How NOT to Use Drum Samples
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- Опубліковано 9 лис 2020
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This is not another video rant about why drum samples suck.
I like drum samples. I use them. Most mixers do.
But I've noticed an annoying trend lately where drum samples are being used without any taste or skill - even on pretty big records - and the result is not fun to listen to.
Here are a few examples of how to use drum samples well, and how to mess it up badly.
I’d like to see a video of only using drum samples for someone without access to an actual drummer. For example, how to write midi to make it sound more natural and dynamic, how to mix them differently to get various sounds out of the different kit pieces, if there’s anything you’d do differently to mix samples vs the real thing
Misha from Periphery did something just like that a few years ago: ua-cam.com/video/Bge36qT8VpI/v-deo.html&ab_channel=TopSecretAudio
I think that is actually part of one of his courses.
@@EPTR1CKS Periphery's drums sound plastic, overprocessed and unrealistic even when tracking real drums sadly
What do you mean "without access to an actual drummer"? You're writing it here, so you have an internet connection. Down with excuses!
@@ZoomRmc not everyone can afford to hire a session drummer, my dude.
damn who in his right mind could be against anything you said here, I love how down to earth and in control you are in your videos. You're one of my two favorite audio channel on youtube! Thanks for doing that!
You absolutely hit the nail on the head with your argument for drum samples at the beginning. It reminds me of discussions I've had and also discussions on vocal tuning and such. In the real world, it's about getting the best sounding record possible. There's a reason why the production of songs on the radio sounds so great.
Funny, I actually think a lot of the songs on the radio sound inorganic overproduced and lifeless. It's gotten to a point where it's difficult to make up if the drums where programmed or played, not just because drum sampling programs are better but also because people try to make real drums sound like if they were programmed...
@Chet Senior ?? Because I prefer songs that don't generaly end up on the radio? Think indie folk or folk music with played instruments, real players and drums that were not «beat detectived» and resampled to death?
I know this is supposed to be about samples and how they can be distracting from the music, but I can't help but appreciate how nice the new room looks that it's almost distracting hahaha, great video as always.
Dude, not only the content of the video is amazing but the background behind you looks great!!
Aside from all the sample talk, I gotta say your videos and lighting look sweet as man. I heard you say in your studio tour your editor told you to get better lighting instead of a new lens and it's worked a treat. Should buy that man a case!
This dude is the goat man. I’ve learned so fucking much from him. The best applied use of this “mix for a great sounding song not for big sounding drums” is the new loathe record those drums sound nothing like drums i feel like you’d expect from a heavy record but the mix of the songs as a whole brings all the weird shit they do together and it makes everything pair so beautifully.
this dude is the goat
So glad someone brought up Loathe. They did augment the drums and in some songs almost replace them entirely according to the guys at URM, but they're really unique and fit every song perfectly. I love that they're also mixed differently on every song so nothing gets stale.
Always great seeing a new video from you! Thanks for the knowledge Jordan. \M/
Totally in agreement with you Jordan. Really thanks for the affirmation, especially I often hear many reputable mixes are going heavy and heavier on the kick, snare and tom mix. So loud that they are sharing almost the same stage (or worse, higher soundstage pedestal) than vocal at times.
watching your videos for a while and subscribed to you channel but now I'm taking your "Mixing Modern Metal" course on Pro Mix Academy and maaaaaan what a great course you created! I already mixed "Silverstein-Face Of The Earth" by taking your course and my metal mixes never sounded so well! Huuuuuge thanks to you for creating such a great course!
That Nick Johnston mix is juicy
the problem is people legitimately think you need to be able to hear every snare and kick hit when you don't.
listen to records like avenged sevenfold's waking the fallen, you don't hear every hit but you know where it is because you can feel it.
