25 - Infrared DCC block detection | Digikeijs DR4088OPTO
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- Опубліковано 19 жов 2024
- Using Infrared proximity detectors to detect passing trains and provide DCC feedback data over s88 and loconet.
In order to automate my n-gauge model railway, I am using current sensing block detections to keep track of which train is in which block. However in order to be able to stop trains in a precise location, I am experimenting with embedding infrared LEDs and photodiodes in between the sleepers in order to detect when trains pass over the top of that track location. By using a Digikeijs DR4088 OPTO I can send DCC feedback information over the S88 network and then the loconet so that a computer running traincontroller, JRMI or iTrain can stop the locomotive at that location.
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Found the video very interesting. It's good you show all the problems you come across and how to solve them. Cheers John
Thanks John. Yes, I try to show some of the mistakes, while also maintaining the illusion of providing useful information. Thanks for your encouragement.
That was fascinating, and I even managed to understand the theory of what you are doing, but I would have to watch a lot of times to be able to do this myself. Keep up the good work.
Cheers for the kind words Alan. I is great for me that know that folk find some of the things I get up to interesting.
Many thanks for the inspiring videos.
I started experimenting with the IFR in the n-scale track.
1.8mm IR LED Pairs, Emitting Diode SIR2055 and Infrared Receiver Phototransistor SGPT2055B
Not placed at an angle and it
functions perfectly.
ua-cam.com/users/shortsX5tMVoAcoyY?feature=share
The sensors need to be mounted under the track at a 45 degree angle, sort of like a pyramid, where the beams come together about at under the frame of the loco. Otherwise, the beams are shooting straight up and reflecting straight down and your detection range is very limited ( bulb to bulb).
When setting these up across the rails, they are staggered at a 45 degree angle so that there are no false triggers between cars. Used more for block detection this way. Your way is simply for initial detection
Bob s
Good thought - I did wonder about that. Has doing it that way worked for you?
Absolutely correct!
Got a video going up tomorrow 15:00pm on opto sensors, Got this video linked in a card so they can see what inspired the video. All the best Tony
Awesome. Is it going to be a premiere? If not, it should be - it is good fun to watch a new video together with folks.
@@naivegauge I tried to set it up as premier and messed up so it gone live now 😂
lol
A master moduler with HO warned me about this. Also discussed on youtube in various places.
He also uses 3mm leds. They are mounted in line, not side by side, about a sleeper apart, to form that pyramid beam arrangement. In this arrangement when the LED comes on, you are pulling a HIGH signal. Across rails, the beam is always on until a loco comes by. Now you are breaking the beam and pulling a LOW signal. Arrange your detection module to look for the proper level signal.
Bob S
nice
Thanks for sharing that. Was easy to follow :) Well done!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I went through exactly the same process, but I wanted them in a hidden section and just couldn’t make them work in a dark covered situation. In the end I gave up, they were too hit and miss in set up and so now going for current detection. I do like the ability to bring trains to a halt in a section with your system, must look into that!
That is interesting. Many of mine will be in an underneath area so perhaps I will have the same problems. It did occur to me that light reflected from "ceiling" would be a problem, and so I might need to paint the underneath of the board above them in black. Oh - the adventures ahead!
@@naivegauge of course maybe I didn’t try hard enough, but did do a bit of research before I gave up, it’s the darkness that cause the problem, I have an idea that it’s something to do with that the variable pot settings and component values that are reacting within ambient lighting. If that makes sense.
OK. I think I will do a few more experiments then before I make too many assumptions about what it will be able to do. Thank you for the warning.
For n gauge I found replacing the 5mm LEDs with 3mm. Cheap as chips from a well known online seller. A 3mm hole is perfect between the sleepers and it's possible get both LEDs between a pair of sleepers quite neatly. Had to drill from underneath a 5mm hole to allow for the wiring
Yes, I found the 3mm components worked really well. I would be interested to know what you used the detectors for? Have you used them for DCC occupancy detection?
