I am a DPE and would like to add a bit. This was a great presentation. The viewers also need to know that we DPEs are hanging it on the line with each Practical Test we conduct. We are not protected under the liability protection that the FAA Inspectors work under while conducting tests. If we make an error, we are personally responsible and are standing at the end of the pier all by ourselves. Secondly, and just a choice of words, I have never failed or passed an Applicant on a Practical Test. I evaluate the applicant based on the appropriate set of standards (ACS or PTS). The applicant either meets the Standards or does not. The DPE just does the paperwork.
Let’s talk about what this is really all about. Why is being a DPE a desirable position? You said you put your ass on the line at the beginning of your comment, but in the last line you say a DPE just does the paperwork. So, you put you ass on the line doing paperwork? Isn’t this all about money? Check rides are expensive to say the least. Let’s regulate what a DPE can charge and break up the DPE union where the DPE charges whatever they want. Let’s regulate them to the going flight instruction rate in their area and see how many then keep doing check rides. You people want changes? Fine. Let’s change the whole DPE MO and regulate them like regular employee’s. Put em’ on a time clock like an airline pilot. See how that goes. Probably find some great deals then on DPE’s having a fire sale unloading their toys if that was the case. Yep, this is all about money.
I've been hearing about this and knowing the time line makes it even more interesting. I would agree that if the FAA or local leaders are going to do things like this in an arbitrary and at will way, it's going to hurt aviation and safety. Right now there is a movement of aviation influencers and content creators sharing their mistakes, what they've learned, and chat changes they're going to make to be safer next time. I would hate to see that start to change as pilots basically go back into hiding in fear of their certificates. I just started working with the safety group in my area and this is actually giving me pause in wanting to continue knowing that FAA representatives and FSDO members are commonly in attendance.
@@DudeBro571 I talk to my FAA field office all the time. They know who I am. Let’s just say that they have a very different perspective on things. According to numerous inspectors I have spoken to over the years, they are short staffed and tasked with Part 121 first and foremost. They leave the Part 91 folks alone until you do something really stupid for the most part.
I have flown with Ken and Tres, both are consummate professionals. Ken is hard right over the easy wrong type of DPE. I hope he gets a fair shake in this deal.
He may have had the 'Authority', but it was not a right thing to do. Well said Dan, and I also question the validation of the firing. Thanks for sharing.
I don’t think the FAA would care. We are in charge, we have the power. You want a rating it’s up to you... would not surprise me. When you have little kingdoms, Kings will rule it.
And why would the FAA care if we have fewer pilots? Means less work for them and we know that government bureaucracies never shrink to fit a reduced need or workload so their jobs are safe in any event.
In the early 80s I took an introductory college course in aviation law. The super-knowledgeable pilot/lawyer instructor drummed one thing into us: Do not talk to the FAA. If you have an airman's certificate, one clown at one FSDO can ruin your life. Everything that you have heard about not talking to the police is doubly true when you encounter the feds. I worked as an ASI for a short time before I realized what a dysfunctional agency I had gotten myself into. My advice: LAWYER UP!
Apparent reasons for terminating Mr. Wittekiend: 1. He didn't denounce a pilot for doing something the other pilot already said he wouldn't do again, _because of a conversation he already had with Mr. Wittekiend._ 2. He took a sip of an unidentified liquid from what may or may not have been a wine glass. Seems pretty specious to me. It's not unreasonable to suspect that Mr. Morales had an axe to grind, for some reason. Hopefully, more will be revealed.
And hopefully his second wish gets realized. The government does everything without any consequences. They need to be held accountable. And what's wrong with having a glass of wine in your house? My house is not a fucking school. I could be butt ass naked if I want, why that bothers those tiny ass faa employees?
I feel for Ken, I worked for the defense department when faced with a similar issue. The government played hardball until I retained an attorney. At that point, the government was will big to resolve the issue. Ken may be best served to retain a labor attorney. There are several in the DC area, though Ken may not want to go back to that office
Wow! Thanks for giving the background to this scenario which is playing out. I was aware something was going on but didn’t know the back story. I appreciate not only your thoroughness in explanation, but also your stance on doing the right thing, even if one has the right to do something else. Kudos!
FAA approved doctors administered tests to Hoover showing he was perfectly fit, but the FAA revocation prevailed. Hoover went to Australia and flew airshows there with an Australian certificate. It took a new FAA administrator to reinstate Hoover in the US.
Dan - I completely agree on the reversing course and not continuing to beat on a path you are clearly wrong on. I absolutely HATE when I go down this path and am getting much better in accepting responsibility for my actions and not pressing on. I had an issue a few years ago in my job where I pretty much dropped a nuclear bomb on a bridge in a very public fashion. It was unsavory and distasteful and honest very wrong of me to do it. When I was called into a meeting with a boss, I had had time to reflect upon my actions and fully accepted responsibility for how wrong I was including making a very sincere apology to the individual whom I created the rift with. Even though he was gracious in accepting my apology I feel like I damaged a working relationship that won't be able to be repaired. I know apologizing was the bare minimum I could do at that time as I am unable to undo the other damage. So I completely empathize with your situation and appreciate your emphasis on it in this video. As for the FSDO - I sure hope all is aired out on this. Someone is clearly in the wrong and I really doubt it's the DPE based on the current evidence.
Thank you for breaking down this one. I had heard the story on Facebook and couldn't believe that's really the justifications they used. This whole thing is absolutely absurd.
