Five Minutes T6 Loss of Control Osh23
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2023
- Five Minutes T6 Loss of Control Osh23
my T6 Spin Video "T6 Texan Dark Corners
• FlyWire T6 Texan Dark ...
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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Owned two and is still with us. Listen to Scott and live.
Well said sir .
The pilot was from New Braunfels Texas and so was the passenger. They knew eachother. The whole thing was such a tragedy for their families.
A well substantiated view from a pro, who has tested it all. Not one second boring, but a true lecture, well done.
Was surprised when the 14 minutes came up 'half way thru'...that's an engaging lecture.
Scott is the best. He is looking out for our safety and trying to teach us to fly by the rules and watch out for our sensibilities
Thanks. A real tragedy. I was a line boy at a flight school owned by a former WWII Army Air Force instructor in the late 1960's. There were a couple AT-6's at the field and he always told the stories of their mean stalls and other characteristics that "schooled" training pilots, but were biting the guys that bought the surplus AT-6s after the war.
Similar experience about ten years later. Only one T6 on the field, lost part of a prop over the crest of the Sierras. Pilot had quite a story!
😔 God bless
As others have pointed out the word this is not a beginner type of aircraft. In military training in the 1940's the T-6 was usually the third type prospective pilots would fly with hundreds of hours flown on less capable aircraft (but still practicing all sorts of maneuvers, stalls & spins flying them). Technology has come a long way in 80 years and the T-6 is a beast compared to modern 'training' counterparts and type has to be put into context. Thanks Scott as always..!
@maruiacancerc 🤨???
Thank you, Scott. When laymen like myself hear "trainer" we tend to think of something forgiving and easy to fly. It is important that both you and Juan Brown pointed out that the T6 was designed as an advanced trainer. Approximating the characteristics of the high-performance aircraft of its era, it isn't the easy flyer some folks have in mind.
I remember reading an article recently that thinking of a military "trainer" as easy to fly was a misunderstanding of their purpose. Trainers served two main purposes, to quickly weed out those that didn't have the abilities to learn to fly at a high level from those that did. Secondly to give those that could the skills needed to progress on to higher performance aircraft. Training a pilot is an expensive endeavor, so they don't want to waste time training up someone that won't get it.
I watch many you tube videos of accident analysis. It’s entertaining for me who loves airplanes, and I learn from them. Juan, Scott and Dan are great, in their analysis. I like their three different viewpoints and personalities. I have been a civilian pilot for 55 years, 40 years as a major-airline pilot , and am still flying my 1947 v tail bonanza, at age 70.5! Here’s my take on why we have so many GA accidents; I did all my learning and ratings before the internet. It was nose in the books, flight training, then simulators at the airline. I learned from great pilots and check airman. I took the good pilots and bad pilots characteristics, that I flew with and formulated the correct way to be and fly. It served me well; I never had any incidents or accidents in 28,000 hours🤞🙏🏻. My point is, I see many young pilots and old pilots, who have limited experience, get into these accidents. Perhaps they don’t watch all the accident analysis, as I do, and miss salient points. They are only as good as their training has been. Some instructors themselves, are low time and experience. How much wisdom can they teach? Relatively low time GA pilots need to get great training. And they need to recognize how to fly within their level of experience. I would like to see seminars developed, that teach CRM, decision making skills, recurrent training, upset training, spin training, weather analysis, get-home-itis mindset, and on and on. So many pilots are not prepared for the many things that can bite you, in flying airplanes. Then there are people with more dollars, than sense/cents. They buy a twin or a jet, and kill themselves and their trusting family/passengers. Know what to do, when not to do something, and respect physics and gravity! I’ll step down from my soapbox🤪
Great comment David, thanks! Good soapbox to stand on!
@@FlyWirescottperdue I’m fully retired. Maybe I should develop what I espouse!? I could become a UA-cam sensation, like you!😉
Well put sir - And thanks ! You very well may have flown me somewhere at some point !
@@bobwilson758 Ozark, TWA and American, repeatedly to many places in the US, Europe, Middle East, Caribbean and all over South America (and Hawaii and Alaska)😉
If you take up YT as a creator, please consider making your speaking style like your typing which is good, and use good graphics. Many can offer sound advice, but get lost in the presentation. I watch almost all the ones you do, love Scott, Juan, and have a soft spot for Dan. I will say this, the presentation is awesome with Mentour Pilot, in no small part to the fact he has an editing team. They don't teach that in any flight school🛩
Many who trained on the T-6 observed that it was harder to fly than the fighters that came later..
Never flew a 6 but enough bt 13 time to know u don't do low slow turns. Go left, go inverted.
A very sad accident, indeed. Thank you, Scott, for this presentation. Two weeks ago, I had a flight in the back seat of a T-6 with an experienced instructor. During the briefing, he made it clear that we would not do low energy maneuvers. This machine demands respect. It's underpowered, it has inertia, and it has a ton of drag. But when you are on the right side, it's really fun to fly.
