It wasn't until I turned FIFTY years old did I understand my purpose in music...and to not judge myself against the successes of my peers. I'm finally able to exaggerate the things that make my own style, and enjoy the music my mind and body create. These things are big lessons to learn.
Easy answer: you get your utilities cut off, you get your car reposed and probably lose your house... but you might actually get good at your instrument.
Jeff, thanks so much for sharing this. I played professionally for 15 years, and eventually burned out, and became a programmer. I've struggled to get back into playing over the last 7 years for all the reasons you laid out. It's not my identity anymore, but when I start playing again it causes a conflict in my identity, and I start to attack myself. I'm not nearly as good as I was, and might not ever be, but it doesn't mean I'm a bad person, or that I can't make good music. Focusing on making good music, is such a great way to put it. This absolutely landed with me, and tbh was exactly what I needed to hear, thanks!
I'm not a sax player and never went to a traditional music school, but i felt the exact same way about my old YT channel Lie Likes Music. I worked 12 hours every day making video essays about various bands and artists. It was a great success. Millions of people watched. But whenever a video didn't get as many views as my earlier ones, my ego would take a hit. It's so easy to confuse self-worth with your achievements when you're obsessed with something or have a dream you want to achieve. Now, a few years later, i work as a guitar teacher. And i want to be one of the best teachers. But in order to do that i have to truly listen and understand my students. That change in perspective has helped me gain some stability and mental well-being. Also having a life beside teaching and music helped. Things like physical exercise, time with friends and family etc. Thanks for sharing this Jeff. Definitely connected with you here.
porter robinson has this song called get your wish and its kinda about a young artist rising to fame and questioning himself whether thats what he really wants. i barely know any of his songs but i'll never forget when i just turned on the radio one day on my walks and just heard it come outta no where! (i didnt know who he was before that lol)
Your point about music becoming part of your identity when you practice that much holds true in academia generally. When I was doing a PhD and was obsessed with my thesis, my whole self worth was tied to whether I could solve a problem or whether I found that someone else had already had my idea etc. This isn't quite the same as "how you sound", but it's a similar idea: if you're obsessed with one thing your mood can fluctuate and your mental health can be quite fragile.
And imagine now having a 1y old toddler when you have this mindset, as I currently do. I did realize that it is slowly destroying me, when I have this constant urge to find a time to practice even if I'm drain completely of my energy and when there is completely no time for it. It is really making a difference to think differently and focus on making good music (even if right now feels like complete enigma) and I believe it will help me to appreciate more the time that I have with this little beauty. Thank you very much Jeff!
Practice in your mind! i compose, improvise, work passages constantly. While your washing baby bottles for the 10 time in the last hour, stand there at the sink and realize your free as a bird. When you get some time to sit down and record or write something down you the engine will be in prime condition. Also listen to great music with your kids, i think i covered the last 1000 years of masterworks with my son. We listen daily, your wife will appreciate the break as well. So you get two for one!
Thank you for your sharing. It reminds me the old days I practised 8-10 hr at the con. That's really waste of time. Mindful practice and mental practice save me a lot of time. Now I only practice 2 hours and the result is far better than those 8 hours.
I got a daytime job, so with 2-4hrs of practice, I put a little in on technique, a little writing for the band, a little production and editing. Just to feel motivated.
Practicing that much makes you a technical specialist in your instrument but not a better musician. There are so many great song writers that are not technical wizards. Practice does have its place but it should serve the greater purpose!
This really resonates with me. I started playing late in life. 17 years old and I come a family of incredible musicians. This made it even tougher and I practiced 6-8 hours every singe day for the first 2 years. I did get very good in a short period of time, but my I think my sanity suffered a lot. I think we are all our own worst enemies at a time and we really need to show ourselves compassion and empathy. Great video my man. I just found you and keep doing what you are doing. You are helping a lot of people by sharing this information.
One of the greatest teachers on the net. I bought some of your courses and they are just better than years of studying with mediocre teachers!Thank you for sharing your precious knowledge! Keep on going!
This content is an important discussion. I experienced this dilemma as a member of a traveling sales team. I hung in there four and a half years. I won a few perks and I am grateful for the experience.
I’m an engineer and I get the same feelings working the regular old 9-5 (though in my case, 7:30-5). I was always the “smart kid”, all through college. I recently started my first job, and I’d bet I’m one of the lowest performing employees - it’s hard to compete with people with years and years of experience, and I lack a lot of the “workplace skills” that seemingly come easily to others. Even if I know I’ll get there one day, it still sucks feeling like the one thing I’m good at isn’t good enough anymore. And I’d be lying if I said I didn’t go through some intense periods of self-loathing. So thank you for talking about this. I feel seen.
If you need/want to focus specifically on performance goals, one thing that can help is learning how to shift out of first person and into third person perspective. So along the lines of 'Let's see how Jeff is going to handle this' as opposed to 'I have to do better on this than I did yesterday'. With sports, this also helped me a lot from a visualization standpoint. It gets you away from reaching for outcomes in the emotional realm and more into the currency of physical reality. I think it's pretty hard for most people to really invest themselves in things and not see what they feel are good returns.
Hey Jeff, That was me exactly. I am a piano player, until I was maybe 50 I didn't realize that it wasn't the piano I loved but the music that came from the piano. ie: making good music.I also discovered from studying with great mentors who practiced that 12-hour shift( u are correct). You have to have a passion to successfully do it or that will never happen, you won't get good enough at 6 hrs a day or it will take years. Beating yourself up over just not being good enough because you're just a mediocre doer, lazy, etc. The solution is to find what you love, you will without effort practice for a huge amount of hours, and never look back. I did 6hrs a day for a few years. It did land me in some national projects ( actually a great horn band from the SF Bay Area). but I couldn't care less. I love writing and being in the studio. Find your passion, This is your Dharma, and struggle should never accompany your efforts. This is a promise. Thank you for this brother.
