Were Knights Cold Blooded Killers? Response to the Infographics Show
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- Опубліковано 13 лют 2021
- Knights. Noble warriors who upheld a code of chivarly and duty? Or heartless, cold blooded killers? Today we address the Infographics Show again to answer that question. I have no illwill to the Infographics Show and this video is not made to attack them specifically. However, I'm rather sick of the narrative that knights were racist, evil, cold hearted killers who looked for any reason to kill people they didn't agree with. Like many things, it's not so cut and dry. I apologize if I come off a bit harsh or angry in this video. Know that none of what I say in here is meant to be insulting or angry...I just want to set the record straight.
Please enjoy the video. Below you will find the links to the articles in question as well as the Infographics Show original video so you can see it for yourself. PLEASE LET IT BE NOTED THAT I DO NOT CLAIM OWNERSHIP OF ANYTHING IN THIS VIDEO! ALL VISUALS, CLIPS, REFERENCES, AND ANIMATIONS ARE THE PROPERTY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE OWNERS.
Original video: • Medieval Knights Were ...
Historical Reflections Journal: www.berghahnjournals.com/view...
Sarah M. Butler Article: www.berghahnjournals.com/view...
Don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe. - Ігри
There is also the fact that a lot of the Renaissance artists and thinkers wanted to make it appear that they had advanced so much and they would deliberately paint the Middle Ages as like this absolute hellscape. I mean medieval times were brutal but not more so than the Romans or any other country at war
Yup. That's actually where we get the term "Dark Ages" It was coined during the Renaissance.
People nowadays are doing the same thing those in the Renaissance did. People are lying about everyone in the past painting then are pure evil.
@@tropetrinitytrilogy8533 I agree being cursed within the history books to be eternally hated by every generation is much more terrible.
@@tropetrinitytrilogy8533 This actually puts the current era into a bit of perspective. We are currently in the middle of a MASSIVE HUGE BIG FUCK renaissance.
I am glad some one can defend the honor of those no longer able to defend themselves as they did others.
i see you finally decided to show yourself
DAUBENY!!??
@@yaboi4292 I would like to point out The first of April.
Good, you've shown yourself. Now these warriors don't have to die.
EDIT: Typo
So...DAUBENY! DAUBENY SHOW YOURSELF!
"This time... this time was different."
Just imagined his helmet turning towards the infographic channel and his eyes going deep red and the bass going to earrape level
so funny that the first Artorian Knight they mention was Lancelot, ya know, the adulterous traitor that decided to sleep with the kings wife, and kickstarted the down fall of the kingdom
doesnt seem so noble to me
There's an agenda at play, they know exactly what they're doing when they present things like that.
He’s the most popular knight in the book
Although there are some historical examples of Knights breaking their oaths to their own favor, like Götz von Berlichingen (btw that guy was an absolute madlad if you don’t know him),
most knights had a reputation to lose or worse. Most Knights were deeply religious and loyal to their lords, so betrayal was not an option to them. Not every Knight was a sadistic madman.
Also they committed Sepuku if they failed their lord
@@magicman3163 no, those were Samurai
@@medieval8893 would’ve been cooler tho
@@magicman3163 No they committed Sudoku
I enjoyed this video...I appreciate UA-camrs that debunk wrong information about history...And I can tell Raven is passionate about Medieval History...Especially since I’m very passionate about Samurai History...Subscribed ! 👍🏾👍🏾
Thank you dude! Really appreciate it!
17:24 Also they just said 80% of knights didn't participate in combat, meaning that they weren't the "cold-blooded killers" they keep insisting.
Yeah, at that point it was just about pushing the narrative that Knights were just horrible people, but you can’t have one thing and then the other as well, you can’t say that knights enjoyed killing then immediately say that they would opt out of it if they felt like it
This video perfectly demonstrates the true lack of empathy people nowadays have for those in the past. We talk about them being murderous and content living in their own filth and that's just not true. What's true for most of us is true for them. Most people don't enjoy hurting others! Even those who were morally wrong due to societal beliefs didn't just kill for fun. There's good and bad people of every group and just because, some knights didn't live up to their code doesn't mean they or their code was bad.
For a moment I thought they might be empathizing with the knight when they brought up PTSD, but instead they used that as another reason for them being violent. Obviously PTSD can sometimes cause that, but killing innocent people is not a common result of it in a long shot. And if someone loves violence they probably won't be getting PTSD in the first place. It's sad they only acknowledged the trauma some knight went through only as a way to further demonize them.