It is so very expensive for these DPE's to stay current and put in the hours necessary to maintain their credentials and charging me $500 or $800 for the oral-exam and flight test doesn't put a dent in their costs. There is a real shortage in DPE's in many regions including the Midwest. It often takes 2 to 6 months just schedule a check-ride depending on availability of the aircraft, work schedules, and the weather. Many of the Best and most experienced DPE's are also in the over 55 age group where they have to contend with FAA medical requirements and often special-issuance medicals that can get quite expensive. Getting back into aviation after a 15 year hiatus took me a few hours in the airplane, but fully 7 months and $3800 in medical insurance deductibles to get in the air. They need 60 hours as PIC plus 10 in each class of aircraft. Check rides don't count. If they don't own their own aircraft, that's still a $7000 to $12,000 minimum expense and could cost up to $18,000 + just to stay current.
Many just don’t understand this. They just see all the fat stacks they get and not realize that in addition to all the things you mention, they have to pay their way to all the FAA mandated mtgs and such.
Very well done. Clear and well balanced. The problem has been framed perfectly. The solution is a no brainer and the outcome is that Ken and all DPE’s should have due process and not be open to the whims of the local FSDO management. It is time for the top levels of the FAA to listen to the people that are on the front line of training and aviation safety. Thank you for taking time to address this challenge.
Representatives of the Albany, NY FSDO have said that the FAA as a whole has shifted away from the historical punitive philosophy. Apparently the San Antonio FSDO is behind the times.
Yeah, I think most DPE's work to achieve this designation and position because of their love of aviation and it's a way to supplement their own flying and have an impact on future pilots. My DPE was Ray Noble (since passed on) back at KDXR in 1990. He had so much knowledge to pass on and once I was done w/ my checkride (except for the final landing) he kept me out in the sky for another hour and a half showing me his tricks and tips and having me fly the pattern without ever touching the yoke with just the rudder and throttle in a case where you lost the other controls. We figured that on our last of 3 attempts I would have had a fair shot at surviving the last approach. For those interested in his interesting life story, I saw a nice tribute to him in a flying magazine (AOPA?). I'm afraid that some random government functionaries can easily drive these amazing pilots from their ranks. Watching the Zoom call, it was not his place to become the enforcement voice of the FAA. He was a visitor to the call and some anecdotal comment from someone else - that may or may not have been true - should have no bearing on his career. Just a shame...
Great video Dan! 2 dew claws up. I am pulling for Ken even though I have never met save for that zoom meeting. (Nice cameo for me too!) FOIA requests should be sent in. If the FAA wants to play hardball, Senators should start getting phone calls. Their reasons for the termination lack even 1 cintella of legitimacy. Somebody at the FAA needs to be moved to the branch office in Iceland.
Great video! Not only a fantastic synopsis of the situation, but a lesson to be learned for all of us pilots and even a lesson for all of us humans; to do the right thing.
Over time I have experienced and witnessed similar scenarios working in private industry. Actually these same scenarios arised when I was in Boy Scouts and 3rd grade through High School. Think back and you may recall similar experiences. A friend of mine told me back in the 1970s. ” If you want to get screwed over. Join the Navy.” He was put on report for fixing a crane on his destroyer ship. He was a gunners mate in the early 60s. They sounded general quarters “ this is not a drill” . He loaded his 5 inch gun. He was sent to Captains mast and the captain backed him up. He got in trouble because the only way to clear the gun was to fire it. It loads with baged powder. His officer did not want to have to clean the gun. He told me if we have. WW3 it would bePearl Harbor all over again. He did not re up so they treated him like crap up to his last day. Not to diminish this in any way. Join the club. Good Luck with this. I am not a pilot. Love your channel. ❤
Accountability in only one direction is never a good thing. The FAA is notorious for this. Many DPEs walk on eggshells because they fear the same treatment.
flying is scary. Learning to fly is hard. Getting good at flying is expensive. Navigating a minefield of regulation pushes people to keep their head down and mouth shut. General Aviation is dying a slow death.
Why get in a real plane and deal with it all when flight simulators are getting better and better all the time and you can do anything there while sitting home?
I thought this was a well put-together argument. I especially appreciated that you maintained a necessary air of respect and a “benefit of the doubt” mindset on behalf of the the FAA. We likely do not have all of the available information in this situation - otherwise I stand with you in the idea that the argument becomes unreasonable. Call me naive - but I side with Tim McGraw in the belief that “Most People Are Good.” Hopefully time will make this situation more transparent and reveal what may currently be going on behind the scenes. Subscribed ✅
Good detailed analysis Dan.. on Spot!...for your follow up wouldn't hurt to list who at the Local or State level we can email or call ...Morales could use a seat warmer ;-/ in my opinion.
The system is not good. Here in Indy, we have a shortage of DPEs, and it’s well known that many of them are terrible. I took my private and instrument rides with an awesome examiner in Bowling Green KY. He has shared about his boss and his local colleagues doing things together at a high level...and it shows! Problem is...as you pointed out well...there are no standards to ensure the DPEs and their bosses are “doing the right thing”
It's a sad world we live in. DPE needs to be pardoned for this one. Termination is way out of line for not commenting. I agree a system needs to be put in place before you completely trash someone else's life based on an opinion.
Know a few instructors who are (were) very into the safety meetings and things just like this video meetings that got Ken fired they will no longer present or attend them because of this.
@@TakingOff same here makes my blood boil thinking of all the safety tips and info that will not be shared or talked about now, but if the FAA wants to do things like this I fully understand any instructors and any pilots taking part in something that could cost them a job or someone's license for the FAA FSDO getting their feelings hurt in someway like this seems.
This is ridiculous. I flew with Ken before and he was my DPE for my PPL Check-ride. He is a and awesome and professional DPE.. I hope this is resolved soon.
The Declaration of Independence The Declaration of Independence says that we not only have the right but we also have the duty to alter or abolish any government that does not secure our unalienable rights, including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The FAA isn't Happy till you're UNHappy.
