The Surprising Truth of what the Cyrus Cylinder Says | Bible & Archaeology
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- Опубліковано 29 лис 2024
- Dr. Bob Cargill and Jordan Jones compare the Cyrus Cylinder and the book of Ezra and discuss what the Cyrus Cylinder does and doesn't say in this clip from May 31st's Bible & Archaeology Podcast!
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Thanks very much for your clear explanation. Very helpful. Question: Could Cyrus have given another degree, one specifically for the descendants of Judah?
It's a possibility but what are the odds? Regardless, the fundamentalists will treat even a slim possibility as a fact
@hankovereem4078
It is theoretically possible yes, but there are some reasons to be skeptical of the possibility. We discuss this a little bit more in our Live from June 7th (starting around 31:38). As we discuss there, one possible argument against this possibility is the biblical text of Isaiah 45. A verse like Isaiah 45:4, "I call you by your name, I surname you, though you do not know me," potentially makes less sense if one assumes that there is another decree made specifically for the descendants of Judah, especially if Cyrus addressed it to their local deity as he had with the Babylonians.
Ezra 4 and Isaiah 45 are not based on the Cyrus Cylinder. The Cyrus Cylinder was a text localized to the cult of Marduk in Babylon. Nabonidus was an adherent of a different cult, the Moon god, so the local priesthood felt disenfranchised. The focus is trying to make it good with Babylon as a city. I would suspect that this policy would not stop at the first city Cyrus conquered, either himself directly or local administrators would continue this policy to other cults where Cyrus would be claimed as a Messiah for each localized cult. What Isaiah 45 is doing is attempting to distance itself from Cyrus’s Zoroastrian religious views, while still acknowledging Cyrus as An Anointed. Isaiah 45:7 has Yahweh claiming the attributes of Both Zoroastrian deities as being under His authority, that is what ‘though you do not know me’ likely means.
The assumption here seems to be that only one cylinder - the one found, the one attributed to marduk, was written. But as stated, marduk was the god of the Babylonians, while dagon was the god of the Assyrians, Yahweh the God of the Jews etc. So it seems more logical to assume that on a cylinder ment for the Assyrians dagon would have been mentioned instead of marduk, and Yahweh instead of marduk on a cylinder ment for the Jews etc. The Book of Ezra make this the most plausible explanation. Cos King Cyrus could obviously afford more than one cylinder.
That's not necessarily more logical. The cylinder may have been specially adressed to Babylon because that was the seat of the biggest empire at the time in that area.
That said, there's scholarship on contact points and intertextuality between the cylinder and 2nd Isaiah. It may be the case that the author of Deutero-Isaiah is reproducing the same propaganda of the cylinder applied to Yhwh either encouraged by persian agents or out of an independent effort.
Very interesting indeed.
Wow, that’s intriguing! Thanks.
Glad you liked it!
@@bibleandarch ❤️🤘🏻
Who thought that the Cyrus cylinder said exactly what the decree of Cyrus says in Ezra 1? It seems like a straw man argument to presume that anyone did think that!
Ezra 1 is either based on an interpretation (favorable to the Judahites) of a portion of the Cyrus cylinder or ostensibly a separate decree of Cyrus... The decree in Ezra 1 was later found by the Achaemenid administration under Darius (presumably Darius II, as the chronology does not fit Darius the Great, given that this Darius in Ezra appears to follow Artaxerxes) according to Ezra, after the progress on the temple had been interrupted by nosy neighbors who petitioned the king(s) of Persia to halt construction... There is really no convincing argument either way, as Cyrus was willing to make political obeisance to Marduk and other gods for the sake of the Babylonians and other inhabitants of Babylon, so he would presumably have had no compunction in a separate decree acknowledging Yahweh, Judah, Jerusalem, etc., to appease the Judahites if he thought they could be of some use to him.
Likewise, Isaiah 45 is possibly/arguably a re-imagination of the Cyrus Cylinder from the Judahite perspective, but it could just as well have been based on another similar document from Babylon -- much of the language in the Cyrus cylinder is formulaic and not particularly unique to that document, though there are some quite unique (for the time and place) sentiments and directives in the Cyrus Cylinder.
Great points. I can easily see there not only being multiple copies to go out to the various affected cities, but that each cylinder would have specific local gods mentioned along with the standard boilerplate phrasing, as you said.
Isaiah was written 100 years before Cyrus, so they didnt know about the Cyrus Cylinder.