One other commenter mentioned how in the Renaissance people would lie about medieval times. This was often done to prop themselves up as superior and enlightened and it feels like this video has those same motives. Maybe not, but it feels like that.
I think they missed an opportunity to talk about common misconceptions about the Middle Ages, like romantic life on castles, instead of making these strawman arguments
"These guys also suffered PTSD so they're cold-blooded killers"
The *WHAT*
I know, right?
I can’t be crazy for thinking that a cold blooded killer is unlikely to suffer from PTSD
You know, it's rather odd how Christianity wasn't mentioned once or at least explicitly in this video, especially considering how important it is during the Middle Ages. Kind of suspicious to be left out, don't you think?
Good point
Yeah pretty sussy
Indeed
Hey now wait a minute, they said faith once.
It's a given. The church did not take no for an answer.
They do realize that medieval knights were still people right? Not animals?
The knights wear just soldiers sure they killed people.that is what they did. But they are not heartless killers... people who get attacked by knights might think it but they are. Not. Thank you for standing up for the Knight's
Knights were the only protection and glimmer of hope during the Middle Ages since it was a dark time and chivalry inspired many to do great things. Some knights weren’t good but it’s the same as soldiers nowadays, not every soldier is good. It’s still right and honorable for men in armor to protect their homes, friends, and family from enemies in war along with performing chivalrous acts. Same with men in camouflage going out to protect their homes.
Chad Chivalric Christian Knight vs. Virgin Pinker and Someones
the infographics video is dishonest at best and malicious at worst. people are trying to tear down the myths and foundations of Heros. we need heroes as people we should aspire to be like. fantastic video from you Knight. earned a sub man.
It’s like when medieval lords in tv and movies are shown been horrible and cruel to their peasants.
I’m mean... it’s not like the nobles need the peasants in order to maintain their wealth and treating them poorly or killing them makes them less efficient and so affects the wealth they generate for you so why would you mess with that?.
Plus legally, peasant could leave a lord’s land if they didn’t like the conditions.
Yes, poeple like to forget that in the good old day in Europe had a much smaller populus so most of the time the lords even give peasents a short time of no taxation agreement if they go to there lands. + If a lord mismanadged or was cruel to his peosents the church have the right to punish him with the monarchs help.
@@varisugocsay1152 or worse excommunicate them
@@marseldagistani1989 Yes, exatly. The church was the moral police over the political system in a way it was a very benefical arrangment for the common people because they were protected by the lord, the king and the church in the same time. Self evidently mismanagmen and cruilty happend but no system perfect and for the time period it was pretty good.
@@varisugocsay1152 Yeah, it was better than nothing.
And it may not have been the splendor of the Roman Empire for the time it worked.
even the Emperor of the H.R.E wasn't stupid enough to go against the pope... and vice versa
@@marseldagistani1989 Oke-oke, it happend sometimes. And in the high medieval era the avarege life exeptations were even higher than in the antiquity. Wars were rarer and you can't become slave lawfully. The medieval era doesn't was worse than the antiquity at all except the early middle ages but it was because this was the time of great changes and fall of the Western Empire after that it become more stable and much more prosperious. (Self evidently the Black Death is exeption from the rule but even under Rome we had a lot of pandemic and whatsnot)
People “Believe" what they want to believe, despite the truth or evidence.
Not just this video, but many other historical videos they make are straight up wrong, full of inaccuracies and misconceptions
Thanks for the for honor joke to keep it a little bit happier. Glade we can see the others side and standing up for the knights long-ago. Once again thank you.
Suddenly I feel a whole lot prouder to be a member of the knights faction
We may not be the strongest, but we have our Honor, our loyalty, and our spirits, we will never abandon our cause
I wonder how the tone and presentation would be if it were, say, Ottoman or Saracen warriors (or some other historical enemy of the west) that were the subject of the video?
Hey Raven can u do a video on your armour how pratical is it?
Oh yeah, that would be pretty interesting to see considering it has some samurai elements.
Hahaha. What an interesting idea
@Bluewulf or a samuight...
its Warden with Orochi armor how practical is that? i don't know BUT i know how COOL it looks xD
You are a great UA-camr. I don't really know much about Medieval History as I know more about 19th and 20th century history, but your videos are easy to understand and you have a great personality and way of addressing things. Keep up the good content!
