail abysmally was the emergency gear extension procedure! Only had to do that ONCE. ( I had created my own visual quick checklist for this procedure, leaving nothing to chance, with a drawing of the proper sequence and direction to crank the gear ) Worked like a charm.
"Do not yell at my Second Officer!You are done as an Instructor!" As a B-52 Crew Chief I was on a ride-along flight once and there was an instructor Navigator onboard. So there we go through the low-level portion of the flight and this is where the instructor really expects the trainee to be firing on all cylinders. The instructor is being tough on the trainee and barking out orders and fine tuning his performance. But as the flight went along......down low as we were.....the trainee was getting behind the power curve. The instructor kept riding him harder and harder which wasn't helping anything at all. At one point the co-pilot yells over at the aircraft commander "Hey, we're on the wrong side of the river!" ....which put us up against some high terrain to our right. The AC gets on the interphone and insists that he get a proper heading RIGHT NOW or he was going to blow off the low level flight. So instructor starts REALLY riding the trainees tail.....as if we were in a simulator or something. I say to the AC "Why doesn't he leave him alone long enough to give you a heading????" The AC gives me the wait sign with his hand. Instructor ratchets up his pressure on the trainee and I spin out of my seat to give him a piece of my mind. The AC grabs me by my sleeve and spins me right back into the IP seat and then tells the Nav team, "We're blowing off this low level route. Co, make the call." And up we went. Later as we approached the runway he told the Nav team he wanted to talk to them. Fun times.
Good man! You remind me of me! I was a Locomotive Engineer who also trained others. I mastered my craft by LISTENING to others who knew theirs,so when I became and Instructor,I was well versed in my job and could teach without getting excited or condescending, In other words,a POOR instructor. Many of my students ended up in Supervisory positions or became very proficient Engineers themselves. Retired after 30 Years of safe running,without ONE single write up for poor running or rules deviation. A great career and a great life that sometimes I miss.
YeeHaw! Gosh this video brought back a lot of memories and stories from my days at Northwest Airlines on the 3 Holer as a wrench. I had a First Officer on one trip that was a real piece of work and he rode my tail every leg. The Captain was a gem and a truly great guy to work with and saw the FO was getting on my case. The Captain scolded him privately a couple of times before he finally lost his temper with him in the cockpit on day 4 of a 5 day trip. He really let him have it too. On the NWA 727s the ignition toggle switch went left and right and the seat belt sign was aligned fore and aft. Captain Dureau pointed to the seat belt switch and told the FO "For the remainder of this trip this will be your stick." then to the ignition switch "and this will be your rudder. SHUT THE F$*& UP!!" I ended my airline career after 31 years, the last 21 as a DC-9 then A320 Captain and like you, I never bent any metal, never had to answer to a chief pilot or FAA suit, never injured a fellow crewmember or passenger. The only downside to my career was the delta merger and those boneheads closed MEM where I had been for 19 years.
The moment I saw the title I figured this was a run in with a military guy. My favorite thing about leaving the Marines was not having to yell at people any more but I guess it never leaves some people’s systems. Fantastic story telling!
Great story telling...Ty! I'm a CA for SWA ....been SWA 20 years....love hearing all these older AC stories....your story telling is really great...Thankyou!
Yelling at people doesn’t teach them or help them learn! Being too nice doesn’t either being firm and respectful is a great thing don’t act like ur friends but not enemies and let them know you need to know these things
Good Job Captain..... I had a similar situation with a Captain instructor. He was teaching his own techniques and not by the book. Dangerous to say the least. Had to put him back in training. My role at the time was Fleet Check Captain with many thousand hours on the bird. Keep um safe and blue side up.
Thanks for the great story. Crew resource management is so important. Being nasty is how captains have scared first officers to clam up and not say anything in an emergency. I loved the 727 it was a nice plane. More of a challenge to fly. Then the new Boeings with auto land. All the automation makes it easy but you must still be on your game when problems come up. Having a mechanical or electrical engineering background is nice. A better understanding of the systems is always good.
Thank you, this brought back memories of when I worked on the 727-100 and 200. Overhaul and C- Checks at SFO maintenance base. I will be retiring in April after 35 years of service with United.
Ah, reminders of the 727. I was with American. They didn't trust the 'automatic pressurization" so we had a lot of 727's with manual. After a point Boeing wouldn't put the manual on the airplane so subsequent airplanes got the automatic. The manual system requires a bit if finess to keep from getting high rates of climb or descent(the more painful one). It was a real pain. I also was an FE on the 707--all manual systems. The 777 was like on a different planet from the early airplanes. Fuel balance on long flights in the 727 (& DC-9) could be a problem too. I remember frequently having to balance the 727 on long flights. I retired in 2005.
I once did a similar thing: While preparing for my PPL check ride I said the flight examiner that was assigned to me: "You're done as a a flight examiner!" That happened in 2012; he hasn't been a flight examiner since.
I enjoyed it very much. We groundhogs know very little about what goes on up in the cockpit and stories like this educates us as to what goes on up there. With your words and pictures helps us understand what it takes to fly one of those birds.
Your chanel popped up on "You might like this" suggestions. I'm just a retired PPL after about 35yrs of totally enjoyable aviating. Absolutely LOVE the stories like this from the industry. So I've subscribed and will spend a good bit of time going through your previous videos. Oh... I haven't bent an airplane or hurt anyone either 😄 Cheers Pete' New Zealand.
