Hi Saulius. I've read your blog post and the oxidation over time problem. My trick with homemade pcb is to paint it with "colofonia resin" diluted with isopropyl alcohol. It creates a fine layer of resin that protects copper from corrosion and also helps in the welding process. Thank you for your video and hope my trick helps you
THANK YOU FOR SHARING THOSE SOUNDS. Very interesting, especially the final passes, sounds like PCB FR4 getting burned the whole way through! Congratulations!
Hello could you please make a video step by step, I have a 50W laser I follow the configuration in the blog but dont mark enough to isolate the tracks. Thank you.
Insta subscribe. Thank you for this, and especially the full write up on your site. I've tried several times with very little success, either burning the FR4 to a crisp or not removing the copper with my 60W MOPA. I'll use your suggestions and give this experiment another go. Thank you again!
Thank you, Jim! It looks like larger power will be only useful for cutting PCB contour and for removing copper you have to go with low power settings. Especially for copper/FR4 transition. Please share the results when you have time to test.
Hi. This is my gold dream... my question is where the vaporized copper go? Could happen that form a conductive film around? Leading to undesirable contacts? Or is blowed by air? Kind regards.
By experience I know a carbonized PCB can conduct and cause some mayhem between copper layers and traces. With that in mind and seeing how it carves out the PCB edge makes me twitch a little. Although it should be fine if it's just a single layer board with the same copper plane around the edge. But it still makes me twitch.
Fantastic observation! This is the main issue and concern. Without extra measures (cleanup FR-4 with different laser settings), conductivity due to carbonization can be as bad as 100R. After cleanup, achieved 1M or better (for 0.2mm spacing)
I'm trying the same with a 50W Raycus Fiber and nothing happens.. it seems the copper layer is just too reflective, it has a bright "pink" appearance. Can't even get a scratch in at 90%, 20 kHz power/frequency settings :( Are there "special" boards one needs to het to be able to selectively laser etch a pcb like this
I guess anti-tracking slots can't be made because of the carbonizing effect of the PCB, as it might make it conductive from the burning. It's pretty awesome to see the PCB come alive before your eyes.
Hey, cool idea! I wonder is there some kind of a lifespan for 20W fiber laser? So lets say this small pcb took what 3mins to etch, so how much hours laser source/lense can withstand with such use, or is it basically infinite?
Hi Saulius, your presentation is very nice. I have a problem : I have a 20 watt fiber laser machine with a 240x240 lens. I cannot engrave pcb copper glows, reflects beam. How can I solve it?
Hello, I am new to this and this might be a stupid question, but can similar result be obtained with Snapmaker 2.0 with 10w laser (I think it is diode laser)
Awesome Saulius, and thanks for sharing this, by coincidence today i have tried a similar method but without good results because I can't achieve 4 mils between traces, there is always microscopic copper chips between them. I have 4 questions, :) what process is in 0:38, copper cleaning? what is the focal length of the F-theta lense? (or the size of the working area) why aren't you marking the contour of the traces (i see it disabled in the screenshots in your blog) Are you touching the z-axis between passes when cutting pcb? greets!!
Hi Euge. Quick answers: (1) lower laser power and make a few passes to clean loose copper. It will also clean FR4 fibers (2) Focal length is f=160mm (working area 110x110mm) (3) Some passes were done without contour mark (mostly high power ones). Reason is simple - laser removes contours faster and burns through copper sooner. (4) I tired adjusting z-axis a bit during contour cutout, but looks like it was not necessary.
@@Kurokesu thx for the quick response Saulius. I think that the 160 mm focal length is key here, because that lense make a smaller laser spot than mine (I have the 200x200 table) so I have more charring. Good to know that those low power passes clean fibers and copper . I appreciate this valuable info !!