I’m a pianist too. And trust me it depends on your talent and how efficient your practice schedule is and if you have a good teacher. I started at 8 hrs a day then 10, 12 finally 15-16 hrs a day until my hands would swell up. For me the sweet spot was 8.5 hrs a day. I became a virtuoso after that time period of 5 yrs. But I started as a young child and now it’s been 45 years! Unfortunately, I agree six hours is normally not enough for the average person!
Well, as a smalltime producer, I think about any given song as a group of parts. Usually, The artist is the central piece as singer, writer, and pretty good instrumentalist. Usually, they play guitar or piano. For virtuoso parts, I have a list of hit-men and women to add 'touches' to the whole thing. ALL of the musicians on these projects grapple with the issues discussed here. Thanks, Jeff, for helping to 'crystalize' these things.
I clicked on this expecting some cool statistics and info about the optimal time to spend practicing, and I am VERY glad I watched the whole thing because I got much more than I bargained for. This was extremely valuable, thank you for posting this.
Just finished a show in the pit this evening and ran into this vid. I teach and play professionally… I get about 8hrs a day. If you, meaning anyone, hurt after extended playing I’d be checking technique. Also, you don’t always have to have axe in hand to ‘practice’. This is coming from one who has a Jazz Pedagogy undergrad and a Theory & Comp MA. Musicality isn’t all chops… there is a pile of listening involved as well.
As a drummer, who has recently taken up learning tenor sax, and here going off on a slight tangent, to lighten the mood, over the years I've met, and played along side, some seriously together musician's, most of them have been great people to work with, but, I've also met some seriously gifted musicians, studying 8 hours every day during their music school days, and beyond, who were completely devoid of any personality.🎶🎶🎷👍
Jeff, thank you so much for your words, wisdom and guidance. You closed a door that should have been closed years ago to that voice of the inner critic. I plan on misplacing that key for ever! And you re-opened the door of truly not tying my musical identity to my own self worth through reminding us of the different between "getting good at music" vs "making good music". I truly love making good music and your words helped to reframe this truth. Many thanks!
Also: it took me a very long time to understand that it's better to focus on quality rather than quantity, and doing so with a perspective of achieving a certain result - e.g. learning scales better, or chord changes, or whatever. I did a very intense period of practicing many hours a day at some point in my life, but I just established an arbitrary agenda without looking at which results I wanted to get (I just wanted to "get better", without any clear definition for what "better" actually meant). If I were to study music again (which I haven't for many years - I transitioned to another area), I would only focus on which things I wanted to get better at, instead of "practicing for the sake of practicing".
You got me in 6 minutes….im currently Reading Kenny Werner’s book on this to sort me out…..It takes time to find yourself as a musician after all this - you get caught up in all the stuff you have to master before you can play music in front of people again - but sadly that day never comes where you are satisfied with your abilities and music turns into a thing you spent your life on but can’t share with anyone… you have to enjoy what you do and the journey you are on.
Just from a practical perspective, part of getting good is listening. If you're practicing by yourself 12 hours a day you're probably not hearing enough of other people's music. But i agree with the broader points you're making.
Good point. My teacher has said that music is a language. And to get really good at speaking a language, you should really immerse yourself into the culture. I might add that in addition to practicing, and listening, don't forget sometimes just play.
Making the shift from getting good at music to making good music was such an important thing for me. Focusing on myself always made me think way too much and try way too hard. Which is not a great mindset to have for making music, in my experience. Now, I usually just try to enjoy the music and do whatever feels right. Most people don't care about you being virtuosic anyway (not that I am, lol). They're here for the music and that should be your primary goal. Of course, if you want to improve, you have to focus on getting good to some extent. In my practice routine, I try to include both: the hyper-critical part of me that obsesses over details, but also the part that just wants to hit some drums real loud.
This is brilliant, thank you! I completely agree with you, and though I did eventually come around to this same realisation, I'm embarrassed to say it took me several decades to figure out. But you've also said it far better than I would have done. I started playing guitar on my 7th b'day, and by the time I reached me teens, I was already practicing 8-10 hrs every day. A clear sign that something wasn't quite right is that I would feel I'd done well for that day if at least one finger was bleeding by the end of it. I mean, what kind of sick goal was that?! Unfortunately, it took me many years - and a several-years hiatus, during which I picked up the Renaissance lute and had to follow my lute teacher's unyielding instructions to 'Relax! This isn't weightlifting!' ('relax' is not a word I would have ever used in the same sentence as 'guitar' or 'practice') - to figure out that everything becomes easier (and more fun) when you let it happen, rather than try and force it to happen. And your wording, 'make good music', is pitch-perfect. Cheers!
An interesting angle because that's how it is. Haven't thought about that before either but now that you said it, yes. There is a difference and the difference is precisely in how we define and judge ourselves. It really should always be - regardless of the art whether music or prose or something else - about the output, not about how good I'm at doing it. Because concentrating on technique and on my ability may well take away some of the quality and if it takes away quality, it may take away confidence too. I'm saying this as a writer but as someone who has been trying to learn to play piano too.
I would add something to the duality of making good music and to be good at music. If you put your self in being good at any of those 2 things, and something or someone (yourself for example) makes you feel that it isn't good, it feels like if your whole person is being rejected, whether it is a piece you can't play quickly enough or a song of your own that sounds bad. You do not become less attached to the songs you write, your value is not only in your playing but in those songs
There is a scientific paper called "Optimizing performance through intrinsic motivation and attention for learning: The OPTIMAL theory of motor learning" that, in part, talks about what you mention here. It's been a bit so this might not be the best summary, but whatever. Basically you want to focus on the task it's self, not your performance of the task. The wording you used in this video is doing just that, "Make good music" is putting the emphasis on the doing of the task. "Be good at music" is putting the focus on yourself, thusly removing attention from the task, causing worse performance, which makes you more self conscious, which removing attention from the task, causing worse performance, which makes you more self conscious, which goes on and on. The reverse can also happen. You do good leading to less self consciousness, leads to more focus on the task, yadda yadda, so on and so forth. There's a lot more to it then just this. It's a interesting read, I recommend.
