Everyone out there pulling on threads. It’s a nice bit of consistency across the different stories. Because of the way Cleon I introduced the prison and the idea that he offered to explain about Demerzel’s origins, I assumed that the prison was created for her. I was surprised to see people thought it might be the other way around. Let me know what you think.
Oh def. We’ve seen Dusk at the end of his life. There aren’t skeletons around indicating any other Cleons were imprisoned here. My only question is why would Cleon I make her his forever heir only to make a prison for her? Mayhap a failsafe? Like all Dusk’s at decrepit they question all the actions that came before? Very intrigued for next weeks revelations
Okay lots to like in this episode. The plotting between the Foundation and Empire threads is working well. Also nice to see some reveals on what is going on with Demerzel. The plotting between Sareth and the Cleons is fun to watch although I suspect Dusk likely has the key to re-unifying the Cleons as there is almost certainly a damned good reason why Cleon the 1st set things up the way he did - even if that is him being manipulated by Demerzel. There is an intreiguing chance for Demerzel as we know her to be written out for a while as the Cleon's rebel against her influence which likely just hastens the Empire's fall. (Working on the theory that she likely has been trying to keep the Empire stable as a 'best of the bad choices' kinda thing.) I loved the rescue and the chaos it caused. It also was nice to see the vault Seldon show some compassion to Sermack. However the artifice of the writers shows a bit too much. We now have a *fourth* effective immortal running around affecting things. So Cleon (be he clone or digital), Hari, Demerzel and now Tellem as well? This runs the risk that we will only ever have the 'supra' humans running things. I hope that the series course corrects - the potential is there for Bel Riose to once again force the Emperor's hand giving regular mortal humanity agency. Much as Hober Mallow's shenanigans has. But it is too much immortality to be comfortable. Especially given we have a fifth immortal of some form in the shape of Kalle, who we haven't got to the bottom of her deal yet either. It again seems to be an undermining of the concepts of the books. A lot of psycho-history was the cleverness of the idea that humanity in aggregate behaves in a fashion akin to the ideal gas law (Or Boyle's law I think it was) in that while individuals remain hard to predict the overall behaviour of the population as a whole does. The series is now underpinning everything with less predictions and more the machinations of various individual immortals which again is drifting away from the ethos of the books. Yes there is opportunity for fun story telling but once all the story cards are laid out on the table for all to see I have a sneaking suspicion it isn't going to be nearly as cleverly thought through. We shall see I guess.
Oh and one other point. The Foundation isn't a control group - that seems to me to be a misuse of the idea of what a control group is. In experimentation terms a control group is one that isn't affected by the treatment or technique being tested. Usually by being given a placebo unawares as part of a double blind study. It is used as a reference against which the population groups who *are* being given treatment will be measured to see what the effect of the treatment actually is. Terminus is being actively manipulated by Vault Seldon so hardly counts - unless we are arguing that Vault Seldon is actually the placebo in this case. Something this episode kinda undermines with the way he keeps steering things. His antagonism of Brother Day is clearly part of the overall grand plan manipulation that is meant to be going on. (And Brother Day isn't being nearly as clever as he thinks he is with the moves he is making, a detail the series is nicely portraying.)
Your Recaps have filled in so many little things that I have missed through the past couple seasons it's amazing. So thank you for that. They're enjoyable and informative. Also you have a very easy voice to listen to. You really should try your hand at narration I think you'd be a success. One thing that was obvious all season is Damerzell was up to something. My first guess around episode 2 was that she was setting up conditions that allow her to break her programming. I'm also dying to find out why are the events with Gail and Salvor behind in time. I'm almost certain that the physical Harry is either still alive or never existed. I'd be curious to know if others think the same or I'm completely off base.
oh i think she was the First, the break the laws,of robots. the was captured and held until she and cleon came to some kind of understanding, or as punishment for trying to fight empire she must perserve empire going forward, but oh yeah i am so amped to see the next episode great vidoe pete!
This episode ompletely engulfed my soul from the start to finish - possibly the best episode of the series so far. MAN .... I am hooked and loving Goyer's take on Asimov's story!
@@PetePeppers1 we're ALL looking forward to you talking to Goyer next week Pete - please drain him for all the information you can and also tell him that he's created one of the MOST visually stunning Sci-Fi series ever made!
The revelation of Demerzel being the real power behind Empire has been in front of us all along. And Tellem's description of what happens to someone after she possesses them was horrifying. These last two episodes are going to be memorable for sure, and I just hate the fact that we may not see what happens next for about 2 years
Tellem's description of what happens to someone after she possesses them was oddly similiar to Get Out (2017). In that movie the other person kinda falls in to the darkness of it's brain and loose control. Also in movie Self/less (2015) when one's consciousness was transferred from one body to another, they had to take the pill to silence other person. All absolutely horrifying.
I've always assumed since season 1 that Demerzel was actually the one controlling the throne. She's basically a walking supercomputer with thousands of years experience watching humanity so it just made sense. What has me baffled is the prison part. Prison for who??
I am not entirely convinced about Demerzel. She seemed genuinely distressed and helpless while poisoning that Zephyr religious leader lady in season 1 at the orders of Day. So, I don't really understand the power dynamics. Is she a servant? An entity that pulling the strings and playing some kind of a long game? A bit of both?
@@SlavaTaras Even in the books there has been debate about whether or not Daneel/Demerzel was a hidden servant or a hidden power controlling Mankind. So you are onto something here. There is definitely a big twist to it all, and it will be interesting to see if Goyer engages this theme.
It was fun. But here is an interesting question - if the ships' wake as it came in disrupted Typhon's Collar and the Emperor's aura, why didn't it disrupt Demerzel? Surely a much more complicated and delicate mechanism than either of the previous two?
@@philipbanks7730 because convenient writing.. star trek discovery level of writing. why are there no defences on the planet nor ANYTHING in orbit to challenge his ship flying away?
I kinda knew it. Because firstly the place is so stable and predictable in a way that only works if it's regulated by a computer. And given that Cleon is a person who is capable of huge changes, it would be hard to imagine him being predictable ... Unless he is manipulated and guided by a calculating presence. Also, there is no way Cleon + Demerzel don't have access to whatever immortality tech that Harry used ... And that tech is far more stable and predictable is ever you wanted to be immortal ... But the cloning route is far more flexible for manipulation. Finally, the fact that Harry can predict the whole thing points to an over arching presence that guides things and that decision making system is what the computer is using to predict the future ... So Demerzel makes Harry's computer possible ... Demerzel is both the strength and weakness of the dynasty.