Hey Dan. I love your monologue videos they are really well presented and I totally enjoy them. More please. Goo luck to Ken also. It's not a good way for a public service such as the FAA to act. Many thanks
There needs to be Legislative change towards the FAA on this subject. Just as we as Pilots are regulated under law, FAA regulations need to be clear on DPE and who can and can not dismiss a DPE. FSDO/FAA does not have the infrastructure to support all the check-rides across the America. This decision though on the merits would warrant admonishment or reprimand but certainly not termination. FAA wants more Pilots and Examiners.
Yes, in 2018 they removed boundary restrictions for DPEs because of the shorage. When I was ready to take my sport pilot practical in Aug 2018 I could not find a close DPE who would fly in the aircraft I trained in. A year later the FSDO did finally reinstate a DPE who was willing to do my practical, got my license in October 2019.
@@ulbuilder That's insane and unacceptable, if the FAA can't get you a person to do the test, then they need to make exceptions, otherwise they will eventually run out of pilots to fund the FAA. And yet they feel the need to arbitrarily fire people. If I were the DPE, it would feel like harassment. Fired for doing nothing wrong during a shortage. Work hard and get punished.
I'm not a pilot but a have 3 questions. Are DPE's paid by the students for the check rides? Are DPE's paid by the FAA for their work? If DPE's are not compensated by the FAA can they really be "fired" since they are volunteers and not employees?
Good points. DPEs cannot be “fired” as they are not employees or paid by the FAA. Instead, their contact is “terminated.” He Kriste students pay the DPE directly.
Being a DPE is not a right, it’s an honor and a privilege. That is why the FAA can pull DPE credentials without question. And, around here a DPE gets paid very well for putting their ass on the line, like $600 just for a PP check ride. Not bad money at all for 1-2 hrs. work.
Wow....guy sips wine, at his house, on a zoom call and gets fired for it. That is chicken shit firing if I ever hear of one. What about the guy who ski'd the plane, sure he's been fired and is no longer allowed to be associated with the FAA given he admitted to such a dangerous act. Also, Ken did say something, he said something to guy who ski'd the plane its not his responsibility to stand up in a zoom call and call someone out for doing something they should have....that's called respect. Something Mr. Morales obviously knows nothing about.......
I second this. The request could be for copies of any and all communications regarding Ken and copies of any and all recorded phone conversations regarding Ken between X and Y date.
3:19 Rut-row Scooby-Doo. I see ramp checks in your future. Ha ha.. Michael Carroll has no neck and looks like an "enforcer". I'm kidding. I also LOVE the FAA and we're best friends forever. 👌
Throughout our government, there is a lack of accountability. Except in THIS case, there is warped, false accountability. We have FAA mangers who demonstrate a lack of accountability, but who hold accountable this DPE, who wasn't even on duty during the time of the Zoom meeting, and who had NO DUTY to "stand up", and NO DUTY to teach. But, this is way too complicated for the managers in this case. Was there anything in the employee manual that delineated his job description, to require that he publicly "take a stand" while off duty during the Zoom meeting?? No- he's being held accountable to rules that don't exist. The managers should be held accountable to the standard of "Progressive Discipline", meaning that- IF there was a problem, Ken should have been asked to come into a low key office meeting and been made aware of the problem. He rightly should have been given a copy of a Warning Letter to be placed in his employee file, warning him of the problem here and that there was to be no repeat of the "problem", etc. Arbitration always requires Progressive Discipline, except in egregious cases. Ken should be re-instated and given full back pay, and the managers should be demoted and have a Warning Letter placed in THEIR flies. They can't seem to handle the power. It should be taken away. =PC=
I live in San Antonio Texas and struggled so much to find a DPE for my PPL. After 3 cancelled exams (2 DPEs canceling on me, and one because of weather) and 11 months later, I finally got to do my Checkride and get my PPL.
San Antonio has never in my experience been a friend to GA. I reported a dangerous pilot running a charter service without being certified to do so out of Kerrville. Such a dangerous pilot, worst I had ever delt with, told him to his face he was going to kill someone one day. gave the FAA all the evidence needed. Invoices, eyewitness testimony. They refused to intervene. He died with a student pilot in an A1 Yankee. Flying overweight and slow, spun in at low altitude. Terrible and completely preventable.
I am surprised at this. Is there anything else behind the scenes we don’t know about? And yes you are wrong😂 I enjoy your videos thank you for producing.
Great video! Thank you for shedding more light on the efforts of #pilotsforken . Very good point on even if the FSDO is well within their rights, it doesn’t make this right.
Oh the 80s! What I would give to live in that era again!! I was born in 1978 and look longingly at the 80s. It was a time when aviation, in all its forms, flourished and blossomed!
Perhaps the reasons given might have been just some of the reasons for the termination. There have been a few stories about happenings in Burnett prior to this event.
So unfortunate. I’ve heard of more than one story like this where DPEs are let go with no due process and no explanation. I do hope this results in reform.
That's just like the FAA. Regulations clearly provide for one to drink, as long as it does not affect flying. I cannot see how having a glass of wine while watching a webinar in your home is setting a poor example. As far as his skiing story, the comment Ken made was clearly a joke. The presenter went on to clearly state that skiing was not recommended. I don't see why Ken would feel the need, as an attendee, to but in to reiterate that point. Additionally, the FAA employee did not feel the need to speak up either, so why the double standard? Practical tests in Texas are currently 1.5 months out for scheduling, so excess personnel is certainly untrue.
I would have hoped that the FAA had ethical guidelines that would serve in the stead of specific mandates where this is concerned. If there are not, there need to be.