Thanks, Scott. My Grandfather, who had multiple type ratings and flew during WWII loved the T6 but also used to tell me it “suffered no fools.” He’d tell me it could turn on you in heartbeat if you upset “her,” and punish you if you got ‘er low and slow. I guess he was right, as, one some level, it appears that’s what happened here. RIP to the young lady aviator and the passenger and hopefully this will serve as a cautionary tale to have more time practicing saves than assuming when, not if, WHEN, shit goes south, you’re equipped to handle the upset or emergency.
@maruiacancerc zero-carb can stop the progression of cancer and aid in recovery after chemo.
Your absolutely correct my dad told me about the same about all the military trainers.
Scott did an awesome job in his spin video- hell, I fully understood all of it, so anyone can. Seems to me we could use a lot more people talking about, and training for, "Spin Prevention", but we just don't see much on it, save here. Sounds like a life-saver to me, much like AQP...
If you get slow, maneuvering and do not have that ball centered, it snaps inverted. Unless you've trained for it, once inverted, they generally panic, suck the stick back deepening the stall and down you go! Also, ALL SNJ/T-6's are placarded: Intentional Spins Prohibited. So sad to have to report. Thank you for all your hard work and educating others. Great report! Thank you Scott!
What is not CRYSTAL clear here, but suggested by you, is why she got into a stall in the first place. Was it the exit from a roll? Spatial disorientation out on the water? I realize it goes hand in hand with proficient, INSTANT spin recovery in these T6s.. Great video and your strident tone certainly should instill some sober reflection by T6 flyers who do not have proficiency in stall prevention, stall recovery, and spin recovery, and should have the good sense in a T6 to NEVER EVER try fancy stuff below 10,000'. Thanks.
Yes indeed - ten thousand ft. Min. To start anything - period . It would be much better to go on
Oxygen and higher altitude , really . I know …. Here it comes O well. I feel bad. Damn - Truth.
i have flown the T6 for five years giving aerobatic, sim dog fights and more relaxed instructional rides. This translates to 3000 flight hours, 4000 plus flights........What you are saying is spot on, beautiful flying aircraft that requires proper energy management. At first I use to do snap rolls (came from flying competition in a Pitts), that was till one day I took a ride with the rear seat turned around. When my friend did the snap, the flex in the tail cured me of snap rolls.
All T6s I have flown would stall by dropping the right wing (unless totally uncoordinated). During our sim dog fights, if in a left turn, the accel stall would roll the airplane good 90 deg, so left turn became right turn like right now. The fun one was right/right dog fight, pull too much and yes you are inverted, but all you have to do is relax the back pressure, continue the roll and you are right side up with no drama. I use to love that maneuver, this was my version of a soft snap roll. This maneuver was mostly performed by my non pilot pax/students, even with my non aggressive or hands on coaching most would not end up in a spin. Few did, but we always had plenty of altitude. The T6, in my opinion will not bite instantly, the pilot has "time" to unload the wing and continue flying in whatever altitude the aircraft ends up in. In my opinion, the aircraft has to be "forced" into a spin, obviously not C152 "force" but still "forced". Yes I am defending the T6.
I have also done some T6 check outs, but mostly flew with T6 owners that were "afraid" of the airplane. These T6 pilots really had very limited or almost non existing understanding and prior flight training at the edges or beyond of the "envelope". With most i was able to share my joy and comfort of flying the T6. There were few that should have not be flying this bird.......but try to tell that to this type of a guy.
The T6 is an absolute joy to fly, it's a big Buick of the sky with Corvette handling. Proper training, proper level of skill is required, but same can be said for a C152. Too many people blame the aircraft, we have to be honest in aviation, if we want to fly safe.
Great comment, thanks. And I couldn’t agree more. I love the T6.
Couldn't agree more . Been there done that.
Well said.
Best breakdown of this sad event. I always enjoy Scott's professionalism and to can see how this bothered him having owned and flown T6. I had a chance for a front seat ride in one and it was placarded NO SPINS. Very sorry for the family's involved.
Thanks Scott- certainly a tragedy which was 99.9% likely totally preventable. Very sad 😞
Nice video Scott. I'm happy to see that you included a link to your excellent spin video. General comment not aimed at this accident or the accident pilot: They don't teach flying like they used to. The new breed coming from the Pilot Puppy Farms just don't have the stick and rudder skills or the depth of experience, or even the general education to fly anything other than the 172's they learn in. Their instructors only learned to fly the previous year. OK, they do that in the military, too. But their flight training is intense, immersive and extensive. You get comfortable on the edge of the stall buffet because that's where you fly tactical jets. For civilians that means aerobatics and spin training. WWII produced the best stick and rudder pilots ever. An aspiring warbird pilot better have the skills they taught back then, but none of that is required to get all your ratings. You have to seek it out on your own, as in the day after you get your Private license (better yet, learn in a Cub), so that you can actually start learning how to fly the right way. Taildraggers and aerobatics. Learn to fly gliders also. You'll learn energy management, and all without an engine. Like most, this accident just didn't need to happen. And it saddens me.