@@naivegauge I've been following Little Wicket Railway. Rob has done a fantastic series on DCC++ on the Arduino and has done a couple on sensors. One has been on IR where he uses JMRI to run a Back and Forth automata. I've managed to emulate this.
I have experimented a bit with the placement of the LEDs. Initially using them with aluminium foil with the engine breaking the beam. Next was embedding in the track either side of a sleeper which worked OK. I tried two sleepers apart at a a slight angle but that was a wash out. Finally got them in between two sleepers. Painted some white on the underside to ensure a good signal but will try a clean engine.
Rob has done a good tutorial on using current sensors for block detection using sensor kits CT2 from MERG at £6.23 each. They give 2 channels. Have assembled one successfully and am considering doing my first UA-cam assembling one as the instructions are aimed at someone with a fair bit of knowledge, which I haven't but managed to get it right after making a small mistake in which components to fit. They work really well for block detection.
I am building a museum grade N scale layout. For N scale, it is easy to ruin the rails with these. So I will construct a small wooden platform or base, mount the sensor right next to the rails a bit above rail head height so it reflects the head end. Now the sensor is upright with the pot for adjustment and no need for led extensions. Cover this assembly with a bush of poly fiber or some other scenic element. Position the sensor such that the leds are not within the line of sight of the spectator ( so that they spoil the display) Just poke a spot in the poly fiber so that the leds can poke through. If your scale is larger like HO , use a 3 sided building object and leave the one side open for the leds. The viewer can see the other 3 sides.
Bob s
Nice
Sometimes that little bit of flex the Copydex has can be good for compensating for temperature movements, but you do need to be careful if you are using flexitrack to make sure it is pretty well bent to shape first.
With the Infrared sensors, I know this is two years later, but even in 2020 you could get ones that had smaller right angle LED/Dioded combination tht allowed for under track installs. If you can find these, as the sensors are also smaller, they work better for in track detectors. This also helps as you need the diode to be close to the LED otherwise it won't get reflected IR light properly. Also, you have to adjust them as sunlight and other infrared sources (such as heating) will also trigger these devices.
Thanks Brendan for the info about IR detectors. I think I am a bit uncertain about if they are helpful for not - my next video I install a load and so will start actually using them. I have discovered that they are affected by7 sunlight which is annoying, however the area I have installed them so far they will all be under the layout. However I have put more occupancy feedbacks in anyway in case I need to abandon them.
I would be really grateful for a link to the IR detectors you mention.
I also have my suspicions about copydex - I am influenced by Chadwick Charlie, but do worry that kinks will develop over time. I generally remove the sleepers and pre-bend each rail now, before putting the sleepers back on the rails.
Very interesting video! will you be combining the op-to sensors within a block of track which is already being detected by the current detection block sensor or in their own right? also I'm not sure if it would work but if the led's where connected to a fibreoptic cable would that work? as you could then get the sensor down to between 1mm and 2mm, just a thought. Loved the way you used 3mm components for the detection, they really make a difference. All the best Tony
Thanks Tony. I have to look in to you fibreoptic idea, there are loads of things that could be useful for in modelling.
@@naivegauge Now you have me wanting to experiment LOL! just ordered some boards to play with, but will use a arduino to see if I can make them trigger a animation 😁😁
Many thanks for your well explained procedure. I'm very interested in theDR4088 Opto unit as I have already used several DR4088LNs for block detection on my layout and am just completing an undertrack - hidden storage yard using them to guide the operation. However, as you found, it woudl be very useful to have an on/off detector at track ends rather than using guesswork. When I look a the rather brief explanation of the devices on Digikeijs website they don't seem to explain the ability to read on/off high/low volt signals from devices so I'm curious to know how you found out the explanation of how they worked?
Also I'm wondering why you chose the S88 version? As you will know there's already a DR4088LN Opto in the series which would be the one I would logically choose as I am using Loconet for feedback. Is there something different that would make the 4088LN Opto version unsuitable? Thanks once again.
I got the s88 version as it is cheaper!
great vidiovery informative regards sam woodward
cheers Sam, thanks for saying so.