Thank u raven. Seriously thank u. That video u had reviewed had earned me scorn from many for looking at the value of chivalry as paramount to my own ideals. And I'm glad someone such as urself had put down these false claims to what i considered the hero's of my childhood. Seriously. Thank u.
Tis a good video indeed
another great video raven
Thank you!
“The False is strong with this one” 😂👌nice one
I love this video I learned a lot and I love your passion for correcting this misinformation
"i WaNnA gRoW uP aNd Be A mAsS mUrDeReR"
NO CHILD WOULD EVER THINK THIS, ANY THAT WOULD REQUIRES IMMEDIATE PSYCHOLOGICAL CARE
This.This is one of the many reasons why I don't watch the infographics show. They spread so much misinformation and whenever I see a video they put up I become skeptical of the information they put out and I just don't watch it. And I'm so glad that there are people who debunk many if not all of their claims. So thank you Raven Knight for making this video, you're an amazing youtuber. ^w^
Greetilings brother Blood Knight! Well put!
i feel like you let the other video run a little long but i actually like it because it gives off the feeling that you omit no detail, not twisting their words and instead disagreeing with the points they were actually making
I love watching people rip channels like this apart. I used to think they were just lazy or dumb but a lot of their videos seem to go out of their way to ignore more prominent and accredited sources for any that support what they are trying to push.
As a history graduate aspiring to become a teacher myself, you are an inspiration Raven
Awesome video, man! I learnt a lot of new things from it! And also learnt that some stuff that I thought was false!
they show this in assassin creed and ghost of tushima the knights mess with civilians, civilians team up against knights,
and knight come from over seas to war with other kingdoms but they protect they’re kingdom well and try to bring everyone up with jobs to keep they kingdom going and have good protection from other invading troopers.
great explaining
Ngl, the helm your avatar has looks like an elite knight from the dark souls franchise stuck a samurai helmet on top, that makes it even more badass haha
It's like there's a concerted effort to demean European heritage or something...
I have nothing against European heritage, my mom however is First Nations…so imagine what she’d think when Europeans are brought up
Not every knight was a hero but there were some who were:
William Marshal
William Wallace
Saint George
Pierre Terrail, seigneur de Bayard
Joan of Arc(I consider her a knight because she wore armor, led a French army during the Hundred Years War, and did great things for France even though she never fought in battle)
That last one is a questionable conclusion since absolutely none of those things have anything to do with being a knight.
Honestly when I think of Knights I think of the Warden
The Warden is the perfect example of a TRUE knight
Loyal, Honourable, Dutiful and Mighty
The Warden fought Gudmundr, the Jarl of the fort at the end of the knight chapter in the campaign, and when Gudmundr had given up, was just sitting in front of his burning hall, the Warden didn’t just walk up and execute the guy, the Warden handed him his sword for a duel, a sense of honour
The Warden fought for Daubeny as a simple mercenary, but even when called to be Daubeny’s second without any regard for his own opinion on the matter, he did what he was payed to do, even if it meant fighting a knight from the Blackstone Legion, a sense of loyalty
The Warden didn’t become a knight of the Blackstone Legion just because he wanted to, he faced a member of the legion and defeated him, proving his strength, a sense of might and power
And last, but certainly not least, the Warden’s greatest act in the campaign, was betraying Apollyon and reforming the dying Iron Legion, as when he had helped conquer the Vikings and killed Gudmundr, he realized that Apollyon was fighting to continue the wars, to keep the bloodshed coming, and as a man dedicated to protecting the weak, a man sworn to peace, he abandoned the Blackstone Legion, took the mighty big guns in Apollyon’s group, and reformed the Iron Legion, before joining forces with the army of the Emperor’s Champion and leading the charge against Apollyon and the Blackstone Legion, a sense of duty to his people
There’s a reason Warden mains are so commonly seen as players who people seem to respect, they chose Warden because he was cool, but stuck with him because they started exhibiting traits of the Warden, they were somewhat skilled, somewhat honourable and respectful, they were deemed worth giving respect to, and whenever I see a Warden in a game, I get excited to see what they have in store for me
23:11 Raven cameo
why did that make me laugh
Another response video I see?
