Good experiment. I think we all knew that raising your antenna up will give you gains. But... to actually see the gains you actually get is very interesting. Thanks for the video!
Cal I am a new subscriber, I am loving all the content and look forward to seeing what your new channel brings! You are just about the only ham operator I can watch on youtube that doesn’t put me to sleep! Keep up the great work!
I just got into 2 meters and repeaters a few months ago. Rather than build an antenna like I normally do, I bought an inexpensive Diamond CP22E. The only poles I had lying around was the old-style chain link top rails (by old style, I mean when they used to come in 20-foot lengths instead of 10). So right off the bat, I started out at 20 feet of antenna height. Now, I don't know what the locals near me run, but most were surprised that this VHF newbie was opening repeaters / full quieting at over twice the distances they were. A couple even stopped by to see for themselves. Apparently, a lot of people have their antennas at close to single-story roof height, and they don't have the unobstructed yard space that I have (I have almost a half acre in-town, so my antennas have some distance away from neighboring buildings). Just as a trial, we lowered the antenna by four feet to simulate other people's average heights, and... I lost quite a bit of distance. FOUR FEET!
On a 50' height above my hill, on 2M I get almost 16 repeaters (one depends on conditions) and I am full quieting into 15 repeaters. I run a barefoot FT-290R MK2 and its range is about 100 miles with no propagation. 2M SSB can run the Gulf of Mexico from Applachicola, FL to Galveston, TX depending on conditions. Back in the 90's, I made it into Wales (GW3EWQ I think) on 6 Meters, but haven't done it since then. We do get powerful leading edge storm propagation occasionally, so I plan to try on both 2M and 6M (FT-690R MK 2) at the same time and see if it works! 73 de W4FJF.
Your picture quality inproves. That's what happens when you raise your tv antenna up higher. It works best on line of sight especially the digital tv transmissions that are being used today.
So glad you can post this again. This is my dream field day setup, but with an easy to assemble beam or nice long dipole inverted v. I think it would be great fun!
A new subscriber here from the States(East Tn.). Like watching your informative videos Cal. Licensed over 30 yrs. Not the most knowledgeable. Glad there's a UA-cam Elmer. Lol
Interesting test, Thanks! Something to consider: the US Military did a study on the attenuation of foliage in RF communications several years back. I can't find it now but it was impressive as to how much attenuation you have when your below the tree tops, especially at vhf and higher frequencies. So something to consider when elevating a 2m or higher frequency antenna it to try to get it above the tree line for your area. A few years ago i was able to put a cheap dual band antenna sticking out the top of a 70+ foot tree (a bit higher than the average tree line) and could consistently get into a repeater in Nashville TN, about 100 air miles away, on 2m with low power (5w). At 2m and above. antenna height beats antenna gain as long as your using decent coax. Keep up the good work! 73 mike N4ONL
I love this, I am about to make my own tower from 70mm box and 50mm box section. I already live in top of a hill in Kidderminster, but aiming to get to 10+ meters AGL, and mounting my X700, X50 and F1230 23cm verticals on it.
Hi Cal, nice test, I like those experiments. In fact I did the same on HF rising the feed point of a dipole antenna from down the roof level up to a 7meter pole. Harder to appreciate though because of continuous fading on those frequencies but you can still appreciate the increment. One thing to mention is the Kenwood’s meter has a totally different sensitivity on FM. So to be more clear between 0 and full scale 9+60 it’ll rise very quickly. To see the things like we’re use to in HF put the radio on AM and do the test again. You’ll see the difference. Maybe you already know all this. Cheers and keep up the good work on your channel. Fingers crossed for your old one. Have subscribed to this too.
Good video as always Callum, as you know 'height is might', my local repeater is 59+ and is 175Km away, then again its up in the French Pyrénnés mountain range at 1400m ASL !!!!