It just doesnt make sense that of all the people freed the Jews being at a high position like Ezra his people will not be mentioned . It also doesnt make sense that of all the cities mentioned Jerusalem being the most important isnt mentioned . It makes no sense that of all the Temples the Jerusalem temple being most famous isn't mentioned . Not even the God Yahwehbut instaed Marduk . Why ? because there were no people called Jews or Judaism till 2 BC when the number of converts became large enough to cause trouble to the Roman . Diana Edelman (Department of Biblical Studies at the University of Sheffield in the UK) has argued that the author of Second Isaiah somehow must have known Cyrus’ propaganda concerning the Esagila temple of Babylon and hence expressed similar hopes for the temple of Jerusalem, a point taken up later by the authors of Ezra and Chronicles
So you think the old testament was written 200 bc? If you study "Daniel" (not only in anti-bible surroundings) you will realize, that this can never be written 200 bc. He prophecied 4 world empires very specifically (Rome would be missing 200 bc), battles and movements and the most important: The messiah ~32ad with very spezific dating and his destruction. But it doesn't even end there, it continous till the future as well. Israel will have very much trouble till the end which has not come yet bc the descriptions have not happend so far. So 200 bc is too early - if there is no god behind that text - and today is too early as well.. (Everybody openminded can understand these dates in Daniel)
Look for mount ebal writing and you discover, that the name for Yaweh was around 1600bc written on lead. A text related to the description of Moses when they entered canaan, they should speak out a curse on mount ebal and blessings on mount gerizim.
"No jews bevore 200bc is based on a "current set of information" in your area. This will increase every day and be filtered. There have been found much more from the bible in archeology now!
@@BildgesunderWorte History contradicts the Bible in many parts. You have to be able to give a good explination as to why Cyrus mentions other nations , Temples, and cities within Babylon , but does NOT mentions "Jews or a Jewish Temple or Jerusalem . So yes Historically aswell as Biblically the words Jews or Judaism is missing from all records . Wrtting religious books does not have to comes with the Tribal affiliation . Moses wrote books before the word Jew exsisted and he was not a Jew, Abraham and Isaac were not Israeites or Jews . Yahwh is a Pagan God also associated with Seir, Edom , Paran and Teman and Canaan.Even Jewish biblical Historians are admitting to this .
@@Max42-42 Why are you pointing away from positive infos for the bible?
Think about your strategy: You want me to show why on this cylinder "jews".. are missing. That would only be relevant if this would be the only stone there is, wouldn't it? So you are going to a position where you don't know enough to even be slightly sure about that. His kingdom had more than 100 territories and I think the bible says, that he told this kind of thing to his entire empire. So it is possible that there were many more stones from which some tell more about other territories like jews, edom, ammon etc. But the idea of "restoring tempels of other nation gods" is a very good proof that the story is NOT "just invented". The video tells us that this was a diplomatic smart move. This suggests automatically that he wrote such decret for not only this teritorry but for other ppl with their "gods" too.
I was pointing you to the very easy to see wrong evaluation of modern academia regarding the book of daniel. 200 bc is impossible and any other time except where he documented it around ~600bc is just wrong. So if you analyse that and realise it, all your mentioned contradictions of modern academia vaporizeses imediately. With such an obvious wrong alaysis, that's not trustworthy for any mid-intelligent beeing. Please don't ignore my argument, your eternity is at stake and god gives us enough proof to see his finger in action.
A lead writing from mount ebal has Yahwh on it. They had to say a curse and exacly this incident is written down in short format. The bible dates it to ~1600bc, so; many of your history info should be discarded. Ofc moses and till Jakob weren't called isrealites. Jakob got the name, but they had the same history info of the one god who revealed himself to many people bevore israel. How can you be sure Yahwh is a pagan god? Do you have any other document with such detailed record for the whole time like in the bible? The god in the bible is one who say's he can not lie, he is truth, he loves people etc. So it is obvious that such a god would protect the whole record of history and all who don't like him have an urge to destroy these documents like we see even today. But we have enough, and it is increasing still.
(Sideinfo: If you only have a complete chronology in the bible, you can't say history contradict the bible. First you need an acurate timeline for history to even start comparing but somehow all other complete dates seem to be destroyed, even the documents of babylonians and persia which are mentioned in the bibel. They of course wrote it down for later kings and they were intelligent enough for that the whole time unlike modern academia suggests. I can show you an example of modern archeology where anti-bible resercher tryed to destroy findings which confirms the bible history.. "Luckily" the oldest people had the most long-lasting writings and buildings (biggest too), this alone is funny when modern people think we are more advanced and more intelligent.)
@@BildgesunderWorte There are no other stones that mention Jews, Judaism amd Jerusalem . e could have either skipped naming any tribes , Kingdomes and cities or mention the most importnat Jerusalem . The point is there were no people called Jews or Israeites anywhere . Maybe they were known as something else and are not . We are talking about Cyrus and the missing Jews .
@@Max42-42 Strange tactic. You hold your eyes closed infront of the big picture and cry for one spezific detail. And this detail may even got destroyed by some atheist archeology. We are not even close to unburry everything there is. What if they find it after you die? That's exactly why I don't start like that. Look at the parts we already have the answers and then you will see, there is only one history record which is without contradiction and surprises.
I think Yahweh was working behind the scenes