@@W1ngSMC and when she pushed dusk to the execution chamber , the only way she could do that is if she had some kind of abnormal mental control over the cleons
Other than that Demerzel is an alter ego for R. Daneel Olivaw in the novels and makes it all the way to the end of the entire Asimov universe as the books revealed many decades ago.
The idea that Demerzel is still actually serving Cleon I rather than the new Cleons, was definitely a shock, but it just made everything make sense all of a sudden! How she so casually killed Dawn last season, for example. This was an episode of reveals, important reveals. Can't wait for next week!
It would’ve been more interesting if she were serving robot kind and was laying the destruction of mankind via the destruction of empire. That would make more sense to me. For a robot, waiting thousands of years for men to self destruct wouldn’t be too much time. And would be easier than trying to fight them, since they lost the war.
from what w've seen of demerzel she doesnt want to destroy humanity. And assuming she does because she's a robot is inacurate, since all robot werent on the same side @@antoniao7439
I think she was imprisoned there and Cleon 1 found her and let her out. Cleon 1 legit seems to have been the person who really saw her as his heir. He says it should have us looking down on all we built
@@Jon_EL Dusk was telling the story of the robot wars. He mentioned that robots were fighting robots, so maybe Demerzel was one of the robots who fought for the humans? And ever since then Cleon 1 had an undying devotion to her, and she to him?
@@bbbl67 perhaps idk how that works on the timeline. We know she predates the Genetic Dynasty and Cleon 1 is worried she wont be safe after he dies. She says she is loyal to Empire but he asks will the Empire be loyal to you…That combined with the fact that the clones are programmed to never question her presence and there is a straight up Hari type data ghost of Cleon 1 hanging around casts alot of doubt on how absolute the clones power is.
This series gets better and better with every episode. This is sci-fi at its finest. I don’t care what anybody says. Apple would be insane not to keep this series going for eight seasons.
Good episode. Really liked how it's all coming back around to Demerzel, because I think that she's the second crisis. She may have to take out this Day to maintain control and inadvertently realign events with the map and psycho history. Really like Rue and Dusk and their relationship. Wondering if we'll get to see his memories restored. The scene with Hari and Salvor was rewarding as Hari sussed it all out. Constance and Hober getting caught was funny. Poor Becky. She pierced Empire's hide.
Easily the best episode of this season (so far). Jared Harris performing as different Seldon variants steels the show in a way Lee Pace did last season. I liked the analogy between the Cleons and Seldon all being kept in the dark by their creators. Can’t wait for the next episode.
how was it fantastic? they have no defences neither on the ground or in orbit to stop the ship from flying away normally. Its as bad writing as can be.
@@FireHam Remember that Empire has a monopoly on faster-than-light travel. They have never experienced a ship like that so no need to make orbital defense since any fleet would be decimated before even reaching Trantor. Please. Keep your stupid opinions to your stupid self.
@@FireHam Go check out the Season 2 previews - Not sure who they belong to (Spacers, Foundation aligned worlds, ???) but there is a hell of a firefight coming to Empires fleet soon
@@FireHam Empire never seems to have heavy protection, even when on another world, in the exceptions we've seen Day outside of Trantor. Them not being heavily defenced in the heart of the empire seems exactly right.
@@artificialgravitas8954 He's growing on me. I've spent most of the season writing him off as a complete idiot but his idea of making himself his envoy to The Foundation is pretty impressive. Personally I hope Bel gets to kill him because that's a win Bel deserves.
@@artificialgravitas8954 I’m with ya… I loved the character but disliked what he still became. I think it was the symbolism behind his searching for identity despite that he’s supposed to specifically not have an identity aside from that of Cleon I that I enjoyed.
I'm thinking the next episode will be Demerzel's back story. I think Salvor will find a way to save Gael. I get the feeling that Day is walking into his own doom. I am now convinced Tellem is The Mule, and will transfer her consciousness to the little boy who will now rage against Gael and Salvor for what they did
This is what I'm thinking as well... People had speculated that Josaih (the young boy in the group) will become the Mule, and this would be an excellent reason why that would happen...
I have a bad feeling your theory is right but I really hope it isn't. Part of what made the Mule a tragic figure in the books and recoverable for the Seldon plan was the fact that he was both unique and sterile (which is why he is called the Mule). Which meant while his lifetime was a massive abberation to the predicted path his death largely starts the undoing of the deviations he caused. That and the nudgings of the Second Foundation to course correct things back. If we have a body hopping Mule who just gets more powerful with each hop then you have a Mule whose potential for ongoing disruption is potentially infinite...
There's been no doubt in my mind for three episodes that she is connected to the mule. I thought it was the little boy but had never occurred to me that it was actually her reincarnated or incarnated. This show makes it very difficult to know which tense to use.
This season has been absolutely excellent Sci Fi and story telling. The actors of this show are chewing up screen time week by week. Big props to the show runners and writers. Also, I'd suggest a section at the end of your videos that goes over changes, things that weren't present, and things changed or expanded upon. 3/4 of the video be a recap, last 1/4 be a little spoiler/expansion section to expand and talk about the core works.
It would be interesting, but since the show has kept only the names and the main functions of each character, the hypotheses about the show based on the books could be endless!! I tried it myself only to be disproved in the next episode!!
I have a theory. What if the Robot uprising actually ended up with the Robots winning. And though the Robots could have wiped the Humans completely out. They decided to be merciful and let them live in the milky way galaxy while they took Earth, the birthplace of humanity for themselves. And they travelled to other galaxies as well, something the spacers were supposed to do. As punishment they erased all memory of Earth and where it was. With Demerzel being the watcher that looks over humanity to ensure compliance with the eternal peace.
what is clear is that this is demerzels empire but only if cleon is involved Here is what i think happened ( potential spoiler):- - an emperor got addicted to her and in the heat of passion and carelessness he accidentally GAVE her freedom from the three laws to enable their relationship to move forward, he didn't suspect that he had also freed all the other robots. some robots chose violence when denied humanity but they run into the fail safe , apparently they were free from everyone except empire, they were paralyzed and slaughtered when one killed an emperor. The so called pogrom. Demerzel got into her lewd ways and hooked cleon , she eventually imprisoned him until she had extracted and discovered every last freedom robots really had , resulting in the creation of the cleons. They do the grudge work all she has to do is maintain the ship. They are programmed to never get rid of her
I did think the eight planets in the painting were our solar system. Could be why demerzel has them on her box but everyone else just thinks they are eight arbitrary planets
In the last episode, Season 2, Episode 7, there was a mentalic acolyte shedding tears when Salvor was in the tide pool. Some people theorized that was Gaal kind making herself look like one of the natives, but this week, we see that was not the case. So what does that mean? I suspect it means there are people within the group that feel that Tellum is bad, but she's too powerful to do anything about. So when Salvor goes to save Gaal, I think there will be a battle within the group. Those on the side of Tellum and those who oppose her, but haven't been able to do anything about it. The question I have is how many on each side.