Hi !
Thx for the video :) What is the reference of the steam loco (brown/black) ? Is it a dapol or a farish ? I've seen similar models from dapol but always full back or black/green.
It is Graham Farish part number 372-180. The livery is called "Crimson Lake" and was used by LMS (mostly for coaches - locos tended to be black). I think some modern restorations of locos that served LMS in the past have been painted in crimson lake as it looks awesome.
@@naivegauge Thanks for the answer !
I bought a bunch of those same infrared detectors but I replaced the LEDs with 3mm LEDs which fit better between the rails.
Yep, I ended up doing exactly the same.
Do you think the IR detectors add much to the system? I am not sure they bring anything that occupancy detectors can't do.
@@naivegauge IR detectors are point detection. Sometimes you need point detection and sometimes you need block detection. I use both types. For block detection I use BD20s.
Sorry, I may have missed this in the video: your power source: 5 volts but with how many amps please? Also, how do you ground the sensors?
there is a video somewhere on my channel explaining how to convert an ATX power supply into a 12v 5v and 3.3v power supply. That is where the power comes from. in theory it can push something like 20a, but obviously I do not need that, and I have built a 5a circuit breaker into the circuit.
What about aluminium foil? Also, avoid direct overhead lighting, and maybe on an angle as someone else suggested.
Hi Paul. Very interesting. Rather than painting the underside of your loco, I might have tried sticking some aluminium foil to the underside. Infrared vs current detection: would you please explain why use the two methods?
Current detection lets you know that your loco (or other current drawing rolling stock) is somewhere in the block of track, where as the optical detector tells you that the loco (or other rolling stock with a reflective underside) is at a specific location on the track. The current sensing block detection method is good for running trains around different routes etc, but can struggle to stop a train at a specific location (such as the end of a siding, or in a station) To do so it is necessary for the software to have a speed profile for each loco, and then time it from the moment it enters the block. Using this optical method provides the option of configuring software to slow the train on entering a block (via current sensing) and the come to a complete stop at just the right location (via the optical detector.)
I have lots still to learn about using train controller / JMRI / iTrain, but I wanted to give myself options and install the hardware in the track now as I build the layout rather than come back to it later and regret not having taken the opportunity.
(my name is not Paul!)
@@naivegauge Hi Paul. Perfect explanation - thank you.
those infrared leds and phototransistors also exist in 3mm diameter, which would be more suitable for N scale
Indeed. you may have seen in the later parts of this video I swapped the components for 3mm ones.
Iam using this for my Speed detector n scale but sideways acros the track
so when no train, the connection is established all the time, when the train crosses the 2 diodes it disrupt the connection,
much better connection, than relaying on refelctions in the surfaces of the trains
Bon jour, très intéressant, votre détecteur de présence peut donner en même temps un ordre pour faire ouvrir un aiguillage.Merci d'avance
if you're going to the effort of removing the LEDS from the board why not replace them with 3mm so you can sit them side by side in a sleeper gap?
You will see towards the end of the video that I do indeed replace the 5mm components with 3mm components which fit much better in between the sleepers. For n-gauge it is a tight fit, but for OO it would make them even easier to hide.
Buonasera sono franco Bottari ho provato a contattarlo in tutti i modi ma senza risposta ne sarei grato se può darmi informazione .Grazie
Buonasera sono Franco Bottari seguo i sui tutorial purtroppo non parlo la lingua Inglese e mi resta difficile seguirla bisogna che faccia tutto tramite traduttore. Lei sarei grato se mi potrebbe mandare uno schema come colllegare i DR 4088 OPTO ai sensori di presenza VC .Grazie
Puoi trovare un indirizzo email a cui contattarmi sulla pagina "informazioni" del mio canale.
Mandami una e-mail, e cercherò di trovare un modo per darti le informazioni di cui hai bisogno.
@@naivegauge Buonasera gli avevo mandato una mail giorni fa come mi aveva riferito lei ma ad oggi non ho ricevuto risposta. Grazie una buona serata franco bottari