Yeah, I do these from time to time. Mostly it’s just against historical inaccuracies and the like, but occasionally I branch out like I did with the Korra videos.
“The false is strong with this one”, I like this line.
Raven thank you for debunking that bad video im glad somebody debunked that thank you.
I love how you debunk infographics. I mean if all knights acted like infographics said wouldn't they be breaking the common law and no better than bandits if they had the right to do whatever they wanted. 🤣
What really annoys me is that modern people can't seem to understand that the entire world lived by the law of conquest.
Start the crusade!
ahh the infoshow the idiots who butchered the scp logs and now are butchering history.
INCREDIBILIS!!!!!!!!!
Ad mortem
@@RavenKnightYT *INOMICUS!*
INFIRMUS
MISERUM
Yeah, infographics may be wrong but the illustration at 23:17 was awesome
Why are knights my favourite warrior in history?
Because knights are loyal, chivalrous and mighty, the three traits of a hero
Of course there weren’t always gonna be good knights, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean they were all bad
I think my favourite kind of soldier is one who protects the weak, and fights to end the fighting, and to actually hear someone finally say that knights who protected the innocent and defenceless, knights who fought to end the fighting, knights like the Warden from For Honor, that knights like that ACTUALLY EXISTED, makes me happy
Knights have been, and always will be, my favourite kind of warrior throughout history
I probably learn more about the Renaissance era from you then my actual teacher
We need more videos like this.
Brother I absolutely love the channel
That video was tough to just listen to and I have no clue how someone could be just blatantly dumb on the research
Seriously common sense can debunk this. Great video.👍
That and Knights was a loose term since every knight was different, like the first knights called Franks were men in viking armor (Shield, chain mail, and helmet) and they started as a militia group to stop the viking and it worked, but while time went forward, I saw knights more as heavy units, since more armor was added and more armor means more money, until knights were so common that people had to make weapons to kill knights, the crossbow was created, but then knights changed again from being loyal to a lord or a king, they were loyal to their religion (The templars are a more unique knight)
I'm late but he was partially right yes some knights were amazing people but some were either robber barons or just did what they wanted
But then again, to say that because a few knights were heartless and cruel means that all knights were heartless and cruel is like saying that because one cop shot an innocent black man all cops are racist pigs, it’s simply not true
There’s always gonna be bad apples, but you can’t say they’re all bad, that was the main point of the video
That’s flat out wrong. A noble could do that. A knight, even the biggest asshole out there, could not for the simple reason that he literally lacks the resources to do so.
On a side note, based on your usage, you have no idea what “robber baron” even means.
You can tell that a video is going to be shit when they use stock animations/photos
The infographic show is one that’ll post a video that the US could conquer the world, then put out a later one that says China’s could have have a fighting chance against the US. They’re a very skewed and at best surface level show with pretty graphics.
Update, they just made a recent video where they waaaaaay overestimate North Korea’s ability to win a war against South Korea and the US. They’re not a information show, they’re a fan fiction show.
The funniest bit is, to say a knight would kill peasants.
That's something they can T A X later. m o n e y
why dont they ever consult actual experts
As a boy I always wanted to be a knight to wear armor & pledge my life to God & serve Him & bring glory to my Lord. To protect my family & other. I always saw a knight as a protector of the people a servant of the living God of Israel a symbol of faith & justice but I do now this nobody is perfect especially the knights but if I could I would be a knight
I never liked the infographic show anyway
First SCP and now history 2 down 5 to go
Love the video
I have heard of the knights of the round table I know just see the monty python ones though for that just more fun
Lol when its stated no justice system. 🤣🤣
“There was no Justice system”
You can’t exactly have any form of civilization without a Justice system, imagine America without a Justice system, it’d be destroyed
Funny its like comparing Dark souls to For Honor . Why
I think the other factions in for honor saw that video.
hmmm from what i know while some knight could give in to banditry and lordvslord/knightvsknight skirmishes where a thing, in fact bad enought that the church ended coming wiht the crusades to "fix" the problem is the idea that they would be massacring peassants is silly, specially because peasant uprising where a thing and rather scary for not powerful holders.
as for the video itself yes its has wonky basis and skewed prespective.
Raven knight: how many of these pop culture writers keep showing what do they have against law and order why can’t they just let them be as they are
Anyone who references Steven Pinker shouldn't be take seriously. The dude constantly writes about philosophers he has never read. He fantasises about going back in time and violating the sisters of philosophers he doesn't like. The man is a joke.