Hi Callum, Used to follow you before. Now I'm subscribed. Shame on YT for what they did but.... as a phoenix you'll raise form the ashes ;) I have to say: you are a huge inspiration (some say you're the Bob Ross of Ham Radio) Been a Ham Radio/CB fan for a while and had my interactions with the radio community for a while (mostly CB) Was a pirate on 2m band before..... shame on me.... I know .... :( Anyway Just studying to hopefully get my Ham Radio license soon and you, my good sir, have been one of my elmers. Good work and thank you All the best and 73s from a Portuguese guy in Ireland
Just added you to my favorites. Novice technician in Missouri also using a Kenwood TS2000. Working on my general. Would love a DX Commander familiarization video on the older radio. KF0DML
Really hammers home the point. I'd already seen a huge improvment with my vertical on the upper HF bands when I stuck it on a 40ft pole, but for various reasons I can't put a VHF antenna on it, too. I've been using a VHF Yagi in the loft (the roof is not slate or metal, but fibre tiles) and was getting OK results from the nearest repeater, but it's gradually got worse over the past few months. Rx is totally fine, though. I'll simply have to get another pole up and stick the Yagi on it.
i wonder if a yagi would've hit those 3 repeaters? I run a J-pole atop my roof which puts it about 35' above ground level. I can hit repeaters 35-50 miles away. The next closest machine is 75 miles, which I can touch now and again. Fun times!!!
Hi Callum Interesting experiment and an interesting initial conclusion / result re the 9 meter sweet spot. I don't have anything near as impressive as you hydraulic tower. I'm just using a telescopic aluminum pole for my VHF / UHF antenna. Because of the recent windy weather, I drooped it down a section, and certainly noticed a difference with the local repeaters! Hence my interest with your experiment. What perhaps might be good, would be to repeat this experiment from a couple of different locations, say one that's low down and and poor for VHF / UHF, then one that's really high and good for VHF / UHF. This would confirm if there is in fact a 9 meter sweet spot. Regards, David (M0XQZ)
@@DXCommanderHQ Yes, it would be good to experiment going higher. - I think that possibly you would find, above a certain height, although there would be an improvement, it would be very small per meter of extra height. And that up to a 'height sweet spot' , you would get plenty of bang per meter. I don't mean to hijack your experiment, but I was thinking of this spring / summer, trying something with a telescopic fiberglass pole in various locations; where I live, which is in a bit of a bowl, a trig point and at the beach.
Interesting test. I find VHF a bit frustrating, despite my aerial being 30 feet high (above the chimney) I don’t have much luck with repeaters. Presuming it’s because I have some higher commercial buildings around me. It’s a small colinear and I have considered something like a CP-22E to see if that extra bit makes any difference without spending a lot more money for no return. Thanks for the videos Callum 👍🏼
Hi there.. like the experiment. Couldn't help notice the effect of the metal building and wether the results would have changed that much say a few hundred yards clear if the structure. Interesting though.
Clapping will help with sync ups if you accidentally hit stop. The spike in audio in your video will line up nicely of your video editor of choice. Count your clap number so you can keep track.
What about comparing an electrically short antenna (eg 1/4 wave) high up with an electrically long antenna (eg 2x5/8) at a lower level but where the tops of both antennas are at the same height - just to see whether antenna height gain or rf/electrical gain is the most important. I bet the results would be very similar....
Hello I have your DX Commander. Would it help lowering noise by raising it up 10 20 30 feet??? ( to de above emissions from houses and such?) Love th DX. You gave me the power to do what I want with the antenna. Thank you.
I don't think so.. If you do the modelling, the pattern will hardly change. Use a dedicated RX antenna instead. I'll be doing a video about that shortly.
I found that with a J-pole antenna positioned at 9 meters I could reach the Bay City, MI repeater full-quieting on FM from 64 kilometers away. Of course, the Bay City repeater is positioned just below the top of a 305 meter tower, which may affect the results of the experiment. And while I did not do the test in the rain, my shoe did fall off when I was at the top of my tower mounting the J-pole, and I had to climb down the tower while wearing only one shoe, not the most pleasant experience. :)
Yes, the length of the pole certainly makes a difference. However your method of recording signal strength could be confusing. How would you record a signal that was 5dB over S9?