BC
26,000+ hrs
Aerobatics instructor, USAF IP, Airline Senior Captain, TV/Movie, Competition Sailplanes, CAF.
I flew back seat once in the T6 and just the physical effort in sharp manourvres I thought seemed considerable. I cannot imagine a female in a full vertical spin having to stomp the pedals and stick with the G's. Even in MSFS that snap departure is a real mental handful ..It's so clear you need many, many hrs in the real thing to get it right.
Flew an SNJ about 15 +/- years ago with an instructor with Gauntlet out of ARR. We were doing various maneuvers including barrel rolls and loops. On one of the loops, when we were on the backside and pointing nearly straight down, the airplane snapped hard to the right…90 degrees. Instantly. I thought something broke.
Anyway, after recovering from the loop I asked what the heck that was (didn’t use the word heck, by the way). He told me I pulled too hard and stalled the airplane. So yes…any airspeed, any attitude is correct and a T6 will snap hard to the right in a stall. Sure was an eye opener for me.
Otherwise, the airplane was a sweetheart to fly…and land. I loved every minute of it.
You had power ON! I think she did too. And I think nobody is addressing the difference between idle and power on spin entry. Heck of a difference!
@@scottboelke4391 I probably had some power on…I don’t recall. You are right on regarding the difference between power on and power off!
Excellent short-course on the airplane's spin characteristics. I've always been perplexed by the number of people who seem to be able to afford high-performance machines (cars, planes, boats, etc) but then don't have the time/money/sense to pay somebody to teach them how to operate those machines safely.
Scott as always appreciate your analysis, fair and focused on what we can all learn from it so the tragedies aren't completely in vain. I know this one's got a lot of attention both because it happened at Oshkosh and she was a very popular up and coming pilot. I have a number of friends that knew her personally. Short of the NTSB finding some control failure or something, I have to imagine you're analysis is dead on. 300 hours and less than a year into my private pilot life but I've got spin/upset training on my priority list right after I complete IFR.
Alyssa, glad to hear you have your priorities lined up!
You're already really late in doing your spin training. The IFR can wait a little longer.
Thank you for the great description of the incident Scott, from the perspective of a former T6 owner
Thank you for this Mr. Purdue. Your experience is amazing and wonderful you share with us. So sad about that young lady Pilot
Nice to see the SAAF Harvard in the one pic.
This was our ab initio trainer in the SAAF in the 70's and 80's out of an airfield by the name of Dunnottar (near Johannesburg). Testament to the old SAAF Harvard Instructors that they had very few accidents / incidents.
check out the Canadian Harvard Aircraft Association. They are a flying museum dedicated to preserving the memory of the Harvards we used in the British Empire Flight Training Plan across Canada durin WW2. We built about 3500 of them for that plan.
You probably flew 7246… it was there.
Flew her on 3 occasions, my logbook reveals 2 spins (to the left) and I'm still here to talk about them ... :)
I saw an old training manual for the T6, regarding spins. I believe it said to begin your stall/spin at 10,000’ AGL. 3,800’ to do a roll, which could turn into a stall then a spin at as much too low. Such a preventable loss😞. Just a normal flight, would have been enough of a ride, for the passenger to appreciate the T6.
Disclaimer: non-pilot here. I got a flight in an SNJ for a Christmas present a number of years ago, and the young lady in the back seat who was conducting the ride asked at some point if I’d like to try “going upside down” for a while. She did several ærobatic maneuvers, and we always began them between 4 and 5 thousand feet.
🛫📖🛬
Scott,
I was very impressed with your comment about "DMMS". YOU ARE VERY CORRECT.
It's your job and duty to know every little nuance about your aircraft,
Especially if you're going to be chauffeuring around other people because they think they're okay with you.
In our last chat I was on a rant about the need for harnesses.
We had that chat about a year and a half ago I think but finally I'm hearin more people finally reaching maturation on this terribly important asset.
I've seen more than one instrument panel with a face imprint in it and it's something that can almost be prevented with a good harness system.
Scott you do a great service for the flying community.
Your clear and thoughtful approach is certainly bound to be reaching a lot of the flying community.
The T-6 will always be hangered in a sweet spot of my heart, those were really the good days.
GOD Bless
📖🛐✈️
Thanks Chuck! I love my shoulder harness!
Scott, I really enjoy your channel. I've been a pilot for 44 years now and still am learning. I've had the blessing and good fortune to fly a couple warbirds over the years. I grew up in an aviation family. When I started learning to fly (age 9) I was taught by an old, grumpy/frumpy "Stick and Rudder Man". Spins and aerobatics were just part of the teaching curriculum. Why do I mention all this? Having flown the AT-6, it takes some stick and rudder skills and total RESPECT of the limitations of the aircraft. Don't know about you, but I'm sick to death of hearing about all the stall/spin accidents we seem to see almost on a daily basis now. Flying these "Round Engine" birds is NOT microsoft flight simulator. There is no reset button, folks. I STRONGLY have always felt that removing stall/spin demonstration and recovery techniques from the requirements to get a license was a huge mistake and the body count proves it. In this particular tragedy, it's so sad to see a young life taken out like this. Hopefully, it will wake some folks up, to go out and get spin training. Even better, basic aerobatics. I'm glad I did - otherwise I would have been pushing up daisies a long time ago.