Great video. Something I've had an issue with in a lot of mostly heavy music since 2010ish is every production trying to make the drums bigger in the mix rather than mixing to the song. I absolutely loved albums done by Jason Suecof and Adam D like Black Dahlia's Nocturnal and Parkway Drive's Horizons because while they were definitely augmented, they sat in a place that made the whole mix sound bigger and more epic by perception rather than throwing cannon snares in there for wow factor. That tasteful mixing gave those albums longevity in my opinion; they've stood the test of time where a lot of other albums that followed with other bands have been forgotten.
Well said 👏👏👏👏
Fat City Snare for the win
Good points on not over doing it and blending the sound of the mix to be a more cohesive work of art.
your closure words are legit. respect.
Right video at the right time for me. Thanks!
Bro that first loud ass snare cracked me up. Lol, As always thank you Jordan for not only sharing your priceless advice, but also in a user friendly, digestible manner that can help lots of new producers/engineers.
I've seen where people will use a snare sample to trigger a reverb on a send track but leave the trigger muted. This gives them a clean reverb that doesn't get messed up with bleed from cymbals or other drums.
You could have named this video "How to make your drums sound like FFDP". I've been noticing this type of snare for a long time, meanwhile everyone complains about it not sounding human or real (especially in the really fast rolls/fills). We've got some weird disconnect here where no one wants to hear drums like this, but everyone keeps making drums sound like this. Fascinating.
Hah, so true. I think it's because no one wants to take the risk of not having "big enough" drums. I get it. But I also think it's because of the engineer culture online now, a lot of mixers are more concerned with impressing other engineers instead of just mixing the song.
Cause they LIKE IT DUH
@@hardcoremusicstudio it cuts, simply put.
I tend to leave most of my tracks as raw as they are when I record them yet when I share them with friends I always get “can’t hear the drums”, so either I turn them up or make them cut more with eq and whatnot.
You really can’t win when it comes down to perspective in the end.
Thanks for making this vid. I've actually lost clients because I use live kit/sample hybrid tones for drums and their drums didn't "smack" as hard as other modern records. As a drummer, I'm adamant about realistic drum sounds and clients don't always understand that.
I think a lot of people needed to hear this. Thanks for making this video!
Best video I've seen from you yet. Nice one.
Love your videos! Very helpful!
Thanks a bunch for sharing the knowledge with us ❤
I really agree with this. Sometimes samples I'm hearing in the modern metalcore recordings sound way too artificial/sterile and it lacks excitement. I like big sounding percussions, but that is something I expect in dance/electronic music. In organic music, I'd expect more organic sounding drums.
This is the issue I have atm my drums are at the right volume but sound way to intense thanks for helping me notice that 😬
What do you suggest for projects with just programmed drums? The Slate stuff on it's own just gets you to the finish line too quick. I've always been against using over drum processed samples only because I want to actually learn how to mix a live drum kit. I'm thinking of using BFD for a natural kit sound and then blend in the Slate kicks and snares.
Do you recommend adjusting the pitch of the samples used, to match the natural drums? Or at least for the toms? If not, do you think about pitch when selecting samples?
This is great. Thanks, Jordan!
Love the sound of the snare result in the first example.
I think this is where the debate actually lands - there are plenty of situations where using a sample to enhance or augment the sound is appropriate, and sometimes it's necessary in order to save the recording. A lot of rock & metal has been brutalised by over-quantizing and fully sample-replacing the drums and that really does suck, but in my mind good use of samples is no different to using other effects on instruments, whether that's before or after they're tracked. Properly used it's no different to using an amp sim or other processing on a DI track.
Save that "big crack"" snare sample to accentuate a solo snare hit in the middle of a breakdown 😈
Great video. I used to use drum loops it got boring, so I just started doing drums myself with my drum sequencer firrrrre beats way better. But I still use drum loops time to time. But its up to the persons preferences or style.
