With this SoundX card the Plus/4 came to the same legue as ATARI ST, Sinclair 128K, AMSTRAD CPC or even MSX. :-) It's time to transfer "Robocop Spectrum Title Music" to +4, the best version of all. BUT we already have (and quite avaliable) SID Card with those thousand fantastic C64 tunes and musics! We can play them too, as the +4 is also 6502 based machine. Sukkopera made his ReSeed card to able to follow the demands via order from PCB manufacturers. The Sound Expander compatible module with full MIDI In/Out port is also available (that Yamaha 3526 sound is comparable to PC Adlib/SoundBlaster 1.0, and better than the MSX's MSX-MUSIC standard by Panasonic). Thanks to Sukkopera, I can create this on soon. I plan to connect this MIDI out device to a Yamaha XG Midi external module, like MU50 or MU100. That will be MUSIC :-) Also Revox from Sukkopera the 8bit DAC on Memory Expansion available too. 🙂This is known on ZX Spectrum Music Machine, and on PC (as a single channel) Covox. DigiMooz is on the way too. It has 4 channel DAC + AY, and C64 DigiBlaster compatible. So when the PCB is ready, and a MOD player will support it, it will be a C64 SoundMax compatible device, comparable to an Amiga 4 channel MOD (or maybe even clearer) If you add these together, and the 256 or 512KB RAM is a reality on the platform (I have 512KB SRAM with the Lotharek module), we can say one of the most versatile music playback platform will be born soon 🙂and you can play all these together with the legendary TED sound 😀 (on MSX you have AY and had no SID, on ATARI have no SID, just emulation, on C64 you have no AY, on Spectrum there is no SID card, on Amiga just SID and AY emulation, etc, etc).
This is an amazing addition. I wish I'd done more research! I really need to dig more into the Plus/4 community. There's some cool stuff going on that I was not aware of. That memory expansion looks amazing.
Just a remark on your sound chip comparison chart: the SID does have triangle, sawtooth and rectangle/pulse waves (the latter with variable duty cycle), but its fourth waveform is noise, not sine wave. Also in the chart, instead of FM synthesis it should mention oscillator sync. While the SID chip does allow for very basic frequency modulation (taking the oputput of OSC3 to modulate the pitch of OSC1 or 2), this is rather limited in its application and hardly comparable to what a real FM synth like the Yamaha OPL can do.
I agree with your comments, the SID is an incredibly complex and well featured sound chip. It has two weaknesses AFAIS: only three channels (like AY and several Yamahas) and the missing 8 bit DAC output (the same why Adlib could not compete with the similar sounding Soundblaster 2.0). The funny thing about 264 series, that it is well equipped to support an external sound card, as it has an Audio Out/In pins on the Expansion port, so when our hardware gurus added SID card, the sound could be easily mixed to the built in TED sound 2 channels, or can be used as an extra 4 bit digi channel.
The music of Stop The Express made me laugh: it is an old hungarian pop song called “when the train starts my heart almost breaks” :) (Demjén Ferenc - Mikor elindul a vonat)
This is great -- thanks for reviewing and sharing the history of this project! If I'm not mistaken, there is a similar project that uses a MOS 6581/8580 SID on an expansion cartridge for the 264 series. Quick question -- in the NTSC hardware demos, I swear I can hear some voices exclusively from one speaker and not both. Is that your capture/editing at play? 🙂
Yep! There is a SID equivilent. I've just recently been made aware of those. Hoping maybe someone will offer to send one my way. That's not the capture, but I did learn from the developer that there are some issues with early demos and for some reason, the DigiMuz needs to "warm up!" Not literally, just programmatically.
No love for the C116? :( Sure it may be smaller in size than the +4 and C16, and was released mostly in Germany in very limited numbers, and its keyboard is admittedly pretty awful, but it exists too, gosh darn it! #snark
I have a lot of love for the C116 and wish I could find one! It's my new dream machine. It would have appeared if I owned one but you are correct, it should have been mentioned.