As a student pilot, I refused to solo until I had proper spin training, with real, unexpected spins. Seeing nothing but the Atlantic Ocean filling the windscreen is absolutely terrifying the first time. It gets less scary with each go. Its nothing like the docile slight droop of the nose in a 172 in the practice stalls. It was also enough to make me very cautious and watching for the signs leading up to a stall so that I hopefully will never end up in one.
That day I also learned that 10 hours bottle-to-throttle may be fine for straight and level flying but the spins made me make 16 hours my personal minimum. I was very worried that I was going to puke all over this guy's beautiful Citabria.
Hi Scott, and thank you for this video.
Your knowledge of the T6 is invaluable.
I taught for many years on the Pa38 Tomahawk, which "acquired" a similar reputation, albeit without the mass and inertia.
First the UK CAA removed spinning from the PPL syllabus, then restricted the available Pa38 airframes permitted to spin with an airworthiness directive requiring a full four point harness due to the loss of an aircraft in a spinning accident.
It was, and is, a remarkable trainer, similar to the T6 in philosophical terms, but we were expected to treat it like a Cessna 150 within the syllabus.
I was never comfortable with this, and briefed and included a spin detail at the end of the usual stall spin avoidance and awareness training.
Some students went further and demonstrated a spin and recovery for their own interest in a controlled, pre briefed environment.
Paradoxically, the only time that I had a spinning incident in a Pa38 was checking out a far more experienced instructor who had no time on type.
Some aircraft have characteristics that it is vital to recognise, appreciate, and build into ones baseline knowledge, and the T6 certainly appears to be one of these.
Now we've lost 3 T6's in two months, for stupid reasons. Blue skies to those 3 pilots.
Wise words all should listen to: She encountered a situation that she was unprepared for it
This one was definitely a heartbreaker...well done and very respectful. I agree, Sir. Rigorous training, devotion to craft, respect for the aircraft, and a constant evaluation of your skill set. Do what you can and then celebrate your time in aviation. No one knows how long they have....
You always do such a great job explaining what you need to without adding extra unnecessary drama. As always thanks for sharing these with us Scott. Although most of us will never fly a T6 I think there's still many takeaways from this.
Great explanation for a very sad event, unfortunately. Thank you, Scott.. Great explanation for a very sad event, unfortunately. Thank you, Scott..
Scott..”thanks”. Thanks for being ONE of the 2 “BEST” Voices of Reason regarding these unfortunate ACCIDENT/INCIDENT-Reviews. Between you and Juan Browne..I’ll admit my ‘bias’ looks forward to ALL reviews published.
A cogent and respectful explanation of this unfortunate loss. Thanks Scott! Semper Fi.
In Canada, we are thoroughly tough spin recovery. otherwise, you will never solo .
Bang on, Scott. When I was an active glider instructor in a club operation, we trained to proficiency rather than FAA minimums.
Our club had chutes for every seat in a club sailplane - dual and solo. We trained folks on exiting the a/c & wore chutes on every flight. Students didn't solo until they had spun & recovered multiple times.
I also used our grass crosswind rwy to simulate off-field landngs, creating the tension of a real off-field by telling the student to land on the x-wind rwy only as they crossed the IP for a normal landing (having cleared airspace ahead of time). The goal was for the student would to avoid experiencing their initial off-field landing solo. Afterwards we debriefed extensively to ensure every student got the most they could out of the practice.
We also aero-towed students nearing solo to a privately owned airfield about 10 miles away & head them shoot an approach to a field they had never seen (no 'turn base at such-and-such landmark' stuff). Having enough towplanes & pilots, we dedicated a towplane to these flights so once there, we could fly 2-4 patterns at the new-to-solo candidate before heading back to home field. They received instruction in guaging distance from the rwy on downwind, evaluating angles, continuing to fly the a/c under unfamiliar circumstances, evaluating altitude, descent rate & a/c speed throughout the pattern and hitting a defined touchdown point - not halfway down the runway.
I carried TWO instrument covers and as traing progressed would cover the student's ASI, then Altimeter and finally both (separate flights) while having them land near as possible to a defined point on the rwy. The rear cockpit had duplicates - students weren't getting seat-of-the pants instrucing during these flights.
We also phase-checked solo candidates with another instructor & debriefed CFI to CFI. It wasn't uncommon for an instructor to work on specifics during additional dual based on the phase check, especially for less-experienced CFI's.
This was a GLIDER operation. However, one will be just as dead if they spin in a sailplane as a T-6, though it's clear which is more demanding of the PIC.