@@Kurokesu Today I've got good results, yesterday I was working with a 75um copper clad by mistake. Today things went much better with the normal 35um board. In the test of the "spiral of death" www.delorie.com/pcb/spirals/ , a few 4 mil tracks have separated from the laminate because of the temperature I suppose , but it's a good success. The resolution of the laser galvos is astonishing. Now I'm goint to investigate drilling. greets
@@Kurokesu Hi , I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. I tried to do it by following the instructions like on your internet page, but I couldn't. I made a video, can you check it? Is there any place where I made a mistake? As in your documents, the Hatch button is not active. If it won't be a problem for you, can you prepare an application video on how to do it? drive.google.com/file/d/1SYGId7kQ1xi1EWj0Wv6Y1w2KSLEdRhSg/view?usp=sharing
Great video! I have some questions I hope you can help me with. Let's say the working area of the laser is 30cm x 30 cm, what size would be the maximum effective area to get a pcb done? Would it be equal to the working size? If not, would I need a special lense to to achieve that? I hope you don't mind all these questions but your video generated a lot of curiosity in me about this process. I'll be waiting for the updates on this on your blog. Thanks in advance.
Hi, I think PCB should be re-positioned and etched with laser block by block. Then PCB dimensions are theoretically unlimited. Positioning should be done with motorized translation table.
I have access to JPT 20w mopa laser. Precise copper removal is quite easy without burning the board. About 12 passes 1000mm/s 50khz 100% power 200ns. But when I try to cut FR1 or FR4 it seems impossible without seriously burning or setting it on fire. I can't seem to figure out what method you are doing at @1:04 to cut.
Hi Ramon, please check blog post with more details. You should find pulse/power settings. Can your laser can't burn through copper on 100% power and 20kHz settings?
Хорошо видно, что верхний слой меди снимается, дорожки тоньше становятся, не смертельно, но факт)) А так, это круто, лучше чем ЛУТ или фоторезист, чпу тоже норм, но все же ЛУТ мне дешевле и быстрее выходит.
So cool! I had thought of using UV laser to expose dry film photoresist but fiber lasers are usually IR. But anyway your method needs none of the chemical for developing and etching. I guess the laser etched copper surface also binds stronger to solder mask? Probably worth a study about it.
Cool but the biggest problem is you can't make multi layer PCB with laser, but this method should be able to spit out a lot of prototype PCB and fast...
Hello,Sorry about my bad English.Im new to pcb hobby making.So far i making boards with cnc router but is hard to have trace etching with vbits and pyramid bit(the 0.02 endmill break in my hand) because of Z accuracy.I want to buy a fiber laser for pcb etching traces only.No drills.I see a lot on the internet.My budget is around 3-3.5k Euro.Is there anyone use Fiber laser for that job?What do you suggesting me to buy?20-30-50w?Jpt - Raycus - Max?Mopa or Not?Desktop or seperate unit? RC1001 or SG7110 head?Workarea Lenses?Im interested up to 80x120mm diamensions boards.Thanks in advance.
Hi, you can use fiber laser to etch photo resist, but actually etch copper with 1064nm laser is tricky because of the charring. If you are trying to save money, 20W will be enough.
@@Kurokesu Sorry about my stupid questions. Im new to these laser. I dont want to get with chemical. Im trying to avoid them. So with a cheap 20w laser will be ok for etching? If i try instead of marking trying to cut vector offsets of the part i dont want will be better? Also brands,Mopas or not,heads,working areas is make any difference? What is the best bet for you for pcb etching? Thank you for your time.
@@Kurokesu thanks for your reply. The work rapid prototyping creates a buzz in my brain that says, not scalable! is it true in the current context? I am thinking of investing in PCB business so I am curious about all these things. please let me know your thoughts on this. also what is the estimated cost of this system, any idea? thanks
It's useless for anything except simple, low voltage digital circuits. Pre-carbonizing the laminate is asking for trouble. It will arc over with higher voltage(mains is out of the question). Also any high impedance circuit will not work. Carbon is conductive, if a part of the pcb ever gets burned, you remove the carbonized material, ALL OF IT. You would need additional post processing, maybe medium blasting to remove carbonized FR4, otherwise be warned that this method has severe limitations and safety concerns.
