for me, I interpreted Cal developing attachments and "time to leave the order behind" as a recognition that the Jedi Order in the prequels were flawed. a true jedi is about serving the force to keep balance and not necessarily about all these rules. especially when it was attachment in RotJ that brought back Anakin, but supressing his attachment turned him to the dark side. PS, Zee from the "golden age of the jedi" also called Cal a real Jedi too
Except keeping balance is what the jedi do. The Sith are a corruption of the force they try to bend the force to their will on the galaxy. Also the Jedi are morally grey, they are not noble crusaders going forth and destroying evil they are peace keepers who always try to negotiate first. Case and point episode 1, the morally good thing to do would have been to send all the jedi to curbstomp the trade federation who are engaging in cartoonishly evil behavior. They don't so that they send two jedi to try and serve aa mediators and resolve the conflict without violence on either side because war sucks.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again; I believe that Star Wars fundamentally misunderstands human nature. There is a way to draw on the darker parts of yourself without relinquishing yourself to it, and trying to reject those darker parts of yourself is an impossible task that only makes things worse. Hate, anger, fear can be transformed into confidence, determination & caution. It can give you the wisdom and strength to find balance within yourself if you are guided properly. The Jedi order can be, and is wrong about many things.
i know i'm a year late to this but look at windu, he basically is that you say, he not only embraced his darks side, he also used it to be a better and stronger jedi, that's why his lightssaber is purple too that being said, i hope cal is the next canon character to have a purple lightsaber, i feel like it really suits him, especially after jedi survivor
@garlic4742 Qui-Gon was one of the most Jedi Jedi to ever have Jedi'd. The reason he chose not to serve on the council was because he wanted to better serve the common people and follow the true path of the Force. People just use "gray Jedi" to pretend there are Jedi who use the dark side willingly and frequently, when doing so would mean they aren't actually Jedi. Gray Jedi don't exist. You can't be a Jedi and use the dark side without turning to it completely
I think the term "Grey Jedi" is a misnomer even when talking about the Jolee Bindo sort. Mostly because something we've seen consistently is that the dogmatic Jedi Order where they have things like rules against "attachment" and relationships are the versions that are about to be destroyed or fall. There are also eras where the Jedi allow and even encourage relationships both romantic and familial and their more concerned with morality than dogmatism.
Jolee Bindo is 'grey' in that he specifically disowns a lot of the tradition of the Jedi of his own time, but not 'grey' in that he's clearly dedicated to the light
Greys finished training and tend to walk away from the Order. They refuse the Darkside and are just outside the Order. They are more Self Exiled and keep using the Force. Since the Order is Destroyed well Call os more An Exile.
While I understand where you are coming and agree to a degree. I agree that calling someone "grey" is relative to their era. But your arguments against the jedi and what era are good or not. Your misusing the word dogma here. Do the jedi have dogma yes any big organization like the jedi that holds some moral, ethical, philosophical, political dogma. You need some kind of dogma to hold your group. Dogma doesn't make something good or bad it's the specific thing they advocate for that is good or bad.
I like to think of a gray jedi as being someone who doesn't follow the Jedi order's ways, but doesn't seek out power over others. They give in to a desire, but don't want to do the Sith things because its not part of what they desire. They would be willing to use the Force in pursuit of wealth or things, and may take bounties, etc. The Sith and major full-on darkside users tend to usually try to rule the galaxy or assist in doing so (often with dreams of eventually moving up from second fiddle to first fiddle).
@@michaeld.jconnolly1281 That's just a typical "outcast" Jedi. To be a Grey Jedi, you have to accept the dark side if not embrace it as a part of yourself and the force. P.S. They're my favorite dark side users - the only ones who's doctrines could actually create a fully functional society.
I think part of the confusion also somes from a misunderstanding about the Jedi Code, and understanding the difference between "Tradition" and "Doctrine". The Jedi Code is the Doctrine, but the "Code if the Jedi Order", forlack of a better term, is Doctrine combined with Tradition. That's why the original Legendsverse EU included alternative Force organizations, and why they also pop up in the Disneyverse canon. Being a member of the Order and following their traditions doesn't make you a Jedi. Leaving the order doesn't mean you are no longer a Jedi. Both the Old and New EU have commented on how one of the reasons why the Jedi Order fell was because at the time, that Order had near monopoly on Code interpretation and recognized authority. "Maverick" Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn recognized the difference between the Jedi Code and the Order's Code, and would use that to "go against the Council", but at the time, Jedi like him were few and far between.
Tho Kanan also developed a strong romantic connection with Hera, as well as a more familial type of connection to the rest of the members of the Ghost crew. Not to mention that both Kanan and Cal were knighted as Jedi Knights. Tho I’m sure Cere would have disagreed if she discovered the romantic bond that was sparked between Cal and Merrin. There’s a lot of parallels between the two characters; but if anything they’re more like True Jedi rather than Grey Jedi imo; it’s their connections and relationships with those close to them that make them True Jedi imo. But I mean, not unless the title of “Grey Jedi” has become like a very wide ranging type of description, (which to my knowledge it hasn’t) but weather it be in canon or legends, the Grey Jedi terminology always seemed rather vague and subject to change by the fan base, and/or new shit is added to the teachings of the Grey Jedi constantly to help identify them easier) otherwise I think the whole “Grey Jedi” term just muddies things tbh, it should just be scrapped lol
@@maninanikittycat4238 Yeah honestly, I get that tho. I first started watching the show when I was like 15, and the whole Ghost crew had just reminded me of my family, my parents, my older siblings and everything… it’s probably why I like the show/the characters so much lol
Let's not forget Luke and Mara, or the High Republic Jedi who also had romantic relationships. Just bc a Jedi has a partner, that doesn't make them automatically "Gray" or not a Jedi anymore. Also I'm pretty sure Cere wouldn't have minded Cal and Merrin dating bc why would she care? The Order is gone and honestly needed reform anyway, and everyone's just going through life trying to survive and find out what being a Jedi means to them.
@@owenparris7490 Yeah definitely. Tho, I really only meant that cause Cere is more bent on the old ways of the Jedi. Lesser so in the first game I’d say (cause she was only rediscovering herself in a sense) but in Jedi Survivor she seems more in tune with the way of the Jedi of old. At the most it would probably bother her, but I’m sure she’d understand since Cal is kinda alone and impulsive at times.
@@owenparris7490 The main reason that Luke married is because the prequels were not out yet. The Phantom Menace would release the year after Luke proposed to Mara Jade (1998's Vision of the Future by Timothy Zahn) and the wedding happened in comics the same year The Phantom Menace released (1999). The attachment rule on Marriage/ dating was not really expanded on until Attack Of The Clones although the basics of no attachments were in The Phantom Menace.
I think we can’t ignore the fact Cal did embrace the darkness to defeat and kill someone and he did that willingly. In my opinion I think they are setting up Cal to potentially fall from Grace in a potential sequel, and I think that’s a natural progression of Cal. We see Jedi in the form of Dagan and Bode that good intentions and desire to do what’s necessary to protect your love ones or the things you desire leads to darkness. When call double tapped Bode I took that as him engaging embracing a inner darkness. Remember we had to embrace the darkside to overcome him during the fight and that can’t he ignored.
Exactly not to mention how cal manipulates the force hallucination dagan used against him to kill him using the dark side to stop bode was one thing then double tapping him seemed slightly excessive cal might not be yet but I do believe the seeds have be planted to make him a grey jedi especially since the story as a whole makes cal bode and dagan all parallels to each other desire for tannalor they all hate the empire all at one point where jedi and all have those they cared about and all where betrayed so it would make sense that cal much like bode and dagan did embrace his darkness but unlike them control it
That would be quite interesting. It would be kinda reminiscent how in Rebels S3, Ezra felt helpless after all that went down on Malachor with Ahsoka who was thought to be dead, and Kanan loosing his sight to Maul; so he turned to the Sith Holocron for guidance on how ti become stronger and more powerful so that he could protect the members of the Ghost Crew whom he considered family. As he opened the Sith Holocron, and began to converse with the voice of an ancient Sith Lord that emanated from the Holocron, he said: “Show me how to become stronger, more powerful! I will never let my friends get hurt again.”
Remember the visions of him becoming an Inquisitor? We only know that it’s a possible future for him. What we don’t know is how far into this possible future we were looking into when we saw the Inquisitor Cal The vision Cal was fighting could very well have been from a time post Jedi Survivor where he fell to the Dark Side. The details have changed and there’s a beard now but the potential is there
@@TheUncivilizedNation Now that you say that…… what if Cal is that random Inquisitor that was fighting Ahsoka in the trailer for the Ahsoka series… It’s a stretch ik lol but who knows 🤷♂️
You should pay attention to the meditation circle it turns red when he’s falling to the dark but after the end scene with cere it goes to a blueish grey
On the topic if the Jedi were wrong to forbid attachment/love; I find it interesting that Cal's attachment/relationship with his makeshift Mantis family is sort of what set off his rage when Bode betrayed them and Cere/Cordova died. On the opposite end, his attachment/love for Merrin is what pulled him back from the brink when he was about to kill Denvik, I honestly think that he would have fallen if she wasn't there to stop him. That being said I'm pretty sure if Bode killed Merrin Cal would also turn, I know I was ready to. Double edged sword I guess.