If you want me to connect you, send me an email. Link in my profile. Thanks for the offer to borrow the PAL Plus/4. I might reach out some day. One thing I would like to do is convert my C16 to support both PAL and NTSC.
I think its funny that the stock plus 4 and c16 still had more advanced sound than a 3000$ pc from the late 80s or even a 6000$ laptop from the early 90s
These 90s eastern (or central don't get mad) European coders could really get the most out of these older systems were they got a 2nd life in the 90s the games look much more complex than the stuff that came out when it was new. they can compete with nes and game boy games and make the system appear more powerful .but why is it like this ? did they just have more knowledge because the system has been out for so long .or had developers just changed their mindset and did developers in the 80s think nobody wanted longer and more complex games and only wanted arcade like games or adventure games. and for some reason they didn't think people would like in game music .
I think this is true of most systems of the time. The longer they were on the market, the more programmers were able to learn about the hardware, exploit capabilities, and learn from each other. And it continues today. C64OS is a great modern example for the Commodore 64. We also benefit from inexpensive RAM upgrades that we didn't have in the day.
Hey. Great video and great summary of Digimuz history! :) Note to the excerpt from 9:12 and 9:42, I don't know why it plays back weird sometimes. Perhaps it is related to the conversion from the tapes when I recovered the programs. On the cassettes everything was copy-protected - I used various techniques and with some I still have a problem today :) Perhaps breaking the protection influenced that not every time the demo plays back correctly, and I can no longer correct this - 30 years I have not programmed C+4 :) Sometimes it doesn't play the sounds at all, or there are track offsets, and sometimes everything is ok and I think it will stay that way :) Best regards BKP
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, BKP and can't thank you enough for sharing your background information. I too noticed those errors but didn't note them in the video since I wasn't sure the issue. Like you state, the issues seem to clear up after they play for a few seconds.
The AY was also used by the Vectrex as well as by the Mockingboard sound cards for the Apple II. You could use 2 Mockingboards in a single Apple II which each sporting 2 AYs. As for the YM2149, it was famously - or infamously - used by the Atari ST since Yamaha wouldn’t sell the YM2151 for inclusion in the ST. So this device’s tracker should be able to play ST MODs so long as RAM isn’t an issue.
While the video shows the datasheet for the YM2149, it's worth noting that the DigiMuz is actually based on the AY-3-8910 chip. Although these chips are similar, they are not identical. As far as my understanding goes, the YM2149 might process data faster than the AY. In the case of the C= Plus/4, the potential bottleneck could be the processor. There are memory expansion cards available for the Plus/4, such as Hannes' with 256 kB of RAM or Lotharek's with 512kB.
@@krzycho751Partially you are right. On the other hand, at border area (when the TED has no direct influence) the C16 CPU's raw power is comparable to a 3.5MHz Z80. Under BASIC, due to the continuous RAM/RAM switching, and in the TED area (shared RAM issue) this machine is just comparable to C64 speed, but with your own assembly code, and even without screen limitattion this CPU is a beast. And you can even switch the CPU to a 2.115 MHz mode to just by setting few registers, so then this CPU can bring the speed of a 4MHz Z80, this is 2.15x speed of a PAL C64.
@@MMSZoli The amount of knowledge you and your colleagues from the Hungarian Plus/4 scene share on plus4world is amazing. I appreciate your efforts in keeping our machines running with new ideas!
Good catch. I think I forgot to update the draft version of my table. I need to make a few other corrections as well and will get that updated on the companion blog post.
Thanks, Rudy. This one took some time. I really had to start from scratch and I even had to deal with some problematic hardware but in the end, I finally got this video out there.
And here ya go…you were right! I don't get to read that many times myself, but glad to start your 2024 the right way! The DigiMuz is a blast. I just wish there were more titles that took advantage of the Yamaha chip. Maybe this will spark some interest in the demo community.