Great video Jordan
You said "Know who you're mixing for". I had to learn this the other direction. Film and TV music would get sent back to me with the publisher saying "They want the drums loud, loud, loud" like for an action scene or even epic cinematic orchestra. I was also told to master with this insane loudness/crest factor. But I had to learn that even though I would not mix it that way for me to enjoy listening to the piece, I had to "know who I'm mixing for". I had to learn in my mixes and mastering to distinguish the goal first - is this "production " music or is this "listening" music. Is this a scene in a film or is this an album to be enjoyed. Still learning.
..listening to those A/B comparisons has convinced me to go bigger and gnarlier with the drum samples.
I'm a drummer and an engineer myself. I don't mind drum samples at all. If it helps the mix, then it helps the mix. I still strive to get the best natural sound possible for my own recording sessions to send to clients, with the bands I work with, or for my own band.
I gotta be honest, I LOVE the way that cannon snare sounds. Is it included in the Slate plug-in?
Chango studios FOP Kit!
@@preplulu I cannot seem to find that anywhere
@@MykeyMassacre Cameron Mizell (owner of chango) gave all his samples and production sounds away for free in 2018 at some point. I don´t think you can buy his stuff anymore sadly. Might find a download link if you google around a bit
today i actually found a link to the chango studios fop kit for free before the website went down that sells it. i can confirm that is the exact same snare as in this video. if anyone wants the link i can post it, it goes to a google drive folder with all the samples in it
@@rileyxdmsk1268 i would love the link, thanks!
I agree that the best results are often found with a blend of sample and live sounds. The genre and the song also play a pretty big role. If you try mixing in a bunch of sample drum sounds on a track that is not as dense and those featured here, I think you would lose the organic nature of the tune not to mention that the identical sound every sample hit will be exposed. This becomes very apparent when there is alot of air in the track and each sound has its own space.
Enjoyed your philosophy on this one. It's good to have a reminder that not very song needs a MASSIVE snare. You're right, we have to serve the songs, not just try to impress our producer friends by flexing on our massive kick and snare sounds 😂
Great video, thanks
Jordan, I'm REALLY curious about your opinion on the new In Flames re-recorded/remastered songs, with all those horrible drum samples and guitar sounds...
What I'd like to know is how your transient information on all your tracks is proper volume buy the noise in between is next to nothing... It's almost just a thin line.
When I heard "Remarkably Human" for the first time, you automatically became one of my favorite mixing engineers!
I remember when I got my reality check and learned about Andy Wallace and his use of samples to augment the real drums on almost all of my favorite rock albums from the 90s.
Was that Rick Beato’s video? I had the same moment - like I didn’t know if I even really liked those bands or I just liked Andy Wallace’s snare sound 😅
@@tommy9951side note: Rick Beati criticizes the use of drum samples but then (rightfully) praises Andy Wallace's mixes that... use drum samples (and Rick knows it)
What about VSTs like EzDrummer? Is that good enough on its own or it has to be mixed as well?
Totally agree with everything you said :)
Thank you for the video
The room is looking great btw !
One major thing too is also mix engineers just give every client drummer the exact same samples regardless of their type of music they are playing versus customizing or to suite the song. For me as a drummer, I know what I am looking for when getting tracks mixed. I personally track the kick with triggers on my kicks to create one kick track with the intention of sample replacement with a better sample that is realistic and suites the song. I also love the idea of using my snare as much as possible but with adding a sample to supplement the snare. My least favorite thing is using tom samples unless again to supplement my real toms a little. To me, tom samples sound like hitting rubber balls and lack variation of hitting and dynamics.
I've been a Breaking Benjamin fan since their inception and if you go nvm and listen to "Phobia" (2006 I believe) it's an AMAZING sound even by today's standards. First time I put in their latest "Ember" and heard the drum mix my reaction was a big 'ol "WTF" is going on here! You definitely know your stuff and teaching me TONS my man! Keep it up! Blessings!