Cal is basically the Disney version of Kyle Katarn to me, especially now with the beard and gun lol. A Jedi that follows the light side but is pretty lenient with following the Old Order’s rules A classic Legends Jedi before the Prequels
To me the whole current jedi series feels like a spiritual successor to the old. Indiana Jones type jedi going on wild adventures uncovering ancient jedi stuff? Sounds familiar
Disneys Kyle? Not by a long shot! And I despise it. I would like to see Kyle, Cal, Luke ++form a new Jedi Order though. Closes similarity would be the dude from Rogue One. THE film pisney or Lucasfilmcould have introduced their version of Kyle Katarn. Maybe changed it so he stole PARTS of the Death star plans not all, like in Legends canon
Geetsly just did a really good video on why most people misunderstand the force, and his points show us why the concept of grey Jedi is fundamentally flawed. He points out that, according to Lucas himself, there isn't really a "light" side of the Force. The Force is a fundamentally good thing that intends to do what is best for all life, and to serve the light is to do for others. To provide for and help other people, and through that selfless action to be proud of the good you have done and thus find peace. The "dark side" is the deliberate perversion and corruption of the Force's power to serve selfish desires, to improve yourself at other's expense. The Force isn't a Ying-Yang, two halves of the same coin thing that are vying for power with each other. It is just positive (the force) and negative (the dark side). The phrase "light side" was used purely for the sake of simplifying the concept to the audience. Basically we should stop looking at the Force as a teeter-totter with one side being light and one side being dark and the middle being grey, and instead look at it as a boat on the water. The surface of the water is the Force, and that is where the boat should be for it's own safety. If you poke holes in the boat and it sinks it is now submerged by the dark side and it will eventually decay and be destroyed. It is everyone's best interest to stay above water.
@@silcoxjakob the Sith philosophy is wrong. That's the whole point. The Rule of Two really exists because any time a large number of dark side wielders get together, they inevitably destroy each other out of their envy, anger, and ambition
There's jedi who've used dark side abilities without going to the dark side entirely as well as characters who have used both without being jedi or sith, gray jedi. There's even dark jedi which are dark force users who aren't sith. Darth maul post clone wars is a good example. There's even light sith
Good arguments I think it’s hard to put a label on someone who is ascribing to the tenets of an order which no longer exists. Without its structure nobody can hold the line perfectly especially if you need attachments just to survive
To be fare the narrative of Jedi Survivor is made to put Cal in the position Cere was in Fallen Order, as she was in struggle with the dark side while trying to mentore Cal and finally being able to overcome the darkness and truly became a paragon of the Jedi Order. And this is probably what Cal will face in the 3rd part of the saga, training Kata and fighting his darkness.
3:15 That low key sounds like the middle way in Buddhism. For those who don’t know Buddhism the middle way is described as “the avoidance of two extremes of practical life, namely, indulgence in sensual pleasures on the one hand and severe asceticism on the other”
i think one of two things will happen in the sequel to this game: 1) he will (somehow) learn vaapad and use his dark side to his advantage (idk how that would translate gameplay-wise) or 2) in some moment that cal is about to turn dark, force ghost cere will speak to him and he will understand how cere won her fight vs the dark side and he will follow in her footsteps (i could picture this happening in a fight with vader)
People mistake gray Jedi with a Jedi who use dark side powers when in reality it means it’s a Jedi who strays from the normal Jedi norms but they are not sith
What we learn from the Father, Son, and Daughter in Clone wars or Bendu in Rebels about the force is that it is light AND dark in balance that makes the complete Force. George’s view for the force has been outdated since legends tbh let alone the more recent canon.
I'm under the opinion that the grey jedi stuff is pure wish fulfilment. People who want their OC to be a good guy yet have the cool sith powers (like my KOTOR character) and doest stack up to established lore. I feel that the force pushes you to one side or another and that any jedi using sith powers is on the path to the darkside and any sith doing good is pushed toward becoming a better person. Ad for the "not doing what the council says" stuff, I feel like that doesn't make you a grey jedi, it just makes you not a jedi. Not a sith, but a light side forc3 user not affiliated with the jedi mysticism and dogma.
I agree, I personally blame the West End Games Star Wars TRPG for some of that wish fulfillment. In that system the consequence for falling to the dark side is you hand your character over to the game master and your character becomes an NPC, which is basically character death
Nah if they're disagreeing with the Council they're a Dissident or Unorthodox Jedi. Then they'd be a Rogue Jedi if they left. They're still Jedi because they still follow the various Codes and Ideals and Teachings they just don't agree with the dogmatic strict interpretations and actions of the leadership.
I wouldn't say that not listening to the Council makes you not a Jedi, after all the Jedi Council always had flawed ideologies on the Force just look at Qui-Gon. He is a shining example of what the Jedi should be yet he did not want anything to do with it. Some other great examples include Kyle Katarn and Legends Luke, both of which have gone rather lenient on the rules of the Jedi yet are considered Jedi nonetheless
"Wish fulfillment" explains the "Gray" perfectly. Either definition is rooted in a desire to have some edge. Frankly any Jedi that doesn't follow the orthodoxy but still hews to the spirit of the code it still very much a Jedi, probably a more honest depiction than the rule-followers.
@@Pantherblack We'll see which interpretation is more honest when the Dawn of the Jedi film comes. Looks like even in Disney canon the Jedi start as using both the Light and Dark Sides but given that can't work something will go wrong somewhere. Then we'll see what the first Light Sider interprets their purpose as.
It plays with an interesting line of thought. In lore and games we are told Jedi - Good.. and Sith - Bad Jedi focus on order, logic and reason Sith focus on more emotional things like desire, power and the self But in many MANY stories, in order for the hero to prevail, including Luke, Cal, and even Kyle from Star Wars they needed to tap into that darker side... to embrace emotion in order to overcome hardship. Becoming a true Jedi is not labeled in never using the Darkside, but rather in not letting the darkside corrupt who you are. "Every Jedi must face the darkness." After all plenty of media show people embrace Darkness but use it along side their Light friends. Riku from KH is a great example I think.
Chiss ships have what they call an electrostatic barrier which is weaker then a normal shield and I believe can stop the plasma spheres the chiss use as well as slowing down incoming objects though I can't remember if it has an effect against lasers
See I feel this idea of tapping into emotions when fighting is the essence of a gray jedi, they don't embrace the dark side, but it still flows through them, not to mention the willingness to kill, I feel that makes Cal a gray jedi. I honestly even feel mace windu could be nearing the idea of a gray jedi as he let's the Darkseid flow through him even if he doesn't use it
That is not what is happening, Cal is struggling with the dark side, not harnessing it. They’re just setting up his internal struggle for the third game. The dark side in game is portrayed exactly how Yoda describes it. It’s easier, it’s quicker, and it’s tempting to use. He isn’t letting it flow, he’s struggling not to drown.
@@Reach42a I understand what you mean to a point, but I argue even when cal is 'giving in' we see use of his emotions, but we don't see him force choking or anything, we see him using abilities someone like mace windu uses. I think cal could spiral into the Darkseid fully or he could master this sort of in between that again is very close to Mace Windu and his actions
since the jedi series is suppose to be a trilogy what if he falls to the dark side in the last game, he temps the dark side in survivor with his super which kinda reminds me of the power trip aspect of the force unleashed, so what if it goes further and him tapping into the dark side makes him fall and he becomes the final boss of the last game. like since merin was trying to keep him on the light side if she dies then that might make him fall. we’ve seen in both games through dagen and talon a jedi falling because of either obsession or greed for power, what if we get to see a more in depth view of it from the third angle where attachment and love is what causes a slip to the dark side
I'm just glad they made him into something likeable and have a mindset with stuff that would happen in a normal person (emotion wise) instead of being a high and tight rules rules rules jedi type
There's only two kinds of grey jedi: the light siders that doesnt go full Jedi order And then there's Revan waltzing between light and dark side like it's Bastilla Shan's bedroom and a pile of dead mandos
I immediately had a thought of revan just doing an electro swing dance as he brutally kills a bunch of mandos before sliding into bestila's bedroom. Thank you
The quote from pirates of the Caribbean movie said by Geoffrey rush character, barbossa "the code is what you would call guidelines rather than actual rules"
3:24 Gotta admit though, Cal look great in Imperial officer's uniform. I used to picked Imperial officer as my character in MP lightsaber duel in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.
I like Cal arc across the two games so far, he still hold the Jedi ways close his heart so to speak, but at the same time, I feel like he could be a Anakin type Jedi. He was only a kid basically when Order 66 was executed, he saw his master die right in front of him, he had to go into hiding like all Jedi that did, also seeing his mate on Bracca die to the Inquisitors and showing himself to be a Jedi, fighting on throughout the first game, and now in Survivor doing something more. Lost of so many of his friends, can either strengthen or destroy him. I want to see more on what they do with Cal in future installments of the Jedi Fallen Order series, more than any other character.