The kid with the neck scar knew about the table ritual and described it as a great honour. So they probably know full well that Tellum steals bodies, and they probably think that's great. A thoroughly indoctrinated cult.
When Salvor and the guy who pretended to be her ex? kissed! I think he'll help Salvor and Gale! This season is getting better and better! It's So interesting (as I've never read the books) with the sci-fii element world building acting FX! Anyway can't wait and Good Theory Breakdown! Cheers
I think the guy was crying because the mentallics feel things more than “unsighted” people - like when they fry their shrimp. So when Tellum kills or hurts someone, they feel it too.
I dont think so, he seemed very much under Tellem's control, but the boy seems not, and he consider salvor as a friend, I think if she has some kind of help, it will be the little boy@@eddysandland58
Asimov had the original three laws... However, in one of the books there was the fourth law that was developed that allowed robots to circumvent the three laws. The fourth law was actions for the good of humanity. Demerzel's loyalty to Empire I believe is for what she considers the good of humanity. Robots also had the ability to change people's memories.
There are quite a few other laws as well. But i think you are right. I would like to add that while some robots can circumvent sometimes the laws, it is not easy, and in many cases this causes them distress or even death. I think we get to see that when Demerzel kills Dawn in season one.
This episode was a blast, everything is in motion... So far S2 has been a very well done crescendo of events... Only 2 more to go... but i want 10 more!!! :)
I'll have to go back and re-watch the episode as I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned here, but I could swear that I noticed Demerzel sensing the incoming whisper ship a few moments before it actually appeared. Seemed important.
Fucking phenomenal solid 1 hour of SciFi TV. I was captivated every moment. Next episode is supposedly Demerzel's origin story. This show went from above average in Season 1, to my favourite new show I am currently watching.
This was my favorite episode thus far…the intrigue of the Cleons being controlled, the earth solar system being a clue (love the reference back to us), and the who mentallist storyline is all heating up to a cataclysm.
One of the best details for this episode was the active chroma revealing the very human skeleton under the humaniform robot. When Dusk talks about the robot wars and mentions "robot against robot" it makes me really think that Kalle may be Demerzel's counterpart. I still think right hand Hari is alive and that clone Hari was made to die. I am really looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.
I love how they got the egg and atomic reference from the books even so slightly a nod 😂 Also in the same scene Day say “Foundation and Empire” as well as Poly utters the sayings “Violence is the last resort of the incompetent.” Brilliant writing, references for us book fans to muse on, and also an excellent performance by both actors 😊
Plot twist: the end of the season is a complex and bureaucratic legal battle with Cleon suing the Foundation in court, claiming that he is the real owner of the stuff
Since he presumably appoints the judges he should have a good chance of winning. Unless the judges have joined The Church of The Galactic Spirit of course.
@@alanpennie8013 which explains Demerzel dissapointment in the last episode given that all the issue could be addressed easily yet Cleon decided to blow it out of proportion
I'm really enjoying this series. It definitely scratches my chronic sci-fi itch. I rely on these reviews and breakdowns so that I could get some clarification.
Brilliant Analysis. Loved the Big Reveal re “Empress” Demerzel as an archetype of Winoset, Mother of Cleon I and the Last Galactic Empress in E2:6 Looking forward to watching Demerzel assert her “Princeps” Authority as she prepares Galactic War. The only Q left is whether Hari Seldon knew/understood Demerzel’s role in shaping Psycho History. 🍻
It makes it more disturbing to realize that Cleon I, who fashioned Dermezel to look like his mother, also frequently had sex with her (According to Cleon 17th).
They definitely ramped up the action and plot in this episode. Obviously we're going to keep building up towards the climax at the end of the next episode, leading to the conclusion in ep 10. This season has certainly felt a bit slow and meandering up until now but it's finally starting to really pick up pace and get super interesting. So, my guess is that Salvor will rescue Gaal just in time, but because the process was already started, Tellem will have to take Josiah's body, and that will turn him into the Mule. I think Cleon 1 reprogrammed Demerzelle which is why she doesn't obey the 3 laws - when she says she serves Empire, she's serving the concept of THE Empire, not the Emperor. However, this does raise the question of how she couldn't possibly be R. Daneel Oliva then... But maybe she is given the various Cleon's missing memories... (book readers will know where I'm going with this).
The robot-like one phrase response being repeated by Dusk reminded me of Bernard/Arnold from 'Westworld' when he says "What door?" and "Doesn't look like anything to me." to Theresa. So terrifying and exciting at the same time.
It’s funny I told a buddy a couple of weeks ago that Telum was gonna try and take Gaals power, he thought I was crazy. I just didn’t anticipate her trying to take her whole body!
The scene in S1 where Cleon 1 was looking at the star bridge construction w Demerzel ALL makes sense now. They both were so in love w each other that they ensured they would be together ruling the empire for all time! She may eliminate all 3 versions of Cleon, decant new ones, then start the war. Seldon cant account for individual actions and this might include robots like Demerzel. Whew!!! Great writing!!
> Seldon cant account for individual actions and this might include robots like Demerzel. This made me think an interesting thought. One of the main reasons robots fought in the wars is so that they would be recognized for their "humanness", right? If psychohistory must take Demerzel's actions into account, then, effectively, psychohistory "treats" humans and robot as equals, in a way. If this knowledge would reach Demerzel's ears, how would that affect her?
Anybody else ever notice that whenever a middle throne Day leaves the planet, Dawn always seems to get entangled with a woman who has nefarious motives. Lol
Fantastic episode, even more explosive (literally) and revealing than last week's. Looks like Cleon the First (whose consciousness apparently was immortalized in the secret chamber being fed all memories and knowledge from his clones) and his dear Demerzel set up an elaborate system to keep control of the Galactic Empire (and possibly mankind) in his name and instrumentally through his robot majordomo heir. Great acting from Vault-Hari, too, leading to the reveal of the actual timing of the story lines. The Tellum development was also exciting. 👏
One thing I haven't been able to figure out is when Cleon I told Dusk all his temperaments have been accounted for and Dusk asked what do you mean and Cleon I replied "That's none of your concern"......that was so weird. Its almost as if Cleon I doesn't care bout his exponents.