FAA over the last 15 years is a car going down the road with no one driving. I don't even pay attention anymore. Schools that have in-house, bought-off DPE that pass everyone, anyone can get a CFI rating nowadays. Great job with TWA 800, Allegiant, and the 737MAX by the way. Try policing the drones now that you are no longer interested in GA
A long time ago, the FSDO in my home town decided to shut down my flight school (I was a young instructor.) The long and short of it was I started getting shit from one of the inspectors. The solution? I got a US Senator involved. The inspector went on to do all sorts of shit duty until he was found to be mentally challenged and relieved of duty. Many inspectors are totally pissed because they never got an airline job and looking for a chance to kick some shins. Is that the case in SAT?
Interesting video. I would like to hear the FAA’s position. I do think the accountability issue is one to explore. I suspect the legislators will be involved.
To my knowledge there is no rule against "water skiing" nor is there a rule against drinking in your own home. Having worked in the Federal Government for 38 years {23 USMC/15 DOD } I can honestly say that though there are professionals {some of the best} there are also many who hold their job due to nepotism and other non-professional reasons. In the Federal Government there are what I call "rice bowls" a spear of power an individual has that they protect vigorously. There is a saying commonly used "Dont mess with that rice bowl". I do not know anybody involved, having said that it sounds like the DPE Ken messed with a rice bowl. In one of the videos I watched put on by some friends of him they were talking about how strict he is...having failed or refused to test a student over one mile on a cross country. The mile figured on leaving the airport from the closest side not the furthermost side. If thats true I cant agree with that either. From the outside looking in it very much sounds like a local power play from the FAA and if that is true I sincerely hope it gets rectified and the responsible person disciplined. If its not true and there was good reason for the firing, I hope that gets some airtime also. You stated your position clearly and fairly good on ya..
Sorry actions like this, are EXACTLY what will stop people from participating in these seminars.. This was such a MINOR thing, I would have thought a phone conversation could have let him know how they wanted him to act on things like this. Terminating him as a DPE?? Total lack of good discretion and good decision making in my opinion.. Isn't it the FAA that preaches GOOD DISCRETION and GOOD DECISION making to all of us as pilots??
"Skiing a plane is so much fun" spoken at an aviation safety meeting? Flying under bridges might be fun for the same person. If an accident occurred during any this, what would the probable cause be? Newer pilots might get the same idea and give it a try. Aircraft totally destroyed, potential loss of life, but "it sure was fun".
Lesson learned. Do not participate in FAAST meetings because the FAA is observing your behavior for possible retribution. Great job San Antonio FSDO.
I am a DPE and would like to add a bit. This was a great presentation. The viewers also need to know that we DPEs are hanging it on the line with each Practical Test we conduct. We are not protected under the liability protection that the FAA Inspectors work under while conducting tests. If we make an error, we are personally responsible and are standing at the end of the pier all by ourselves. Secondly, and just a choice of words, I have never failed or passed an Applicant on a Practical Test. I evaluate the applicant based on the appropriate set of standards (ACS or PTS). The applicant either meets the Standards or does not. The DPE just does the paperwork.
Great input Larry. And I’ll always take a thumbs up from a DPE!
WELL SAID
I want you for my checkride!
Let’s talk about what this is really all about. Why is being a DPE a desirable position? You said you put your ass on the line at the beginning of your comment, but in the last line you say a DPE just does the paperwork. So, you put you ass on the line doing paperwork?
Isn’t this all about money? Check rides are expensive to say the least. Let’s regulate what a DPE can charge and break up the DPE union where the DPE charges whatever they want. Let’s regulate them to the going flight instruction rate in their area and see how many then keep doing check rides.
You people want changes? Fine. Let’s change the whole DPE MO and regulate them like regular employee’s. Put em’ on a time clock like an airline pilot. See how that goes. Probably find some great deals then on DPE’s having a fire sale unloading their toys if that was the case.
Yep, this is all about money.
@@TakingOff 👍🏻
I've been hearing about this and knowing the time line makes it even more interesting. I would agree that if the FAA or local leaders are going to do things like this in an arbitrary and at will way, it's going to hurt aviation and safety. Right now there is a movement of aviation influencers and content creators sharing their mistakes, what they've learned, and chat changes they're going to make to be safer next time. I would hate to see that start to change as pilots basically go back into hiding in fear of their certificates. I just started working with the safety group in my area and this is actually giving me pause in wanting to continue knowing that FAA representatives and FSDO members are commonly in attendance.
I hope AOPA gets involved in this. This is wrong on so many levels. The FAA appears to be a tributary to the "Swamp".
Did he have a sip of some of his favorite beverage? How dare that guy
Looked like coke to me.
Looks like it was none of their business what he was sipping.
After 35 years in Aviation as an A&P/IA and ATP, I have just about given up with the FAA. The stories I could tell would blow your mind.
Don’t tell ‘em, Mr. Morales won’t like it.
Faa wants to know your location
@@DudeBro571 I talk to my FAA field office all the time. They know who I am. Let’s just say that they have a very different perspective on things. According to numerous inspectors I have spoken to over the years, they are short staffed and tasked with Part 121 first and foremost. They leave the Part 91 folks alone until you do something really stupid for the most part.
With those standards, it sounds like the "system" can be very corrupted. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I have flown with Ken and Tres, both are consummate professionals. Ken is hard right over the easy wrong type of DPE. I hope he gets a fair shake in this deal.
Thanks for putting this together for #pilotsforken Dan and for helping this cause for the aviation community!
He may have had the 'Authority', but it was not a right thing to do.
Well said Dan, and I also question the validation of the firing.
Thanks for sharing.
FAA would be up the creek if all the DPE's decided it wasn't worth doing the FAA's job anymore. Getting a rating would come to a halt quick.