So much of music school is, intentional or not, about convincing students that "being good at music" is more important than "making good music". It's something I'm still trying to unlearn over a decade after graduation.
You slowly lose your mind as you gradually realize youre spiraling down a bottomless pit of endless self criticism and perfectionism that sucks all enjoyment out of music and consumes all your creative energy :D Well i can only talk from my own experience of course lololol
Bravo, Jeff! This should be Video Lesson Number One for all student musicians who aspire to play music. And I say that having the least credibility to respond to this video as a musician, which I have recently become. I'm adult learner and taught myself how to play the horn. Only this year did I finally convince msyelf that I belong in the band in the third trumpet chair. Anyway, I had heard that story about Charlie Parker, and your comment that beyond four or five hours a day, music then becomes your identity. If you read Parker's biography, his was an awful life. And he rarely had good things to say about himself. I feed the birds and play the trumpet to them every day. I am always completely dumfounded that instead of flying away, they actually come to the bird feeder when I start my long tones. It's struck me that what they understand is that I am singing my song, which means everything is good and okay--there's no danger, the coast is clear, the world is all good because I am playing music. And that has been a whole new gift for me just to sit back and play all this wonderful music that's all written out in front of me, and to play it out with all the rest of the birds around me, humann or other species... Good or bad, great or mediocre, so long as its your best, that's all that matters.
I work as a Java software developer, and the way I started getting into soft deveopment was just having like 10-11 hours of learning (watching video guides and stuff like that, practicing) a day. I did this for about a year in this wild manner. I had a gap year after school, and also moved to a new area where all the contacts with my old friends were pretty much lost. So I had nothing else to do, but I knew I had to make something of my life, get a profession at least. I had never been a good student at school, more like a hooligan or something although I had never been agressive, but when I was a teen, I started abusing alcohole and even some substances, nothing too heavy though. And there I was acting like a freaking nerd barely stepping foot out of my house being fully submerged into programming. I even did a channel on learning Java (this very one I'm writing from) although I myself only had a year of experience or so. But after a year of that passionate learning I got into learning English and did a similar thing with it, although a tiny bit less active. But it would still be 6-7 hours of daily practice. Then I went to college on a programming course and through the college I was again acting mostly like a dumb ass. By the end of it I honestly was about to give up and go work as a taxi driver or something. But I was lucky enough to be able to get my first job as a Java developer in an enterprise company and now I'm in my third company, have been working commercally for abt 4 years. And you know, every day, when there's a problem I cannot solve or have trouble solving, I feel like a piece of shit. Every time that I read about something that "every developer should know", I feel like a piece of shit coz I don't remember even hearing about it. Every time I think "Damn, I'm a developer, but my biggest knowelege about math seems to have stopped on the 5th grade" I feel like shit. Too lazy to go into learning that, but active enough to feel like shit. So yearh, I guess it does become part of your personality. Has nothing to do with music, but that's my experience of doing certain stuff intensely for a long period of time.
I started learning music to write some melodies for a game I was programming. One thing led to another and all these years later I am on the piano grinding away all day for no apparent reason other than my ear holes enjoy it. I think I am addicted. I work from home as a programmer and like a good addict I placed my drug of choice, the piano, directly in front of me so that I can interface with it all day. Now, if it only tendinitis and tension wasn't so damned painful I would be doing it now.
Resonated so much with this. Kenny Werner's book Effortless Mastery was a massive game changer for me in college and helped me start reforming my relationship with myself and my instrument!
I’ve been a Nurse for a long time. Enough time and varied experience to be considered a “professional” I didn’t get there overnight. The times when I felt the most growth was in those times that I’d consider focused quality “practice”. The amount of hours you do anything doesn’t always translate to improvement the same way quality time does. Quality time is the “thing”.
When I was younger, I was so self-conscious about being judged that I never wanted anyone to hear me while I practiced/played. (Plus, it was so hard just to do scales.) I had the opportunity in my mother's house when she went to work to play the piano- for up to 8 hours. I simply loved to play for the sake of playing. When she retired after a couple of months, I stopped, even though she wanted me to play. But the main point I don't understand is why people simply just don't play because they love to.
I have noticed that I must stop and come back the next day to it. My teacher used to say the brain needs time to connect the neurons and so dont overplay.
The key takeaway from this video for me is the idea of focusing on being good at music (soloist mentality) versus making good music (band mentality). There is a distinction there, very true. I think I fluctuate between the two to be honest, it depends on scheduling and gig etc. and that alternating process has made me better overall.
Music is not just a physical activity...it requires mental focus..as well as the ability to instill emotion and meaning into the music...in order to make good music...it is not impossible to practice 12 hours a day...I think it is very rare to actually do 12 hours of continuous musical thinking and expression. In fact you can improve your playing by just playing in your mind...I will argue...if you can't do that..then you may not be in the right line of work!!..I am sure there are those who can...but I think they are rare...for those who can't do that the only measure is the physical one...which makes for good technical ability..but I don't think that is healthy..music can be a healthy practice..and should be..Charlie Parker was very gifted and talented...but you have to see if he lead a healthy and happy life if he didn't..well you figure it out
Thank you for your comments. You may be aware that much of what you advise has been said by Kenny Werner as well. In my experience effective practice is a much more important goal than length of practice. Unfortunately for me, it took a lot of overly long, obsessive, self deprecating practice periods for me to realize that.