@@daviidon I think we can be pretty sure now that the clones are pawns. Demerzel is their keeper seeing to it that they don’t go too far away and beyond the plan that she follows. But what is the plan that she protects? Was it a plan that Cleon I handed her or was it her plan way before even him? Does she even have a connection to Seldon which is why she is on the trip to Terminus? I also wonder what happens on Trantor with Day and Demerzel away? Sareth and Rue seems to be playing Dawn and Dusk well to come to question both Day and Demerzel. POSSIBLE BOOK SPOILER If going by the book’s one character theorises that a strong emperor can’t be away for long from court before someone moves in on challenge his power. In the show that is Demerzel that is the real emperor. This is the example of a weakness she probably hasn’t calculated for or wasn’t able to steer away from. Is she caught in a situation that she isn’t able to control or has she already prepared for it? I think it’ll be something connected with the crisis coming up…
I took it to mean that he's been immortalized by preserving his consciousness within the stairwell "prison" and that he is being fed all the experiences, memories, and knowledge of each of his successive clones ever since he set up the cloned Cleonic Dynasty. And he gets to interfere with their memories and thoughts through Demerzel. He immediately knew which Dusk clone stood before him, and this Dusk along with the current Dawn already found out that Cleon the First has the largest memory storage of all Cleons.
So maybe I'm reading into it more than I should, but the Robot in the mural - that lead to the secret passage - had a green stripe. In fact I think it was the green stripe that Dusk added chroma to. In Season 2 Episode 5, Dusk and Dawn were looking at a mural of Emperor Algren who had a green stripe - denoting high treason - and they mentioned that for a specific reason, though not evident at the time maybe. They eluded to it that they could be charged with high treason, but I'm sure not all Cleon's are memorialized - after all how would they paint 15? The point I'm trying to get at is, could one robot have been guilty of high treason (Demerzel) and her punishment was to serve Empire for the rest of her existence?
My favorite most love character is Demerzel with Day a close 2nd... Hobers entrance definitely pieced the emperor's armor and we're about to get a war.. I don't even know if i wanna see how OP Demerzel is but can't wait for next episode.. Apple+: Home of Science Fiction?❤
Knowing Tellem can take bodies make it possible for her to be the Gale in the vision and Gale is trapped inside but from the past was able to project to the future, basically Gale was in the sunken place when she had the vision
I was quite literally sitting on the edge of my seat to try to make sure I didn’t miss a single line. Omg this show is incredible. So many “threads” to follow, I love it lol
Agree that the digital version is still with Kalle. The Hari-in-a-body seems like a feint to keep the radiant safe from Tellum. The fact that body-Hari has no memory of what happened keeps that secret safe from the mentallics. So having a body is the only way that Hari can go there and not expose the radiant. Kalle said she would explain more when/if she and Gaal meet again -- again withholding information to prevent Tellum from knowing.
Maybe the boy is another incarnation of Tellum, who becomes the The Mule, which would explain why he is so OP. Many thanks for this insightful video, Pete!
I loved this episode. Demerzel said something in Episode 2 when she was giving Day an update on his assassination attempt investigation. She told Day that Dusk & Dawn's memory audits 'showed no assassination planning or more accurately said they have no memory of planning your assassination' and Day smirked. It made me think she was pulling all the strings with each Cleon. R. Daneel Olivaw is my favorite character in all of written science fiction. I wonder if R. Daneel's plot will be in this show or if Demerzel's story be distinct. I agree with many of the comments that Tellum is the Mule or whatever Salvor does to save Gaal creates the Mule. Thanks for your breakdown. I'd love for you to break down the differences between the show and books. I'm looking forward to Demerzel's backstory in the next episode! Season 2 is so much better than I expected.
Unfortunately, Apple doesn't have the Rights to the "Robots" books by Asimov and they had to negotiate to get the limited references that they are using :-(
@@earld1403 The name 'Daneel', has been negotiated - it will appear somewhere. The empathy for this character is immense, so my hope it it will be used with great care.
Hey Pete Peppers! Thank you for your deeply informed and reflective videos that are timely posted that for many fans and myself serve as perfect post show digestif . Foundation the tv show is expensive in space and time. Without reading the books , concepts such as quantum supposition while stimulating for the minds of viewers are also possible for us to get lost in unthinking. Your recaps are grounding. You drizzle in some book info but more to contrast and let us know that even book readers like Hari Saldon don't have predictive power as the show has remixed things to keep everyone guessing. It makes to the books more interesting and not less.
Here is my idea around for the mentalics and second foundation. Salvor Hardin will enter and disrupted the transfer with the frequency jamming device she has or Gaal will win over her and force her out. either way Tellem will be forced out and take a new male body and become the Mule. When this happens Tellem will loose the hold she has on the rest of the mentalics. God I love this show!😁
dont be harsh, friend. i admit, this episode and the series itself is not as bad as i had assumed initially. however i still believe this is not Foundation - and the original story is THE Foundation. this is something new and different. it should not be called foundation. otherwise great episode, yeah.
Book take on is still better. This is basically a rebellion story, while the book foundation was never meant to be a guerrilla group. But yes, adapted version of the story is still a good story by its own. For now.
@alphadraconis9898 I agree, they've captured the spirit of Foundation (Psycho History as a group dynamic, the creation of the Second Foundation that we are seeing now, how Foundation is growing even as Empire is declining, the shift of Foundation from a religious movement into a mercantile movement, etc) But there is no way that I would want to watch a straight adaptation of the Books. The books were all Cerebral with little inter-personal relationships. And the fact that every book had a completely different set of characters would never work as a TV series. As one of the Authors of The Expanse", in his Podcast Ty Franck has mentioned several times the difficulty of translating a book into a screenplay because the entire nature of the medium is so different. Even though he was on set AND helping the screen writers from the very beginning of Season 1, he mentioned that he didn't try to adapt any of *his own writing* into a screenplay until the 3rd season. It took him that long to get the hang of adapting his own book into a screenplay (note that Daniel Abraham co-wrote The Expanse but was not on set like Ty was).
@@earld1403 The books were just dialogues. What would have been so difficult about turning dialogues into a TV series. It can't get any easier than that. They wouldn't even have needed a script writer. They could have just used the books as script.
This show is really coming into it's own. I've read the Foundation Series and loved it. With the departure from the source material this is becoming great scifi
*6:57* It makes me laugh how even though this is science fiction with all of this advanced technology and a vast galactic empire, this still falls back on the trope of someone thinking that if they know a prophecy they can act in a way so that it doesn't come true! 😄
Great episode great show I’m super excited for next week a lot of characters to root for they even made empire likable keep up the good work couldn’t wait to watch your breakdown
I don’t know how crazy the thinky-thinky parts the writers want to get into, but…if Hari Seldon’s vault is a true Tesseract, then Salvor could have “visited” him in the future and he can write down Hober’s name in the past, to fulfill a bootstrap paradox; since time isn’t linear in a tesseract. An ability to limited interaction (observe) a tesseract would explain Gaal’s abilities to “experience and see” the future.