I share your pained heart. Two souls lost their lives in what should have been a fun flight and IT DIDN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN.
Thank you more than words can say for your straightforward analysis based on both experience and careful thought.
That sounds like an excellent training program!
Such a great commentary and breakdown on what happened, thank you!!
Gunny, solid debrief of this mishap. I went through Stallion 51 for my T-6 checkout and I was given excellent training with regard to departing the aircraft and spin prevention. My heart goes out to the families of these two involved in the accident. Blue skies and tailwinds...
For training purposes we used to set a minimum of 6000' AGL for spin training in T-6 back in the 90s and begin the recovery after the 3rd turn. I do miss those days!!
Hullo Mr. Purdue and thank you for your deeply considered and carefully described version of what may have happened here in this tragic loss of a beautiful old warbird, pilot and passenger. My profile is and may appear misleading but I do not hesitate to identify myself as Clive Lake, a Rhodesian born, England, Australia and New Zealand educated individual who volunteered to join the SAAF (South African Air Force). The North American Harvard, T-6, Spam-Can, Spammy or any other moniker we attached to this magnificent "pilot maker" beast of an aeroplane is and will remain a very proud and outstanding aspect of the initial training that I underwent back in the early 80's. We were taught how to stall, spin, recover, fly and manoeuvre the Spammy before even taken anywhere near the circuit. Hence I only solo'd at 22 odd hours (on 18/11/81), (1 of the 1st on my pupe's course (pupe = "pupil pilot's course")) You show a deep appreciation for and of the Harvard and I saw a SAAF version of one in this video. I have a total of 132 hours on this type but went on to fly many other taildragger aeries thereafter. Including the DC-3/C-47. All I want to say is that it was indeed a privilege to learn to fly on such an amazing airplane, to this day I recall my spin recovery procedures (we did them under a canopy during IF training on a turn and slip indicator with the DI and AI caged) and sadly agree with you that spin recovery is not taught today. I totally agree with the concept of stall/spin avoidance, but knowing what to do when the paw-paw hits the fan is so much better. I truly hope our new aviators will continue to learn and become better flyers. Signed ... a retired military, charter, bush, corporate, and airline 40 year + veteran.
We’ll said, Clive.
Thanks for sharing - good video. I couldn't help but to get the impression that somehow this gal got in over her head in her ability to manage such a powerful aircraft. It seems like maybe she bit off a little more than she could chew, or maybe too much too fast. Really sad if she hadn't had good training in how to manage a spin in the T-6. Imo spin training should be restored when learning the basics. Perhaps folks, out of ignorance, were a bit cavalier that she could handle it. You're right that comprehensive training is paramount. You gave some good advice. Don't let any turkeys get you down.
Sorry for this loss. Important lessons. RIP.
The moral of the story here is to respect the T-6.. she's a wonderful girl to dance with, but if you're not up to her level of performance, you'll stumble and fall. Hopefully, this accident will focus the spotlight not just on her nasty stall/spin habits, but also on the solution, which at it's core is training that leads to mastery of her bad behavior.. ergo, it should make T-6 pilots aware that there are pilots out there who have mastered these skills and who make a living training T-6 pilots/owners to learn from them to do likewise. Prevention is always better than cure, but when you get to the phase where cure becomes the name of the game, you'd better know what you're doing or you'll become another statistic. Condolences to the family and loved ones of the two T-6 occupants killed in this accident. The only positive aspects that can emerge from this tragedy are greater awareness, and resultant increase in the number of pilots going for professional stall/spin mastery training in the T-6.
@@eksemosLol - similar to Ferraris. You have to know what you're dealing with 🙂
She was a good girl, loved her Momma. Loved Jesus and airplanes too. Actually maybe had her head in the clouds a tiny bit too much? I shouldn't say anything though, I'm a jerk. I just saw her social media profile and was like ughhhh you seem a bit insufferable. I'm sure she was great though, seriously. I'm just a dick.
Thanks for the insight, Scott.
Hi Scott, first time here on your site.... You provide an excellent, measured, calm & factual examination of the facts involved in this tragic accident. Well done Scott ! FMR Intelligence Officer
Having done spins in a T-6, I can honestly say the FAA has the wrong end of the stick. It's hard to recover? No practicing them, then. Makes perfect sense.
Great explanation for a very sad event, unfortunately. Thank you, Scott.
Scott,
Good job on the video. I really have alot of respect for the way you started the video by considering the family's of the pilot and passenger involved in this accident. My heart goes out to them, as I know yours does too.
Aviation and the feeling of flight is an incredible experience, but it's also a dangerous endeavor. Anyone who is choosing to beat up this young pilot in the comments is missing the entire point of the video. Again, my heart and prayers go out to the family's affected by this tragedy.
As always, thanks for your spot on analysis of this incident.
Todd
Thanks, Scott. Appreciate the honesty. Everything goes back to the pilot, arrogance and attitude.
this is a great video, I liked your approach and your experienced T6 pilot analysis. Thanks for another great video Scott.