@@retroCombs there are literallyhundreds of extreme good AY musics, so next to the SID this package could be available for the scene. Don't forget the Adlib compatible OPL1 sound card is also in progress, and a 4 channel DAC on User port is also in the way. Did I forget to mention the full featured MIDI Out card, or the single DAC music card on Expansion port? This is Christmas! :-)
You probably thought I'd never get this one online! Thanks again for the opportunity and for making me aware and sending me a DigiMuz. It's a great addition to my collection and I'm hopeful this will inspire other programmers to a look, if only in emulation.
This cart is nice, but is has some flaws, it does not mix the AY channels with TED channels, so, instead of 5+noise channels, you only got 3+noise. And, there are some SID clones available (why would you use AY instead one of those SID clones?) Nano SwinSID, ARMSID, SwinSID Ultimate and FpgaSID. Get SID sound for TED machines.
I believe that, in the case of a hobby project like this and all other expansions for the Plus/4 and C16, the right question is: Why not? Why not make the Plus/4 more versatile in its sound capabilities than any other 8-bit retro computer? It transforms the C64's younger brother into the perfect platform for people writing demos. Of course, it's just my point of view.
With this SoundX card the Plus/4 came to the same legue as ATARI ST, Sinclair 128K, AMSTRAD CPC or even MSX. :-)
It's time to transfer "Robocop Spectrum Title Music" to +4, the best version of all.
BUT we already have (and quite avaliable) SID Card with those thousand fantastic C64 tunes and musics! We can play them too, as the +4 is also 6502 based machine.
Sukkopera made his ReSeed card to able to follow the demands via order from PCB manufacturers.
The Sound Expander compatible module with full MIDI In/Out port is also available (that Yamaha 3526 sound is comparable to PC Adlib/SoundBlaster 1.0, and better than the MSX's MSX-MUSIC standard by Panasonic). Thanks to Sukkopera, I can create this on soon. I plan to connect this MIDI out device to a Yamaha XG Midi external module, like MU50 or MU100. That will be MUSIC :-)
Also Revox from Sukkopera the 8bit DAC on Memory Expansion available too. 🙂This is known on ZX Spectrum Music Machine, and on PC (as a single channel) Covox.
DigiMooz is on the way too. It has 4 channel DAC + AY, and C64 DigiBlaster compatible. So when the PCB is ready, and a MOD player will support it, it will be a C64 SoundMax compatible device, comparable to an Amiga 4 channel MOD (or maybe even clearer)
If you add these together, and the 256 or 512KB RAM is a reality on the platform (I have 512KB SRAM with the Lotharek module), we can say one of the most versatile music playback platform will be born soon 🙂and you can play all these together with the legendary TED sound 😀
(on MSX you have AY and had no SID, on ATARI have no SID, just emulation, on C64 you have no AY, on Spectrum there is no SID card, on Amiga just SID and AY emulation, etc, etc).
This is MMS himself! :) Thank you for putting it all in one post. What Sukkopera is doing for the Plus/4 community is incredible!
This is an amazing addition. I wish I'd done more research! I really need to dig more into the Plus/4 community. There's some cool stuff going on that I was not aware of. That memory expansion looks amazing.
So much more to learn about the Plus/4 scene. Thanks for getting me started down this rabbit hole! 😀
Just a remark on your sound chip comparison chart: the SID does have triangle, sawtooth and rectangle/pulse waves (the latter with variable duty cycle), but its fourth waveform is noise, not sine wave. Also in the chart, instead of FM synthesis it should mention oscillator sync. While the SID chip does allow for very basic frequency modulation (taking the oputput of OSC3 to modulate the pitch of OSC1 or 2), this is rather limited in its application and hardly comparable to what a real FM synth like the Yamaha OPL can do.
Thanks for the clarification! I'll try and find some time to update the chart on the companion blog post page.
I agree with your comments, the SID is an incredibly complex and well featured sound chip. It has two weaknesses AFAIS: only three channels (like AY and several Yamahas) and the missing 8 bit DAC output (the same why Adlib could not compete with the similar sounding Soundblaster 2.0).
The funny thing about 264 series, that it is well equipped to support an external sound card, as it has an Audio Out/In pins on the Expansion port, so when our hardware gurus added SID card, the sound could be easily mixed to the built in TED sound 2 channels, or can be used as an extra 4 bit digi channel.