There should be more views so this BS can be exposed more.
their video is straight up propaganda.
Hey so you seem like a big Knight buff so let me ask you this. Did Knights get peasants to fight their battle's for them? Because a friend told me that they did.
No. Peasants and serfs were necessary for the functioning of the economy since they worked the land. If you send them to fight your battles, and they die in the process, you’re out those laborers. If a knight became so desperate he had to send peasants to fight for him, it was a sign he’s already lost. If you’re a professional soldier, the fighting is your job. If your lord finds out you can’t do it and you put that task on the shoulders of peasants, then you’re likely to lose your station.
Discord inv?
discord.gg/FKESk95TXk
It's funny that all the bad come out when they are gone but almost none of the good like with the knights and like the norse peoples who where very clean and respectful to others and yes a lot did bad but more did good
I’m a kniiiiiight it’s my riiiiiiight!
After my knowledge there where many private Feuds (private Wars ) in Germany !
knights weren't perfect but they weren't monsters either
No one is perfect
funne voice lmao 13:42
1:18
Virgin: I am racist 🤓
Chad: I disagree with you racially 😎
Im pretty sure the crusades were mostly peasants and footmen anyway, right?
Actually there were plenty of norman knights that went on the first Crusade. After the first crusade though, many knight orders like the Templars were formed and they would go on other Crusades later.
@@RavenKnightYT ok thanks for the correction. I like reading history, but I honestly don't retain half of it
10:00
Woooooo the reality of the knights were being spit by Raven wooooo
Yes, let's just leave it at too functional. Lol maybe just a bit
This is actually hilarious how stupid this is
Well I mean civilians weren’t defenseless
If there wasn’t a Group of soldiers just outside of town
Then they had to defend themselves against all the bandits and highwayman
I mean I put my money on 3 guys with a sharp rock then some random ass hole
With a sword and some armor any day
@Acroselorator blunt force is practically the weakness of knights armour, one good strike could break bones, a few good hits or hell even just one good hit from a club to the head and that knight is done
İnfographics confuse knights with arab muslim warriors
Emm why you bringing up an arab muslim warrior my man?
@@Lyjacxz because if you actually read a history book, the description Infographics gives of knights better matches Muslim warriors. When fighting, to them everyone else actually was either a heretic (other Muslims) or an infidel (everyone else).
13:10 'You wouldn't respond to being pillaged by pillaging, so knights wouldn't do it.' Strawman. That's not What Info said. He said the lord would order it.
Speaking of strawmen...you literally just committed one yourself. At 11:09 I mention what the local lord would do in these situations. You skipped over that part to accuse me of a strawman fallacy. Don't throw sticks in glass houses, friend.
You seem to be failing to grasp the purpose of this video. Look at the graphics. This is aimed at children. It's not a historical piece, it is a propaganda piece.
Ah, so content for children is immune from criticism? Propaganda is immune from criticism? Is that the hill you wish to die on?
@@RavenKnightYT You're criticizing their accuracy. They were never trying to be accurate, they were always trying to attract kids with cutesy graphics, and push a message. Not, push the truth.
@@brimstone6665
The title of their channel is 'INFOgraphics.' Implying that they are giving information. Therefore the implication should be that they are teaching and providing information. Watch more of their channel, they talk about very adult topics all the time; they are not just a childrens channel.
But...let's pretend they ARE a childrens channel...
So it's okay to be dishonest with children? It's okay to perpetuate a bias? Wow...that's an interesting take.
@@RavenKnightYT I'm not defending them. I'm saying their trying to propagandize to kids, not tell the actual truth, which is what you're trying to do, and I commend you for. Sorry if I came off in a different manner than intended.
20:00 'Knights weren't any worse than contemporary soldiers...' Whataboutism.
God, you are all about the strawman fallacies today. I did not say that knights were just as bad as contemporary soldiers. I said that when pillaging was done, it was usually the contemporary footsoldiers who did it because they were being paid to go to war while the knights were already garunteed land and status for their service, so the paid footsoldiers had more need for money and plunder. (19:51)
The infographics show has over a million views & you....
It’s a shame how misinformation and lies are mainstream and get far more views. The ignorant masses will eat up any contrarian talking point, even if it’s built on faulty or fraudulent information.