Thanks. Just be yourself and do what interests you. And remember Audio is the hardest thing about video.
A T6 does have a violent stall,, very little warning of a stall. One time the stick got yanked out of my hand during a stall, pretty scary and woke me up to respect the airplane, keep your speed and keep the ball centered.
Thanks Scott. A difficult loss for the aviation community. Breaks my heart too. Great information.
nope, just yet another statistic and cautionary tale.
Thanks Scott, I know these are hard to do, but I appreciate the important insights you give.
Thanks Scott for caring so much!
The T-6 is considered an advanced trainer. The next step logically would be a Mustang , Hellcat, Thunderbolt, Warhawk or Corsair. Condolences to the family.
Excellent video Scott, I'm going to watch your T6 video next.
Scott, thank you for giving us a clear, concise review of this sad incident. You make it very clear what you suspect was the cause of this situation. The FAA has, as usual made yet another short sighted ruling with regard to undertaking spin training/spin recovery training because they have banned undertaking any intentional spins beyond 1-1.5 spins in T6s. If you can't fly T6s in spins, how on earth can you learn how to recover from entering spins; either deliberate or accidental? People learning to fly T6s MUST learn how to recover from spins. The FAA refuse to allow the T6 to perform spins, so how on earth can pilots learn how to recover from a spin? And as you stsre Scott, those observers who stated that you can recover from a spin at 3,000ft really is B.S!!!
Outstanding. You're The Best, Scott. Thank you, for all you give aviation. We might live a bit longer for your efforts. IF, we listen.
Thanks, Mutt!
Thank you Scott.
Great job
I learned to fly in the 80s. My instructors were old school. One, Bob McConnell, had me fly in slow flight for what seemed like forever. He also had me doing stalls every which way but loose. He basically drilled into me using rudder only for directional, and sometimes roll, control when hanging on the edge like that. I don't think I really appreciated that until my first solo Cub flight many years later when I tried turning without rudder and all the airplane did was mush into a slip illustrating how to aggravate a stall. I think more rudder skills need to be developed in initial training.
Agreed!
Thank you Scott for sharing this stall/spin information. I remember a few years ago a Coast Guard Aviator and a Navy Aviator both female pilots and I believe both in T6's crashed but I never saw much about the circumstances.
If a plane has characteristics that are even slightly exaggerated, any new pilot to that plane should get to see them and then successfully fly out of them. There are a jillion pilots out there who somehow manage to jump OVER some hoops as opposed to through them. I've been lucky enough to survive over 34 years of flying - in a whole lot of different, relatively high-performance airplanes. But if I were offered the chance to fly a T-6 I would not solo one without first experiencing and getting out of the type of tight spin covered here. I don't assume for a moment that I would know how to recognize or recover from this maneuver without a LOT more altitude than this pilot had in her hip pocket. This is very sad. A T6 is a pretty cool machine and probably incredibly expensive to fly (per hour). But the cost to get fully checked out? Worth every penny.
Great stuff! I find it difficult to believe anyone flying this machine should not be proficient with its stall characteristics. This airplane dropped like a chunk of lead! Common sense sense is to understand everything concerning airplane characteristics. This pilot really blew it.
I flew in an AT-6 last October at the Palm Springs Air Museum in California. My impression was that its not an airplane that a inexperienced low time pilot should be flying alone (having a non-pilot passenger in the back seat is flying alone). During the war, I would guess that students always flew the AT-6 with an instructor on board so they weren't flying alone. The pilot I had was a retired Delta 747 Captain and my impression was that even though he was alone he definitely knew what he was doing.
We are well familiar with the Harvard as the T6 is known here as our primary trainer for many years from 1940 right up to 1995 and those famous dayglo orange on natural metal birds still frequent our skies in private hands. One of the first “your airplane” experiences I had was in 7643 a beautiful but deadly machine if not flown right. I got a bit slow in an uncoordinated climbing turn (rudder work was hard in that machine) and had control unceremoniously taken away from me. It all went wrong very fast. Thank God for the high time guy who was there to catch me.
We are pushing people through flight training that have no business flying these planes. Happening in the military too. People will keep having these fatal accidents the longer we keep pretending that identity is more important than talent
Here in Canada the RCAF did training flights with students out over Lake Erie in the Harvard's. This was because if they couldn't recover from spin training they would hit the lake and not people. The Harvard's were nicknamed widow makers.
Thank you for this informative video. So sad. R.I.P.
When an AT6 stalls and spins, it takes 2 and 1/2 rotations before it will start flying again.
Let go of the stick, kick full opposite rudder and hold.
I have done it and its scary.
All respect to the people who lost a friend or loved one on that day.
Valuable info. Thanks, Scott!!
And thanks @SafetyThirdRC!!
Thank you.