I'd like to mention something I learned that relates to this. It's about conga tracks, but don't fret, it applies to this. I discovered that if I had a good killer conga track, my first rookie instinct was 'turn it up a bit more, then!' But I soon realized this was a stupid idea. If the conga track was turned up 1.5 to 2 dB more, yes you could hear it clearer, and it didn't really unbalance things. But what it then did was become more conscious in the mind of the listener.
When something like a perc element becomes more conscious to a listener (bc we make it a bit louder), that is not necessarily a good thing. In fact, it can be a bad thing. Now the listener is perceiving the 'killer' perc track within their conscious, intellectual mind, which means they are not really having an emotional reaction to it, bc emotion is in the domain of the unconscious mind. That's where we feel things. Conscious awareness is actually the enemy. I know that sounds wrong, but it isn't. The objective view of the listener is what is important, and the subjective view of the mixer is different, and much less important.
Here's the paradox: If you have that great conga track in a solid mix and you turn it down, instead, to the point where it is barely perceptible, the conga hits that happen at the same time as main perc hits from a drum kit or notes from a vocal or an instrumental solo actually are buried to a degree, yet they are not buried when they happen at other times in the track, and our conscious minds (as listeners) don't really perceive the conga as even being there, yet our unconscious does, and it has an effect on us that is emotional and much more powerful than if it were turned up and being perceived consciously.
I know that sounds crazy, but I think it's true. I've seen the proof countless times. A shorter way to express this would be to say 'if you want listeners to tap their feet and nod their heads and groove and feel the music, turn that conga track down instead of turning it up, and it will have a stealth effect that accomplishes that, bc then it targets the unconscious mind rather than the conscious mind, and that is where the emotion, the feeling, resides'. Turning it down a bit targets that hypnotic state we are going for in the listener. Turning it up skunks that hypnotic state.
I don't think I'm alone in this. This may be a better example: In nearly every song I hear, where is the hi-hat? It's almost just barely perceptible. If it were lower, it would have no purpose in being there, but if it were louder, it would not fit in the mix properly, and it would be something the listener would be more consciously aware of, and it would lose that magical effect it has when it is barely perceptible. But mute that barely-perceptible hi-hat, or turn it up, and the magic disappears.
Layering in a crazy huge snare or bombastic kick sample does much the same thing. Yes, we want everything to be distinct and for nothing to be muddy or covered up, but that is absolutely not the way to get there. It's shooting yourself in the foot.
I also seem to hear songs where the snare is way too loud and not even a natural snare sound, and this makes me think maybe the engineer, or producer, or musician is trying to compensate for their insecurity about a recording or a song they don't really have faith in being all that good. What they seem to not realize is this is a dead giveaway, and it only makes the track weaker.
I feel myself guilty of trying to get everything out of a existing drums without using samples by overcompressing and driving its sound to a crazy and non-natural boom-bam. I know, using samples saves a lot of time, but I'm like: "Hey, they've created the samples from smth, why can't the drums I've got sound as huge?"
A question for me that holds me back from making decisions sometimes.
Spot on brother!
Before ending a tracking session, record samples of kick and snare and use those samples. They will blend great, plus you can use the room it's recorded in without any cymbal bleed.
What I have been trying to do for a while (last few years) is learn to record the absolute best drums possible without samples (to the point where they could almost pass for sampled drums), so that when the time comes to use them, I can use them as little as possible to get the sound I want. I am a huge advocate of keeping the human element in the music, and I in general just don't vibe as well with sample-heavy drums (unless it is death metal), so I try to keep them as natural as possible (within limits ofc) to keep that feeling that you get from real drums. Ends up creating a way better vibe and gives a certain 'feeling' to the track, that I feel a lot of records are losing. The amount of emotion that (more) natural drums can add to a track is incredible. It can just add a whole layer of depth to the track imo.
I think there is a human element to production as well. I like real drums in many situations, but in a lot of cases, you can create a certain vibe with samples which is either impossible or impractical to achieve with real drums, and especially from a workflow standpoint, it can be *more fun* to use samples, which is very important because if you're having fun, the music will sound great.