Please don’t fall into the trap of viewer count equals credibility. Because by that logic, CNN, Fox News, and every other main stream news outlet can never be questioned, for they haven’t far more viewers and followers than any of us. Viewership will never equal credibility or put one above reproach.
@@RavenKnightYT lies are what the mainstream spews without a break, for ex, Warriors are heroes
@@r------ which mainstream outlet spews that?
@@RavenKnightYT every single one
15:01Knights don't just kill. They're sworn Catholics.' 🤣😂🤣 Crusades? Templars? This would be a good retort to Info if you weren't raging over peripheral points.
....Again with the strawman fallacies, huh? I did not say 'knights don't just kill because they are sworn Catholics.' In fact at the very beginning of the video and the end of the video I said that knights did kill. They were soldiers.
The problem here is that Info is saying they MURDER people regularly. And my point is that murder is a cardinarl sin. The Crusades were a WAR. And soldiers do have to KILL in war. Templars fought in the Crusades and that involved killing in WAR. But Murder is not killing in war, it's killing because you enjoy it, because you want to, or because you don't like the other person. I was pointing out that knights do not swear their oaths to the king and to the church so they can get away with murder. That makes no sense, especially since their actions as a knight would be heavily scrutinized.
Watch your profanity
There was no profanity. What are you talking about?
I mean, you are clearly talking from a christian biased point of view.
At what point did I bring my own faith into the discussion? At what point did I base my arguments off of my own personal beliefs? Did I not cite specific sources to counter Infographics? Did I not point out the lack of consistency and sources used by my opposition?
Yes, you’re free to claim I have a bias, but I did not bring that bias into this discussion or response. I used sources, historical research, and common sense.
Let’s say he is Christian which I’m pretty sure he may be he still cited his sources and never even brought in his faith into the arguments.
You can say that, but unless he actually brings it up and doesn’t cite his sources, that’s not the main topic of the conversation and it’s not brought in
That’s like if I tried supporting cops by saying they’re not all racist and providing actual facts to prove it then some dumbass saying “Yeah but you’re white so you’re biased”
@Raven Knight
Why did you admit to him that you're a Christian? Is that even necessary? Now, people will not trust you anymore.
What did he say that was wrong? Nothing. You could just as accurately say that Infographics came from a very anti-Christian pov based on how they wrote things. Do you know what the chief difference is? Raven cited sources and is correct in this case. Infographics cited an idiot and displays an embarrassing amount of ignorance on the subject.
Uhh... What? Of course, they were, so were samurai, so were Vikings. The honor thing was more of a way to justify their actions. Chivalry, Bushido, and Valhalla really meant nothing when it comes down to it. Knights oftentimes abused the power they had over the land they were given. They would falsely accuse peasants that angered them and use that to justify hunting them. They killed men, they raped women, and they burned babies. All of this is pretty well documented as well.
This is grossly inaccurate and unfair to the knights, samurai, and vikings. While some were horrible people, others truly did live up to the high standards set for them. While some knights might have done terrible things, others did noble and selfless things. There are recorded cases of Knight Orders, like the Hospitallers building hospitals and medical facilities after the First Crusade. The Templars originally helped support the poor and needy. And many MUSLIM citizens in the Crusader states went on to claim that they were happier under Knight leadership than Islamic.
Please...share these documented sources with me. What sources tell you that this was the standard? Where did you find documentation that it was the norm for knights to burn babies? What documentation says that it was just the norm for knights to abuse their power? Because I've found documentation to the opposite.
sandradodd.com/sca/womenandwork
www.worldhistory.org/Knights_Templar/
www.britannica.com/topic/Hospitallers
viagallica.com/grece/lang_en/hopital_chevaliers.htm
Lol you lost so much credibility when you are 1. Unable to site sources 2. Want to apply generalizations that weren't mentioned and 3. Using your mocking tone.... 1/10.
K
You must have never read a book. Everything he said lines up with what you would find in an actual history book of the time period. He DID cite sources (there goes your credibility). And the tone was not mocking, as much as the video deserved it.
I didn't, don't and wasn't supposed to have any credibility when it come to this topic. Was his tone mocking or not? You seem indecisive on that point. Listen, I have read many books. Expensive leather bound books. I read them in my lounge that smells of rich mahogany. @@John-fk2ky