Foundation is by far the best scifi show I’ve seen in years (yes, the one with the proto molecule was good too, but for me it was a 4/10, Foundation is a 9,8/10!!!). I’m so glad apple produces this show, as they never have to cancel something, they even gave „see“ (or was it „blind“?) a 3rd season, which no one saw, for obvious reasons.
Even though I have been a fan of the Foundation books for 50 years and this show bares little resemblance to them, in truth I am thoroughly enjoying it.
I think it is a play on words -- words that she has carefully chosen. 'I serve Empire" could mean so many things....but I believe that for her, "Empire" is the entirety of all humanity throughout the galaxy.
As a fan of the tv series-not the books-I’ve been very critical of season 2 because it feels like a different tone than season 1. However, this episode is one of my favorites in the entire series thus far. The show is sorely underrated. Hopefully Apple TV will renew and the writers strike won’t delay season three to the point of the series dying prematurely.
when Salvor said "well i'm actually not here..not physically" i sarted a timer just for fun, it took Dr. Seldon 59 seconds to figure out that there's another him, and another 28 seconds to figure out that there's a second Foundation 🤣🤣
I got the impression that Demerzel IS Cleon the First. That she is a golem, and he transferred his mind into her body. Obviously the people would never accept a robotic overlord, so he devised the clone system to ostensibly rule, while he, in truth, continued to reign from behind the throne. He could make any decision he wishes, and if the Brothers disagree, he has the ability to simply alter their memories and enact his will anyway. I especially felt that way after thinking back to the beginning of the show, when Cleon mentions he wishes he'd be around to see the completion of the Star Bridge, and she says he will see it completed, because she will be there. As in, you'll see it, but through my eyes after implanting your consciousness in me.
Amazing episode, cannot wait til next Friday. After a littke shaky start at the start of the first season, all the storylines are flourishing. Love it.
Demerzel's arc in the original books I absolutely didn't see coming and totally blew me away - I reckon they'll do something similar in the TV show but that that's a fair way off. Certain what ever's revealed at the end of this season will be part of that or possibly just misdirection. After all anyone who's read Prelude to Foundation has got to be watching the show with a set of assumptions about her character that they go out their way to break (her gender, the laws of robotics etc).
The idea that her consciousness will exist for a while after Tellem possesses Gaal reminds me of the ending of the movie "Being John Malkovich". The puppeteer (played by John Cusack) is tormented by the fact that he is trapped in the body of a young girl and you hear him 'say', "Look away, look away".
Tellum is basically Doro from Octavia Butler’s Patternist series (as is Marvel’s Apocalypse but this isn’t the time for that). One difference being, the other consciousness would die almost immediately when Doro invaded. The bigger difference being Doro didn’t have additional mental powers. I will say though that the mentalic colony feels like Mary’s Pattern, from Mind of My Mind. Likely unrelated: Doro couldn’t die in the traditional sense. Killing his host just sent him to the next closest host. Anyway, really enjoyed this episode! I have some minor notes like why did Dusk not have more of a reaction to learning the memory wipe is reversible, and why even trust her at all after that reveal.
The Hober Mallow scene where he saves Brother Constant (love that Foundation members often have names which reference math - Poly and Constant) reminded me of one of the earlier episodes of Breaking Bad. The one where Jesse is high and gets a gun and goes to confront Gus's street dealers/henchmen. You just know Jesse was about to get himself killed. Then out of the blue Walter drives in and runs over the two henchmen and saves Jesse's life. Totally unexpected move. I just knew this was the end for Constant - but Hober jumps in to save her.
What if that prison is for Cleon the First? Brother Dusk turns to Brother Darkness at age 90 then after some preparation Brother Darkness will 'ascend' (will be ceremonially killed). What if Cleon the First, instead of dying at around age 90, actually lived longer than that and thus has more stored memory compared to the rest of the clones? Then somehow Demerzel imprisoned Cleon the First. Or, maybe Cleon the First was initially digitized using the record of his memories and the digital version of Cleon the First is actually the one that is imprisoned.
I love it and thought similar though I was thinking that it was where Demerzel is imprisoned. At some point she said her consciousness was in the cloud so to speak. I thought Cleon the 1st had imprisoned her mind and in this episode made me thing he had imprisoned her there. I would be equally delighted with your hypothesis though. I keep feeling that Cleon the 1st is still in charge in the show and that Demerzel was found out and imprisoned for Empire so to speak.
Well, we did see Cleon the First materialize in front of Dusk and Rue in the secret stairwell chamber. He immediately knew which Dusk clone stood before him, he thus is up-to-date with current developments. And in the 400-year-old flashbacks in S1 we saw that Cleon the First and Demerzel worked together and had an emotional connection. So I think he set up the cloned Cleonic Dynasty with her help and his consciousness was immortalized in that secret chamber, being fed every experience and memory from his clones (the current Dusk and Dawn already found out that Cleon the First has the biggest memory storage of them all). And so, while he lives on, he gets to interfere with his clones through Demerzel in various ways.
It's about time that people figured out the Demerzel is running the show and her talking about the Zeroth law although it is taking a toll on "her'. Anybody who has read Asimov knows that. It is nice to see the details between the First Foundation as religion on the way to traders and the rise of the Second Foundation as mentalics. I have really been impressed. I keep waiting to see if Demerzel is running Hari Seldon.
Everyone out there pulling on threads. It’s a nice bit of consistency across the different stories. Because of the way Cleon I introduced the prison and the idea that he offered to explain about Demerzel’s origins, I assumed that the prison was created for her. I was surprised to see people thought it might be the other way around. Let me know what you think.
Oh def. We’ve seen Dusk at the end of his life. There aren’t skeletons around indicating any other Cleons were imprisoned here. My only question is why would Cleon I make her his forever heir only to make a prison for her? Mayhap a failsafe? Like all Dusk’s at decrepit they question all the actions that came before? Very intrigued for next weeks revelations
Okay lots to like in this episode. The plotting between the Foundation and Empire threads is working well. Also nice to see some reveals on what is going on with Demerzel. The plotting between Sareth and the Cleons is fun to watch although I suspect Dusk likely has the key to re-unifying the Cleons as there is almost certainly a damned good reason why Cleon the 1st set things up the way he did - even if that is him being manipulated by Demerzel. There is an intreiguing chance for Demerzel as we know her to be written out for a while as the Cleon's rebel against her influence which likely just hastens the Empire's fall. (Working on the theory that she likely has been trying to keep the Empire stable as a 'best of the bad choices' kinda thing.) I loved the rescue and the chaos it caused. It also was nice to see the vault Seldon show some compassion to Sermack.