Wow, thanks for covering this. I had never heard of this cartridge before, understandably given its origins.
Welcome. Glad to share this little piece of Commodore history.
The music of Stop The Express made me laugh: it is an old hungarian pop song called “when the train starts my heart almost breaks” :) (Demjén Ferenc - Mikor elindul a vonat)
That's an amazing addition. I would have missed that one since I'm in the U.S.
This was a fun vid! Awesome of you shared this interesting piece of Commodore history and sharing it with a wider audience :)
Thanks! I enjoy learning more about it and putting this one together.
This is great -- thanks for reviewing and sharing the history of this project! If I'm not mistaken, there is a similar project that uses a MOS 6581/8580 SID on an expansion cartridge for the 264 series. Quick question -- in the NTSC hardware demos, I swear I can hear some voices exclusively from one speaker and not both. Is that your capture/editing at play? 🙂
Yep! There is a SID equivilent. I've just recently been made aware of those. Hoping maybe someone will offer to send one my way. That's not the capture, but I did learn from the developer that there are some issues with early demos and for some reason, the DigiMuz needs to "warm up!" Not literally, just programmatically.
Snark snark! 😂😂😂
Snark accepted! 😂
No love for the C116? :(
Sure it may be smaller in size than the +4 and C16, and was released mostly in Germany in very limited numbers, and its keyboard is admittedly pretty awful, but it exists too, gosh darn it! #snark
I have a lot of love for the C116 and wish I could find one! It's my new dream machine. It would have appeared if I owned one but you are correct, it should have been mentioned.
Hi I would like to own one! 🙂
BTW, I got two Plus/4 maschines (PAL), could share one....
If you want me to connect you, send me an email. Link in my profile. Thanks for the offer to borrow the PAL Plus/4. I might reach out some day. One thing I would like to do is convert my C16 to support both PAL and NTSC.
I think its funny that the stock plus 4 and c16 still had more advanced sound than a 3000$ pc from the late 80s or even a 6000$ laptop from the early 90s
And I am still amazed that we don't have a Commodore brand today going strong. Such a missed opportunity and example of mismanagement.
These 90s eastern (or central don't get mad) European coders could really get the most out of these older systems were they got a 2nd life in the 90s the games look much more complex than the stuff that came out when it was new. they can compete with nes and game boy games and make the system appear more powerful .but why is it like this ? did they just have more knowledge because the system has been out for so long .or had developers just changed their mindset and did developers in the 80s think nobody wanted longer and more complex games and only wanted arcade like games or adventure games. and for some reason they didn't think people would like in game music .
I think this is true of most systems of the time. The longer they were on the market, the more programmers were able to learn about the hardware, exploit capabilities, and learn from each other. And it continues today. C64OS is a great modern example for the Commodore 64. We also benefit from inexpensive RAM upgrades that we didn't have in the day.
Hey. Great video and great summary of Digimuz history! :)
Note to the excerpt from 9:12 and 9:42, I don't know why it plays back weird sometimes. Perhaps it is related to the conversion from the tapes when I recovered the programs. On the cassettes everything was copy-protected - I used various techniques and with some I still have a problem today :) Perhaps breaking the protection influenced that not every time the demo plays back correctly, and I can no longer correct this - 30 years I have not programmed C+4 :) Sometimes it doesn't play the sounds at all, or there are track offsets, and sometimes everything is ok and I think it will stay that way :)
Best regards
BKP
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, BKP and can't thank you enough for sharing your background information. I too noticed those errors but didn't note them in the video since I wasn't sure the issue. Like you state, the issues seem to clear up after they play for a few seconds.
The AY was also used by the Vectrex as well as by the Mockingboard sound cards for the Apple II. You could use 2 Mockingboards in a single Apple II which each sporting 2 AYs. As for the YM2149, it was famously - or infamously - used by the Atari ST since Yamaha wouldn’t sell the YM2151 for inclusion in the ST. So this device’s tracker should be able to play ST MODs so long as RAM isn’t an issue.