As far as I am concerned, to be a gray Jedi, you must simple want something other than power. And hold to that. You don't want to conquer the galaxy. You don't want to ascend to second fiddle in doing that so that you can plan your attempt to become first fiddle. But you want something. And you will use The Force and training in its use, in your attempt to reach this. In a way, this means that Anakin/Darth Vader himself was in fact a so-called "Gray Jedi," albiet one who was swallowed by the turbulent darkness of his times and misguided by the hand of another. BUT He seemingly fell, and then redeemed himself, in the end and beginning, because of love. Love of his wife, and love of his son. A Gray Jedi is one who cares about something other than power, but refuses the ways of more "self-controlled" sects. There may be cases where Gray Jedi then joins one side or the other. There may also be cases where they never leave that side, the way Anakin left the darkness in his final moments. There are desires between control of self/nurturing the emotions of light of the classic Jedi, and the embrace of strong emotions/desire to control others that represents the darker aspects often associated with the Sith. It is when these desires are strong enough, that a Gray Jedi can remain... Gray.
Haven't watched the vid as I'm still trying to avoid spoilers for a future play through.. but the concept of the grey jedi has always bugged me. The whole good and bad and the in-between. Kyle Katarn Welded lightning and choke powers throughout the games jedi Knight and I never doubted his goodness... He was just a little less devote than the jedi of old.. he was a product of the new republic having survived the empire! Starkiller also welded force powers that were inherently dark but I don't think anyone doubted he had the good intentions of a jedi, he was just naive and manipulated..
Cal is a bad Light side Jedi, but if we’re talking about “grey,” his emotions and attachment with Merrin can probably color him a shade darker than most jedi would prefer, though still firmly in the light
In cannon he's blue, personally I think he should have a purple saber, considering he uses the dark side only when he has too but still dedicates his life to the light side
I FUCKING HATE THE CONCEPT OF GRAY JEDI. IT COMPLETELY TAKES AWAY FROM ANAKIN’S TRAGEDY AND IS NOT AT ALL IN LINE WITH HOW LUCAS INTENDED THE JEDI TO OPERATE. In the great words of Han Solo “THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!”
I mean, there's a reason in the current canon the Story Group and co aren't fans of using "Grey Jedi", it's just a weird and confusing term, not to mention what makes you a Jedi is identifying with their Order or philosophy. Every Jedi struggles with the Dark Side too, you don't suddenly become a "Grey Jedi" if you force choke somebody one day.
I don’t think even before the Disney story group the officials were to big on the term as even George has never liked the idea of grey Jedi. It was just used more back then because more games were coming out which is where the idea can live and a lot of fans were very vocal about it.
@@tjmcfadden5137 yeah, like the only way i can see the term being useful is it being basically shorthand for "nonaligned force user not bound to the light or dark", like how everyone just used "jedi" for any old force user
@@TyrannoNoddy I don't think it's possible to be a 'non-aligned force user not bound to like or dark'. The Force is _light_ and the dark is seductive. Either you're a force user who tried to stay in the light, or you're a force user who falls to the darkness
#askeck what warships, asides from dreadnoughts, did the Mon Cal have during the clone wars? Lore ship Versus video request: Resurgent vs. Starhawk Tie Striker vs. New Republic V-Wing World Devastator vs. Vong Worldship Tie Silencer vs. X-83 Twintail Tie Silencer vs. Tie Defender (legends version) Keldabe vs. ISD II MC90 vs. Nebula class star destroyer Nebula class vs. Pellaeon class Majestic class vs. Bothan Assault Cruiser EAWX: FOTR’s Mandator II portrayal vs. Subjugator Praetor vs. Subjugator EAWX: TR’s Mediator portrayal vs. Resurgent Starhawk vs. Bulwark MK III
A new term introduced by the high Republic is a wayseeker. A jedi who ever indefinitely or just for a period of time decides to operate indipendendently from the jedi order like supporting a side in a civil war when the jedi and the Republic cannot or will not get involved or just to be able to better follow the will of the force. This to me perfectly describes Jedi like ahsoka or qui-gon, they are still jedi but decided that they can better follow the will of the force apart from the direction of the jedi Council.
#AskEck I am currently in the middle of rereading the Darth Bane Trilogy and noticed something odd, the Jedi and people of the Republic (even the higher ups) seem to believe that with the destruction of the Brotherhood of Darkness at Seventh Battle of Ruusan the Sith were permanently wiped out, why would they think that so soon after since this is a scenario they faced multiple times in the past.
I think because by the end of the game cal still uses the dark side with the super ability thing or whatever, since he still openly uses the dark side I think he would be considered a grey Jedi
ALL Jedi are gray. Someone on the light side wouldn't decapitate and dismember people. A pure light Jedi would only use their power for knowledge and healing.
i think since Cal was young when he lost his mentor he puts his own spin on the force/fighting styles and its just because he is basically a self taught jedi. I really wouldn't even call him a canon jedi because of his fighting style and using the force but more like the ancient jedi in the books and comics where they use both dark and light side of the force
In the 'Star Wars Legends' comic book, Force Healing, a lightside technique, can only be learned after mastering Force Lightning, a darkside technique. As for your intentions ... your actions, and the outcome of those actions, matter more than your intentions. As the saying goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." It was the intention of the Jedi Council to ensure that Anakin didn't fall to the darkside by treating him as any other Jedi Padawan, even though they knew that he'd already formed attachments outside the Order (being too old to begin the training), and in the end it was their actions that alienated Anakin, leaving him susceptible to the machinations of Darth Sidious.
I dont really see the Grey Jedi as being a separate identity with their own code or any of that. The Grey Jedi theory is of an individual being pulled between adherence to one side of the Force or the other and the morality and actions of the person involved will set them down one path or the other, not a true third option. So a "Grey Jedi" is one who has yet to choose, or refuses to choose until the choice is forced upon them.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Ancient Sith and their knowledge, or lack thereof about the Star Forge! Ajunta Pall alludes quite heavily to the treasure of the Ancient Sith from his era to be the Star Forge, but I have yet to see this referenced anywhere else. I don't believe anyone other than the Rakatta, Revan, and Malak had anything to do with the Star Forge, or even had any knowledge whatsoever about its existence, and yet Pall seems to state otherwise and the Star Map is located within Naga Sadow's tomb, which couldn't have been a coincidence. Continuity error? Plot thread left unresolved? #askeck
I'm inclined to think that Cal's arc in probably the next game will mirror Cere's in a way and we'll see him overcome his struggles with the darkside and hold his own against Vader, probably still die but probably inflict the greatest injury on Vader since Obi-Wan and till Luke, and much of that arc will probably revolve around him teaching Kata as a new Jedi
I feel like the rules like the "no attachments" one are the because Jedi were not selective enough with who or how they trained. Kanan was in love with Hera and even though he has shown some unsavory behavior because of that he never got seduced by the dark side (even when it seemed like he is about to lose her). Falling for the darkness is a character flaw like when some people have anger issues and because there were thousands of Jedi, they needed to slap an "one-size-fits-all" policy on everyone.
Grey Jedi means something completely different depending on who you ask. I personally don't think Cal qualifies, and my main reason for that is he isn't a morally grey character. The main problem I have with Cal, especially in Survivor is that he'll randomly go from trying to save people by putting himself at risk because "It's the right thing to do." To ruthlessly threatening people, causing wanton destruction, and murdering legions of people. It's Ludonarrative dissonance in a very potent form. What makes characters morally grey is that they *don't* lean towards extreme ends of what is generally considered "good" and "bad." Han Solo is a perfect example in A New Hope. He doesn't align himself with the Empire or the Rebellion. Cal constantly oscillates between the "Light" and "Dark" sides of the force with no real reason.
Isn't that in the new Star Wars law, they seem to be open in rejecting the old ways. This is considering that the rigidness of the Jedi were the causes of their downfall.
They should’ve made it canon that his light saber was purple after he gets his own crystal especially since he actively uses the dark side and the light side
Good video. I would like to say though that Cal is not a Gray Jedi and to me the gray Jedi concept isn’t exactly canon yet so that disproves that he is a gray Jedi.
Yeah he's still a Light Sider just an Unorthodox Jedi pushed to the brink and having to endure an era where no Order exists where the old rules failed to prevent the current horrors and even arguably helped cause. One can't blame him for having such anger and fear and doubts and just wanting some kind of happiness with someone that reinforces his commitment to the Light (because True Love is actually something that leads to the Light the leadership was incorrect...Proven by the redemptions of Revan, Anakin and Ben because of Love).
theres a huge confusion between characters who dont follow the Jedi Order & their code, and Grey Jedi. The Order's code isnt the definitive version of the light side, they got a lot wrong and thats what the prequels are meant to show (and Cal realises this in Survivor), this means someone can stray from the order while still being 100% light side, like Cal or Ahsoka.
I wish we'd stop calling them gray jedi and call them witches like force users other than the Jedi and the Sith. Theyre both religious orders to some extent, you cant pick and choose, so once you dont follow the doctrine, you arent a member of that order..
Even with religions there are schisms that occur most times violently. Then not to mention differing interpretations and outlooks on the same scripture in times of war and peace.
@@flamesofchaos13 yes but there is no set sect or doctrine for "gray" Jedi, they're just former Jedi who don't want to follow their way. There isn't a gray Jedi order or anything.
@@Metawen Yes I know. My point is that them following the doctrine them not being able to pick n choose what to believe element...Is incorrect. Doctrine changes over time and is utterly up for interpretation, Choice is actually all about what makes a Jedi a Jedi...To willingly decide to embrace the Light and selflessly serve others. How one goes about helping others can indeed be differing and doesn't have to follow the will of the Council. For the Jedi that critique or disagree with the leadership and dogma they're Unorthodox. For the Jedi that think they can balance the Light and Dark they're Wrong becoming Fallen Jedi.