Thanks Scott! I've never flown, or flown in a T6. To be honest they scare the hell out of me. That design is 1935! I know some folks really like them. When I looked for more info, they built 15,495 of them and there are still 500+ flying today. That's impressive. But everyone I've ever talked to that has flown them says they are a hand full. I just can't imagine a stall/spin in a 5,000 lb 1935 airplane. It's looking like a bad year for Osh. I've been away and just catching up on news. I was looking for fun things and new technology, like the 300hp-400hp turbine from Australia, not 2 fatals. 8( Thanks for the insight.. -gary
They are a "handful" if not flown correctly. Aerodynamics have not changed since 1935 either. Truth be known, this aircraft more than likely saved more WWII pilots later on during the war, because of how well of a advanced trainer they were/are. The airplane was designed to BITE if not handled correctly. They are/were a excellent airplane and advanced trainer. The T-6 helped to win the war, period!!
Exactly right. It was a trainer for the fighters to come.
8 FATALS this year at Oskosh ??
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 8( is an emoticon.
Scott,
Thank you for taking time and put together this video. I own and operate (5 years) CCAF T-6 Harvard in “far away” Poland and - as you rightly observe per T-6 pilots - I DON’T do fully developed spins at all on T-6. I own and operate also DH82 Tiger Moth and DHC Chipmunk and there I go into full developed spins relatively often. One need 10000 feet on T-6 to do the experiment - as proposed by well known T-6 manual. Hardly any place (airspace) to be able to do it over Europe those days. Plus ex-UK CAA plate says “spins prohibited” is still there in the cockpit. What to do then - matter of attitude - isn’t it?
Departure / departure prevention on T-6 - yes, sure.
Slowly and on limited basics, with good links to UK based experience, I do introduce new people to those warbirds. The case is heartbreaking, very sad, can’t stress how I wish I could support the families.
Makes me think over the (my) ops… as we should often - right?
This is why I was scared to death of entering a spin in my RV-6. Fully recoverable but would crank up and Van noted that it would scare most recreational pilots. Always made sure to not let myself get in that situation. She just entered an attitude she probably had not seen in the T6. And after watching the T6 spin video , looks like she would had to have been on her toes. My Uncle was killed in texas in 1944 in a T6. He was a navy flight instructor , and very well may have got himself into the same situation.
Thanks for the videos you put out, I really appreciate the type of breakdowns you do, all in the interest of safety and the prevention of similar incidents, I think you do great at not vilifying the Pilots unlike other channels, I mean seriously what positive safety or future prevention can dogging the Pilot possible bring to the table. You stick to the facts as best as the evidence presents, I love your ideology of prevention of bad situations and just being aware enough all the time to stop them before they happen instead of having to recover after the fact. Sorry not sure I put that into words right. Keep them coming and thank you. And thanks for your previous Service
You did fine Brad!
Thanks for the explanation. I can tell it was not easy.
I have personal knowledge of this incident. You did well.
Scott, in my humble opinion this pilot should never have been typed for solo operation in the T-6. She had low time hours and not knowing the spin recovery for the airplane she was flying is negligent in my opinion. I wish people would start respecting the airplanes they fly and realize the immense responsibility you have when you learn to fly one of these heavy warbirds.
Unfortunately, if I’m not mistaken the T-6 is light enough that you don’t need a type rating. Private pilot, a complex, and high performance endorsement will get you there.
You have to do some flights with an instructor to get checked out for insurance but that isn’t mandatory per the FAA. If you have the endorsements and your PPL you can buy one and fly it home.
unfortunately not quite humble enough, imo
@@neilmurgatroyd3197 What do you mean?
Checked out or endorsement is the correct verbiage, not typed, as in type rating. When non pilots comment, they don’t use the correct wording, oftentimes.
If you were humble enough, you wouldn't have spoken. People died, that wasn't their aim, learn from that, don't assign blame. It's not helpful, it tends to obscure learning.
I hope you appreciate that I responded for your benefit. I'm out.
I did spin training in a skybolt , mangalore AUS . At the time it was a deliberate spin, which was able to be recovered relatively easily.
I can imagine a much heavier aircraft would be something entirely different.
The T6 takes no prisoners….lovely, old and if you don’t learn EVERY aspect of it it will turn on you in an instant. RIP
Prayers to the Families, RIP! 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Great video Scott terrible tragedy but avoidable with the proper training. Several great T6 schools Stallion 51 and Warebird Adventures. I'm a graduate of the Sallion 51 T6 school and go back every year for T6 and P51 recuurent worth every penny.
wonderful analysis and very insightful....thanks! much better than the other crap regarding this incident on the internet. Sad indeed...
Scott , there's an ever increasing number of people who can't deal with reality.
It's a real problem for people our age so much of this is self-evident.
Well said I can't add to that. It's all about training. General rules generally apply to general aircraft but there are birds out there that have to be treated differently and with great respect. Been there done that got the T-shirt and walked away.
There are few voices in the aviation community that have a better understanding of this plane and how it handles than you. Thanks for your analysis.
Thank you Sr.