I don’t think the FAA would care. We are in charge, we have the power. You want a rating it’s up to you... would not surprise me. When you have little kingdoms, Kings will rule it.
@@robertadams2857 Until you've ruled your kingdom into non-existance.
5695q What replaces might be a lot worse.
And why would the FAA care if we have fewer pilots? Means less work for them and we know that government bureaucracies never shrink to fit a reduced need or workload so their jobs are safe in any event.
In the early 80s I took an introductory college course in aviation law. The super-knowledgeable pilot/lawyer instructor drummed one thing into us: Do not talk to the FAA. If you have an airman's certificate, one clown at one FSDO can ruin your life. Everything that you have heard about not talking to the police is doubly true when you encounter the feds. I worked as an ASI for a short time before I realized what a dysfunctional agency I had gotten myself into. My advice: LAWYER UP!
Apparent reasons for terminating Mr. Wittekiend:
1. He didn't denounce a pilot for doing something the other pilot already said he wouldn't do again, _because of a conversation he already had with Mr. Wittekiend._
2. He took a sip of an unidentified liquid from what may or may not have been a wine glass.
Seems pretty specious to me. It's not unreasonable to suspect that Mr. Morales had an axe to grind, for some reason. Hopefully, more will be revealed.
And hopefully his second wish gets realized. The government does everything without any consequences. They need to be held accountable. And what's wrong with having a glass of wine in your house? My house is not a fucking school. I could be butt ass naked if I want, why that bothers those tiny ass faa employees?
I drink Coke from a wine glass while my wife enjoys her favorite Chardonnay.
@@jcheck6 I drink just about everything out of pint glasses...and beer of course!
Another excelent, well thought out and articulated rant, thanks Dan.
Thanks Dan! I really like your analysis. Hope the FAA take care about this
I feel for Ken, I worked for the defense department when faced with a similar issue. The government played hardball until I retained an attorney.
At that point, the government was will big to resolve the issue.
Ken may be best served to retain a labor attorney. There are several in the DC area, though Ken may not want to go back to that office
Wow! Thanks for giving the background to this scenario which is playing out. I was aware something was going on but didn’t know the back story. I appreciate not only your thoroughness in explanation, but also your stance on doing the right thing, even if one has the right to do something else. Kudos!
Thanks!
Used to be a DPE that wrote a column in Flying magazine in the 90s, the FAA terminated his stuff too. Protesting did nothing for him.
Yeah, it’s a long shot
remember these are the same people who said Bob Hoover could not fly because his routine was a little sloppy
I almost added that to my rant.
FAA approved doctors administered tests to Hoover showing he was perfectly fit, but the FAA revocation prevailed. Hoover went to Australia and flew airshows there with an Australian certificate. It took a new FAA administrator to reinstate Hoover in the US.
Well said, thanks for all you do 🤠👍
Thanks Mark.
Yet another sad story to hear in the world of aviation. I hope Mr Ken will have his day in front of the FAA higher ups!
Great video! You did the right thing making it!
Dan - I completely agree on the reversing course and not continuing to beat on a path you are clearly wrong on. I absolutely HATE when I go down this path and am getting much better in accepting responsibility for my actions and not pressing on. I had an issue a few years ago in my job where I pretty much dropped a nuclear bomb on a bridge in a very public fashion. It was unsavory and distasteful and honest very wrong of me to do it. When I was called into a meeting with a boss, I had had time to reflect upon my actions and fully accepted responsibility for how wrong I was including making a very sincere apology to the individual whom I created the rift with. Even though he was gracious in accepting my apology I feel like I damaged a working relationship that won't be able to be repaired. I know apologizing was the bare minimum I could do at that time as I am unable to undo the other damage. So I completely empathize with your situation and appreciate your emphasis on it in this video.
As for the FSDO - I sure hope all is aired out on this. Someone is clearly in the wrong and I really doubt it's the DPE based on the current evidence.
Thanks for sharing this Brian.
We all can relate gaffs we’ve made over the years and wish we had reversed course........ thanks for the reminder.
Thank you for breaking down this one. I had heard the story on Facebook and couldn't believe that's really the justifications they used. This whole thing is absolutely absurd.
It is so very expensive for these DPE's to stay current and put in the hours necessary to maintain their credentials and charging me $500 or $800 for the oral-exam and flight test doesn't put a dent in their costs. There is a real shortage in DPE's in many regions including the Midwest. It often takes 2 to 6 months just schedule a check-ride depending on availability of the aircraft, work schedules, and the weather. Many of the Best and most experienced DPE's are also in the over 55 age group where they have to contend with FAA medical requirements and often special-issuance medicals that can get quite expensive. Getting back into aviation after a 15 year hiatus took me a few hours in the airplane, but fully 7 months and $3800 in medical insurance deductibles to get in the air. They need 60 hours as PIC plus 10 in each class of aircraft. Check rides don't count. If they don't own their own aircraft, that's still a $7000 to $12,000 minimum expense and could cost up to $18,000 + just to stay current.
Many just don’t understand this. They just see all the fat stacks they get and not realize that in addition to all the things you mention, they have to pay their way to all the FAA mandated mtgs and such.
Very well done. Clear and well balanced. The problem has been framed perfectly. The solution is a no brainer and the outcome is that Ken and all DPE’s should have due process and not be open to the whims of the local FSDO management. It is time for the top levels of the FAA to listen to the people that are on the front line of training and aviation safety. Thank you for taking time to address this challenge.
Excellent Video Dan, well done.
From what I was able to learn, sounds like the DPE got a bad deal.
Great point and I agree!
Great job recapping and summarizing what took place!! Keep it up.
Thanks George!
"... certainly Bryan Turner does..." LOL
Finally, someone noticed.