Related to your last point about making music vs "being good at it" -- I certainly admire and envy the chops and improvisational abilities of many accomplished Jazz players, but when all you do is "music" then there's no actual life that comes through it. There's so much syrupy, banal music by people with chops I'll never have, and music I adore from people whose chops will never reach mine but they bring real passion through it and make *art*.
When deciding to take music seriously and trying to get into my dream music school, I practiced 60-70 hours a week on top of being in multiple bands, luckily my hard work paid off and I got in! I was very excited and felt like I was going to make it in life. First week there, I went through the band auditions and… was given last chair in the lowest band. It was simultaneously a wake up call and a huge demotivator. Here I was thinking I was all that and a bag of chips. I had gone from a place where I was beyond the best musician in my circle, to now being the worst, and I had placed all my bets on this dream. As you said, when you commit to music 100% and make it your life, your identity and self worth becomes attached to how well you play in that moment. And I had been shattered. I thought so much about giving up, and could hardly practice at all for a while. I would just sit in the practice room in silence, wondering what I was doing with my life. Luckily I persevered, got my degree, and played professionally for many years. But I never truly got back that same level of motivation that I had before music school. I always wondered how my music career would have been different if I hadn’t lost that momentum. But, ultimately I think I ended up with a much happier life once I was able to let go of that dream of being the best and allowed other things to be important in my life, and didn’t attach all of my self worth to just music.
GREAT MESSAGE MAN SO TRUE THANK U SO MUCH IM A TENOR SAXOPHONE PLAYER. AND EVERYTHIG U SAID IS SO ON TARGET THANK U FOR SHARING THIS ALL THE BEST TO U MIKE
Very interesting topic. I did the 15 hrs a day in my early teens. Hardly attended school. Started gigging soon after a lot and the practice dropped off. I started realizing I was improving more by playing with others than at home alone.. now I just do maintenance” practice.
A topic that’s close to me. I do like the odd 8h day of practise, and then I find them enjoyable. I tried a week of 8h days, then I felt more problems with my body. I also know it took a couple of years before I could do longer days, at first my basic technique and stamina wasn’t good enough.
This comparison issue is huge in all arts. You see another players strength as a reflection of your weakness. This comparison happens in sports a lot also. You identify with the activity that you are doing. Many young men base their identity on sports then they can’t play at the college level and they have a massive identity issue. This happens to musicians also.
Not 12 hours, but been practising many, many more hours than usual in an effort to "get good at it." But the progress is infinitesimally slow, however. No fast results even with all the tips I have found on UA-cam.
There isn't a way to avoid these kinds of feelings. Charlie Parker didn't practice 12 hours a day his whole life. He did it for as he said 3-4 years. Doing that over 3 years is around 13k hours of practice. That is what is needed as a minimum. But great musicians don't have to put in 12 hours every day after they have reached that kind of mastery. 3-4 is enough after Often just playing with people which isn't necessarily practice can be enough after that level of work. There are also unavoidable stages of development. Before you can make great music, you really do need to focus on being good at music. It's a developmental path. You can make good music without being great though, but if you want to be a virtuoso type of player you have to focus on being great at the instrument knowing the music is bad. It falls into place with time. Even playing 4 hours a day is enough to get your identity tied up with the instrument. There is no avoiding the identity thing. 99 percent of people drop out though, that is the difference. Of all of those great jazz players in school how many still dedicate themselves to playing at that level? 1 out of 100?
I think , just my thoughts. Early on practice as much as you can. Later in life you bring it into balance with evreyday life. Depends on what your goals are.
A while back I picked a guitar (years without serious practicing) and decided to practice as much as I possibly could. We'll, couple days later I had developed tennis/guitar elbow and I needed to pack my guitar back to the case.
You should check out Kenny Werner and his book effortless mastery if you don't already know him (which would surprise me). He talks a lot about self criticism and self-worth assessment based on music performance.
Personally, I find three to five hours to be the sweet spot for practice. I can go a lot longer if it is just playing for fun or if I am in a creative groove, but proper practice I start to burn out at the 4 hour mark (of actual practice, not including break time). I can have days where I might practice seven hours and it just okay, but if I do that every day, I burn out big time.
It wasn't until I turned FIFTY years old did I understand my purpose in music...and to not judge myself against the successes of my peers. I'm finally able to exaggerate the things that make my own style, and enjoy the music my mind and body create.
These things are big lessons to learn.
Sounds great, congratulations
Easy answer: you get your utilities cut off, you get your car reposed and probably lose your house... but you might actually get good at your instrument.
😂facts
Jeff, thanks so much for sharing this. I played professionally for 15 years, and eventually burned out, and became a programmer. I've struggled to get back into playing over the last 7 years for all the reasons you laid out. It's not my identity anymore, but when I start playing again it causes a conflict in my identity, and I start to attack myself. I'm not nearly as good as I was, and might not ever be, but it doesn't mean I'm a bad person, or that I can't make good music. Focusing on making good music, is such a great way to put it. This absolutely landed with me, and tbh was exactly what I needed to hear, thanks!
This is so relatable.
Me too
I'm not a sax player and never went to a traditional music school, but i felt the exact same way about my old YT channel Lie Likes Music. I worked 12 hours every day making video essays about various bands and artists. It was a great success. Millions of people watched.
But whenever a video didn't get as many views as my earlier ones, my ego would take a hit. It's so easy to confuse self-worth with your achievements when you're obsessed with something or have a dream you want to achieve.
Now, a few years later, i work as a guitar teacher. And i want to be one of the best teachers. But in order to do that i have to truly listen and understand my students. That change in perspective has helped me gain some stability and mental well-being. Also having a life beside teaching and music helped. Things like physical exercise, time with friends and family etc.
Thanks for sharing this Jeff. Definitely connected with you here.