What credits do you have, besides a Shure and an 8 track midi controller?
lol Don't show this to Glenn
I was about to say that 😂😂😂
HAHAHA
This guy is a professional. Glenn is more of a personality. However, I’ve learned a lot from Glen so I shouldn’t bag on him too much
@@dougleydorite it's all in good fun. I wager a guess that we've all learned plenty from Glenn. I know I have
People who complain about drum samples has obviously never heard of the Linn Drum. 🤭
The 80’ was rocking it !
When blending with trigger does trigger phase need to be flipped?
I'm watching this video on my phone and I can only really make out the clarity of the drums when they're up front in the way you don't like. This should be something to consider when you're mixing. There may actually be a method to the madness
Excellent observation I must say
Where can we buy your drum samples?
I like your analogy about a carpenter refusing to use power tools. We definitely don't need so much dogma about drum samples in audio lol. I much prefer the metric you provide: Does this record sound good?
Yeah, that point when you mute live or sample and see they complement each other, is the key!
I loved the canyon snare 😂
Fill in the frequency gaps w/ samples that accentuate those gaps, and fader to taste. Seems straight forward enough.
Rock recordings of the 1970s; the drums were almost always subdued in the mix, never sounding like any concert I went to. Obviously compression was over used, and analog recording had its limitations, but I did hear rock recordings with natural drums...so it was possible. Instead we got the guitars up front and overwhelming, and the drum/bass was muffled in the background. Once in a while you would buy a record from a band that consistently from album to album had a more even mix, but it was rare.
I was surprised to hear the kick was ungated, seems like he doesnt boost much high end on it and that's why he uses the samples.
I do a similar thing on my mixes, I record my own samples with the drummer on every session and use the sampled kick to boost the top end. But I gate my close mics though, just in case.
This is interesting, I think in your sections of where you're soloing the drums and talking about how much of the sample you're using, it would have been more insightful to show the mixer window..
It's a thin line indeed... we all get carried out by the possibility of using a more present, aggressive, well-recorded sound, specially when the material you have in hands is not quite there, or wasn't recorded as well as the samples we all have access to. And the general public doesn't quite have the ability to understand and notice the difference... It's an everyday struggle; I never start a project wanting to use samples, but in the end of the day, I almost always use 'em...
I notice you like to use D4 Samples still today. What are some of your favorite D4 Samples?
Great tips and all but one thing... remember to check the PHASE! sometimes the sample might be out of phase with the kick and fixing it makes a world of a difference
Dear Jordan, how do you deal with copyright strikes? I mean, although it was you who worked on all of these mixes, it doesn't stop UA-cam from demonetizing your videos.
don't really care man - I don't try to make money from youtube ads. it's maybe a half of one percent of my revenue
bro, thank you so much!!!!!! Ive send this vid to my producer-friend who always chasing that super-duper-crazyass drums but it always sounds like crap...
Have you ever thought about using the drum kit actually recorded in the mix to produce the samples? e.g. you could just record some independent snare hits as the sample so you can make adjustments without getting bleed from the rest of the kit.
A lot of people have started doing that in the last 5 years.
Haha makes sense, don't stay in your own way with some "rules that came from the Mixing Engineer unwritten holy book" haha
Just focus and do what you need to do to get a killer Sound, thanks for sharing and always reminding us 🤘
lol when he played the crazy snare it sounded awesome instead of bad, like i know a lot of the time this is totally true... but in this instance i think it sounded sick with the crazy deep cannon snare. at least till the lower gain solo started.
I agree for sure but when the client/customer absolutely won’t budge on this aspect and they absolutely need that ridiculously huge sound.. gotta finish the project and hit payday.
Honestly I agree. For most metal instances tho I feel a lot of mainstream music listeners don’t really care. Unless the mix as a whole is pretty unbalanced and levels are way off. Then I feel most average listeners won’t be to critical about the samples. I do get what your saying tho as to much sample to much machine sound is really harsh to the ears.