Personally I would look at a) Diamond V2000 for a lovely pancake gain figure and if you can forgive the height and length, the DIamond X510 is an absolute MONSTER with an even flatter pancake and extra 3dB to effectively double your transmit and receive over the V2000. I have a few V2000s and have a couple X510s too. X510 every time!
Nice, would have been better if you had the distances of the repeaters you are trying to access. Not everyone knows where you are in comparison to the repeaters, unless this content is for England alone.
I don't know how do your videos appear to me exactly with the right info for what I'm about to do. And I didn't even searched for this... but I was just wondering how high I should put my vertical dipole for 2m / 70cm. I hope Google can't read my mind... they would be horrified hahaha. 73 .. nice experiment. I'll volunteer next time )))
ANd This Is Why I Try To Put All My Antennas on My Third Floor Or Higher With Fishing Poles And Stuff. I Live In MINUS 2 Meters From Sea Level So I Need To Get Them High Or Else They Do Nothing, I Cant get 1000Meters For 446 Mhz Even, Sad !
Next weekend, I'm going to clamp an old Chameleon to our 2.5m tall wooden timber pergola... 🦎 ... If he survives, I'll clamp my MPAS as well, and see if i get a better signal... 😂 I guess all the radials will also have to be raised by 6ft... 🤔 ... I've heard they need to be angled down about 30 degrees away from the antenna?
I know it been a while since you did this experiment… bringing the lift back down 6 or 8 meters and adding a fixed staging pole would allow for another set of 1 meter steps… above the set you measured… Not that there is much discussion… more height = better
Interesting love watching you and ring way Manchester M6JYP Used to live near you I moved to Eastbourne which is a far more interesting place for radio
Good experiment. I think we all knew that raising your antenna up will give you gains. But... to actually see the gains you actually get is very interesting. Thanks for the video!
Yes, that was fun.
I clicked like, just for the effort 👍. well done.
Legend!
Cal I am a new subscriber, I am loving all the content and look forward to seeing what your new channel brings! You are just about the only ham operator I can watch on youtube that doesn’t put me to sleep! Keep up the great work!
Awesome! Thank you Ryan!
I just got into 2 meters and repeaters a few months ago. Rather than build an antenna like I normally do, I bought an inexpensive Diamond CP22E. The only poles I had lying around was the old-style chain link top rails (by old style, I mean when they used to come in 20-foot lengths instead of 10). So right off the bat, I started out at 20 feet of antenna height. Now, I don't know what the locals near me run, but most were surprised that this VHF newbie was opening repeaters / full quieting at over twice the distances they were. A couple even stopped by to see for themselves. Apparently, a lot of people have their antennas at close to single-story roof height, and they don't have the unobstructed yard space that I have (I have almost a half acre in-town, so my antennas have some distance away from neighboring buildings). Just as a trial, we lowered the antenna by four feet to simulate other people's average heights, and... I lost quite a bit of distance. FOUR FEET!
Yeah, you can not beat a bit of hieght with VHF!
On a 50' height above my hill, on 2M I get almost 16 repeaters (one depends on conditions) and I am full quieting into 15 repeaters. I run a barefoot FT-290R MK2 and its range is about 100 miles with no propagation. 2M SSB can run the Gulf of Mexico from Applachicola, FL to Galveston, TX depending on conditions. Back in the 90's, I made it into Wales (GW3EWQ I think) on 6 Meters, but haven't done it since then. We do get powerful leading edge storm propagation occasionally, so I plan to try on both 2M and 6M (FT-690R MK 2) at the same time and see if it works! 73 de W4FJF.
Great!
Useful experiment. This video is the reason why I mounted my X-700 on the chimney at about 35ft.
x-700.. I seem to remembr is a big beast!
@@DXCommanderHQ 7.2m long with an alleged 9.3db on 2m and 13.0db on 70cm!
It is like being right there in the Shack with you!! Wow!! Neat, Callum!! Thank you for the fun!!
Woo-Hoo!
Your picture quality inproves. That's what happens when you raise your tv antenna up higher. It works best on line of sight especially the digital tv transmissions that are being used today.