Thank you for your insights! You are absolutely correct. But this opens quite new possibilities for high-density PCB manufacturing. For example, you can etch 80% of copper with a laser without touching FR-4 and finish with regular acid. There will be no fiddling with photoresist chemistry.
@@Kurokesu I thought about using media blasting for example baking soda in a simple sandblasting gun to get rid of charred material. FR4 is softer than copper so maybe even a wirebrush with brass bristles could work? Sadly I have no access to a similar laser, so can't test this myself. You could try the chemical method but from my experience it is not uniform enough to work without resist. I think a mechanical removal is the best bet.
@@djtransnazgrz yet another way to do this is by using a UV laser, it does not penetrate FR4 as deep as a 1064nm laser, thus making it easier to control cut quality.
I don't think this is very practical, if you want cheap and dont care about waiting long you go to JLCPCB, if you want quick you etch at home and if you want quick but complex pcb at home you might as well use a tabletop CNC.
@@lonniehowell2360 have you read my blog post with much more details? www.kurokesu.com/main/2021/01/07/making-fine-pitch-pcb-prototypes-with-fiber-laser/
this is a horrible idea, the carbonized fiberglas gets conductive, if you manage to remove the carbonized fiberglass, it may be an idea, but it all has to be removed.
This is nonsense! These boards are gravy to make using ordinary photo etch type methods. And don't take expensive laser systems! I don't understand why you don't use the common well documented and used etching tech that is used throughout industry.
Hi Saulius.
I've read your blog post and the oxidation over time problem. My trick with homemade pcb is to paint it with "colofonia resin" diluted with isopropyl alcohol. It creates a fine layer of resin that protects copper from corrosion and also helps in the welding process. Thank you for your video and hope my trick helps you
THANK YOU FOR SHARING THOSE SOUNDS. Very interesting, especially the final passes, sounds like PCB FR4 getting burned the whole way through! Congratulations!
Glad you liked Jimmy!
Your article on this is inspiring
No way! That is so cool!
cannot wait to try, my laser is 30W thus need to adjust the power % i guess. Thanks for the tutorial, really great! and i like Flatcam, great tip!
Very cool. I suppose the issue is getting plated vias/through-holes. That is the limiting factor of the Voltera as well, which uses rivets.
Hello could you please make a video step by step, I have a 50W laser I follow the configuration in the blog but dont mark enough to isolate the tracks.
Thank you.
Cool stuff, here to make it cooler 😎
Great stuff
Insta subscribe. Thank you for this, and especially the full write up on your site. I've tried several times with very little success, either burning the FR4 to a crisp or not removing the copper with my 60W MOPA. I'll use your suggestions and give this experiment another go. Thank you again!
Thank you, Jim! It looks like larger power will be only useful for cutting PCB contour and for removing copper you have to go with low power settings. Especially for copper/FR4 transition. Please share the results when you have time to test.
Nice!!!
👌
What machine is It ? Send link of machine laser
How do you make vias?
Hi. This is my gold dream... my question is where the vaporized copper go? Could happen that form a conductive film around? Leading to undesirable contacts? Or is blowed by air? Kind regards.
Wow awesome
By experience I know a carbonized PCB can conduct and cause some mayhem between copper layers and traces.
With that in mind and seeing how it carves out the PCB edge makes me twitch a little. Although it should be fine if it's just a single layer board with the same copper plane around the edge. But it still makes me twitch.
Fantastic observation! This is the main issue and concern. Without extra measures (cleanup FR-4 with different laser settings), conductivity due to carbonization can be as bad as 100R. After cleanup, achieved 1M or better (for 0.2mm spacing)
lazer kaç wat acaba
I'm trying the same with a 50W Raycus Fiber and nothing happens.. it seems the copper layer is just too reflective, it has a bright "pink" appearance. Can't even get a scratch in at 90%, 20 kHz power/frequency settings :(
Are there "special" boards one needs to het to be able to selectively laser etch a pcb like this
That's strange. Copper is not a problem for 1064nm wavelength laser. On the other hand CO2 laser is reflected.