Dude don't you have a huge channel? I remember your videos, they were excellent! You don't make videos on that channel anymore?
@@chadhiggins9944 Sure. And thank you. No not anymore. I started a new one where i teach guitar.
I liked that channel. Glad you're doing stuff that's good for you though
porter robinson has this song called get your wish and its kinda about a young artist rising to fame and questioning himself whether thats what he really wants. i barely know any of his songs but i'll never forget when i just turned on the radio one day on my walks and just heard it come outta no where! (i didnt know who he was before that lol)
Good luck!
Your point about music becoming part of your identity when you practice that much holds true in academia generally. When I was doing a PhD and was obsessed with my thesis, my whole self worth was tied to whether I could solve a problem or whether I found that someone else had already had my idea etc. This isn't quite the same as "how you sound", but it's a similar idea: if you're obsessed with one thing your mood can fluctuate and your mental health can be quite fragile.
And imagine now having a 1y old toddler when you have this mindset, as I currently do. I did realize that it is slowly destroying me, when I have this constant urge to find a time to practice even if I'm drain completely of my energy and when there is completely no time for it. It is really making a difference to think differently and focus on making good music (even if right now feels like complete enigma) and I believe it will help me to appreciate more the time that I have with this little beauty. Thank you very much Jeff!
Practice in your mind! i compose, improvise, work passages constantly. While your washing baby bottles for the 10 time in the last hour, stand there at the sink and realize your free as a bird. When you get some time to sit down and record or write something down you the engine will be in prime condition. Also listen to great music with your kids, i think i covered the last 1000 years of masterworks with my son. We listen daily, your wife will appreciate the break as well. So you get two for one!
Thank you for your sharing. It reminds me the old days I practised 8-10 hr at the con. That's really waste of time. Mindful practice and mental practice save me a lot of time. Now I only practice 2 hours and the result is far better than those 8 hours.
The Griffith Conservatorium?
what do you do in the 2 hours that make it more productive than the 8 hours? thanks
I got a daytime job, so with 2-4hrs of practice, I put a little in on technique, a little writing for the band, a little production and editing. Just to feel motivated.
Practicing that much makes you a technical specialist in your instrument but not a better musician. There are so many great song writers that are not technical wizards. Practice does have its place but it should serve the greater purpose!
This really resonates with me. I started playing late in life. 17 years old and I come a family of incredible musicians. This made it even tougher and I practiced 6-8 hours every singe day for the first 2 years. I did get very good in a short period of time, but my I think my sanity suffered a lot. I think we are all our own worst enemies at a time and we really need to show ourselves compassion and empathy. Great video my man. I just found you and keep doing what you are doing. You are helping a lot of people by sharing this information.
One of the greatest teachers on the net. I bought some of your courses and they are just better than years of studying with mediocre teachers!Thank you for sharing your precious knowledge! Keep on going!
This content is an important discussion. I experienced this dilemma as a member of a traveling sales team. I hung in there four and a half years. I won a few perks and I am grateful for the experience.
Great, simple, and crucial point of self-observation: Focus on making good music, more than YOU being a great musician - 👌
I think you did a very good job, capturing the essence of the dynamics of being an instrumentalist, regardless of genre.
I’m an engineer and I get the same feelings working the regular old 9-5 (though in my case, 7:30-5). I was always the “smart kid”, all through college. I recently started my first job, and I’d bet I’m one of the lowest performing employees - it’s hard to compete with people with years and years of experience, and I lack a lot of the “workplace skills” that seemingly come easily to others. Even if I know I’ll get there one day, it still sucks feeling like the one thing I’m good at isn’t good enough anymore. And I’d be lying if I said I didn’t go through some intense periods of self-loathing.
So thank you for talking about this. I feel seen.
This is actually amazing advice. One of the best lessons I learned
If you need/want to focus specifically on performance goals, one thing that can help is learning how to shift out of first person and into third person perspective. So along the lines of 'Let's see how Jeff is going to handle this' as opposed to 'I have to do better on this than I did yesterday'.
With sports, this also helped me a lot from a visualization standpoint. It gets you away from reaching for outcomes in the emotional realm and more into the currency of physical reality.
I think it's pretty hard for most people to really invest themselves in things and not see what they feel are good returns.
This is gold for me. Thank you.
Hey Jeff, That was me exactly. I am a piano player, until I was maybe 50 I didn't realize that it wasn't the piano I loved but the music that came from the piano. ie: making good music.I also discovered from studying with great mentors who practiced that 12-hour shift( u are correct). You have to have a passion to successfully do it or that will never happen, you won't get good enough at 6 hrs a day or it will take years. Beating yourself up over just not being good enough because you're just a mediocre doer, lazy, etc. The solution is to find what you love, you will without effort practice for a huge amount of hours, and never look back. I did 6hrs a day for a few years. It did land me in some national projects ( actually a great horn band from the SF Bay Area). but I couldn't care less. I love writing and being in the studio. Find your passion, This is your Dharma, and struggle should never accompany your efforts. This is a promise. Thank you for this brother.
I’m a pianist too. And trust me it depends on your talent and how efficient your practice schedule is and if you have a good teacher. I started at 8 hrs a day then 10, 12 finally 15-16 hrs a day until my hands would swell up. For me the sweet spot was 8.5 hrs a day. I became a virtuoso after that time period of 5 yrs. But I started as a young child and now it’s been 45 years!
Unfortunately, I agree six hours is normally not enough for the average person!
Well, as a smalltime producer, I think about any given song as a group of parts. Usually, The artist is the central piece as singer, writer, and pretty good instrumentalist. Usually, they play guitar or piano. For virtuoso parts, I have a list of hit-men and women to add 'touches' to the whole thing. ALL of the musicians on these projects grapple with the issues discussed here.
Thanks, Jeff, for helping to 'crystalize' these things.