I used to start my checkrides by telling the students: "Those who can - do. Those who can't - teach. Those who can't teach - give checkrides". You always get a better performance from a relaxed crew.
Ron, I really enjoyed this trip to the past. I flew for Delta Airlines from February 1979 to August 2019. I spent 12 years on the 727 and finished on the B777 like you did (seniority number one Captain in LAX). I agree with everything you said in this video, especially on the 'oil filter bypass' issue. I was a SO on the 727 when I got the light (number 3 as well!). The Captain wanted to shut the engine down. I quickly thought of a way around this by calling the company and talking to the maintenance coordinator. The mechanic said 'don't shut it down'; there is a know issue of false warnings on the detector. Fortunately, this message allowed the Captain to do the right thing and leave it running at idle. I learned a lesson on how to influence the outcome of a flight even as a junior crew member; and still respect the Captains authority.
Thanks Ron, very helpful. I hope I’ll do as well as you with CRM. I’ve been a mechanic my whole career with a little flying on the side. I got laid off from building water bombers so my wife sent me off to flight school to get an instructor rating. I instructed here and there but the schools keep going under. I took a temp job teaching aircraft maintenance at the local college. It was a great experience but I’m at loose ends again. I’m told the airlines are scraping the barrel so I’m writing the ATPL exams. Looks like I’m going to be the world’s oldest copilot. Wish me luck.
You know getting to the point of sitting on the flight deck as a qualified second officer is not an easy thing to do. It does take some dedication and hard work. But to get to the flight deck as an unqualified second officer, it seems like it would take even more dedication and hard work. I can't begin to imagine how a person would go about and fool the system.
That instructor sounds like my examiner, back when I got my PPL in Long Island. I still can't believe that someone like that was a flight examiner. Great vid! Really enjoyed it! Subscribed.
I enjoyed your recapping of the scenario. I especially enjoyed you diving into the aircraft system’s technical aspects (being an engineer myself). Regards.
Sounds like you did good work. The last thing you need in the cockpit is a toxic, combative environment. Sometimes, crew resource management means removing someone from the crew...
I flew Braniff 727's back & forth between Texas & New York for 4 years. A few years later Braniff went belly-up and I was blessed to have a Braniff pilot for a flight instructor.
I remember one February, maybe 1976 or 77, our family were set to fly from LGA to Chicago, then switch to a flight bound for Denver. It was a ski trip. But at LGA we found all flights through Chicago were canceled. So, I think we flew United to DFW, then switched to a Braniff 727 to continue on to Denvers Stapleton Airport. Quite an adventure and the only time I ever set foot in Texas. Could you have been our pilot?
@@RaptorFromWeegee He might have been your pilot. And if so, you were in good hands. I am just a low-hour private pilot who let his currency lapse many years ago.
Thanks for the video, Captain! I love that you’re giving us schematics and checklists. And I like your storytelling style, straight to the point. Subscribed.
I enjoyed your story. I was a BA pilot man and boy and like you ended up on the 777 for the last few years, 20k hrs mostly shorthaul and regional in sector terms but many many hours of absolute boredom watching the auto pilot have all the fun. The CRM aspects of your video illustrates entirely how awful the training system could be in the old days and and how it improved immeasurably in the last years of my career. The ones who shouted much and offered little are very few and far now(I hope) and generally were those whose competence was the least.
I just found your channel and the stories you tell sound like the ones that my father’s friends (he was friends with a few pilots) used to tell from their days at Qantas and Ansett in the 90s. It was what pushed me to learn to fly, although I went into another industry. I’m now getting back into flying and pursuing it as a career change at 40. I hope to one day be able to similar stories about my flying.
I worked as a FA for United In the 70s and flew on the 727 so many times when I first started. Loved them compared to 737 to work in. United was a great experience for me. I flew small planes later in my life. When we had an empty plane to go pick up passengers the cockpit used into let me sit up in front during landings and listen in on the radio. No passengers aboard so... Good days. Loved your video
There's something about those three engine airplanes. I know they are not efficient enough to be economic, but I do like the overall shape. Great stories, thanks!
I had my share of psychos posing as instructors/check airmen and I always told myself that I would never become one like them. I retired after a 44 year career and kept my promise. Those people do not belong inside a cockpit.
"Never killed anybody and never bent an airplane" - old, not bold. Exactly the sort of pilot I like up the pointy end of anything I am flying on.
There is no substitute for experience and Ron has obviously done his time in all aspects and has that experience in spades.
I would add one more “never” to that list. I never had to compromise my integrity which is more than can be said for some of the management pilots I have encountered.
Ron, I was a first officer on the 737-200 based at ORD 1990-1995, and then moved over to the left seat. That airplane had a main outflow valve and a second, Forward Outflow Valve. If the main one was fully closed, then cabin pressure was controlled by the forward outflow valve. A little blue light would illuminate when the forward valve was fully closed. One day, while cruising at FL350, I noticed the blue FWD OUT FLW CLSD light was on and that BOTH outflow valves were fully closed. I told the captain that we had a major cabin pressure leak and that we should descend to FL250 or below because the loss of an engine, pack, or bleed would result in a rapid depressurization . He didn't believe me and told me not to write it up because if it was that serious, the light would be amber or red instead of blue. He then berated me by saying "hey, it's only a blue light". Obviously, he had no clue as to how pressurization worked so I sent it in on ACARS that the plane had a major cabin pressure leak. Upon arrival at the gate, we met two United mechanics who already knew what the problem was. They had replaced the forward cargo door seal the night before and had not let the glue dry long enough which caused the entire seal to blow out. The captain apologized to me profusely after he spoke to the mechanics.