Representatives of the Albany, NY FSDO have said that the FAA as a whole has shifted away from the historical punitive philosophy. Apparently the San Antonio FSDO is behind the times.
Yes, I"ve had good experiences with the FSDO in upstate NY (Rochester to be specific). That's where I got my commercial certificate.
Nice breakdown Dan. Great presentation of the facts as we know then and the context.
Thanks!
Yeah, I think most DPE's work to achieve this designation and position because of their love of aviation and it's a way to supplement their own flying and have an impact on future pilots. My DPE was Ray Noble (since passed on) back at KDXR in 1990. He had so much knowledge to pass on and once I was done w/ my checkride (except for the final landing) he kept me out in the sky for another hour and a half showing me his tricks and tips and having me fly the pattern without ever touching the yoke with just the rudder and throttle in a case where you lost the other controls. We figured that on our last of 3 attempts I would have had a fair shot at surviving the last approach. For those interested in his interesting life story, I saw a nice tribute to him in a flying magazine (AOPA?). I'm afraid that some random government functionaries can easily drive these amazing pilots from their ranks. Watching the Zoom call, it was not his place to become the enforcement voice of the FAA. He was a visitor to the call and some anecdotal comment from someone else - that may or may not have been true - should have no bearing on his career. Just a shame...
Thanks for sharing Paul-- he sounded amazing.
I did my instrument ride with Ray. You are right on all accounts. We did the no yoke patterns also.
@@v35james30 Hey James! What FBO(s) did you fly out of? I flew out of BlueBird at DXR most often and Reliant a few times! 😊👍
Great video Dan! 2 dew claws up. I am pulling for Ken even though I have never met save for that zoom meeting. (Nice cameo for me too!) FOIA requests should be sent in. If the FAA wants to play hardball, Senators should start getting phone calls. Their reasons for the termination lack even 1 cintella of legitimacy. Somebody at the FAA needs to be moved to the branch office in Iceland.
Don’t do that to Iceland.
🤣🤣🤣I love the little jab at Bryan Turner!
Thankfully, I live 400 feet from the border between the Dallas and San Antonio FSDO regions (on the Dallas side). Sounds like a clown show.
From the facts that are available, things clearly do not add up. My hope is the FAA will clear the air very soon.
Great video! Not only a fantastic synopsis of the situation, but a lesson to be learned for all of us pilots and even a lesson for all of us humans; to do the right thing.
Over time I have experienced and witnessed similar scenarios working in private industry. Actually these same scenarios arised when I was in Boy Scouts and 3rd grade through High School. Think back and you may recall similar experiences. A friend of mine told me back in the 1970s. ” If you want to get screwed over. Join the Navy.” He was put on report for fixing a crane on his destroyer ship. He was a gunners mate in the early 60s. They sounded general quarters “ this is not a drill” . He loaded his 5 inch gun. He was sent to Captains mast and the captain backed him up. He got in trouble because the only way to clear the gun was to fire it. It loads with baged powder. His officer did not want to have to clean the gun. He told me if we have. WW3 it would bePearl Harbor all over again. He did not re up so they treated him like crap up to his last day. Not to diminish this in any way. Join the club. Good Luck with this. I am not a pilot. Love your channel. ❤
I recently returned to the US and a DPE in Florida told me about this… I did my PPL check ride with Ken and I feel the outrage.
Loved this. Made me take a breath and think about life. Thank you!
Accountability in only one direction is never a good thing. The FAA is notorious for this. Many DPEs walk on eggshells because they fear the same treatment.
flying is scary.
Learning to fly is hard.
Getting good at flying is expensive.
Navigating a minefield of regulation pushes people to keep their head down and mouth shut.
General Aviation is dying a slow death.
Why get in a real plane and deal with it all when flight simulators are getting better and better all the time and you can do anything there while sitting home?
or just fly and don’t tell anyone, just don’t be stupid, get a small single seat or two seat plane and just stay quiet, I’ve heard many people do that
I thought this was a well put-together argument. I especially appreciated that you maintained a necessary air of respect and a “benefit of the doubt” mindset on behalf of the the FAA. We likely do not have all of the available information in this situation - otherwise I stand with you in the idea that the argument becomes unreasonable.
Call me naive - but I side with Tim McGraw in the belief that “Most People Are Good.” Hopefully time will make this situation more transparent and reveal what may currently be going on behind the scenes.
Subscribed ✅
I used to believe that firmly too, not anymore. There are a lot of holes out there. It is really surprising.
Seems like a fair and peer reviewed look into the reasons of releaving of a DPE of his/her duty is now not just a good odea but is required.
Good detailed analysis Dan.. on Spot!...for your follow up wouldn't hurt to list who at the Local or State level we can email or call ...Morales could use a seat warmer ;-/ in my opinion.
The system is not good. Here in Indy, we have a shortage of DPEs, and it’s well known that many of them are terrible. I took my private and instrument rides with an awesome examiner in Bowling Green KY. He has shared about his boss and his local colleagues doing things together at a high level...and it shows! Problem is...as you pointed out well...there are no standards to ensure the DPEs and their bosses are “doing the right thing”
Not what you know its who you know sadly
It's a sad world we live in. DPE needs to be pardoned for this one. Termination is way out of line for not commenting. I agree a system needs to be put in place before you completely trash someone else's life based on an opinion.
Know a few instructors who are (were) very into the safety meetings and things just like this video meetings that got Ken fired they will no longer present or attend them because of this.
this saddens me
You are exactly right :(
@@TakingOff same here makes my blood boil thinking of all the safety tips and info that will not be shared or talked about now, but if the FAA wants to do things like this I fully understand any instructors and any pilots taking part in something that could cost them a job or someone's license for the FAA FSDO getting their feelings hurt in someway like this seems.