Dude you’re tripping about the intervals track with the louder drums. That sound rips dude, both the raw AND that one are sick. Period.
Personally, that first example with the big reverb treated drum was good in my opinion but I understand a little about taking into consideration the sound of the drums in relation to the music. Adding an 808 would have probably not have suited any of those examples.
Where can I get the "Cannon snare" sample? :-) Thx
Awesome video ! You said everything about the use of drum samples in 5 min :)
The album Sempiternal by BMTH is a good exemple of BAD samples use. Snare and Kick are absolutely not natural and doesn't serve the songs at all. (just my opinion)
That’s hundred percent true!👍
LOL that "Cannon Snare" sounds VERY familiar ;)
It's honestly such an iconic sample that kind of changed the game for metalcore back in like 2011. Truly revolutionary.
I love the way that snare sounds. Do you know how I'd be able to access it?
@@MykeyMassacre Cameron Mizell (the producer for Memphis May Fire, Woe, is Me, Sleeping With Sirens etc.) is the creator of that sample. He used to have it for sale on his studio's website, but the site was taken down months ago for some reason.
@@jorgevalentine ahh ok, thanks
@@jorgevalentine I asked Cameron about it, he said it was under construction so hopefully that means we will see a return soon. I was actually able to find links to the challenger and fop kits online recently
People end up losing so much in tone, with that modern drum sound. You'll have conflicts in frequencies that most guys can't fix.
1:12 lol the CNC debate amongst guitar builders
i think its case by case. in all honest crazy kick and loaded snares work great and slam hard for heavy music, but i disagree in using it for pop. Joey Sturgis uses crazy snares but in specifics along with bass drop and a rifle sound.
... but can I get that gunshot snare sample? 😂 jk
it’s part of the chango studios fop kit, i have the free download link in a google drive if anyone wants it.
It's the snare from Chango FOP Kit I (part I, _specifically_)
@@rileyxdmsk1268 sure id love tho have it!
What trigger plugin is that?
Totally agree - there's a lot of hype about what sounds 'awesome'.
What's thd name of the song and the band?
gavin harrison being a fucking beast does help too
Hate to say it but the latest Good Tiger album has me feeling like what you describe!
LOVE IT
Lol , You made me laugh !! I really enjoy learning from you. 'ALL THE ANGRY COMMENTS" Very funny! Thanks again, keep them coming !
I feel like those overblown samples in the first example would actually sound good if they were just lowered in the mix, because the timbre and reverb are nice, but as you said, overall, they're just over the top, and too much. They literally cause me mental fatigue just listening as you have it here. Holy fuck, that's bad, and you're absolutely right - a lot of distinctively non-hard rock and non-metal genres, some producers are basically using full sample replacement or programmed drums that are the epitome of loudness wars, cancerous hyperbole, just plain bad metal mixing trope levels of "WHAT THE ffffaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa--FUUUUUCCCCCCCKKKKKK"
i really appreciate this sentiment. it's been a long time coming. drums don't sound like drums anymore, and it's nauseating. "pop punk" records in particular are guilty of using overly aggressive drum sounds in places they don't belong. Capstan, Belmont, really anything made in the last 5-10 years.
Because of the title I expected to hear drums without samples. :-)
Glenn Fricker left the chat
:D Haha, yeh, he's still recovering from learning that Peace Sells had drum samples!
Samples suck. Long live Glenn.
@@beatzguy nah, Glenn's mixes suck. Still long live him though.
@@stevedendera yeah you're goddamn right sir!
His channel is more focused on entertainment. That's what got him that popular.
But when it comes to his mixes, i hear so many things that are very weird. I know, it's all subjective and all, but compared to other great mixers like jordan here, he is kinda amateur(ish). But hey, music shouldn't be compared.
Who?