Using the term Grey Jedi to define Jedi that use the Light Side and Dark side equally is originally a fan created concept. In Canon, the Grey Jedi were simply members of the Jedi who left the order due to disagreements with the Order, like Dooku (before Sidious corrupted him), or Ashoka. The Jedi don't see the Light and Dark in a Yin-Yang perspective. They see the Light side as the healthy, natural state of the Force, and the Dark Side as a corruption or pollution of the Force.
Corvette ever since it was introduced in Cannon I generally replace the term gray Jedi with someone who follows the path of the bendu whether they do it knowingly or unknowingly. Someone who has an imbalance within themselves and self-control to where they can embrace the dark within them as a natural part of their being without being consumed by it. Someone who has the mental fortitude and discipline to allow themselves to feel and experience the full spectrum of emotions and use it without letting their emotions control them. For example one can feel rage without feeling hatred. Nowadays I only use the term gray Jedi for its second definition of one who simply is a Jedi but doesn't in here to the dogmatic religion at all or fully. What a lot of people get wrong is that if you use the dark side willingly you are in direct violation of the Jedi code and therefore can't be a Darksider and a Jedi at the same time. Just like how using the light side of the force and being a good decent person conflicts with the Sith code preventing you from being a Sith and a light Cider at the same time. So yeah you can use the light and dark without being consumed by one or blinded by the other as far as the way the Jedi see the force but you can't do so while also being a member of one of the two orders since it violates their Doctrine
Cals dark side super is awesome after respawn finishes the jedi trilogy i would like to see them do a sith game set in the old republic so they can really go all out with the power fantasy but still keep the souls like gameplay that makes the two jedi games so satisfying to play.
Where many see three codes, I see many more and I think That would be where Cal would be right now. Basically You have the Jedi, you have Jedi struggling with the dark side, you have grey Jedi, fallen Jedi (not fully embracing the darkness yet) and outright dark Jedi. The same is true however for the Sith as well? Sith, Sith feeling the influence of the light, grey Sith and light side Sith.
I think that if we go beyond the movie "black and white" definitions where Jedi == Good and Sith == Evil, we have to consider the extended universe creeds and mission statements of each when deciding if someone is aligned light, dark, or grey. The Jedi, in Extended, are very outspoken against embracing emotion of any kind. The ideal they strive for is pure unfeeling detachment. They seek to attain a higher degree of control within the Force by purging themselves of all distractions. The Sith, in Extended, are the opposite. They seek to immerse themselves in their emotions and to draw strength from all of them. The way I see it, a Grey Jedi is a force practitioner who does both. The ideal Grey Jedi seeks to make decisions in a calm and level-headed fashion, but will also channel emotional energy for a specific purpose, without becoming controlled by the emotion. Cal fits that. He draws strength from his relationships with his friends and applies that energy in pursuit of his objectives, but he actively resists succumbing to strong emotions and allowing himself to make decisions based upon them. Those are the actions of a Grey Jedi. Whether he INTENDS to walk the path of Grey specifically, I cannot guess, as we are not shown any scenes where Cal comes upon the knowledge of such teachings, but he is very obviously feeling his way along that path out of sheer necessity and practicality.
Interesting that Qui-Gon was brought into this conversation. He is a Jedi, no question, but shunned by the Council for his adherence to the Living Force philosophy. He also doesn’t mind bending a few rules to do what he feels is right. That’s what Cal Kestis is doing IMHO. His trauma from Order 66 is present and could cause him to give in to fear and anger, yet he clearly does his best not to. On the other side of the argument, Ahsoka does not call herself a Jedi and probably doesn’t think much of the old Jedi Order as they threw her to the wolves to preserve their reputation. She’s a force for good and seems rather calm most of the time. Yet she also openly uses fear tactics and aggression in The Mandalorian. Is this anger, hatred and pride at work? Or just her emulating Anakin’s unconventional, whatever-it-takes style?
Out of the 5 major force philosophies (Light, Dark, Night, Grey, and Je’dehi) I prefer Grey, because it falls under the category of what Anakin was supposed to be according to The Father of Mortis, someone who can control the dark side and the light, with the pure intention of keeping them in balance. The idea of the Grey Jedi was to sacrifice your life and what you could have done with it and instead studying, in order to gain power. The philosophy is that “if this power could be weld for good, it would be selfish not to defend others with it.” If you could kill Nihulis with his own force powers, you probably should.
It's always interesting when someone brings up the "attachments" side of Jedi lore. Let's not forget Obi-Wan and Satinne, but more importantly it was due to Lukes attachments that he lost at Cloud City and then won on the DS2 thus causing the figurehead of the Empire to fall. "Attachment" is therefore a term with some degree of nuance and complexity. As to Force powers, as we know Force lightning isn't dark side because some Jedi knew it's use, perhaps the difference is like Force Grip vs Force choke: grip is used on something non-sentient, a rock, say; Choke is used against sentients and the midichorians of said sentient rebel against the act until crushed by the choker. The rumble heard when Vader is choking someone is perhaps the midichlorians in opposition instead of agreement. Just a thought
The only jedi that canonically use force lightning is Kyle Katarn so video game. Plo Koon and Luke and every other Jedi are using electric judgement which is not a dark side ability
I mean yea. Forming of attachments are forbidden but happen anyways, but with Obi-wan and Satinne, he left her. He didn't persue it and knew it was wrong so he removed himself from that equation. Still a Jedi after all. The idea is that use of the Force matters for whether or not you use it to harm life or not. The Force is life itself after all, use it to harm someone and it's a dark power. Use it to make a point, it's a neutral power (Yoda in Episode 8 for example).
Cal not being a grey Jedi makes perfect sense if you think about it like Mace Windu. Equally strong in both the light and dark. Thus making sense if you use a purple saber crystal
THERE'S NO SUCH THING as a grey jedi. You can be a force user without following either religion, cause in the end that's what they are You could say Cal is agnostic
I see Cal in somewhat the same vein as Cade. A padawan who struggled and gave into fear to protect himself in a galaxy that, from his point of view, hates him. Despite the teachings of his mentor, he attempts to hide from his destiny but is somewhat of a hypocrite due to saving those (Prauf) in trouble at his own risk. They both struggle with the Dark Side but manage to push through it to acheive their goals and find the Light once more.
But do you have to use hate to use Force lightening?? Can’t you just use aggression? I like how in Legends the Jeda’ai of Typhon were considered out of balance if they leaned too far towards the light or dark.
![All 14 Lightsaber Color Meanings Explained + Which Lightsaber Color Suits You Quiz [Legends + Canon]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LENX-hQx7cg/mqdefault.jpg)
Gray or not, he definitely is a badass and a great character.
for me, I interpreted Cal developing attachments and "time to leave the order behind" as a recognition that the Jedi Order in the prequels were flawed. a true jedi is about serving the force to keep balance and not necessarily about all these rules. especially when it was attachment in RotJ that brought back Anakin, but supressing his attachment turned him to the dark side.
PS, Zee from the "golden age of the jedi" also called Cal a real Jedi too
Attachment is a possessive bond, so the Jedi were actually right about that.
@@grimlord3181nah
Except keeping balance is what the jedi do. The Sith are a corruption of the force they try to bend the force to their will on the galaxy.
Also the Jedi are morally grey, they are not noble crusaders going forth and destroying evil they are peace keepers who always try to negotiate first.
Case and point episode 1, the morally good thing to do would have been to send all the jedi to curbstomp the trade federation who are engaging in cartoonishly evil behavior. They don't so that they send two jedi to try and serve aa mediators and resolve the conflict without violence on either side because war sucks.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again; I believe that Star Wars fundamentally misunderstands human nature. There is a way to draw on the darker parts of yourself without relinquishing yourself to it, and trying to reject those darker parts of yourself is an impossible task that only makes things worse. Hate, anger, fear can be transformed into confidence, determination & caution. It can give you the wisdom and strength to find balance within yourself if you are guided properly. The Jedi order can be, and is wrong about many things.
i know i'm a year late to this but
look at windu, he basically is that you say, he not only embraced his darks side, he also used it to be a better and stronger jedi, that's why his lightssaber is purple too
that being said, i hope cal is the next canon character to have a purple lightsaber, i feel like it really suits him, especially after jedi survivor
@@juanix9948 That is indeed why he is one of my favourite characters.
No, he’s very much a light-side Jedi, but he’s struggling with his inner darkness, especially after the events of Jedi Survivor
This is the way
Grey Jedi would also refer to those that do not follow the Order, some consider Qui Gon a grey Jedi for example
But the door is very open to him becoming a true grey jedi
@garlic4742 Qui-Gon was one of the most Jedi Jedi to ever have Jedi'd. The reason he chose not to serve on the council was because he wanted to better serve the common people and follow the true path of the Force. People just use "gray Jedi" to pretend there are Jedi who use the dark side willingly and frequently, when doing so would mean they aren't actually Jedi. Gray Jedi don't exist. You can't be a Jedi and use the dark side without turning to it completely
He's a mix between a grey and dark Jedi
I think the term "Grey Jedi" is a misnomer even when talking about the Jolee Bindo sort. Mostly because something we've seen consistently is that the dogmatic Jedi Order where they have things like rules against "attachment" and relationships are the versions that are about to be destroyed or fall. There are also eras where the Jedi allow and even encourage relationships both romantic and familial and their more concerned with morality than dogmatism.