Mrsuzuki , I seem to recall the forward outflow value was actually for equipment cooling and would close when the main outflow value was at 95 percent closed,, just saying as I'm an old retired 37 mechanic.
Good captain to be humble and apologize.
I met a few of those old crusty Captain’s over the years….Hopefully I wasn’t one of those as time went on! LOL😂
In ships engine rooms there is a bunch of lights, some like green (normal operation), flashing green ( a call coming in) are pretty normal, amber and red are exactly what you think it is, flashing red is fire.. But blue, blue is truly scary, that is stop breathing and get a mask, the air is no longer breathable and you go out with your next breath, things like a turbo leak (pumping the room full of exaust in seconds) or H2S (very deadly gas from fuel oils).
This however is the most common version but not legally required, so there are vessels using blue for Incoming messages/calls, which causes the expected amount of panic in external engineers/crew.
@@spikenomoongood captain? Are you taking the piss? The one thing keeping you alive up there is the pressurisation system and he not only completely disregards a genuine warning that its not working properly but humiliated the second officer for raising his concerns? They could’ve suffered a slow depressurisation which is much harder to detect than a rapid one because its onset is insidious. He only apologised on the ground when the engineers arrived because he knew he greatly fucked up and if the second officer reported the event he’d be in deep deep trouble. Its captains with this attitude that often end up on air crash investigation documentaries.
People are under enough stress in training. There is no room for screamers.
Screamers have a place. When there are too many pilots, they help to weed out the wilting violets. 🥸
@@jamesburns2232 I disagree. There is no place for one and I wasn't one as an instructor or FE. Usually it's the case where the screamer can't teach.
@@jamesburns2232 it helps weed out the incompetent CFIs.
If you have a flight instructor yelling at you, you probably f**ked up bad.
Sometimes people need to be yelled at.
@@imadequate3376if nothing else, it is ineffective as a style of instruction and the screamer is wasting everyone’s time.
Every FO and SO at United that would've flown with that guy owes you a debt of gratitude. It's so important that those personality types are weeded out of the training dept.
Had the same pressurization issue on a 727 after a high elevation takeoff with the Packs off. The FE mentioned we weren’t pressurizing so we leveled off to keep the cabin below rubber jungle mode. Shortly afterwards, the FE muttered an expletive and confessed he forgot to turn the Packs on. Problem solved…
Well, for what it’s worth you have a fair amount of company. Lol
Well, things happen. We are all just human. As long as it's solved like that the FO will surely remember it.
I would be angry about myself with something like that, more than anyone else.
😂
To err is human. The trustworthy admits their mistakes.
Well, he saw what he'd done, admitted it , fixed it... and I bet he never made the same mistake again going forward.
Packs ?
Please explain. 🤔
Thank God there are folks like You out there. You don't teach by intimidation and You definitely don't learn anything by being intimidated ! That's what causes accidents
I appreciate the fact that you stood up for the guy!
Retired AA Captain. You brought back a a lot of memories about my 727 days. God Bless.
Congratulations on your retirement. I recently retired nearly 2 years ago as a 737 captain at United. I got a video of my water cannon salute from the inside of the aircraft, my wife videoed from a first class window. Oh, how I wish someone could’ve filmed the outside perspective, we came in at night time into Newark. It would’ve looked spectacular with the spotlights from the two fire trucks flaking us! Thanks for Great video, brings back memories of my career moments.
Congratulations!
Ron, I was a B-727 Flight Engineer instructor for Fowler Aeronautical in 1973. Our ground school was in Burbank, and we used United simulators and airplanes (actual airplane training and Check Rides were required before the OPEC oil embargo). I got my B-727 Type Rating Sep 9-1973, my instructor was Hoppy Hopkins, and my FAA Inspector was John Carter. One of the airplanes I flew was N7002U the second 727 built by Boeing. One of my very good friends from my young CFI days later became United Vice President/Chief Pilot (during Sep 11 event). I ended up at American Airlines, and was allowed to fly N720AA, one of the 4 flights April 30-2002 from MIA. We left together, the last 727 flights of American. After Sep 11, we furloughed a lot of guys, and MIA FE/SO was their last stop. I had a new guy getting his IOE from another young FE instructor that was riding this new guy too hard. I did exactly what you did, I told him to shut up and I would observe the new guy for the remainder of the trip.
Your story brought back old memories. The 727 training I got at United was actually better than I later received at American. I remember the catering they put on the training flights, the 410 knots/.90 flights between DEN & Pueblo, and the Blue Bird bus to and from the terminal. Sadly, I remember losing our friends at United and American on Sep 11. God bless them all, and thanks for your video. We really had to know the airplane in 1973, from the radome to the static wicks on the tail. Interestingly, United guys referred to Boeing’s last two numbers (27, 37, 47, etc.) while at American we used the first two numbers (72, 73, 74, etc.) 😎
- an old retired Captain
Thanks for sharing such a nice story!