I guess anti-tracking slots can't be made because of the carbonizing effect of the PCB, as it might make it conductive from the burning. It's pretty awesome to see the PCB come alive before your eyes.
Cut FR-4 edges are damaged the most. Easy to clean carbonization with sandpaper, though.
Cut slots!
Hey, cool idea! I wonder is there some kind of a lifespan for 20W fiber laser? So lets say this small pcb took what 3mins to etch, so how much hours laser source/lense can withstand with such use, or is it basically infinite?
Chinese manufacturer says lifetime is 100000h, but that's way over-rated number
Wow 👏👏👏👏👍👍👍👍👍
What are the type (CO2 or diode) and power of the laser? Was PCB workable and with required continuity? Thanks
Hi IvanZ, please read the blog page (see description). You will find a lot of useful info there.
Hi Saulius, your presentation is very nice.
I have a problem : I have a 20 watt fiber laser machine with a 240x240 lens.
I cannot engrave pcb copper glows, reflects beam.
How can I solve it?
Hi, I am guessing maybe power is too low? Mind sharing pictures/video?
240 lens has low power density. try 100x100 (~160mm FL) lens.
Hello, I am new to this and this might be a stupid question, but can similar result be obtained with Snapmaker 2.0 with 10w laser (I think it is diode laser)
No.
Awesome Saulius, and thanks for sharing this,
by coincidence today i have tried a similar method but without good results because I can't achieve 4 mils between traces, there is always microscopic copper chips between them. I have 4 questions, :)
what process is in 0:38, copper cleaning?
what is the focal length of the F-theta lense? (or the size of the working area)
why aren't you marking the contour of the traces (i see it disabled in the screenshots in your blog)
Are you touching the z-axis between passes when cutting pcb?
greets!!
Hi Euge. Quick answers: (1) lower laser power and make a few passes to clean loose copper. It will also clean FR4 fibers (2) Focal length is f=160mm (working area 110x110mm) (3) Some passes were done without contour mark (mostly high power ones). Reason is simple - laser removes contours faster and burns through copper sooner. (4) I tired adjusting z-axis a bit during contour cutout, but looks like it was not necessary.
@@Kurokesu thx for the quick response Saulius.
I think that the 160 mm focal length is key here, because that lense make a smaller laser spot than mine (I have the 200x200 table) so I have more charring. Good to know that those low power passes clean fibers and copper .
I appreciate this valuable info !!
@@eid0eid0 If you get too much burnt FR4 material, it means energy density is too high and besides of evaporating material it heats up (hence burns).
@@Kurokesu Today I've got good results, yesterday I was working with a 75um copper clad by mistake. Today things went much better with the normal 35um board.
In the test of the "spiral of death" www.delorie.com/pcb/spirals/ , a few 4 mil tracks have separated from the laminate because of the temperature I suppose , but it's a good success. The resolution of the laser galvos is astonishing.
Now I'm goint to investigate drilling.
greets
@@eid0eid0 awesome! Glad it worked!
Name of machine please
Hi,
I couldn't transfer the PCB to EZCAD. Could you please explain how you transferred the PCB from Flatcam to EZCAD as a video?
Hi Mustafa, please read the blog post in the description
@@Kurokesu
Hi ,
I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. I tried to do it by following the instructions like on your internet page, but I couldn't. I made a video, can you check it? Is there any place where I made a mistake? As in your documents, the Hatch button is not active.
If it won't be a problem for you, can you prepare an application video on how to do it?
drive.google.com/file/d/1SYGId7kQ1xi1EWj0Wv6Y1w2KSLEdRhSg/view?usp=sharing
very nice idea for PCB manufacture.
Great video! I have some questions I hope you can help me with. Let's say the working area of the laser is 30cm x 30 cm, what size would be the maximum effective area to get a pcb done? Would it be equal to the working size? If not, would I need a special lense to to achieve that? I hope you don't mind all these questions but your video generated a lot of curiosity in me about this process. I'll be waiting for the updates on this on your blog. Thanks in advance.