Jolee Bindo is 'grey' in that he specifically disowns a lot of the tradition of the Jedi of his own time, but not 'grey' in that he's clearly dedicated to the light
Greys finished training and tend to walk away from the Order. They refuse the Darkside and are just outside the Order. They are more Self Exiled and keep using the Force. Since the Order is Destroyed well Call os more An Exile.
While I understand where you are coming and agree to a degree. I agree that calling someone "grey" is relative to their era. But your arguments against the jedi and what era are good or not. Your misusing the word dogma here. Do the jedi have dogma yes any big organization like the jedi that holds some moral, ethical, philosophical, political dogma. You need some kind of dogma to hold your group. Dogma doesn't make something good or bad it's the specific thing they advocate for that is good or bad.
I like to think of a gray jedi as being someone who doesn't follow the Jedi order's ways, but doesn't seek out power over others. They give in to a desire, but don't want to do the Sith things because its not part of what they desire. They would be willing to use the Force in pursuit of wealth or things, and may take bounties, etc.
The Sith and major full-on darkside users tend to usually try to rule the galaxy or assist in doing so (often with dreams of eventually moving up from second fiddle to first fiddle).
@@michaeld.jconnolly1281 That's just a typical "outcast" Jedi. To be a Grey Jedi, you have to accept the dark side if not embrace it as a part of yourself and the force.
P.S. They're my favorite dark side users - the only ones who's doctrines could actually create a fully functional society.
Read the title as “is cal kestis a gay jedi” and was expecting an interesting upload
Well if you watched Shameless he is
🏳️🌈
Lol.
After the events of this game he’s bi at most
@@sentientmustache8360is that confirmed
I think part of the confusion also somes from a misunderstanding about the Jedi Code, and understanding the difference between "Tradition" and "Doctrine". The Jedi Code is the Doctrine, but the "Code if the Jedi Order", forlack of a better term, is Doctrine combined with Tradition. That's why the original Legendsverse EU included alternative Force organizations, and why they also pop up in the Disneyverse canon. Being a member of the Order and following their traditions doesn't make you a Jedi. Leaving the order doesn't mean you are no longer a Jedi. Both the Old and New EU have commented on how one of the reasons why the Jedi Order fell was because at the time, that Order had near monopoly on Code interpretation and recognized authority. "Maverick" Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn recognized the difference between the Jedi Code and the Order's Code, and would use that to "go against the Council", but at the time, Jedi like him were few and far between.
Tho Kanan also developed a strong romantic connection with Hera, as well as a more familial type of connection to the rest of the members of the Ghost crew. Not to mention that both Kanan and Cal were knighted as Jedi Knights. Tho I’m sure Cere would have disagreed if she discovered the romantic bond that was sparked between Cal and Merrin.
There’s a lot of parallels between the two characters; but if anything they’re more like True Jedi rather than Grey Jedi imo; it’s their connections and relationships with those close to them that make them True Jedi imo.
But I mean, not unless the title of “Grey Jedi” has become like a very wide ranging type of description, (which to my knowledge it hasn’t) but weather it be in canon or legends, the Grey Jedi terminology always seemed rather vague and subject to change by the fan base, and/or new shit is added to the teachings of the Grey Jedi constantly to help identify them easier) otherwise I think the whole “Grey Jedi” term just muddies things tbh, it should just be scrapped lol
Tbh Kanan reminds me a little bit of my dad. Especially with Ezra
@@maninanikittycat4238 Yeah honestly, I get that tho. I first started watching the show when I was like 15, and the whole Ghost crew had just reminded me of my family, my parents, my older siblings and everything… it’s probably why I like the show/the characters so much lol
Let's not forget Luke and Mara, or the High Republic Jedi who also had romantic relationships. Just bc a Jedi has a partner, that doesn't make them automatically "Gray" or not a Jedi anymore. Also I'm pretty sure Cere wouldn't have minded Cal and Merrin dating bc why would she care? The Order is gone and honestly needed reform anyway, and everyone's just going through life trying to survive and find out what being a Jedi means to them.
@@owenparris7490 Yeah definitely.
Tho, I really only meant that cause Cere is more bent on the old ways of the Jedi. Lesser so in the first game I’d say (cause she was only rediscovering herself in a sense) but in Jedi Survivor she seems more in tune with the way of the Jedi of old. At the most it would probably bother her, but I’m sure she’d understand since Cal is kinda alone and impulsive at times.
@@owenparris7490 The main reason that Luke married is because the prequels were not out yet. The Phantom Menace would release the year after Luke proposed to Mara Jade (1998's Vision of the Future by Timothy Zahn) and the wedding happened in comics the same year The Phantom Menace released (1999). The attachment rule on Marriage/ dating was not really expanded on until Attack Of The Clones although the basics of no attachments were in The Phantom Menace.
I think we can’t ignore the fact Cal did embrace the darkness to defeat and kill someone and he did that willingly. In my opinion I think they are setting up Cal to potentially fall from Grace in a potential sequel, and I think that’s a natural progression of Cal.
We see Jedi in the form of Dagan and Bode that good intentions and desire to do what’s necessary to protect your love ones or the things you desire leads to darkness.
When call double tapped Bode I took that as him engaging embracing a inner darkness. Remember we had to embrace the darkside to overcome him during the fight and that can’t he ignored.
Exactly not to mention how cal manipulates the force hallucination dagan used against him to kill him using the dark side to stop bode was one thing then double tapping him seemed slightly excessive cal might not be yet but I do believe the seeds have be planted to make him a grey jedi especially since the story as a whole makes cal bode and dagan all parallels to each other desire for tannalor they all hate the empire all at one point where jedi and all have those they cared about and all where betrayed so it would make sense that cal much like bode and dagan did embrace his darkness but unlike them control it
That would be quite interesting. It would be kinda reminiscent how in Rebels S3, Ezra felt helpless after all that went down on Malachor with Ahsoka who was thought to be dead, and Kanan loosing his sight to Maul; so he turned to the Sith Holocron for guidance on how ti become stronger and more powerful so that he could protect the members of the Ghost Crew whom he considered family.
As he opened the Sith Holocron, and began to converse with the voice of an ancient Sith Lord that emanated from the Holocron, he said:
“Show me how to become stronger, more powerful! I will never let my friends get hurt again.”
He double tapped Bode because Bode double tapped Cordova idk if it was deeper than that
Remember the visions of him becoming an Inquisitor? We only know that it’s a possible future for him. What we don’t know is how far into this possible future we were looking into when we saw the Inquisitor Cal
The vision Cal was fighting could very well have been from a time post Jedi Survivor where he fell to the Dark Side. The details have changed and there’s a beard now but the potential is there
@@TheUncivilizedNation Now that you say that…… what if Cal is that random Inquisitor that was fighting Ahsoka in the trailer for the Ahsoka series…
It’s a stretch ik lol but who knows 🤷♂️
You should pay attention to the meditation circle it turns red when he’s falling to the dark but after the end scene with cere it goes to a blueish grey
The second well made Cal with facial hair I’ve seen!
Wow, the customization in this game is intense!
His base look is the best imo
the customization is definitely an awesome part of the game
RIP poncho
@@TAP7a You can still get the poncho, actually, it's just behind an annoying boss.
On the topic if the Jedi were wrong to forbid attachment/love; I find it interesting that Cal's attachment/relationship with his makeshift Mantis family is sort of what set off his rage when Bode betrayed them and Cere/Cordova died. On the opposite end, his attachment/love for Merrin is what pulled him back from the brink when he was about to kill Denvik, I honestly think that he would have fallen if she wasn't there to stop him. That being said I'm pretty sure if Bode killed Merrin Cal would also turn, I know I was ready to. Double edged sword I guess.
Cal is basically the Disney version of Kyle Katarn to me, especially now with the beard and gun lol. A Jedi that follows the light side but is pretty lenient with following the Old Order’s rules
A classic Legends Jedi before the Prequels
Qui-gon Jin. Which is also prequels.
To me the whole current jedi series feels like a spiritual successor to the old. Indiana Jones type jedi going on wild adventures uncovering ancient jedi stuff? Sounds familiar
You can actually wear Kyle Katarns clothing. You can buy that leather shoulder pad at Doma’s
Disneys Kyle? Not by a long shot! And I despise it. I would like to see Kyle, Cal, Luke ++form a new Jedi Order though. Closes similarity would be the dude from Rogue One. THE film pisney or Lucasfilmcould have introduced their version of Kyle Katarn. Maybe changed it so he stole PARTS of the Death star plans not all, like in Legends canon
I feel like cal is the modern day luke skywalker, except Disney not ruining him
Geetsly just did a really good video on why most people misunderstand the force, and his points show us why the concept of grey Jedi is fundamentally flawed. He points out that, according to Lucas himself, there isn't really a "light" side of the Force. The Force is a fundamentally good thing that intends to do what is best for all life, and to serve the light is to do for others. To provide for and help other people, and through that selfless action to be proud of the good you have done and thus find peace. The "dark side" is the deliberate perversion and corruption of the Force's power to serve selfish desires, to improve yourself at other's expense. The Force isn't a Ying-Yang, two halves of the same coin thing that are vying for power with each other. It is just positive (the force) and negative (the dark side). The phrase "light side" was used purely for the sake of simplifying the concept to the audience. Basically we should stop looking at the Force as a teeter-totter with one side being light and one side being dark and the middle being grey, and instead look at it as a boat on the water. The surface of the water is the Force, and that is where the boat should be for it's own safety. If you poke holes in the boat and it sinks it is now submerged by the dark side and it will eventually decay and be destroyed. It is everyone's best interest to stay above water.