How long did it take experienced pilots to transition from say, a 737 to a 727?
@@RaptorFromWeegee Most airlines call this transition training, and is generally four to five weeks. Two weeks ground school and two to three weeks simulator training and check ride. Then 25 hours IOE, flying live passenger flights with a Check Airman until he signs you off. We called these flying with your “Mother in Law”. You are then restricted to flying with Captains/First Officers with more than 75-100 hours in Type for your first 100 hours in Type. This so you do not crew a flight with two “FNGs” together. There are special DEI people that take significantly longer training times. 😎
You may very well have saved a lot of lives Ron sending this officer for further training.
Brazil here: we still see cargo 727's in airports where noise restrictions arent a thing. Beautiful birds
I sat in all three seats in 727’s. Never hurt a soul. Proud of that. I’m 77 now and I still miss it. PS: I knew exactly what you were talking about.
you are a problem-solver type, doesn't hurt to be an engineer as well. glad you got out of those engine situations. every flight needs one of you on it.
Great video. I was a 727 captain/check airman for 11 years and after watching this I'm convinced that we all have the same database of stories and anecdotes!
Ron - it seems we had fairly parallel careers. I was with a different carrier, but, on the 727, I was (at various times) a ships
cleaner, a mechanic, a systems ground school instructor ( our little company used DEN TK facilities a lot), a simulator instructor, and Second Officer Check Airman.
I LOVE your stories. They put me right back in the 727 cockpit. I retired as a B767 Captain.
Yeah - I was wowed that you explained why the 400 Hz was present in such accurate detail until you mentioned being an electrical engineer! Right on, man.
That's an interesting set of stories. Crew dynamics can be difficult; as a single-pilot 135 freight dog I struggled when I upgraded to Crewed aircraft. When you have a sharp first officer, your job is so much easier. I have had some absolutely horrible FO's and they are now at the mainlines. Presumably, they got better along the way.
I wouldn't bet on that. ;-))
I had an outflow valve freeze on the 727.
A case of beer loaded in the hold had frozen and broken the bottles that then dribbled down and froze the outflow.
My father, Noel Felstead (1917-1974) was a check captain with Trans Australia Airlines as the time of his death. He joined TAA as a first officer just after the airline began in 1946.
Thanks for your insights Ron. I'm an 80's baby and grew up watching men like you fly. You're knowledge and experience means a lot to me.
I love these videos. I am a student pilot and will probably never fly anything over 12500 lbs and may never even get a commerical but I enjoy these so much. I learn so much during these videos. Thank you for sharing your expertise and taking the time to do these videos. If you're ever in Harrisburg let me know and I'll buy you a beer/soda.
Sounds good! Used to lay over there a lot when I was flying.
Love these anecdotes, Ron!
The 727 has a special place in my heart as it was one of the first planes I worked on as a mechanic. I was very studious about the systems even though I was never endorsed on the aircraft and so happy to listen to you and know exactly what you were talking about.. how to sync and tie generators.. that that light meant oil pressure.. and not only knowing how the outflow valve works but having physically replaced it and seeing both the AC and DC motors at opposite ends of it.
Today I’m a pilot and instructor as well and I’ve also had to endure bad instructors. My goal as an instructor is to be knowledgeable but still able to ask questions or admit where my knowledge is fuzzy… to instil a sense of calm on the flight deck rather than escalate emotions by harsh criticism, demeaning behaviour, or excessive worry about things that can be left for debrief…. and to help the candidate work through the problem themselves.
Well done Captain !! It’s a shame that this happens until this day ! Good to know somebody gave him a stop ! 👏🏻👏🏻
Ron, thank you, your videos remind me of conversations with my grandad before he died, he was involved with development at Hawker Sidley and followed their acquisitions. Thank you for taking your time to share your experiences
Good stories! I had to click when I saw the thumbnail. In the late 90s I was FO on a 727 when the outflow valve failed in a nearly closed position during cruise flight (turned out to be jammed with ice from a broken water line). The cabin pressure was being held on the over pressure relief valve. When we were in the descent the captain told the SO to pressurize the cabin only from the number 2 engine since it didn’t have high stage bleed air (At low power settings the No2 engine wouldn’t have enough bleed air to pressurize the cabin) The SO then controlled the cabin descent by adjusting no 2 engine thrust. Worked perfectly to gently de-pressurize the cabin for landing. Also, no checklist for that.
That is a great old airliner story. It was somewhat reminiscent of the American Trans Air B727 high dive that occurred around 1998. A Check Captain was giving OE to a new FO. The FE was having a lot of system issues and managed to forget to turn on one of the PACKS after startup. Through 27,000 the ALTITUDE ALERT triggered. The Captain looked back and saw the PACK was off and instructed the FE to 1. Turn the PACK on. 2. Go to MANUAL. 3. Manually close the outflow value. The FE proceeds to do 1 and 2 correctly but instead of closing the outflow valve he toggled it open. While the altitude alert continued the Captain was yelling at the FE to CLOSE the value. In the mean time the new hire FO followed the memory items which are 1.Put on the 02 Mask. 2. Doesn’t matter as long as you accomplish #1. Captain and FE proceed to pass out from hypoxia. Flight Attendant walks into the cockpit to see what going on because all of the pax masks have dropped. She surveys the scene of the CAPT and FE passed out and the FO wearing his mask and promptly vomits all over the cockpit and then also passes out. At this point the FO executes a simulator perfect Emergency Descent and saves the airplane (and the company). This all happened a few days after ValueJet had crashed in the Everglades. ATA got crucified in the media and was forced to furlough 65 pilots including the FO that saved the company.