Awesome addition! Thanks and this one is pinned for others.
While the video shows the datasheet for the YM2149, it's worth noting that the DigiMuz is actually based on the AY-3-8910 chip. Although these chips are similar, they are not identical. As far as my understanding goes, the YM2149 might process data faster than the AY. In the case of the C= Plus/4, the potential bottleneck could be the processor. There are memory expansion cards available for the Plus/4, such as Hannes' with 256 kB of RAM or Lotharek's with 512kB.
You are correct. I put up the wrong data sheet. Rats. I need to look into those memory cards.
@@krzycho751Partially you are right.
On the other hand, at border area (when the TED has no direct influence) the C16 CPU's raw power is comparable to a 3.5MHz Z80.
Under BASIC, due to the continuous RAM/RAM switching, and in the TED area (shared RAM issue) this machine is just comparable to C64 speed, but with your own assembly code, and even without screen limitattion this CPU is a beast.
And you can even switch the CPU to a 2.115 MHz mode to just by setting few registers, so then this CPU can bring the speed of a 4MHz Z80, this is 2.15x speed of a PAL C64.
@@MMSZoli The amount of knowledge you and your colleagues from the Hungarian Plus/4 scene share on plus4world is amazing. I appreciate your efforts in keeping our machines running with new ideas!
@5:28 The VIC-20's VIC-I chip actually has 4 sound channels.
Good catch. I think I forgot to update the draft version of my table. I need to make a few other corrections as well and will get that updated on the companion blog post.
Excellent video and work! Very cool adapter. Thanks for sharing
Thanks, Rudy. This one took some time. I really had to start from scratch and I even had to deal with some problematic hardware but in the end, I finally got this video out there.
Awesome video! I love my Plus/4 and was super surprised at how awesome it really is. What a cool project.
I really enjoy the Plus/4. It's a shame they didn't put in more RAM, a SID, and Sprites. But I guess that's the C128! 😂
A-ha! Told you there was a music solution for the C=plus/4. Glad you found it - it looks/sounds quite stunning!
And here ya go…you were right! I don't get to read that many times myself, but glad to start your 2024 the right way! The DigiMuz is a blast. I just wish there were more titles that took advantage of the Yamaha chip. Maybe this will spark some interest in the demo community.
@@retroCombs there are literallyhundreds of extreme good AY musics, so next to the SID this package could be available for the scene. Don't forget the Adlib compatible OPL1 sound card is also in progress, and a 4 channel DAC on User port is also in the way. Did I forget to mention the full featured MIDI Out card, or the single DAC music card on Expansion port? This is Christmas! :-)
@MMSZoli Agree! Good stuff. 🎄
What a start of 2024! :) Thank you!
You probably thought I'd never get this one online! Thanks again for the opportunity and for making me aware and sending me a DigiMuz. It's a great addition to my collection and I'm hopeful this will inspire other programmers to a look, if only in emulation.
This cart is nice, but is has some flaws, it does not mix the AY channels with TED channels, so, instead of 5+noise channels, you only got 3+noise. And, there are some SID clones available (why would you use AY instead one of those SID clones?) Nano SwinSID, ARMSID, SwinSID Ultimate and FpgaSID. Get SID sound for TED machines.
I believe that, in the case of a hobby project like this and all other expansions for the Plus/4 and C16, the right question is: Why not? Why not make the Plus/4 more versatile in its sound capabilities than any other 8-bit retro computer? It transforms the C64's younger brother into the perfect platform for people writing demos. Of course, it's just my point of view.
@@krzycho751 but having a demos for Plus/4 and C16 that uses SID chip, why a non compatible expansion?
Agree! Let's mix the channels for even more capabilities. I have not tried a SID on the TED series. Would love to give that a try at some point.
@krzycho751 And it's just another fun project to add to the scene!
I don't see much to comb here
😂 Fate has a sense of humor.
Wow, interesting video, thanks a lot!
Welcome. Glad you found it interesting.
What a pleasant surprise!
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@retroCombs oh, very much!
👍🏻