Hi, I think PCB should be re-positioned and etched with laser block by block. Then PCB dimensions are theoretically unlimited. Positioning should be done with motorized translation table.
could you show me an example laser system?
Sure: www.google.com/search?q=20w+fiber+laser+marking+machine&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X
I have access to JPT 20w mopa laser. Precise copper removal is quite easy without burning the board. About 12 passes 1000mm/s 50khz 100% power 200ns. But when I try to cut FR1 or FR4 it seems impossible without seriously burning or setting it on fire. I can't seem to figure out what method you are doing at @1:04 to cut.
1:04 - contour cutting. Used wobble setting and fast motion. This way laser cuts wider slot and FR4 does not burn like crazy.
@@Kurokesu what are your speed/power/wobble settings?
@@TMS5100 Please check www.kurokesu.com/main/2021/01/07/making-fine-pitch-pcb-prototypes-with-fiber-laser/ "Cut PCB contour section"
Ola! Me ajude. Tenho uma fiber de 30watss mas nao concigo corroer o cobre. Qual segredo que vc concegui?
Hi Ramon, please check blog post with more details. You should find pulse/power settings. Can your laser can't burn through copper on 100% power and 20kHz settings?
Is it additive or substractive manufacturing? I believe substractive, correct?
Laser evaporates copper
Хорошо видно, что верхний слой меди снимается, дорожки тоньше становятся, не смертельно, но факт)) А так, это круто, лучше чем ЛУТ или фоторезист, чпу тоже норм, но все же ЛУТ мне дешевле и быстрее выходит.
Думаю запах там,особенно при резке ужасный. Его потом ни чем не выветришь. Лучше все таки фрейзер, ну и да старый добрый ЛУТ.
So cool! I had thought of using UV laser to expose dry film photoresist but fiber lasers are usually IR. But anyway your method needs none of the chemical for developing and etching. I guess the laser etched copper surface also binds stronger to solder mask? Probably worth a study about it.
Actually, removing a UV mask with a laser is not such a bad idea. It will take longer, but there will be no issues with the burnt FR-4 core.
is the copper being burnt in the process?
Yes, please the blog post. Link in the description.
sweeet!
Imagine if I had this 30 years ago...
Photolithography in ic ?
Direct copper removing
Cool but the biggest problem is you can't make multi layer PCB with laser, but this method should be able to spit out a lot of prototype PCB and fast...
Trust me, you don't want to mess with multilayer PCS's at home :)
Hello,Sorry about my bad English.Im new to pcb hobby making.So far i making boards with cnc router but is hard to have trace etching with vbits and pyramid bit(the 0.02 endmill break in my hand) because of Z accuracy.I want to buy a fiber laser for pcb etching traces only.No drills.I see a lot on the internet.My budget is around 3-3.5k Euro.Is there anyone use Fiber laser for that job?What do you suggesting me to buy?20-30-50w?Jpt - Raycus - Max?Mopa or Not?Desktop or seperate unit? RC1001 or SG7110 head?Workarea Lenses?Im interested up to 80x120mm diamensions boards.Thanks in advance.
Hi, you can use fiber laser to etch photo resist, but actually etch copper with 1064nm laser is tricky because of the charring. If you are trying to save money, 20W will be enough.
@@Kurokesu Sorry about my stupid questions. Im new to these laser. I dont want to get with chemical. Im trying to avoid them. So with a cheap 20w laser will be ok for etching? If i try instead of marking trying to cut vector offsets of the part i dont want will be better? Also brands,Mopas or not,heads,working areas is make any difference? What is the best bet for you for pcb etching? Thank you for your time.
@@fender0stratocaster you need different kind of laser. 1064nm fiber laser is ok for some PCB experiments, but not good for PCB making directly
@@Kurokesu Could you please suggest me what machines to look to?Thanks again.
@@fender0stratocaster Try to check LPKF laser machine and read a bit more what they use
Where to buy fiber laser
At your local laser store :) Or Aliexpress
What kind of fiber laser is that? Is it a 20 watt fiber laser? What is the smallest lines and pitch can you achieve nicely?