Thanks Ron for sharing this story. The B727 FE panel tripped up more than a few FE/SO’s.
Now that is a great story!
Ron, we were both 727 second officers at ORD at the same time. I was on the panel from 1986-1990 and was a second officer LCA 1988-1990. I had to retire on January 18, 2015 at age 65 but am still flying professionally at 74 in a Pilatus PC-12NG singe engine turboprop.
He was obviously shouting due to his own incompetence. Listening to you I imagine it takes quite a bit to tick you off.
I used to be good friends with a British Airways flight engineer. He started on Britannias, then on to VC10s and finished up on 747/100s. He retired from BA and was then head hunted by Virgin and in his words 'did another 3 years crossing the pond'.
I scream, you scream, we all scream for anti-icing..
Thank You for calling out incompetence when you see it. It's hard to report a fellow Pilot, and other pilots will call you a traitor , a company rat. I call it professional and keeping the passengers safe. you can't allow this guy to teach other pilots when he doesn't understand it himself... Well Done.. We need more professionals like you.
I think he gave the guy more than enough chances, the fact he wasn't prepared to do the same thing when he was supposed to be instructing somebody else was the straw that broke the camels back.
@@johnkerr4645 For me, all I care about is a competent professional Flight crew. This guy was a toxic, Know it all, that knew nothing. The only place this guy belongs in the air industry is pumping the crap out of the sh1ters while the plane is refueling
Gotta be ready and able to back your people up when they are doing the right thing per process/procedure/command. Always. That’s just leadership plain and simple.
Thank you for your service.
I was hired as a 727 FE by a large American airline in 1986. The culture of screaming check airmen was not only acceptable, it was encouraged at that time. I retired having spent 25 years a Captain on S80, F100, 737, 777. That first year training was savage and counterproductive. Learning suffered for it.
I started out in the right seat of the 727 at Evergreen because we had PFE’s and upgraded to Captain 13 months later. Got hired at Alaska as an FE on the three holer and was the last one to get a Captain bid on it before we got rid of them. Flew everywhere from Russia-Dead Horse and Acapulco. I retired in 2020 after 35 years and when ever I dream about flying, it’s always a 727. It was as smooth as a ‘52 Buick Roadmaster.
As a USAF Instructor, we had Continuous issues with fellow Instructors who's technique was to try and terrorize perfection into students. You would see the mission frag for the day, see what I was paired with what stud, and you would just want to find the guy and brief him to just do thier best and ignore the yelling & insults.
There was no learning once someone shuts down from fear of anger when they are yelled at, insulted, or told how much worse they are than XYZ.
I.fact the stud is going to do the simple things they know, wrong, because they end up doubting themselves and are more worried about the response to wrong actions, than they are confident in thier right actions.
I wish that every instructor realised that. I’m one of those people who don’t respond well to being yelled at.
@@mikoto7693 there are certain environments where yelling and creating a high tension atmosphere is telorated and encouraged. Basic Training, when new entry members are in technical skills training environments Outside the classroom, during voluntary advanced level training & special operations courses...
But the setting should always be permissive and encourage learning in the classroom and academic events.
In a non-tactical, non-combat skill set, there should never be any kind of yelling or intentional creation of a hostile environment. Ever.
@@DocP91B Fair enough, I can understand that. Probably a good thing that I never tried to join the military. Yelling at me… just doesn’t really work very well. I’ll be focusing on either how to GTFO or shutting them out in endurance mode until I can leave. Whatever’s attempting to be learned probably won’t sink in.
@@mikoto7693 that's what happens a lot, and why we got mad at those instructors among us who acted like that. We were training professional aviation personnel. The got past thier basic stages. This was time. For serious learning of very in depth subject. They needed an educational atmosphere, not drill sergeants trying scare them. It was a place for actual teaching, not pulling rank and yelling. Very sad that some of those guys couldn't understand that.
Great story. I am retired F/A, 37 years at American. I was a recruiter and instructor at various times. Back in the early days, the pilots and flight attendants were all about keeping any issues we could on the airplane. No need to get the company involved. Except as in your case, you clearly had a training/safety issue. In my last years as a Purser on long haul flights, B777-300ER I made it clear during my briefing to the other 16 flight attendants that we could keep all issues to ourselves. However, I made it clear that if I saw a safety "violation," I had no choice but to report it to the Captain. Also, if the Captain suspected something and asked me a question, I had absolutely no choice but to always tell the truth. No Captain would ever be kept in the dark.
On a few occasions, a pilot might ask if I knew one of the flight attendants was "as nice as she seemed or married," I would tell him or her that I did not know. However, at some point, I would quietly tell the F/A that the Captain had politely asked a few questions about her/him. I make it clear that if there is some mutual interest, they might want to go to the cockpit for a visit.
Those were the good old days. I have been retired for 10 years and three months as I write this in 2/2/2013. I do not miss anything about the industry. I look forward to the retirement check being deposited into my checking account on the first of each month. Be well.
Thanks for the memories!