I love geetsly
Exactly. Love Geetsly
Spacedock has a good video as well - this is absolutely correct
But doesnt rule of 2 contradict that? If it wouldnt dilute the dark side why is their not a sith army
@@silcoxjakob the Sith philosophy is wrong. That's the whole point. The Rule of Two really exists because any time a large number of dark side wielders get together, they inevitably destroy each other out of their envy, anger, and ambition
Gonna be that guy: Gray Jedi don’t exist. You’re either Jedi, Sith or Force Adept with a lightsaber. Plo Koon had a force lightning but for light side
in legends they existed
Plo Koon uses force judgment
There's jedi who've used dark side abilities without going to the dark side entirely as well as characters who have used both without being jedi or sith, gray jedi. There's even dark jedi which are dark force users who aren't sith. Darth maul post clone wars is a good example.
There's even light sith
@@anteprs7908Legends isn't canon anymore so don't even try using that to explain something from current canon
@@0din176 i am not explaining only saying that in legends grey jedi worked and are canon to a point
You deserve a million subs bro. Love your stuff and have for years 👍
Good arguments I think it’s hard to put a label on someone who is ascribing to the tenets of an order which no longer exists. Without its structure nobody can hold the line perfectly especially if you need attachments just to survive
To be fare the narrative of Jedi Survivor is made to put Cal in the position Cere was in Fallen Order, as she was in struggle with the dark side while trying to mentore Cal and finally being able to overcome the darkness and truly became a paragon of the Jedi Order. And this is probably what Cal will face in the 3rd part of the saga, training Kata and fighting his darkness.
3:15 That low key sounds like the middle way in Buddhism.
For those who don’t know Buddhism the middle way is described as “the avoidance of two extremes of practical life, namely, indulgence in sensual pleasures on the one hand and severe asceticism on the other”
i think one of two things will happen in the sequel to this game: 1) he will (somehow) learn vaapad and use his dark side to his advantage (idk how that would translate gameplay-wise) or 2) in some moment that cal is about to turn dark, force ghost cere will speak to him and he will understand how cere won her fight vs the dark side and he will follow in her footsteps (i could picture this happening in a fight with vader)
No he's the ginger Jedi
You’re right
According to Lucas there's no such thing as grey jedi. The whole "grey jedi" thing just seems like a video game power fantasy.
Cal doesnt strike anyone down out of hate or anger. Keeps going to the brink but always steps back. Still a jedi
Is very interesting that on the new game when you meditate on the animation of him sitting down he always says “there is only the force”
My sleep-deprived ass read this as ''Is Cal Kestis a G@y Jedi?''
People mistake gray Jedi with a Jedi who use dark side powers when in reality it means it’s a Jedi who strays from the normal Jedi norms but they are not sith
Maybe when he's older. For now he's a ginger jedi.
What we learn from the Father, Son, and Daughter in Clone wars or Bendu in Rebels about the force is that it is light AND dark in balance that makes the complete Force. George’s view for the force has been outdated since legends tbh let alone the more recent canon.
I'm under the opinion that the grey jedi stuff is pure wish fulfilment. People who want their OC to be a good guy yet have the cool sith powers (like my KOTOR character) and doest stack up to established lore. I feel that the force pushes you to one side or another and that any jedi using sith powers is on the path to the darkside and any sith doing good is pushed toward becoming a better person.
Ad for the "not doing what the council says" stuff, I feel like that doesn't make you a grey jedi, it just makes you not a jedi. Not a sith, but a light side forc3 user not affiliated with the jedi mysticism and dogma.
I agree, I personally blame the West End Games Star Wars TRPG for some of that wish fulfillment. In that system the consequence for falling to the dark side is you hand your character over to the game master and your character becomes an NPC, which is basically character death
Nah if they're disagreeing with the Council they're a Dissident or Unorthodox Jedi. Then they'd be a Rogue Jedi if they left. They're still Jedi because they still follow the various Codes and Ideals and Teachings they just don't agree with the dogmatic strict interpretations and actions of the leadership.
I wouldn't say that not listening to the Council makes you not a Jedi, after all the Jedi Council always had flawed ideologies on the Force just look at Qui-Gon. He is a shining example of what the Jedi should be yet he did not want anything to do with it. Some other great examples include Kyle Katarn and Legends Luke, both of which have gone rather lenient on the rules of the Jedi yet are considered Jedi nonetheless
"Wish fulfillment" explains the "Gray" perfectly. Either definition is rooted in a desire to have some edge.
Frankly any Jedi that doesn't follow the orthodoxy but still hews to the spirit of the code it still very much a Jedi, probably a more honest depiction than the rule-followers.
@@Pantherblack We'll see which interpretation is more honest when the Dawn of the Jedi film comes. Looks like even in Disney canon the Jedi start as using both the Light and Dark Sides but given that can't work something will go wrong somewhere. Then we'll see what the first Light Sider interprets their purpose as.
It plays with an interesting line of thought.
In lore and games we are told Jedi - Good.. and Sith - Bad
Jedi focus on order, logic and reason
Sith focus on more emotional things like desire, power and the self
But in many MANY stories, in order for the hero to prevail, including Luke, Cal, and even Kyle from Star Wars they needed to tap into that darker side... to embrace emotion in order to overcome hardship.
Becoming a true Jedi is not labeled in never using the Darkside, but rather in not letting the darkside corrupt who you are.
"Every Jedi must face the darkness."
After all plenty of media show people embrace Darkness but use it along side their Light friends. Riku from KH is a great example I think.
Chiss ships have what they call an electrostatic barrier which is weaker then a normal shield and I believe can stop the plasma spheres the chiss use as well as slowing down incoming objects though I can't remember if it has an effect against lasers
See I feel this idea of tapping into emotions when fighting is the essence of a gray jedi, they don't embrace the dark side, but it still flows through them, not to mention the willingness to kill, I feel that makes Cal a gray jedi. I honestly even feel mace windu could be nearing the idea of a gray jedi as he let's the Darkseid flow through him even if he doesn't use it
This is exactly what a grey should be but most people dismiss the concept as wish fulfillment.
That is not what is happening, Cal is struggling with the dark side, not harnessing it. They’re just setting up his internal struggle for the third game.
The dark side in game is portrayed exactly how Yoda describes it. It’s easier, it’s quicker, and it’s tempting to use. He isn’t letting it flow, he’s struggling not to drown.
@@Reach42a I understand what you mean to a point, but I argue even when cal is 'giving in' we see use of his emotions, but we don't see him force choking or anything, we see him using abilities someone like mace windu uses. I think cal could spiral into the Darkseid fully or he could master this sort of in between that again is very close to Mace Windu and his actions
since the jedi series is suppose to be a trilogy what if he falls to the dark side in the last game, he temps the dark side in survivor with his super which kinda reminds me of the power trip aspect of the force unleashed, so what if it goes further and him tapping into the dark side makes him fall and he becomes the final boss of the last game. like since merin was trying to keep him on the light side if she dies then that might make him fall. we’ve seen in both games through dagen and talon a jedi falling because of either obsession or greed for power, what if we get to see a more in depth view of it from the third angle where attachment and love is what causes a slip to the dark side
I'm just glad they made him into something likeable and have a mindset with stuff that would happen in a normal person (emotion wise) instead of being a high and tight rules rules rules jedi type
There's only two kinds of grey jedi: the light siders that doesnt go full Jedi order
And then there's Revan waltzing between light and dark side like it's Bastilla Shan's bedroom and a pile of dead mandos
I immediately had a thought of revan just doing an electro swing dance as he brutally kills a bunch of mandos before sliding into bestila's bedroom.
Thank you
Cal Kestis is what we thought Jedi in Luke's New Order would look like before the sequel trilogy.
The quote from pirates of the Caribbean movie said by Geoffrey rush character, barbossa "the code is what you would call guidelines rather than actual rules"
Bro I didn’t know this would have spoilers
Is bode a dark side user
In EA's mobile game star wars Galaxy of Heroes Cal is in the game and he is called a "Unaligned Force User" Along with Cere and Ashoka Tano (fulcrum)
3:24 Gotta admit though, Cal look great in Imperial officer's uniform.
I used to picked Imperial officer as my character in MP lightsaber duel in Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast.
I like Cal arc across the two games so far, he still hold the Jedi ways close his heart so to speak, but at the same time, I feel like he could be a Anakin type Jedi.
He was only a kid basically when Order 66 was executed, he saw his master die right in front of him, he had to go into hiding like all Jedi that did, also seeing his mate on Bracca die to the Inquisitors and showing himself to be a Jedi, fighting on throughout the first game, and now in Survivor doing something more. Lost of so many of his friends, can either strengthen or destroy him.
I want to see more on what they do with Cal in future installments of the Jedi Fallen Order series, more than any other character.
As far as I am concerned, to be a gray Jedi, you must simple want something other than power. And hold to that. You don't want to conquer the galaxy. You don't want to ascend to second fiddle in doing that so that you can plan your attempt to become first fiddle.