Great video, well done and will said! Just do the RIGHT thing!
This is ridiculous. I flew with Ken before and he was my DPE for my PPL Check-ride. He is a and awesome and professional DPE.. I hope this is resolved soon.
The Declaration of Independence
The Declaration of Independence says that we not only have the right but we also have the duty to alter or abolish any government that does not secure our unalienable rights, including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
The FAA isn't Happy till you're UNHappy.
“Texians” got me rolling.
One thing to say Remember the Alamo! But when you say FAA you must say Remember Robert A. Hoover! The FAA says we are not happy till you are unhappy!
Hey Dan. I love your monologue videos they are really well presented and I totally enjoy them. More please. Goo luck to Ken also. It's not a good way for a public service such as the FAA to act. Many thanks
Thanks for the encouragement.
Informative and even handed, Dan. Well done.
There needs to be Legislative change towards the FAA on this subject. Just as we as Pilots are regulated under law, FAA regulations need to be clear on DPE and who can and can not dismiss a DPE. FSDO/FAA does not have the infrastructure to support all the check-rides across the America. This decision though on the merits would warrant admonishment or reprimand but certainly not termination.
FAA wants more Pilots and Examiners.
Isn't there a shortage of DPEs? there were when I was flight training about 5yrs ago
Yes, in 2018 they removed boundary restrictions for DPEs because of the shorage. When I was ready to take my sport pilot practical in Aug 2018 I could not find a close DPE who would fly in the aircraft I trained in. A year later the FSDO did finally reinstate a DPE who was willing to do my practical, got my license in October 2019.
@@ulbuilder That's insane and unacceptable, if the FAA can't get you a person to do the test, then they need to make exceptions, otherwise they will eventually run out of pilots to fund the FAA. And yet they feel the need to arbitrarily fire people. If I were the DPE, it would feel like harassment. Fired for doing nothing wrong during a shortage. Work hard and get punished.
@@SoloRenegade I blame Regulatory Capture, they mostly only seem to care about the airlines.
@@ulbuilder But airline pilots start as lowly pilots. And pilots like us still earn the FAA revenue and funding.
Trent Palmer did a UA-cam episode specifically about “skiing” and the FAA. You should watch that video.
What about an accountability for cfi’s that add unnecessary hours to your training before allowing a student to solo and test on their check ride.
We can recommend to others not to use a certain CFI that’s milking students. Can’t do that with the local FSDO- you have to use them.
I'm not a pilot but a have 3 questions. Are DPE's paid by the students for the check rides? Are DPE's paid by the FAA for their work? If DPE's are not compensated by the FAA can they really be "fired" since they are volunteers and not employees?
Good points. DPEs cannot be “fired” as they are not employees or paid by the FAA. Instead, their contact is “terminated.” He Kriste students pay the DPE directly.
Being a DPE is not a right, it’s an honor and a privilege. That is why the FAA can pull DPE credentials without question. And, around here a DPE gets paid very well for putting their ass on the line, like $600 just for a PP check ride. Not bad money at all for 1-2 hrs. work.
Wow....guy sips wine, at his house, on a zoom call and gets fired for it. That is chicken shit firing if I ever hear of one. What about the guy who ski'd the plane, sure he's been fired and is no longer allowed to be associated with the FAA given he admitted to such a dangerous act. Also, Ken did say something, he said something to guy who ski'd the plane its not his responsibility to stand up in a zoom call and call someone out for doing something they should have....that's called respect. Something Mr. Morales obviously knows nothing about.......
I was wanting to be a DPE for Private applicants in the future. The scenarios given at 2:26 I'm starting to reconsider that decision.
FOIA.... Submit a Freedom of Information Act request.... Nothing in that situation should be classified. Go get it.
Hmm.
I second this. The request could be for copies of any and all communications regarding Ken and copies of any and all recorded phone conversations regarding Ken between X and Y date.
3:19 Rut-row Scooby-Doo. I see ramp checks in your future. Ha ha.. Michael Carroll has no neck and looks like an "enforcer". I'm kidding. I also LOVE the FAA and we're best friends forever. 👌
Throughout our government, there is a lack of accountability. Except in THIS case, there is warped, false accountability.
We have FAA mangers who demonstrate a lack of accountability, but who hold accountable this DPE, who wasn't even on duty during the time of the Zoom meeting, and who had NO DUTY to "stand up", and NO DUTY to teach. But, this is way too complicated for the managers in this case.
Was there anything in the employee manual that delineated his job description, to require that he publicly "take a stand" while off duty during the Zoom meeting?? No- he's being held accountable to rules that don't exist.
The managers should be held accountable to the standard of "Progressive Discipline", meaning that- IF there was a problem, Ken should have been asked to come into a low key office meeting and been made aware of the problem. He rightly should have been given a copy of a Warning Letter to be placed in his employee file, warning him of the problem here and that there was to be no repeat of the "problem", etc. Arbitration always requires Progressive Discipline, except in egregious cases.
Ken should be re-instated and given full back pay, and the managers should be demoted and have a Warning Letter placed in THEIR flies.
They can't seem to handle the power. It should be taken away. =PC=
very well said. thank you.
The less interaction you have with the FAA, the better. My 40 years of interactions have all been good, but I keep a low profile.
I live in San Antonio Texas and struggled so much to find a DPE for my PPL. After 3 cancelled exams (2 DPEs canceling on me, and one because of weather) and 11 months later, I finally got to do my Checkride and get my PPL.
Wow. At least they lifted they geographical restrictions so you can get a DPE from north texas or other areas.