What a lovely story. Well done sir. Pressurisation can be a tricky system. Many moons ago I was the FO on a Fokker F27 on a freight charter from England up to Sweden in the middle of a dark and stormy night (they all seemed dark and stormy on the F27). I don’t remember all the technical details but the normal pressurisation system had no sense of duty and, while my Captain flew the aeroplane, I flew the pressurisation needle valve which had a delay in reacting to my switch inputs of about ten seconds. We endured about four hours of the cabin altitude alternately climbing and descending at 4000 ft/min. The Captain, the loadmaster and I all had very well flexed eardrums by the time we got to Stockholm!
This Captain REALLY misses the Airline Days lol. 727. Best ever! Good video. Thanks!
nice recap of that flying time
with some good insights
kept it humble and safe , thats what we ( passengers ) like
Thanks, Captain Rogers for a stroll down memory lane. I was a UAL 727 second officer at ORD in 1996. Moved to the Airbus in 1997 and have been flying them out of DCA ever since. We crossed paths a couple times. I appreciate your sharing of experience and how things were done in the “good ol’ days”. Keep the content coming!
I've always wished I could be a pilot and I love hearing your stories. Thanks Ron!
I was a flight engineer in the USAF, we had to know all the numbers not “ its in the green , ..or yellow” or theres a light for that. I just cringe when i hear those words. I was so amazed when i started civilian commercial flying at the lack of nuts and bolts knowledge. Granted , you dont need to build your plane before you fly but it sure helps when youre problem solving.
Over my almost 4 decade airline career, things went from "you had to be able to build it" to very little technical knowledge required.
Good story. Don't put up with people's disrespect of others.
Captain, love your channel and stories. Rotary pilot here, US Army AH64 Delta, then on to civilian life Air Ambulance company. My passengers never complain much, sure love the information you put out and the knowledge you posses. BRAVO
Thank you Ron, enjoyed this!
My father was UAL Captain James M. Hykes, flew 1960-1994, SFO based.
To me, the 727 was the sexiest of airliners. I've got thousands of miles as a passenger with some visits to the cockpit (yes kids, you could do that once upon a time) and got to tour one at the AA Flight Academy in the 70s. I mean the feel, the way those ex-military guys could handle it, the crew concept, everything.
My favorite liner in FSX is the B722. Just love it.
These 727 videos really take me back. In the mid 80's I took some courses on aircraft systems using the 727 as an example in a lot of cases and the final course in the series would have been to get the 727 flight engineer rating. For a number of reasons, I didn't carry on with that mainly because it was clear that the 727 wasn't going to be around a lot longer but I knew that machine pretty well at one time.
Cost-conscious FedEx flew them until circa 2012... phenomenal wing design.
Great video, I literally know nothing about flying but enjoyed that immensely.
I love the 727. I started out working on them in the 90s and had a lot of great experiences doing maintenance on them and taxiing them. Now I run a 145 repair facility and we do repairs on the cabin pressure controllers as well as the control panel you highlighted in the video. This was a great video highlighting that knowledge of the aircraft systems is critical, and my best technicians are the ones who have experience working on the aircraft because they know the systems.
the lead sled
Congrats on a wonderful career and thank you for sharing your story! I’m a current 787 LCP (New term for LCA) and have been a check airman for over two decades with UAL. It is important to respect people and have a good bedside manner. Brought back memories, with the photos of the 727. I was an engineer and Captain on the Tri-Motor. Keep the videos coming!
Hi Captain,
Thanks for the thorough (with brevity upheld) narration of the event, and for titling the clip from a Human Factors stand-point. I would pass this clip onto my flight school and small online pilot group. Look forward to tuning into more of your invaluable stories.
Thanks for that!
Been gone ovet 19 years from the Mainline Airway, Ron, but it felt like so many of the informative enroute chats I had in my 26-1/2 years there.Thanks for a great vid. Me? Tweets, White Rockets 70-02 Vance, Tanks, then lotsa nonsked bum hours before Untied picked me up at age 34. Guppy LCA; last 6 years were in the Boeing Anteater (-757). Loved it all.
Thank you for keeping the skies safe. Really enjoyed listening to you, the details that you go in to are fascinating. Thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed it
Great example of leadership there. You take care of your crew and report incompitence. As a commissioning manager I deal with a lot of young guys that are technically very proficient but still have not learnt the "cooperative" element. It can be tough but the one thing you never do is raise your voice. That is something I cover always during the start up meetings with the crew - at EVERY job!
The Japanese have a very good expression I like to use, " the first person who raises their voice loses!"
As a B727 FE, your biggest time to shine or fail abysmally was the emergency gear extension procedure! Only had to do that ONCE. ( I had created my own visual quick checklist for this procedure, leaving nothing to chance, with a drawing of the proper sequence and direction to crank the gear ) Worked like a charm.
Yes, I saw one engineer who turned the manual gear extension into an art form!
@@ronrogers We had a great FE program at Piedmont.
"Do not yell at my Second Officer!You are done as an Instructor!"