But you want something. And you will use The Force and training in its use, in your attempt to reach this.
In a way, this means that Anakin/Darth Vader himself was in fact a so-called "Gray Jedi," albiet one who was swallowed by the turbulent darkness of his times and misguided by the hand of another. BUT He seemingly fell, and then redeemed himself, in the end and beginning, because of love. Love of his wife, and love of his son.
A Gray Jedi is one who cares about something other than power, but refuses the ways of more "self-controlled" sects.
There may be cases where Gray Jedi then joins one side or the other. There may also be cases where they never leave that side, the way Anakin left the darkness in his final moments.
There are desires between control of self/nurturing the emotions of light of the classic Jedi, and the embrace of strong emotions/desire to control others that represents the darker aspects often associated with the Sith.
It is when these desires are strong enough, that a Gray Jedi can remain... Gray.
Haven't watched the vid as I'm still trying to avoid spoilers for a future play through.. but the concept of the grey jedi has always bugged me. The whole good and bad and the in-between. Kyle Katarn Welded lightning and choke powers throughout the games jedi Knight and I never doubted his goodness... He was just a little less devote than the jedi of old.. he was a product of the new republic having survived the empire!
Starkiller also welded force powers that were inherently dark but I don't think anyone doubted he had the good intentions of a jedi, he was just naive and manipulated..
Cal is a bad Light side Jedi, but if we’re talking about “grey,” his emotions and attachment with Merrin can probably color him a shade darker than most jedi would prefer, though still firmly in the light
New Jedi protagonist comes out.
Their fans:
"Is this a Gray Jedi?"
Cal is just getting in touch with his inner Kratos
In cannon he's blue, personally I think he should have a purple saber, considering he uses the dark side only when he has too but still dedicates his life to the light side
I FUCKING HATE THE CONCEPT OF GRAY JEDI. IT COMPLETELY TAKES AWAY FROM ANAKIN’S TRAGEDY AND IS NOT AT ALL IN LINE WITH HOW LUCAS INTENDED THE JEDI TO OPERATE. In the great words of Han Solo “THATS NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS!”
I mean, there's a reason in the current canon the Story Group and co aren't fans of using "Grey Jedi", it's just a weird and confusing term, not to mention what makes you a Jedi is identifying with their Order or philosophy. Every Jedi struggles with the Dark Side too, you don't suddenly become a "Grey Jedi" if you force choke somebody one day.
I don’t think even before the Disney story group the officials were to big on the term as even George has never liked the idea of grey Jedi. It was just used more back then because more games were coming out which is where the idea can live and a lot of fans were very vocal about it.
@@tjmcfadden5137 yeah, like the only way i can see the term being useful is it being basically shorthand for "nonaligned force user not bound to the light or dark", like how everyone just used "jedi" for any old force user
@@TyrannoNoddy I don't think it's possible to be a 'non-aligned force user not bound to like or dark'. The Force is _light_ and the dark is seductive. Either you're a force user who tried to stay in the light, or you're a force user who falls to the darkness
#askeck what warships, asides from dreadnoughts, did the Mon Cal have during the clone wars?
Lore ship Versus video request:
Resurgent vs. Starhawk
Tie Striker vs. New Republic V-Wing
World Devastator vs. Vong Worldship
Tie Silencer vs. X-83 Twintail
Tie Silencer vs. Tie Defender (legends version)
Keldabe vs. ISD II
MC90 vs. Nebula class star destroyer
Nebula class vs. Pellaeon class
Majestic class vs. Bothan Assault Cruiser
EAWX: FOTR’s Mandator II portrayal vs. Subjugator
Praetor vs. Subjugator
EAWX: TR’s Mediator portrayal vs. Resurgent
Starhawk vs. Bulwark MK III
A new term introduced by the high Republic is a wayseeker. A jedi who ever indefinitely or just for a period of time decides to operate indipendendently from the jedi order like supporting a side in a civil war when the jedi and the Republic cannot or will not get involved or just to be able to better follow the will of the force.
This to me perfectly describes Jedi like ahsoka or qui-gon, they are still jedi but decided that they can better follow the will of the force apart from the direction of the jedi Council.
#AskEck I am currently in the middle of rereading the Darth Bane Trilogy and noticed something odd, the Jedi and people of the Republic (even the higher ups) seem to believe that with the destruction of the Brotherhood of Darkness at Seventh Battle of Ruusan the Sith were permanently wiped out, why would they think that so soon after since this is a scenario they faced multiple times in the past.
I think because by the end of the game cal still uses the dark side with the super ability thing or whatever, since he still openly uses the dark side I think he would be considered a grey Jedi
For a second I though I read “is Cal Kestis a gay Jedi.”
If he is, I bet he would be quite shameless
same, way to get people to have a double take. lol.
ALL Jedi are gray. Someone on the light side wouldn't decapitate and dismember people. A pure light Jedi would only use their power for knowledge and healing.
i think since Cal was young when he lost his mentor he puts his own spin on the force/fighting styles and its just because he is basically a self taught jedi. I really wouldn't even call him a canon jedi because of his fighting style and using the force but more like the ancient jedi in the books and comics where they use both dark and light side of the force
Just so you know,the chiss ships do in fact have shields, just worse shields called electrostatic barriers which block frequencies of spectrum lasers.
…Me playing the game for a week
Video :”hey, we are just a few weeks out from the release”
Hes definitely with the lightside but struggles with his emotions. I always give him a Orange saber, a mix of yellow, protection and red, passion.
In the 'Star Wars Legends' comic book, Force Healing, a lightside technique, can only be learned after mastering Force Lightning, a darkside technique. As for your intentions ... your actions, and the outcome of those actions, matter more than your intentions. As the saying goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
It was the intention of the Jedi Council to ensure that Anakin didn't fall to the darkside by treating him as any other Jedi Padawan, even though they knew that he'd already formed attachments outside the Order (being too old to begin the training), and in the end it was their actions that alienated Anakin, leaving him susceptible to the machinations of Darth Sidious.
Me and my friends can't decide whether he's a Grey jedi or not so we constantly throw around the joke that he is a "free-lance jedi for hire".
I dont really see the Grey Jedi as being a separate identity with their own code or any of that. The Grey Jedi theory is of an individual being pulled between adherence to one side of the Force or the other and the morality and actions of the person involved will set them down one path or the other, not a true third option.
So a "Grey Jedi" is one who has yet to choose, or refuses to choose until the choice is forced upon them.
I feel the best example of a grey jedi or grey would be Galen marek. To hell with cannon he was AWESOME.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Ancient Sith and their knowledge, or lack thereof about the Star Forge! Ajunta Pall alludes quite heavily to the treasure of the Ancient Sith from his era to be the Star Forge, but I have yet to see this referenced anywhere else. I don't believe anyone other than the Rakatta, Revan, and Malak had anything to do with the Star Forge, or even had any knowledge whatsoever about its existence, and yet Pall seems to state otherwise and the Star Map is located within Naga Sadow's tomb, which couldn't have been a coincidence.
Continuity error? Plot thread left unresolved? #askeck
"Is cal kestis a grey jedi"
"No this is patrick"
When you embrace the darkened Cal gets the same moveset as Cere
I'm inclined to think that Cal's arc in probably the next game will mirror Cere's in a way and we'll see him overcome his struggles with the darkside and hold his own against Vader, probably still die but probably inflict the greatest injury on Vader since Obi-Wan and till Luke, and much of that arc will probably revolve around him teaching Kata as a new Jedi
him dying to vader would be such a lame anticlimactic way to end the character's story
Thanks for spoiling two specific things in the footage without warnings. A certain boss and an intimate scene.
I feel like the rules like the "no attachments" one are the because Jedi were not selective enough with who or how they trained. Kanan was in love with Hera and even though he has shown some unsavory behavior because of that he never got seduced by the dark side (even when it seemed like he is about to lose her). Falling for the darkness is a character flaw like when some people have anger issues and because there were thousands of Jedi, they needed to slap an "one-size-fits-all" policy on everyone.
Grey Jedi means something completely different depending on who you ask. I personally don't think Cal qualifies, and my main reason for that is he isn't a morally grey character. The main problem I have with Cal, especially in Survivor is that he'll randomly go from trying to save people by putting himself at risk because "It's the right thing to do." To ruthlessly threatening people, causing wanton destruction, and murdering legions of people. It's Ludonarrative dissonance in a very potent form. What makes characters morally grey is that they *don't* lean towards extreme ends of what is generally considered "good" and "bad." Han Solo is a perfect example in A New Hope. He doesn't align himself with the Empire or the Rebellion. Cal constantly oscillates between the "Light" and "Dark" sides of the force with no real reason.
This is a very bad take on the game I m sorry and on the character itself
Isn't that in the new Star Wars law, they seem to be open in rejecting the old ways. This is considering that the rigidness of the Jedi were the causes of their downfall.
They should’ve made it canon that his light saber was purple after he gets his own crystal especially since he actively uses the dark side and the light side
the concept of gray jedi is absurd. jedi vs sith or light vs dark is selfish vs selfless, not "good" vs "evil"
Read that as "Is Cal Kestis a Gay Jedi" 💀
Merrin would not approve
Same
Good video. I would like to say though that Cal is not a Gray Jedi and to me the gray Jedi concept isn’t exactly canon yet so that disproves that he is a gray Jedi.