However the artifice of the writers shows a bit too much.
We now have a *fourth* effective immortal running around affecting things. So Cleon (be he clone or digital), Hari, Demerzel and now Tellem as well? This runs the risk that we will only ever have the 'supra' humans running things. I hope that the series course corrects - the potential is there for Bel Riose to once again force the Emperor's hand giving regular mortal humanity agency. Much as Hober Mallow's shenanigans has.
But it is too much immortality to be comfortable. Especially given we have a fifth immortal of some form in the shape of Kalle, who we haven't got to the bottom of her deal yet either.
It again seems to be an undermining of the concepts of the books. A lot of psycho-history was the cleverness of the idea that humanity in aggregate behaves in a fashion akin to the ideal gas law (Or Boyle's law I think it was) in that while individuals remain hard to predict the overall behaviour of the population as a whole does. The series is now underpinning everything with less predictions and more the machinations of various individual immortals which again is drifting away from the ethos of the books.
Yes there is opportunity for fun story telling but once all the story cards are laid out on the table for all to see I have a sneaking suspicion it isn't going to be nearly as cleverly thought through.
We shall see I guess.
Oh and one other point. The Foundation isn't a control group - that seems to me to be a misuse of the idea of what a control group is. In experimentation terms a control group is one that isn't affected by the treatment or technique being tested. Usually by being given a placebo unawares as part of a double blind study. It is used as a reference against which the population groups who *are* being given treatment will be measured to see what the effect of the treatment actually is. Terminus is being actively manipulated by Vault Seldon so hardly counts - unless we are arguing that Vault Seldon is actually the placebo in this case.
Something this episode kinda undermines with the way he keeps steering things. His antagonism of Brother Day is clearly part of the overall grand plan manipulation that is meant to be going on. (And Brother Day isn't being nearly as clever as he thinks he is with the moves he is making, a detail the series is nicely portraying.)
Your Recaps have filled in so many little things that I have missed through the past couple seasons it's amazing. So thank you for that. They're enjoyable and informative. Also you have a very easy voice to listen to. You really should try your hand at narration I think you'd be a success.
One thing that was obvious all season is Damerzell was up to something. My first guess around episode 2 was that she was setting up conditions that allow her to break her programming. I'm also dying to find out why are the events with Gail and Salvor behind in time. I'm almost certain that the physical Harry is either still alive or never existed. I'd be curious to know if others think the same or I'm completely off base.
oh i think she was the First, the break the laws,of robots. the was captured and held until she and cleon came to some kind of understanding, or as punishment for trying to fight empire she must perserve empire going forward, but oh yeah i am so amped to see the next episode great vidoe pete!
This episode ompletely engulfed my soul from the start to finish - possibly the best episode of the series so far. MAN .... I am hooked and loving Goyer's take on Asimov's story!
Agreed, it was awesome. The best thing about the show has to be the unfolding of events, and they're starting to nail that.
Well thanx I guess for stealing my post. got damnit
I'm looking forward to talking about episode 9 with David S. Goyer next week.
@@PetePeppers1omg omg omg
@@PetePeppers1 we're ALL looking forward to you talking to Goyer next week Pete - please drain him for all the information you can and also tell him that he's created one of the MOST visually stunning Sci-Fi series ever made!
The revelation of Demerzel being the real power behind Empire has been in front of us all along. And Tellem's description of what happens to someone after she possesses them was horrifying. These last two episodes are going to be memorable for sure, and I just hate the fact that we may not see what happens next for about 2 years
I am willing to wait as long as they write a good story, and don't end up like game of thrones.
Tellem's description of what happens to someone after she possesses them was oddly similiar to Get Out (2017). In that movie the other person kinda falls in to the darkness of it's brain and loose control. Also in movie Self/less (2015) when one's consciousness was transferred from one body to another, they had to take the pill to silence other person. All absolutely horrifying.
I've always assumed since season 1 that Demerzel was actually the one controlling the throne. She's basically a walking supercomputer with thousands of years experience watching humanity so it just made sense. What has me baffled is the prison part. Prison for who??
I am not entirely convinced about Demerzel. She seemed genuinely distressed and helpless while poisoning that Zephyr religious leader lady in season 1 at the orders of Day. So, I don't really understand the power dynamics. Is she a servant? An entity that pulling the strings and playing some kind of a long game? A bit of both?
@@SlavaTaras Even in the books there has been debate about whether or not Daneel/Demerzel was a hidden servant or a hidden power controlling Mankind. So you are onto something here. There is definitely a big twist to it all, and it will be interesting to see if Goyer engages this theme.
Becky was a good girl :(
RIP
becky never lemme smash :(
No need to kill her.
Becky was a good dog
Becky should have killed that person.
The best rescue scene I've seen in 30 years "guide me through the darkness" indeed.
It was fun. But here is an interesting question - if the ships' wake as it came in disrupted Typhon's Collar and the Emperor's aura, why didn't it disrupt Demerzel? Surely a much more complicated and delicate mechanism than either of the previous two?
@mmbutcher6932Star Wars wishes😂
And into the light.😊
Well 15 or so. Battlestar jump was epic. This was definitely inspired by that.
@@philipbanks7730 because convenient writing.. star trek discovery level of writing. why are there no defences on the planet nor ANYTHING in orbit to challenge his ship flying away?
Demerzel IS the Cleonic Dynasty. I effing love the plot twists.
Lol twist I figured this out last season.... It's always been on the surface
I kinda knew it. Because firstly the place is so stable and predictable in a way that only works if it's regulated by a computer.
And given that Cleon is a person who is capable of huge changes, it would be hard to imagine him being predictable ... Unless he is manipulated and guided by a calculating presence.
Also, there is no way Cleon + Demerzel don't have access to whatever immortality tech that Harry used ... And that tech is far more stable and predictable is ever you wanted to be immortal ... But the cloning route is far more flexible for manipulation.
Finally, the fact that Harry can predict the whole thing points to an over arching presence that guides things and that decision making system is what the computer is using to predict the future ... So Demerzel makes Harry's computer possible ...
Demerzel is both the strength and weakness of the dynasty.
You didn't realize that when she snapped the neck of dawn in the previous season?