I clicked on this expecting some cool statistics and info about the optimal time to spend practicing, and I am VERY glad I watched the whole thing because I got much more than I bargained for. This was extremely valuable, thank you for posting this.
This applies to every musicians and as a beginner/intermediate drummer, I feel this message a lot, thnak you so much Jeff
Just finished a show in the pit this evening and ran into this vid. I teach and play professionally… I get about 8hrs a day. If you, meaning anyone, hurt after extended playing I’d be checking technique. Also, you don’t always have to have axe in hand to ‘practice’. This is coming from one who has a Jazz Pedagogy undergrad and a Theory & Comp MA. Musicality isn’t all chops… there is a pile of listening involved as well.
As a drummer, who has recently taken up learning tenor sax, and here going off on a slight tangent, to lighten the mood, over the years I've met, and played along side, some seriously together musician's, most of them have been great people to work with, but, I've also met some seriously gifted musicians, studying 8 hours every day during their music school days, and beyond, who were completely devoid of any personality.🎶🎶🎷👍
It means your music teachers will finally be proud because you’re finally doing everything they recommended for you to do
Jeff, thank you so much for your words, wisdom and guidance. You closed a door that should have been closed years ago to that voice of the inner critic. I plan on misplacing that key for ever! And you re-opened the door of truly not tying my musical identity to my own self worth through reminding us of the different between "getting good at music" vs "making good music". I truly love making good music and your words helped to reframe this truth. Many thanks!
Also: it took me a very long time to understand that it's better to focus on quality rather than quantity, and doing so with a perspective of achieving a certain result - e.g. learning scales better, or chord changes, or whatever. I did a very intense period of practicing many hours a day at some point in my life, but I just established an arbitrary agenda without looking at which results I wanted to get (I just wanted to "get better", without any clear definition for what "better" actually meant).
If I were to study music again (which I haven't for many years - I transitioned to another area), I would only focus on which things I wanted to get better at, instead of "practicing for the sake of practicing".
Thanks, needed to hear this.
You got me in 6 minutes….im currently Reading Kenny Werner’s book on this to sort me out…..It takes time to find yourself as a musician after all this - you get caught up in all the stuff you have to master before you can play music in front of people again - but sadly that day never comes where you are satisfied with your abilities and music turns into a thing you spent your life on but can’t share with anyone… you have to enjoy what you do and the journey you are on.
fantastic video, you really highlighted what the goal of being a musician is.. simply making good music as to just crazy technical skills.
Being good at music or making good music- BINGO!
That’s the journey I’ve been on and I think it’s a much healthier perspective.
Thank you!!
Just from a practical perspective, part of getting good is listening. If you're practicing by yourself 12 hours a day you're probably not hearing enough of other people's music. But i agree with the broader points you're making.
Good point. My teacher has said that music is a language. And to get really good at speaking a language, you should really immerse yourself into the culture.
I might add that in addition to practicing, and listening, don't forget sometimes just play.
Making the shift from getting good at music to making good music was such an important thing for me. Focusing on myself always made me think way too much and try way too hard. Which is not a great mindset to have for making music, in my experience. Now, I usually just try to enjoy the music and do whatever feels right. Most people don't care about you being virtuosic anyway (not that I am, lol). They're here for the music and that should be your primary goal.
Of course, if you want to improve, you have to focus on getting good to some extent. In my practice routine, I try to include both: the hyper-critical part of me that obsesses over details, but also the part that just wants to hit some drums real loud.
This is brilliant, thank you! I completely agree with you, and though I did eventually come around to this same realisation, I'm embarrassed to say it took me several decades to figure out. But you've also said it far better than I would have done. I started playing guitar on my 7th b'day, and by the time I reached me teens, I was already practicing 8-10 hrs every day. A clear sign that something wasn't quite right is that I would feel I'd done well for that day if at least one finger was bleeding by the end of it. I mean, what kind of sick goal was that?! Unfortunately, it took me many years - and a several-years hiatus, during which I picked up the Renaissance lute and had to follow my lute teacher's unyielding instructions to 'Relax! This isn't weightlifting!' ('relax' is not a word I would have ever used in the same sentence as 'guitar' or 'practice') - to figure out that everything becomes easier (and more fun) when you let it happen, rather than try and force it to happen. And your wording, 'make good music', is pitch-perfect. Cheers!
Thelonius Monkowitz, always appreciate your wise words!
An interesting angle because that's how it is. Haven't thought about that before either but now that you said it, yes. There is a difference and the difference is precisely in how we define and judge ourselves. It really should always be - regardless of the art whether music or prose or something else - about the output, not about how good I'm at doing it. Because concentrating on technique and on my ability may well take away some of the quality and if it takes away quality, it may take away confidence too. I'm saying this as a writer but as someone who has been trying to learn to play piano too.
I would add something to the duality of making good music and to be good at music.
If you put your self in being good at any of those 2 things, and something or someone (yourself for example) makes you feel that it isn't good, it feels like if your whole person is being rejected, whether it is a piece you can't play quickly enough or a song of your own that sounds bad.
You do not become less attached to the songs you write, your value is not only in your playing but in those songs
This is so deeply appreciated Jeff! Deepest thanks!
Lot of respect for the sentiments you express here Jeff, it's (good) music that should be our highest goal not the being the musician.
There is a scientific paper called "Optimizing performance through intrinsic motivation and attention for learning: The OPTIMAL theory of motor learning" that, in part, talks about what you mention here. It's been a bit so this might not be the best summary, but whatever. Basically you want to focus on the task it's self, not your performance of the task. The wording you used in this video is doing just that, "Make good music" is putting the emphasis on the doing of the task. "Be good at music" is putting the focus on yourself, thusly removing attention from the task, causing worse performance, which makes you more self conscious, which removing attention from the task, causing worse performance, which makes you more self conscious, which goes on and on. The reverse can also happen. You do good leading to less self consciousness, leads to more focus on the task, yadda yadda, so on and so forth.