Yeah he's still a Light Sider just an Unorthodox Jedi pushed to the brink and having to endure an era where no Order exists where the old rules failed to prevent the current horrors and even arguably helped cause.
One can't blame him for having such anger and fear and doubts and just wanting some kind of happiness with someone that reinforces his commitment to the Light (because True Love is actually something that leads to the Light the leadership was incorrect...Proven by the redemptions of Revan, Anakin and Ben because of Love).
Common order L
The jedi rule against attachments feels like the prime directive. They only ever talk about the rule when they're breaking it
No. A grey jedi is in control of, and uses freely, both the light and dark sides. Cal is obviously not in control of his dark side.
theres a huge confusion between characters who dont follow the Jedi Order & their code, and Grey Jedi. The Order's code isnt the definitive version of the light side, they got a lot wrong and thats what the prequels are meant to show (and Cal realises this in Survivor), this means someone can stray from the order while still being 100% light side, like Cal or Ahsoka.
You know cal would be a great route towards fret Jedi in the cinematic universe
I wish we'd stop calling them gray jedi and call them witches like force users other than the Jedi and the Sith. Theyre both religious orders to some extent, you cant pick and choose, so once you dont follow the doctrine, you arent a member of that order..
gray jedi are fromer jedi that why the jedi part
Even with religions there are schisms that occur most times violently. Then not to mention differing interpretations and outlooks on the same scripture in times of war and peace.
@@flamesofchaos13 yes but there is no set sect or doctrine for "gray" Jedi, they're just former Jedi who don't want to follow their way. There isn't a gray Jedi order or anything.
@@Metawen Yes I know. My point is that them following the doctrine them not being able to pick n choose what to believe element...Is incorrect. Doctrine changes over time and is utterly up for interpretation, Choice is actually all about what makes a Jedi a Jedi...To willingly decide to embrace the Light and selflessly serve others. How one goes about helping others can indeed be differing and doesn't have to follow the will of the Council.
For the Jedi that critique or disagree with the leadership and dogma they're Unorthodox. For the Jedi that think they can balance the Light and Dark they're Wrong becoming Fallen Jedi.
@@flamesofchaos13 they aren't Jedi though. The "fallen" part is just an adjective. Fallen or Gray Jedi aren't an order.
sooo the intro thing still isnt back right
well
thats sad to see
:/
edit: no why was it on the other video im confused
Using the term Grey Jedi to define Jedi that use the Light Side and Dark side equally is originally a fan created concept. In Canon, the Grey Jedi were simply members of the Jedi who left the order due to disagreements with the Order, like Dooku (before Sidious corrupted him), or Ashoka. The Jedi don't see the Light and Dark in a Yin-Yang perspective. They see the Light side as the healthy, natural state of the Force, and the Dark Side as a corruption or pollution of the Force.
Corvette ever since it was introduced in Cannon I generally replace the term gray Jedi with someone who follows the path of the bendu whether they do it knowingly or unknowingly. Someone who has an imbalance within themselves and self-control to where they can embrace the dark within them as a natural part of their being without being consumed by it. Someone who has the mental fortitude and discipline to allow themselves to feel and experience the full spectrum of emotions and use it without letting their emotions control them. For example one can feel rage without feeling hatred. Nowadays I only use the term gray Jedi for its second definition of one who simply is a Jedi but doesn't in here to the dogmatic religion at all or fully. What a lot of people get wrong is that if you use the dark side willingly you are in direct violation of the Jedi code and therefore can't be a Darksider and a Jedi at the same time. Just like how using the light side of the force and being a good decent person conflicts with the Sith code preventing you from being a Sith and a light Cider at the same time. So yeah you can use the light and dark without being consumed by one or blinded by the other as far as the way the Jedi see the force but you can't do so while also being a member of one of the two orders since it violates their Doctrine
Cals dark side super is awesome after respawn finishes the jedi trilogy i would like to see them do a sith game set in the old republic so they can really go all out with the power fantasy but still keep the souls like gameplay that makes the two jedi games so satisfying to play.
Where many see three codes, I see many more and I think That would be where Cal would be right now.
Basically You have the Jedi, you have Jedi struggling with the dark side, you have grey Jedi, fallen Jedi (not fully embracing the darkness yet) and outright dark Jedi.
The same is true however for the Sith as well? Sith, Sith feeling the influence of the light, grey Sith and light side Sith.
I think that if we go beyond the movie "black and white" definitions where Jedi == Good and Sith == Evil, we have to consider the extended universe creeds and mission statements of each when deciding if someone is aligned light, dark, or grey.
The Jedi, in Extended, are very outspoken against embracing emotion of any kind. The ideal they strive for is pure unfeeling detachment. They seek to attain a higher degree of control within the Force by purging themselves of all distractions.
The Sith, in Extended, are the opposite. They seek to immerse themselves in their emotions and to draw strength from all of them.
The way I see it, a Grey Jedi is a force practitioner who does both. The ideal Grey Jedi seeks to make decisions in a calm and level-headed fashion, but will also channel emotional energy for a specific purpose, without becoming controlled by the emotion.
Cal fits that. He draws strength from his relationships with his friends and applies that energy in pursuit of his objectives, but he actively resists succumbing to strong emotions and allowing himself to make decisions based upon them. Those are the actions of a Grey Jedi.
Whether he INTENDS to walk the path of Grey specifically, I cannot guess, as we are not shown any scenes where Cal comes upon the knowledge of such teachings, but he is very obviously feeling his way along that path out of sheer necessity and practicality.
I think he will be eventually. He's started down the path in Survivor. Let's see what happens.
Interesting that Qui-Gon was brought into this conversation. He is a Jedi, no question, but shunned by the Council for his adherence to the Living Force philosophy. He also doesn’t mind bending a few rules to do what he feels is right.
That’s what Cal Kestis is doing IMHO. His trauma from Order 66 is present and could cause him to give in to fear and anger, yet he clearly does his best not to.
On the other side of the argument, Ahsoka does not call herself a Jedi and probably doesn’t think much of the old Jedi Order as they threw her to the wolves to preserve their reputation. She’s a force for good and seems rather calm most of the time. Yet she also openly uses fear tactics and aggression in The Mandalorian. Is this anger, hatred and pride at work? Or just her emulating Anakin’s unconventional, whatever-it-takes style?
Out of the 5 major force philosophies (Light, Dark, Night, Grey, and Je’dehi) I prefer Grey, because it falls under the category of what Anakin was supposed to be according to The Father of Mortis, someone who can control the dark side and the light, with the pure intention of keeping them in balance. The idea of the Grey Jedi was to sacrifice your life and what you could have done with it and instead studying, in order to gain power. The philosophy is that “if this power could be weld for good, it would be selfish not to defend others with it.” If you could kill Nihulis with his own force powers, you probably should.
There are no more proper Jedi. He is simply Cal. Former Padawan and current badass.
It's always interesting when someone brings up the "attachments" side of Jedi lore. Let's not forget Obi-Wan and Satinne, but more importantly it was due to Lukes attachments that he lost at Cloud City and then won on the DS2 thus causing the figurehead of the Empire to fall. "Attachment" is therefore a term with some degree of nuance and complexity. As to Force powers, as we know Force lightning isn't dark side because some Jedi knew it's use, perhaps the difference is like Force Grip vs Force choke: grip is used on something non-sentient, a rock, say; Choke is used against sentients and the midichorians of said sentient rebel against the act until crushed by the choker. The rumble heard when Vader is choking someone is perhaps the midichlorians in opposition instead of agreement. Just a thought
The only jedi that canonically use force lightning is Kyle Katarn so video game. Plo Koon and Luke and every other Jedi are using electric judgement which is not a dark side ability
I mean yea. Forming of attachments are forbidden but happen anyways, but with Obi-wan and Satinne, he left her. He didn't persue it and knew it was wrong so he removed himself from that equation. Still a Jedi after all.
The idea is that use of the Force matters for whether or not you use it to harm life or not. The Force is life itself after all, use it to harm someone and it's a dark power. Use it to make a point, it's a neutral power (Yoda in Episode 8 for example).
He’s definitely a gray jedi and definitely a strong on
Cal not being a grey Jedi makes perfect sense if you think about it like Mace Windu. Equally strong in both the light and dark. Thus making sense if you use a purple saber crystal
Acknowledge the Darkness within, Embrace the Light Within.
THERE'S NO SUCH THING as a grey jedi. You can be a force user without following either religion, cause in the end that's what they are
You could say Cal is agnostic
I like to refer to the Geetslys video on this topic.
What about calling cal a je'daii? for they used both light and dark but never let one side be in control just a thought.
I see Cal in somewhat the same vein as Cade.
A padawan who struggled and gave into fear to protect himself in a galaxy that, from his point of view, hates him. Despite the teachings of his mentor, he attempts to hide from his destiny but is somewhat of a hypocrite due to saving those (Prauf) in trouble at his own risk.
They both struggle with the Dark Side but manage to push through it to acheive their goals and find the Light once more.
But do you have to use hate to use Force lightening?? Can’t you just use aggression? I like how in Legends the Jeda’ai of Typhon were considered out of balance if they leaned too far towards the light or dark.
The way I see it now (not 100% complete though) is that he’s basically seeing himself as not a Jedi at all any more