Yes, it is 20W fiber laser (at least was 4 ears ago). 0.07mm track separation can be done without big problems.
@@Kurokesu Thanks for the helpful reply. Are you still using this fiber machine?
@@sto2779 Sure, I do!
@@Kurokesu what is the exact model supplier \ store? Thanks
@@IAmTheVector I bought it quite a while ago. The exact model and manufacturer is not important now. Just search for 20/30/50W fiber laser.
Carbon isolator (PCB CORE) :)
Wat a power of that co2?
It's pulsed 20W Fiber laser 1064nm (not CO2 - 10600nm)
@@Kurokesu price ?
@@andreylapshov5716 I think you can get one for $1-2k now
Expensive laser machines and slow for mass manufacturing. But good for r&d and prototypes.
Exactly, this is interesting for rapid prototyping.
Интересно сколько ват лазер и какие программы и чпу какой ?
ECB, Eroded Circuit Board... 😀
Уголь пропускает ток.
Of course. Read the comments.
No information on the laser. At the very least wavelength would have been nice.
Please read the blog post!
i bet it smells lovely in there.
Can you smell it over YT :)
Выглядит красиво, но законы физики еще никто не отменял, уголь - проводник, именно он образовывается во время выживания лазером.
ну да, видимо уголь от сгорания древесины тоже проводник электричества? ))
Hello is this the future of PCB
Well, let's say this is the present of high-end rapid PCB prototyping.
@@Kurokesu thanks for your reply. The work rapid prototyping creates a buzz in my brain that says, not scalable! is it true in the current context? I am thinking of investing in PCB business so I am curious about all these things. please let me know your thoughts on this. also what is the estimated cost of this system, any idea? thanks
@@energylabs813 Take a look at these guys: www.lpkf.com/en/ if equipment pricing will not scare you, then I say go ahead.
It's useless for anything except simple, low voltage digital circuits. Pre-carbonizing the laminate is asking for trouble. It will arc over with higher voltage(mains is out of the question). Also any high impedance circuit will not work. Carbon is conductive, if a part of the pcb ever gets burned, you remove the carbonized material, ALL OF IT. You would need additional post processing, maybe medium blasting to remove carbonized FR4, otherwise be warned that this method has severe limitations and safety concerns.
Thank you for your insights! You are absolutely correct. But this opens quite new possibilities for high-density PCB manufacturing. For example, you can etch 80% of copper with a laser without touching FR-4 and finish with regular acid. There will be no fiddling with photoresist chemistry.
@@Kurokesu I thought about using media blasting for example baking soda in a simple sandblasting gun to get rid of charred material. FR4 is softer than copper so maybe even a wirebrush with brass bristles could work? Sadly I have no access to a similar laser, so can't test this myself. You could try the chemical method but from my experience it is not uniform enough to work without resist. I think a mechanical removal is the best bet.
@@djtransnazgrz yet another way to do this is by using a UV laser, it does not penetrate FR4 as deep as a 1064nm laser, thus making it easier to control cut quality.
I don't think this is very practical, if you want cheap and dont care about waiting long you go to JLCPCB, if you want quick you etch at home and if you want quick but complex pcb at home you might as well use a tabletop CNC.
You don't have to replace worn out tolls bits for a laser :)
Better video of this process with instructions:
ua-cam.com/video/CU7iKe2trIw/v-deo.html
Lonnie, you can nit pick good points from both videos
@@Kurokesu No, one contains instruction and is helpful, the other contains no helpful information whatsoever
@@lonniehowell2360 have you read my blog post with much more details? www.kurokesu.com/main/2021/01/07/making-fine-pitch-pcb-prototypes-with-fiber-laser/
this is a horrible idea, the carbonized fiberglas gets conductive, if you manage to remove the carbonized fiberglass, it may be an idea, but it all has to be removed.
Yes, this is big issue. Please read the comments for more insights.
This is nonsense! These boards are gravy to make using ordinary photo etch type methods. And don't take expensive laser systems! I don't understand why you don't use the common well documented and used etching tech that is used throughout industry.
You are a hater