There's a lot more to it then just this. It's a interesting read, I recommend.
So much of music school is, intentional or not, about convincing students that "being good at music" is more important than "making good music". It's something I'm still trying to unlearn over a decade after graduation.
You slowly lose your mind as you gradually realize youre spiraling down a bottomless pit of endless self criticism and perfectionism that sucks all enjoyment out of music and consumes all your creative energy :D Well i can only talk from my own experience of course lololol
You're playing my tune man! 😂
Bravo, Jeff! This should be Video Lesson Number One for all student musicians who aspire to play music. And I say that having the least credibility to respond to this video as a musician, which I have recently become. I'm adult learner and taught myself how to play the horn. Only this year did I finally convince msyelf that I belong in the band in the third trumpet chair. Anyway, I had heard that story about Charlie Parker, and your comment that beyond four or five hours a day, music then becomes your identity. If you read Parker's biography, his was an awful life. And he rarely had good things to say about himself. I feed the birds and play the trumpet to them every day. I am always completely dumfounded that instead of flying away, they actually come to the bird feeder when I start my long tones. It's struck me that what they understand is that I am singing my song, which means everything is good and okay--there's no danger, the coast is clear, the world is all good because I am playing music. And that has been a whole new gift for me just to sit back and play all this wonderful music that's all written out in front of me, and to play it out with all the rest of the birds around me, humann or other species... Good or bad, great or mediocre, so long as its your best, that's all that matters.
Appreciate the message Jeff. Thank you! Landed with me as well.
So insightful! Thank you for assisting in this paradox we musicians face.
great video, really helps.
Thanks for posting this, it's something I and many others need to hear.
I work as a Java software developer, and the way I started getting into soft deveopment was just having like 10-11 hours of learning (watching video guides and stuff like that, practicing) a day. I did this for about a year in this wild manner. I had a gap year after school, and also moved to a new area where all the contacts with my old friends were pretty much lost. So I had nothing else to do, but I knew I had to make something of my life, get a profession at least. I had never been a good student at school, more like a hooligan or something although I had never been agressive, but when I was a teen, I started abusing alcohole and even some substances, nothing too heavy though. And there I was acting like a freaking nerd barely stepping foot out of my house being fully submerged into programming. I even did a channel on learning Java (this very one I'm writing from) although I myself only had a year of experience or so. But after a year of that passionate learning I got into learning English and did a similar thing with it, although a tiny bit less active. But it would still be 6-7 hours of daily practice. Then I went to college on a programming course and through the college I was again acting mostly like a dumb ass. By the end of it I honestly was about to give up and go work as a taxi driver or something. But I was lucky enough to be able to get my first job as a Java developer in an enterprise company and now I'm in my third company, have been working commercally for abt 4 years. And you know, every day, when there's a problem I cannot solve or have trouble solving, I feel like a piece of shit. Every time that I read about something that "every developer should know", I feel like a piece of shit coz I don't remember even hearing about it. Every time I think "Damn, I'm a developer, but my biggest knowelege about math seems to have stopped on the 5th grade" I feel like shit. Too lazy to go into learning that, but active enough to feel like shit. So yearh, I guess it does become part of your personality. Has nothing to do with music, but that's my experience of doing certain stuff intensely for a long period of time.
I started learning music to write some melodies for a game I was programming. One thing led to another and all these years later I am on the piano grinding away all day for no apparent reason other than my ear holes enjoy it. I think I am addicted. I work from home as a programmer and like a good addict I placed my drug of choice, the piano, directly in front of me so that I can interface with it all day. Now, if it only tendinitis and tension wasn't so damned painful I would be doing it now.
Resonated so much with this. Kenny Werner's book Effortless Mastery was a massive game changer for me in college and helped me start reforming my relationship with myself and my instrument!
Wondrful analysis on something before our eyes, that we often don't see
This was pretty insightful thanks for making this
Amazing video
So good. No one talks about this
I’ve been a Nurse for a long time. Enough time and varied experience to be considered a “professional” I didn’t get there overnight. The times when I felt the most growth was in those times that I’d consider focused quality “practice”. The amount of hours you do anything doesn’t always translate to improvement the same way quality time does. Quality time is the “thing”.
4:41 That's pure gold
When I was younger, I was so self-conscious about being judged that I never wanted anyone to hear me while I practiced/played. (Plus, it was so hard just to do scales.) I had the opportunity in my mother's house when she went to work to play the piano- for up to 8 hours. I simply loved to play for the sake of playing. When she retired after a couple of months, I stopped, even though she wanted me to play. But the main point I don't understand is why people simply just don't play because they love to.
I have noticed that I must stop and come back the next day to it. My teacher used to say the brain needs time to connect the neurons and so dont overplay.
Back and wrist pain
Practiced for 8 hours a day and this video rings true❤❤❤❤
You are wise beyond your years!
Thank you 🙏 for your advice ❤😊
The key takeaway from this video for me is the idea of focusing on being good at music (soloist mentality) versus making good music (band mentality). There is a distinction there, very true. I think I fluctuate between the two to be honest, it depends on scheduling and gig etc. and that alternating process has made me better overall.
Music is not just a physical activity...it requires mental focus..as well as the ability to instill emotion and meaning into the music...in order to make good music...it is not impossible to practice 12 hours a day...I think it is very rare to actually do 12 hours of continuous musical thinking and expression. In fact you can improve your playing by just playing in your mind...I will argue...if you can't do that..then you may not be in the right line of work!!..I am sure there are those who can...but I think they are rare...for those who can't do that the only measure is the physical one...which makes for good technical ability..but I don't think that is healthy..music can be a healthy practice..and should be..Charlie Parker was very gifted and talented...but you have to see if he lead a healthy and happy life if he didn't..well you figure it out
respect your work sport
This is so important... great way of looking at it. Cheers
this video was brilliant dude wow thank you
Very well said Jeff.