San Antonio has never in my experience been a friend to GA. I reported a dangerous pilot running a charter service without being certified to do so out of Kerrville. Such a dangerous pilot, worst I had ever delt with, told him to his face he was going to kill someone one day. gave the FAA all the evidence needed. Invoices, eyewitness testimony. They refused to intervene. He died with a student pilot in an A1 Yankee. Flying overweight and slow, spun in at low altitude. Terrible and completely preventable.
I’m looking into getting my PPL here in San Antonio. Which flight school do you recommend?
I am surprised at this. Is there anything else behind the scenes we don’t know about? And yes you are wrong😂 I enjoy your videos thank you for producing.
I’m so wrong. 🤣 that’s kinda my point, it’s either egregious or there’s something horrible about Ken that we don’t know.
Was he a high activity DPE? Did the other DPEs not like the competition? Just wondering 💭
Interesting.
Is Senator James Inhofe aware of this issue? If not, I would get him involved ASAP.
Great video! Thank you for shedding more light on the efforts of #pilotsforken . Very good point on even if the FSDO is well within their rights, it doesn’t make this right.
Back in the 80's, this was a good fsdo. Must have become infiltrated with politicians. 😥
Oh the 80s! What I would give to live in that era again!! I was born in 1978 and look longingly at the 80s. It was a time when aviation, in all its forms, flourished and blossomed!
Perhaps the reasons given might have been just some of the reasons for the termination. There have been a few stories about happenings in Burnett prior to this event.
Any follow-up to this given the two months time passage?
The thing to do is see who they designated as the DPE after the guy was let go. Might be part of the reason there.
Yup.
Good episode, Dan.
So unfortunate. I’ve heard of more than one story like this where DPEs are let go with no due process and no explanation. I do hope this results in reform.
Well done video, thank you
Thanks Steve.
That's just like the FAA. Regulations clearly provide for one to drink, as long as it does not affect flying. I cannot see how having a glass of wine while watching a webinar in your home is setting a poor example. As far as his skiing story, the comment Ken made was clearly a joke. The presenter went on to clearly state that skiing was not recommended. I don't see why Ken would feel the need, as an attendee, to but in to reiterate that point. Additionally, the FAA employee did not feel the need to speak up either, so why the double standard? Practical tests in Texas are currently 1.5 months out for scheduling, so excess personnel is certainly untrue.
FAA, step up and do the right thing. And put rules and procedures in place to clean up the wild west of no rules in the program oversight.
Absolutely...do the right thing...
Pretty common DPE’s get canned and often it is a curiosity as to why. I expect it is political.
I would have hoped that the FAA had ethical guidelines that would serve in the stead of specific mandates where this is concerned. If there are not, there need to be.
FAA over the last 15 years is a car going down the road with no one driving. I don't even pay attention anymore. Schools that have in-house, bought-off DPE that pass everyone, anyone can get a CFI rating nowadays. Great job with TWA 800, Allegiant, and the 737MAX by the way. Try policing the drones now that you are no longer interested in GA
The attending FAA employee in charge of FAST didn't stand up and say anything either, they need to fire him immediately.
FAA FSDO seems to have forgot who the work for. Perhaps we should pay them a visit at there house and ask?
Thank you great video...
A long time ago, the FSDO in my home town decided to shut down my flight school (I was a young instructor.) The long and short of it was I started getting shit from one of the inspectors. The solution? I got a US Senator involved. The inspector went on to do all sorts of shit duty until he was found to be mentally challenged and relieved of duty.
Many inspectors are totally pissed because they never got an airline job and looking for a chance to kick some shins. Is that the case in SAT?
Interesting video. I would like to hear the FAA’s position. I do think the accountability issue is one to explore. I suspect the legislators will be involved.
Would love to see a video on the horror stories of dealing with OK City Medical Certification Division.
Another FAA process in need of serious reform. But nooo, let’s have pilots avoid the doctor and go without mental health treatment, so much safer.
Unless there is more to the story, Christian Morales sounds like a real DB. Fire him and rehire Ken.
Very well done Dan, the concept of rite verse rite choice is something that we need to consider whenever we face a hard decision.
To my knowledge there is no rule against "water skiing" nor is there a rule against drinking in your own home. Having worked in the Federal Government for 38 years {23 USMC/15 DOD } I can honestly say that though there are professionals {some of the best} there are also many who hold their job due to nepotism and other non-professional reasons. In the Federal Government there are what I call "rice bowls" a spear of power an individual has that they protect vigorously. There is a saying commonly used "Dont mess with that rice bowl". I do not know anybody involved, having said that it sounds like the DPE Ken messed with a rice bowl. In one of the videos I watched put on by some friends of him they were talking about how strict he is...having failed or refused to test a student over one mile on a cross country. The mile figured on leaving the airport from the closest side not the furthermost side. If thats true I cant agree with that either. From the outside looking in it very much sounds like a local power play from the FAA and if that is true I sincerely hope it gets rectified and the responsible person disciplined. If its not true and there was good reason for the firing, I hope that gets some airtime also. You stated your position clearly and fairly good on ya..
Thank you for your service. 21 USAF and 17 Nuc Security. Fully retired now.
Sorry actions like this, are EXACTLY what will stop people from participating in these seminars.. This was such a MINOR thing, I would have thought a phone conversation could have let him know how they wanted him to act on things like this. Terminating him as a DPE?? Total lack of good discretion and good decision making in my opinion.. Isn't it the FAA that preaches GOOD DISCRETION and GOOD DECISION making to all of us as pilots??
"Skiing a plane is so much fun" spoken at an aviation safety meeting? Flying under bridges might be fun for the same person. If an accident occurred during any this, what would the probable cause be? Newer pilots might get the same idea and give it a try. Aircraft totally destroyed, potential loss of life, but "it sure was fun".
Where can I get that live weather map behind you?
Metarmaps.com tell them we sent ya!