Yes that's right.. The better the signal, the better picture and everything.. Good observation.
So glad you can post this again. This is my dream field day setup, but with an easy to assemble beam or nice long dipole inverted v. I think it would be great fun!
Glad you like it!
A new subscriber here from the States(East Tn.). Like watching your informative videos Cal. Licensed over 30 yrs. Not the most knowledgeable. Glad there's a UA-cam Elmer. Lol
I'm a hands-on fella. Nice to have you along!
Great Video! Loved the experiment. Please do more videos on vhf/uhf content. New subscriber here. 73s from the states de N3RBG
Interesting test, Thanks! Something to consider: the US Military did a study on the attenuation of foliage in RF communications several years back. I can't find it now but it was impressive as to how much attenuation you have when your below the tree tops, especially at vhf and higher frequencies. So something to consider when elevating a 2m or higher frequency antenna it to try to get it above the tree line for your area. A few years ago i was able to put a cheap dual band antenna sticking out the top of a 70+ foot tree (a bit higher than the average tree line) and could consistently get into a repeater in Nashville TN, about 100 air miles away, on 2m with low power (5w).
At 2m and above. antenna height beats antenna gain as long as your using decent coax.
Keep up the good work! 73 mike N4ONL
Yes.. Both trees *AND* height.. Just the height works too :)
I love this, I am about to make my own tower from 70mm box and 50mm box section. I already live in top of a hill in Kidderminster, but aiming to get to 10+ meters AGL, and mounting my X700, X50 and F1230 23cm verticals on it.
Hi Cal, nice test, I like those experiments. In fact I did the same on HF rising the feed point of a dipole antenna from down the roof level up to a 7meter pole. Harder to appreciate though because of continuous fading on those frequencies but you can still appreciate the increment.
One thing to mention is the Kenwood’s meter has a totally different sensitivity on FM. So to be more clear between 0 and full scale 9+60 it’ll rise very quickly. To see the things like we’re use to in HF put the radio on AM and do the test again. You’ll see the difference.
Maybe you already know all this.
Cheers and keep up the good work on your channel. Fingers crossed for your old one. Have subscribed to this too.
Yes very cool..appreciate the FM sensitivity. Interesting. Well done on your dipole experiment!
VHF Commander yagi's, I would buy one.
Good video as always Callum, as you know 'height is might', my local repeater is 59+ and is 175Km away, then again its up in the French Pyrénnés mountain range at 1400m ASL !!!!
Woah!
Interesting.... thanks for the video Cal
Thanks very much for the hard work you put in to making this video! Very interesting and informative. Best wishes from France.
Rich.
Many thanks!
Hi Callum,
Used to follow you before.
Now I'm subscribed.
Shame on YT for what they did but.... as a phoenix you'll raise form the ashes ;)
I have to say: you are a huge inspiration (some say you're the Bob Ross of Ham Radio)
Been a Ham Radio/CB fan for a while and had my interactions with the radio community for a while (mostly CB)
Was a pirate on 2m band before..... shame on me.... I know .... :(
Anyway
Just studying to hopefully get my Ham Radio license soon and you, my good sir, have been one of my elmers.
Good work and thank you
All the best and 73s from a Portuguese guy in Ireland
Good work!
Haven't delved into VHF for quite some time now. Might have a go at some EME.
73.
Just added you to my favorites. Novice technician in Missouri also using a Kenwood TS2000. Working on my general. Would love a DX Commander familiarization video on the older radio. KF0DML
Any radio will work with a DXC, no worries!
Really hammers home the point.
I'd already seen a huge improvment with my vertical on the upper HF bands when I stuck it on a 40ft pole, but for various reasons I can't put a VHF antenna on it, too.
I've been using a VHF Yagi in the loft (the roof is not slate or metal, but fibre tiles) and was getting OK results from the nearest repeater, but it's gradually got worse over the past few months. Rx is totally fine, though.