As a B-52 Crew Chief I was on a ride-along flight once and there was an instructor Navigator onboard. So there we go through the low-level portion of the flight and this is where the instructor really expects the trainee to be firing on all cylinders. The instructor is being tough on the trainee and barking out orders and fine tuning his performance. But as the flight went along......down low as we were.....the trainee was getting behind the power curve. The instructor kept riding him harder and harder which wasn't helping anything at all. At one point the co-pilot yells over at the aircraft commander "Hey, we're on the wrong side of the river!" ....which put us up against some high terrain to our right. The AC gets on the interphone and insists that he get a proper heading RIGHT NOW or he was going to blow off the low level flight. So instructor starts REALLY riding the trainees tail.....as if we were in a simulator or something. I say to the AC "Why doesn't he leave him alone long enough to give you a heading????" The AC gives me the wait sign with his hand. Instructor ratchets up his pressure on the trainee and I spin out of my seat to give him a piece of my mind. The AC grabs me by my sleeve and spins me right back into the IP seat and then tells the Nav team, "We're blowing off this low level route. Co, make the call." And up we went. Later as we approached the runway he told the Nav team he wanted to talk to them. Fun times.
Good man! You remind me of me! I was a Locomotive Engineer who also trained others. I mastered my craft by LISTENING to others who knew theirs,so when I became and Instructor,I was well versed in my job and could teach without getting excited or condescending, In other words,a POOR instructor. Many of my students ended up in Supervisory positions or became very proficient Engineers themselves. Retired after 30 Years of safe running,without ONE single write up for poor running or rules deviation. A great career and a great life that sometimes I miss.
Yelling in the cockpit, just a no no. Nice job on setting the proper tone for safety and respect.
Exactly. I know of way too many crashes caused by the captain bullying the FO into silence then started making mistakes.
YeeHaw! Gosh this video brought back a lot of memories and stories from my days at Northwest Airlines on the 3 Holer as a wrench. I had a First Officer on one trip that was a real piece of work and he rode my tail every leg. The Captain was a gem and a truly great guy to work with and saw the FO was getting on my case. The Captain scolded him privately a couple of times before he finally lost his temper with him in the cockpit on day 4 of a 5 day trip. He really let him have it too. On the NWA 727s the ignition toggle switch went left and right and the seat belt sign was aligned fore and aft. Captain Dureau pointed to the seat belt switch and told the FO "For the remainder of this trip this will be your stick." then to the ignition switch "and this will be your rudder. SHUT THE F$*& UP!!" I ended my airline career after 31 years, the last 21 as a DC-9 then A320 Captain and like you, I never bent any metal, never had to answer to a chief pilot or FAA suit, never injured a fellow crewmember or passenger. The only downside to my career was the delta merger and those boneheads closed MEM where I had been for 19 years.
The moment I saw the title I figured this was a run in with a military guy. My favorite thing about leaving the Marines was not having to yell at people any more but I guess it never leaves some people’s systems. Fantastic story telling!
Funny thing was it was a civilian background pilot yelling at an experienced military pilot.
@@ronrogers Belay my last then. Misunderstood the situation hah.
Great story telling...Ty! I'm a CA for SWA ....been SWA 20 years....love hearing all these older AC stories....your story telling is really great...Thankyou!
Glad you enjoyed it
Yelling at people doesn’t teach them or help them learn! Being too nice doesn’t either being firm and respectful is a great thing don’t act like ur friends but not enemies and let them know you need to know these things
Good Job Captain..... I had a similar situation with a Captain instructor. He was teaching his own techniques and not by the book. Dangerous to say the least. Had to put him back in training. My role at the time was Fleet Check Captain with many thousand hours on the bird. Keep um safe and blue side up.
Thanks for the great story. Crew resource management is so important. Being nasty is how captains have scared first officers to clam up and not say anything in an emergency. I loved the 727 it was a nice plane. More of a challenge to fly. Then the new Boeings with auto land. All the automation makes it easy but you must still be on your game when problems come up. Having a mechanical or electrical engineering background is nice. A better understanding of the systems is always good.
Thank you, this brought back memories of when I worked on the 727-100 and 200. Overhaul and C- Checks at SFO maintenance base. I will be retiring in April after 35 years of service with United.
Another great story. Thanks.
Thanks for listening
A pleasure to listen to and learn from
Ah, reminders of the 727. I was with American. They didn't trust the 'automatic pressurization" so we had a lot of 727's with manual. After a point Boeing wouldn't put the manual on the airplane so subsequent airplanes got the automatic. The manual system requires a bit if finess to keep from getting high rates of climb or descent(the more painful one). It was a real pain. I also was an FE on the 707--all manual systems. The 777 was like on a different planet from the early airplanes. Fuel balance on long flights in the 727 (& DC-9) could be a problem too. I remember frequently having to balance the 727 on long flights. I retired in 2005.
I once did a similar thing: While preparing for my PPL check ride I said the flight examiner that was assigned to me: "You're done as a a flight examiner!" That happened in 2012; he hasn't been a flight examiner since.
I enjoyed it very much. We groundhogs know very little about what goes on up in the cockpit and stories like this educates us as to what goes on up there. With your words and pictures helps us understand what it takes to fly one of those birds.
Thank you for being such a great pilot!
Your chanel popped up on "You might like this" suggestions. I'm just a retired PPL after about 35yrs of totally enjoyable aviating. Absolutely LOVE the stories like this from the industry. So I've subscribed and will spend a good bit of time going through your previous videos. Oh... I haven't bent an airplane or hurt anyone either 😄
Cheers
Pete'
New Zealand.
Welcome aboard!