The moral of the story here is to respect the T-6.. she's a wonderful girl to dance with, but if you're not up to her level of performance, you'll stumble and fall. Hopefully, this accident will focus the spotlight not just on her nasty stall/spin habits, but also on the solution, which at it's core is training that leads to mastery of her bad behavior.. ergo, it should make T-6 pilots aware that there are pilots out there who have mastered these skills and are professionals at training T-6 pilots/owners to learn from them to master their T-6 stall/spin skills. Prevention is always better than cure, but when you get to the phase where cure becomes the name of the game, you'd better know what you're doing or you'll become another statistic. Condolences to the family and loved ones of the two T-6 occupants killed in this accident. The only positive aspects that can emerge from this tragedy are greater awareness, and resultant increase in the number of pilots going for professional stall/spin mastery training in the T-6.
I have heard MANY different stories on the Attitude changes. Still, after looking at different on site live flight tracker it's hard to speculate until the NTSS investigates. More over I have to say I totally agree with you ( you being a former T-6, Harvard pilot) which I hopefully will be certified on next year ( totally different flying experience in a Harvard then I was expecting) even have 40 AC certs under my belt but I have to go by you word. Thanks for you knowledge, your words and love the vid. I will be taking this to heart while I go through my cert on craft.
Never flown a T-6 but would love the opportunity. As a former tweet IP , it sounds like the same abrupt entry as a “low, light , left “..: low pitch, light weight to the left…(we used to enter spins from various pitch attitudes and weights… including high or low altitude..which made a difference)…The first pitch would briefly roll inverted… So “idle , neutral, aft…” always worked if patient. So you are right. I think a fully developed spin in something that big , old and unique spin characteristics requires a lot of altitude to recover. 10k sounds good to me….But you know this… Just adding to the fodder …I’m not judging…Very sorry this even happened!…
I loved spinning the T37!
I want to fly with you Scott, or at least have a hangar conversation. Nothing bad can come of learning more about this unforgiving hobby.
i watched the spin video. That is pretty scary how quickly the spin develops!!!! i’ve flown in the back seat of T6 aircraft quite a few times and rarely have these flights ever exceeded 2000 feet. this validates your point on training yourself to recognize a pending spin situation before it happens. In this accident situation I’m sure being out over a lake at relatively low altitude with no real good horizon/ground visibility further complicated recovery efforts. so sad when preventable accidents happen!!!!! terrible loss for the warbird community, seems to happen a lot lately.
My heartfelt condolences for the families 😢💔😢
Texas Nana 🤠
Psalm 91
Spins were the toughest and scariest part of my flight training. To fly and fly well pilots must know there machine inside and out.
I was shocked when I recently found out. Pilot training these days don’t include spin training and that many instructors have never even experienced spins!, Thank god I learned years ago and had spun before my 1st solo
I got my pilots license, then did tailwheel (in an aerobatic airplane). then I asked my CFI to learn spins. He asked, "Why?", and I just told him because I wanted to. So we did a training session of spins. Later did them again for my own CFI.
just because something isn't "required", doesn't mean you Can't do it. People need to stop being helpless, and start taking responsibility into their own hands.
You had a good instructor.
Spin training is required to obtain a CFI!
Thanks for your videos. Shake dem haters off. Your stuff saves lives. Which is what it's all about.
Truly a very sad event for this young lady and her passenger.
To me this has the equivalent to getting a drivers licence in a Datsun pickup truck in a prairie town, then given the keys to a fully loaded 18 wheeler and B-train and allowed to take it down a snow covered mountain pass with hairpin corners and no run-away lanes.
Almost seems like she may have been fast tracked, received her war bird certificate, a slap on the back, an oversized embroidered patch and the keys to an aircraft that she had very little time on.
Almost seems like negligence on behalf of the group that runs this particular program and the certification process that got her to where I’m sure she just did not have the knowledge or experience necessary to safely operate😢
I am not a pilot but a cyclist, and it all sounds like avoiding the equivalent of a tram-line (such as going "off-piste" off and against the edge of a concrete path-way; Trying get back on track without the correct angle of attack for the front wheel usually ends painfully). Once that front wheel is in the groove there ain't no-way-baby. ps Watch out for hoses snaking along the intended path too!
I remember seeing Bobby Younkin snap a T-6 on takeoff...
Thank you sir. Very well thought out. It's a shame the GA world has lost respect for warbirds.
I watched Dan and Juan Browns video on this. I've been waiting for your review. You and those two are my top 3 and the only aviation channels I like and trust.
Saw a comment from another pilot that was crossing the lake about the same time that said the smoke and haze, looking east was bad enough that he couldn’t see the opposite shore line at 2500 feet and was worse the higher he climbed. That would also have been somewhat into the sun.
I’ve heard the passenger was into photography so I would assume the NTSB will exhaust all efforts to recover any recording devices, not only for photos but evidence such as what occurred with loose iPad in the Chinook recently.
I flew a local sortie on Monday about the same time. Above 2500’ it was IMC due to the smoke.