I'll simply have to get another pole up and stick the Yagi on it.
great job cal
Great experiment thank you
Thank you! Cheers!
i wonder if a yagi would've hit those 3 repeaters? I run a J-pole atop my roof which puts it about 35' above ground level. I can hit repeaters 35-50 miles away. The next closest machine is 75 miles, which I can touch now and again. Fun times!!!
Try it! :)
Hi Callum
Interesting experiment and an interesting initial conclusion / result re the 9 meter sweet spot.
I don't have anything near as impressive as you hydraulic tower. I'm just using a telescopic aluminum pole for my VHF / UHF antenna. Because of the recent windy weather, I drooped it down a section, and certainly noticed a difference with the local repeaters! Hence my interest with your experiment.
What perhaps might be good, would be to repeat this experiment from a couple of different locations, say one that's low down and and poor for VHF / UHF, then one that's really high and good for VHF / UHF. This would confirm if there is in fact a 9 meter sweet spot.
Regards, David (M0XQZ)
Yes, and woouldn't it be good to go even higher..!
@@DXCommanderHQ Yes, it would be good to experiment going higher. - I think that possibly you would find, above a certain height, although there would be an improvement, it would be very small per meter of extra height. And that up to a 'height sweet spot' , you would get plenty of bang per meter.
I don't mean to hijack your experiment, but I was thinking of this spring / summer, trying something with a telescopic fiberglass pole in various locations; where I live, which is in a bit of a bowl, a trig point and at the beach.
Thank You :)
You're welcome!
Another good test Callum. Yes, height seems to be might indeed. I think you got enough steps for that day!😄👍
I think so too!
Interesting test. I find VHF a bit frustrating, despite my aerial being 30 feet high (above the chimney) I don’t have much luck with repeaters. Presuming it’s because I have some higher commercial buildings around me. It’s a small colinear and I have considered something like a CP-22E to see if that extra bit makes any difference without spending a lot more money for no return.
Thanks for the videos Callum 👍🏼
At 2m and above antenna height (getting above obstructions and the tree tops) beats antenna gain as long as your using decent coax.
73 mike N4ONL
Hi there.. like the experiment. Couldn't help notice the effect of the metal building and wether the results would have changed that much say a few hundred yards clear if the structure. Interesting though.
Nope.. There are metal sidings and a fibre and timber roof.
Clapping will help with sync ups if you accidentally hit stop. The spike in audio in your video will line up nicely of your video editor of choice. Count your clap number so you can keep track.
Oh yes.. Alternatively, just let Adobe Premiere look at thew waveform.. Perfect every time.
On VHF, it already happenned that I could access to repeater near Dover
Also, I got station from London on APRS times ago
73 de ON4BCY
What about comparing an electrically short antenna (eg 1/4 wave) high up with an electrically long antenna (eg 2x5/8) at a lower level but where the tops of both antennas are at the same height - just to see whether antenna height gain or rf/electrical gain is the most important. I bet the results would be very similar....
Tops same.. Maybe!
Cal, very good your video!
It is a test that I wanted to do a few days ago!
Thank you for your work and on a rainy day.
73
LU3MKH
Many thanks! It's good fun..
Hello I have your DX Commander. Would it help lowering noise by raising it up 10 20 30 feet??? ( to de above emissions from houses and such?) Love th DX. You gave me the power to do what I want with the antenna. Thank you.
I don't think so.. If you do the modelling, the pattern will hardly change. Use a dedicated RX antenna instead. I'll be doing a video about that shortly.
I found that with a J-pole antenna positioned at 9 meters I could reach the Bay City, MI repeater full-quieting on FM from 64 kilometers away. Of course, the Bay City repeater is positioned just below the top of a 305 meter tower, which may affect the results of the experiment. And while I did not do the test in the rain, my shoe did fall off when I was at the top of my tower mounting the J-pole, and I had to climb down the tower while wearing only one shoe, not the most pleasant experience. :)
Ah yes, the old one-shoe problem!
Yes, the length of the pole certainly makes a difference. However your method of recording signal strength could be confusing. How would you record a signal that was 5dB over S9?
Who cares.. Just demonstrates the idea!
Proof that size matters.