I used to start my checkrides by telling the students: "Those who can - do. Those who can't - teach. Those who can't teach - give checkrides". You always get a better performance from a relaxed crew.
Ron, I really enjoyed this trip to the past. I flew for Delta Airlines from February 1979 to August 2019. I spent 12 years on the 727 and finished on the B777 like you did (seniority number one Captain in LAX). I agree with everything you said in this video, especially on the 'oil filter bypass' issue. I was a SO on the 727 when I got the light (number 3 as well!). The Captain wanted to shut the engine down. I quickly thought of a way around this by calling the company and talking to the maintenance coordinator. The mechanic said 'don't shut it down'; there is a know issue of false warnings on the detector. Fortunately, this message allowed the Captain to do the right thing and leave it running at idle. I learned a lesson on how to influence the outcome of a flight even as a junior crew member; and still respect the Captains authority.
Thanks Ron, very helpful. I hope I’ll do as well as you with CRM. I’ve been a mechanic my whole career with a little flying on the side. I got laid off from building water bombers so my wife sent me off to flight school to get an instructor rating. I instructed here and there but the schools keep going under. I took a temp job teaching aircraft maintenance at the local college. It was a great experience but I’m at loose ends again. I’m told the airlines are scraping the barrel so I’m writing the ATPL exams. Looks like I’m going to be the world’s oldest copilot. Wish me luck.
Good luck buddy! 👍
Good luck!
Hang in there. My son's airline has been hiring a lot of older guys.
You know getting to the point of sitting on the flight deck as a qualified second officer is not an easy thing to do. It does take some dedication and hard work. But to get to the flight deck as an unqualified second officer, it seems like it would take even more dedication and hard work. I can't begin to imagine how a person would go about and fool the system.
Very much enjoyed listening to this. Your discussion of systems has me riveted! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
The yellow 727 reminds me of the old Hughes AirWest livery. The big banana in the sky.
Enjoy your stories Ron. Spent a lot of time on the 727.
That instructor sounds like my examiner, back when I got my PPL in Long Island. I still can't believe that someone like that was a flight examiner. Great vid! Really enjoyed it! Subscribed.
I love these stories!
I enjoyed your recapping of the scenario. I especially enjoyed you diving into the aircraft system’s technical aspects (being an engineer myself). Regards.
Thanks for sharing that story. It was more than satisfying to hear that at the end of the day the scales were balanced.
I believe the old quote is “level heads prevail.”.
I’m retired also. Did my last landing into ORD (my last base). I’m enjoying your channel! Thanks for the memories!
Sounds like you did good work. The last thing you need in the cockpit is a toxic, combative environment.
Sometimes, crew resource management means removing someone from the crew...
I am so glad that I got to fly the 727 as a copilot. That was an amazing airplane
Man, that brings me memories, I was a SO and FO in the 727. I knew all you were talking about!!!!
Love hearing these stories .... thank you for sharing
Glad you like them!
I flew Braniff 727's back & forth between Texas & New York for 4 years. A few years later Braniff went belly-up and I was blessed to have a Braniff pilot for a flight instructor.
I remember one February, maybe 1976 or 77, our family were set to fly from LGA to Chicago, then switch to a flight bound for Denver. It was a ski trip. But at LGA we found all flights through Chicago were canceled.
So, I think we flew United to DFW, then switched to a Braniff 727 to continue on to Denvers Stapleton Airport. Quite an adventure and the only time I ever set foot in Texas. Could you have been our pilot?
@@RaptorFromWeegee He might have been your pilot. And if so, you were in good hands. I am just a low-hour private pilot who let his currency lapse many years ago.
Thanks for the video, Captain! I love that you’re giving us schematics and checklists. And I like your storytelling style, straight to the point. Subscribed.
I enjoyed your story. I was a BA pilot man and boy and like you ended up on the 777 for the last few years, 20k hrs mostly shorthaul and regional in sector terms but many many hours of absolute boredom watching the auto pilot have all the fun. The CRM aspects of your video illustrates entirely how awful the training system could be in the old days and and how it improved immeasurably in the last years of my career. The ones who shouted much and offered little are very few and far now(I hope) and generally were those whose competence was the least.
I hope to begin training to be a commercial airline pilot myself this summer. I love learning all things airplane. Thank you for the video. 👍
Best of luck!
I just found your channel and the stories you tell sound like the ones that my father’s friends (he was friends with a few pilots) used to tell from their days at Qantas and Ansett in the 90s. It was what pushed me to learn to fly, although I went into another industry. I’m now getting back into flying and pursuing it as a career change at 40. I hope to one day be able to similar stories about my flying.
Very informative and entertaining.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I worked as a FA for United In the 70s and flew on the 727 so many times when I first started. Loved them compared to 737 to work in. United was a great experience for me. I flew small planes later in my life. When we had an empty plane to go pick up passengers the cockpit used into let me sit up in front during landings and listen in on the radio. No passengers aboard so... Good days. Loved your video
Thanks for sharing
There's something about those three engine airplanes. I know they are not efficient enough to be economic, but I do like the overall shape. Great stories, thanks!
Totally agree
Very knowledgeable Captain
I had my share of psychos posing as instructors/check airmen and I always told myself that I would never become one like them. I retired after a 44 year career and kept my promise. Those people do not belong inside a cockpit.
Love your stories! Thank you. Love your presentation style.