@@W1ngSMC and when she pushed dusk to the execution chamber , the only way she could do that is if she had some kind of abnormal mental control over the cleons
Other than that Demerzel is an alter ego for R. Daneel Olivaw in the novels and makes it all the way to the end of the entire Asimov universe as the books revealed many decades ago.
The saddest part of this episode was the realization that even 15,000 years later, Pluto is still not reclassified as a planet.
Our moon, the Moon, is larger than Pluto so why classify it as a planet?
@@monkeydog8681because not long ago, it was. Now we kinda know when Demerzel DIDN'T exist.
😂😂😂
@@malalfordif pluto classifies as a planet then so many other bodies would also need to be planets
haha
The idea that Demerzel is still actually serving Cleon I rather than the new Cleons, was definitely a shock, but it just made everything make sense all of a sudden! How she so casually killed Dawn last season, for example. This was an episode of reveals, important reveals. Can't wait for next week!
It would’ve been more interesting if she were serving robot kind and was laying the destruction of mankind via the destruction of empire. That would make more sense to me. For a robot, waiting thousands of years for men to self destruct wouldn’t be too much time. And would be easier than trying to fight them, since they lost the war.
from what w've seen of demerzel she doesnt want to destroy humanity. And assuming she does because she's a robot is inacurate, since all robot werent on the same side @@antoniao7439
I think she was imprisoned there and Cleon 1 found her and let her out. Cleon 1 legit seems to have been the person who really saw her as his heir. He says it should have us looking down on all we built
@@Jon_EL Dusk was telling the story of the robot wars. He mentioned that robots were fighting robots, so maybe Demerzel was one of the robots who fought for the humans? And ever since then Cleon 1 had an undying devotion to her, and she to him?
@@bbbl67 perhaps idk how that works on the timeline. We know she predates the Genetic Dynasty and Cleon 1 is worried she wont be safe after he dies. She says she is loyal to Empire but he asks will the Empire be loyal to you…That combined with the fact that the clones are programmed to never question her presence and there is a straight up Hari type data ghost of Cleon 1 hanging around casts alot of doubt on how absolute the clones power is.
This series gets better and better with every episode. This is sci-fi at its finest. I don’t care what anybody says. Apple would be insane not to keep this series going for eight seasons.
For sure, if they would do some solid advertising this show could be the face of apple tv+
Bet Apple stops it in 2 seasons because of money
I agree. I have loved the books for 50 years and while this show doesn’t resemble them really I’m loving it as well.
Good episode. Really liked how it's all coming back around to Demerzel, because I think that she's the second crisis. She may have to take out this Day to maintain control and inadvertently realign events with the map and psycho history. Really like Rue and Dusk and their relationship. Wondering if we'll get to see his memories restored. The scene with Hari and Salvor was rewarding as Hari sussed it all out. Constance and Hober getting caught was funny. Poor Becky. She pierced Empire's hide.
Easily the best episode of this season (so far). Jared Harris performing as different Seldon variants steels the show in a way Lee Pace did last season.
I liked the analogy between the Cleons and Seldon all being kept in the dark by their creators. Can’t wait for the next episode.
This was a fantastic episode. It covered so much and yet brought it all back together. This season has moved far beyond my expectations.
how was it fantastic? they have no defences neither on the ground or in orbit to stop the ship from flying away normally. Its as bad writing as can be.
@@FireHam Remember that Empire has a monopoly on faster-than-light travel. They have never experienced a ship like that so no need to make orbital defense since any fleet would be decimated before even reaching Trantor.
Please. Keep your stupid opinions to your stupid self.
The has been good last episode things started to fall apart but good recovery episode
@@FireHam Go check out the Season 2 previews - Not sure who they belong to (Spacers, Foundation aligned worlds, ???) but there is a hell of a firefight coming to Empires fleet soon
@@FireHam Empire never seems to have heavy protection, even when on another world, in the exceptions we've seen Day outside of Trantor. Them not being heavily defenced in the heart of the empire seems exactly right.
I am addicted to this series. Such a fantastic episode!!! Seeing Brother Day scared made my whole day.
Yes. He is a classic bully. Scared shitless when he doesn’t have all the power. Bel Rios was right.
I loved Day’s little yelp as he got thrown by Becky 😂
Indeed, still can't work out If I'm love or hate XVII, absolutely perfect writing and performance
@@artificialgravitas8954
He's growing on me.
I've spent most of the season writing him off as a complete idiot but his idea of making himself his envoy to The Foundation is pretty impressive.
Personally I hope Bel gets to kill him because that's a win Bel deserves.
And Bel did get to kill him.
So yay!
@@alanpennie8013 yes… yes de certainly did.
@@artificialgravitas8954 I’m with ya… I loved the character but disliked what he still became. I think it was the symbolism behind his searching for identity despite that he’s supposed to specifically not have an identity aside from that of Cleon I that I enjoyed.
I'm thinking the next episode will be Demerzel's back story. I think Salvor will find a way to save Gael. I get the feeling that Day is walking into his own doom. I am now convinced Tellem is The Mule, and will transfer her consciousness to the little boy who will now rage against Gael and Salvor for what they did
*Gaal
(....though admittedly pronounced like "Gael")
@@Cbricklyne That's how I started to spell it, but then I thought it was wrong so I changed it...oh well
Gay el
Maybe part of her backstory. There's 4 books of it lol
@@chakramesteful
Touché
Could Tellem eventually cross over into a male body and become the Mule, considering she gets stronger each time she jumps.
Thats a very interesting theory
This is what I'm thinking as well... People had speculated that Josaih (the young boy in the group) will become the Mule, and this would be an excellent reason why that would happen...
But she already knows Gail ... But the Mule doesn't.
I have a bad feeling your theory is right but I really hope it isn't.
Part of what made the Mule a tragic figure in the books and recoverable for the Seldon plan was the fact that he was both unique and sterile (which is why he is called the Mule). Which meant while his lifetime was a massive abberation to the predicted path his death largely starts the undoing of the deviations he caused. That and the nudgings of the Second Foundation to course correct things back.
If we have a body hopping Mule who just gets more powerful with each hop then you have a Mule whose potential for ongoing disruption is potentially infinite...
There's been no doubt in my mind for three episodes that she is connected to the mule. I thought it was the little boy but had never occurred to me that it was actually her reincarnated or incarnated. This show makes it very difficult to know which tense to use.
This season has been absolutely excellent Sci Fi and story telling. The actors of this show are chewing up screen time week by week. Big props to the show runners and writers.
Also, I'd suggest a section at the end of your videos that goes over changes, things that weren't present, and things changed or expanded upon. 3/4 of the video be a recap, last 1/4 be a little spoiler/expansion section to expand and talk about the core works.