On 6 meters have you ever checked SWR with a beam against hight? I have found it makes a differance.
Yes.. DOne that. Up to about 1 wavelength, it does vary before settling down.
the repeters that you dont access maybe they are just available if antenna is moved 1m sideways
Turns out, the two repeaters I normally hit, were out of action.
This video inquires me to get my antenna up to 8m.
I would get better results in a storm I would be interested what happens in clear weather
What antenna were you using?
X-510
Hallo Cal i wondered if the Swr changed at the same time. I have seen some of you videos and i like the dBi. Best Regards Call OZ1TAP Ole From Denmark
No it don't *think* it did - and I think that was because we were already a couple of wavelengths above ground already. Good question!
The rain has no effect or am I thinking about microwave??
Good question.. I think rain fade is more microwave, yes..
Raining in the UK is effectively "flat" conditions on VHF i.e. zero chance of lift.
The Bob Ross of HAM Radio
Now.. he was amazing..
Hello, any tips for a good VHF/UHF vertical?
Personally I would look at a) Diamond V2000 for a lovely pancake gain figure and if you can forgive the height and length, the DIamond X510 is an absolute MONSTER with an even flatter pancake and extra 3dB to effectively double your transmit and receive over the V2000. I have a few V2000s and have a couple X510s too. X510 every time!
@@DXCommanderHQ Thank you
👍👍
Nice, would have been better if you had the distances of the repeaters you are trying to access. Not everyone knows where you are in comparison to the repeaters, unless this content is for England alone.
Well, it doesn't matter. It's relative to the fact that low down you can't hear one and then you can higher up.
Fun to experiment
Yes.. I always wanted to do that..
To get believable results I think you should do this test everyday for a week or two and average it out.
Good idea!
why is the generator running?
Because it's hydraulic, it needs running monthly and maintenance.
I don't know how do your videos appear to me exactly with the right info for what I'm about to do. And I didn't even searched for this... but I was just wondering how high I should put my vertical dipole for 2m / 70cm. I hope Google can't read my mind... they would be horrified hahaha. 73 .. nice experiment. I'll volunteer next time )))
Yes, don't go down the mind-reading route!
@@DXCommanderHQ 😅😅😅
@monroefisher1288 Not anymore... not on my phone ))
ANd This Is Why I Try To Put All My Antennas on My Third Floor Or Higher With Fishing Poles And Stuff. I Live In MINUS 2 Meters From Sea Level So I Need To Get Them High Or Else They Do Nothing, I Cant get 1000Meters For 446 Mhz Even, Sad !
Oh!
Very nice test Cal enjoyed and confirmed what height means on VHF, good show
Dick w2wc
"You raise me up...." 😀
Next weekend, I'm going to clamp an old Chameleon to our 2.5m tall wooden timber pergola... 🦎
...
If he survives, I'll clamp my MPAS as well, and see if i get a better signal... 😂
I guess all the radials will also have to be raised by 6ft... 🤔 ... I've heard they need to be angled down about 30 degrees away from the antenna?
The raising and lowering of angles gets a better match.. But frankly don't fret. It'll still work.
I know it been a while since you did this experiment… bringing the lift back down 6 or 8 meters and adding a fixed staging pole would allow for another set of 1 meter steps… above the set you measured…
Not that there is much discussion… more height = better
Yep!
whoa i feel like this is Déjà vu
I know.. I'm going to try and not publicise these.. I HOPE I clicked the button NOT to notify..
9 mtrs = a 6 meter scaffold pole 3 meters of the ground 😂
Because 3+6 = 9?
YOU ARE SO BORING, YOU COULD HAVE CONDENSED THIS, BUT WE NEED TO SEE ALL THE B.S..
Has anyone ever told you to fuck off before?
@@DXCommanderHQ I think we should form a queue.
@@M0RMY I'm first!
@@DXCommanderHQconsider me in the queue!
@@M0JSX You're third.
Interesting love watching you and ring way Manchester M6JYP Used to live near you I moved to Eastbourne which is a far more interesting place for radio
Yes I'm sure!