Great video man!! When you get to the point you are second to none! Thank you for this golden nugget! #respect!
Thank you for your comments. You may be aware that much of what you advise has been said by Kenny Werner as well. In my experience effective practice is a much more important goal than length of practice. Unfortunately for me, it took a lot of overly long, obsessive, self deprecating practice periods for me to realize that.
Great video as always Jeff!
You go insane
Good shit Jeff!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. That’s all true!
best video i have watched and learned by you. Respect and love, big influence on me.
i know my english sucks :-)
Related to your last point about making music vs "being good at it" -- I certainly admire and envy the chops and improvisational abilities of many accomplished Jazz players, but when all you do is "music" then there's no actual life that comes through it. There's so much syrupy, banal music by people with chops I'll never have, and music I adore from people whose chops will never reach mine but they bring real passion through it and make *art*.
I don't think it's a coincidence that many of my favorite artists are or were very interesting people
Sacrificing your life over being able to solo over changes… you can’t practice your way to greatness
Really interesting point of view ! Yes the psychological perspective is important in music too.
When deciding to take music seriously and trying to get into my dream music school, I practiced 60-70 hours a week on top of being in multiple bands, luckily my hard work paid off and I got in! I was very excited and felt like I was going to make it in life. First week there, I went through the band auditions and… was given last chair in the lowest band. It was simultaneously a wake up call and a huge demotivator. Here I was thinking I was all that and a bag of chips. I had gone from a place where I was beyond the best musician in my circle, to now being the worst, and I had placed all my bets on this dream. As you said, when you commit to music 100% and make it your life, your identity and self worth becomes attached to how well you play in that moment. And I had been shattered. I thought so much about giving up, and could hardly practice at all for a while. I would just sit in the practice room in silence, wondering what I was doing with my life.
Luckily I persevered, got my degree, and played professionally for many years. But I never truly got back that same level of motivation that I had before music school. I always wondered how my music career would have been different if I hadn’t lost that momentum. But, ultimately I think I ended up with a much happier life once I was able to let go of that dream of being the best and allowed other things to be important in my life, and didn’t attach all of my self worth to just music.
GREAT MESSAGE MAN SO TRUE THANK U SO MUCH IM A TENOR SAXOPHONE PLAYER. AND EVERYTHIG U SAID IS SO ON TARGET THANK U FOR SHARING THIS ALL THE BEST TO U MIKE
The message is inspiring, thank you for the vidoe
Very interesting topic. I did the 15 hrs a day in my early teens. Hardly attended school. Started gigging soon after a lot and the practice dropped off. I started realizing I was improving more by playing with others than at home alone.. now I just do maintenance” practice.
thank you for this
when I was 15/16 I would study about 7 or 8 hours, and I became fairly advanced, but not as much as I would expect
A topic that’s close to me. I do like the odd 8h day of practise, and then I find them enjoyable. I tried a week of 8h days, then I felt more problems with my body. I also know it took a couple of years before I could do longer days, at first my basic technique and stamina wasn’t good enough.
Charlie’s life was not good
This comparison issue is huge in all arts. You see another players strength as a reflection of your weakness. This comparison happens in sports a lot also. You identify with the activity that you are doing. Many young men base their identity on sports then they can’t play at the college level and they have a massive identity issue. This happens to musicians also.
Not 12 hours, but been practising many, many more hours than usual in an effort to "get good at it." But the progress is infinitesimally slow, however. No fast results even with all the tips I have found on UA-cam.
Valentina Lisitsa practises between 8 and 12 hours daily and she's arguably the best pianist of the 21 century ( Yunchan Lim being on his way there)
There isn't a way to avoid these kinds of feelings. Charlie Parker didn't practice 12 hours a day his whole life. He did it for as he said 3-4 years. Doing that over 3 years is around 13k hours of practice. That is what is needed as a minimum. But great musicians don't have to put in 12 hours every day after they have reached that kind of mastery. 3-4 is enough after Often just playing with people which isn't necessarily practice can be enough after that level of work. There are also unavoidable stages of development. Before you can make great music, you really do need to focus on being good at music. It's a developmental path. You can make good music without being great though, but if you want to be a virtuoso type of player you have to focus on being great at the instrument knowing the music is bad. It falls into place with time. Even playing 4 hours a day is enough to get your identity tied up with the instrument. There is no avoiding the identity thing. 99 percent of people drop out though, that is the difference. Of all of those great jazz players in school how many still dedicate themselves to playing at that level? 1 out of 100?
Valuable
What's your opinion on musicians who can't play their own compositions live or need 50 takes to stitch together one decent performance?
I think , just my thoughts. Early on practice as much as you can. Later in life you bring it into balance with evreyday life. Depends on what your goals are.
I have been playing guitar for about 50 years. I did the opposite. Never practiced more than an hour a day. My playing sucks.
A while back I picked a guitar (years without serious practicing) and decided to practice as much as I possibly could. We'll, couple days later I had developed tennis/guitar elbow and I needed to pack my guitar back to the case.
You should check out Kenny Werner and his book effortless mastery if you don't already know him (which would surprise me). He talks a lot about self criticism and self-worth assessment based on music performance.
Reminds me of reading about Steve Vai's 10 hour guitar workout.
Great video
Well said. 👏🏼
Truth!! ❤
Personally, I find three to five hours to be the sweet spot for practice. I can go a lot longer if it is just playing for fun or if I am in a creative groove, but proper practice I start to burn out at the 4 hour mark (of actual practice, not including break time). I can have days where I might practice seven hours and it just okay, but if I do that every day, I burn out big time.
you get good