Seconded!
Thirded! 😂
It would be interesting, but since the show has kept only the names and the main functions of each character, the hypotheses about the show based on the books could be endless!! I tried it myself only to be disproved in the next episode!!
I have a theory. What if the Robot uprising actually ended up with the Robots winning. And though the Robots could have wiped the Humans completely out. They decided to be merciful and let them live in the milky way galaxy while they took Earth, the birthplace of humanity for themselves. And they travelled to other galaxies as well, something the spacers were supposed to do. As punishment they erased all memory of Earth and where it was. With Demerzel being the watcher that looks over humanity to ensure compliance with the eternal peace.
I'm on board with this. I hope you're right!
And that's where the cylons came from.....
I had this thought also. And also That the prison was for Cleon not Demerzel
what is clear is that this is demerzels empire but only if cleon is involved
Here is what i think happened ( potential spoiler):- - an emperor got addicted to her and in the heat of passion and carelessness he accidentally GAVE her freedom from the three laws to enable their relationship to move forward, he didn't suspect that he had also freed all the other robots.
some robots chose violence when denied humanity but they run into the fail safe , apparently they were free from everyone except empire, they were paralyzed and slaughtered when one killed an emperor.
The so called pogrom.
Demerzel got into her lewd ways and hooked cleon , she eventually imprisoned him until she had extracted and discovered every last freedom robots really had , resulting in the creation of the cleons.
They do the grudge work all she has to do is maintain the ship.
They are programmed to never get rid of her
I did think the eight planets in the painting were our solar system. Could be why demerzel has them on her box but everyone else just thinks they are eight arbitrary planets
In the last episode, Season 2, Episode 7, there was a mentalic acolyte shedding tears when Salvor was in the tide pool. Some people theorized that was Gaal kind making herself look like one of the natives, but this week, we see that was not the case. So what does that mean? I suspect it means there are people within the group that feel that Tellum is bad, but she's too powerful to do anything about. So when Salvor goes to save Gaal, I think there will be a battle within the group. Those on the side of Tellum and those who oppose her, but haven't been able to do anything about it. The question I have is how many on each side.
The kid with the neck scar knew about the table ritual and described it as a great honour. So they probably know full well that Tellum steals bodies, and they probably think that's great. A thoroughly indoctrinated cult.
When Salvor and the guy who pretended to be her ex? kissed! I think he'll help Salvor and Gale! This season is getting better and better! It's So interesting (as I've never read the books) with the sci-fii element world building acting FX! Anyway can't wait and Good Theory Breakdown! Cheers
Great posit!
I think the guy was crying because the mentallics feel things more than “unsighted” people - like when they fry their shrimp. So when Tellum kills or hurts someone, they feel it too.
I dont think so, he seemed very much under Tellem's control, but the boy seems not, and he consider salvor as a friend, I think if she has some kind of help, it will be the little boy@@eddysandland58
Asimov had the original three laws... However, in one of the books there was the fourth law that was developed that allowed robots to circumvent the three laws. The fourth law was actions for the good of humanity. Demerzel's loyalty to Empire I believe is for what she considers the good of humanity. Robots also had the ability to change people's memories.
There are quite a few other laws as well. But i think you are right. I would like to add that while some robots can circumvent sometimes the laws, it is not easy, and in many cases this causes them distress or even death. I think we get to see that when Demerzel kills Dawn in season one.
Correct. That’s was from Robots and Empire.
I've never felt so good about a sci-fi show like this episode since 'expanse', hope they keep it up
Underrated show!
Good take
Expanse did not live up to the hype
@@ihsanpro9406 lies
@@ihsanpro9406
That's a terrible opinion and you should feel terrible.
this episode was BY FAR the best episode this season. Maybe even the best since the show started. I'm sad there are only two episodes left! 😥
i'll take two. I thought it was the season finale.
I hate to be 'that guy' (...especially since I'm usually making fun of 'that guy'), but damn girl...
You really are pretty.
This episode was a blast, everything is in motion... So far S2 has been a very well done crescendo of events... Only 2 more to go... but i want 10 more!!! :)
I'll have to go back and re-watch the episode as I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned here, but I could swear that I noticed Demerzel sensing the incoming whisper ship a few moments before it actually appeared. Seemed important.
Yess I’m not the only one who noticed
When Hober dropped in I was sooooo stoked. It was an incredible moment
And that he didn't blast 20 Guards without getting hurt like every other modern hero apparently can.
Fucking phenomenal solid 1 hour of SciFi TV. I was captivated every moment. Next episode is supposedly Demerzel's origin story. This show went from above average in Season 1, to my favourite new show I am currently watching.
Seriously look forward to your videos. Thanks!!
Also, love the idea that Dem is the forever empress
Harry Seldon is like: NO SPOILERS NO SPOILERS NO SPOILERS.
Hober Mallow was a spoiler the whole time!
@@stdesy😂right?!! I love the back and forth time movement. So fluid and crazy but you can understand it
Jared Harris is a living legend already. He is the show.
This was my favorite episode thus far…the intrigue of the Cleons being controlled, the earth solar system being a clue (love the reference back to us), and the who mentallist storyline is all heating up to a cataclysm.
One of the best details for this episode was the active chroma revealing the very human skeleton under the humaniform robot.
When Dusk talks about the robot wars and mentions "robot against robot" it makes me really think that Kalle may be Demerzel's counterpart. I still think right hand Hari is alive and that clone Hari was made to die. I am really looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.
What if he not a clone? What if he’s a robot and that’s why Tellum couldn’t read him? 🤔
If Hari was a robot how Gaal has feelt the water going into Hari's lungs ?
@@thanthallas Tellim’s mind games to break her mind so she can easily transfer her consciousness and be the dominant mind for full control? 🤔
I love how they got the egg and atomic reference from the books even so slightly a nod 😂 Also in the same scene Day say “Foundation and Empire” as well as Poly utters the sayings “Violence is the last resort of the incompetent.” Brilliant writing, references for us book fans to muse on, and also an excellent performance by both actors 😊
Plot twist: the end of the season is a complex and bureaucratic legal battle with Cleon suing the Foundation in court, claiming that he is the real owner of the stuff
Since he presumably appoints the judges he should have a good chance of winning.
Unless the judges have joined The Church of The Galactic Spirit of course.
@@alanpennie8013 which explains Demerzel dissapointment in the last episode given that all the issue could be addressed easily yet Cleon decided to blow it out of proportion
Constant and Hobor are the most endearing couple - just super sweet and funny moments in a sometimes very serious show
I'm really enjoying this series. It definitely scratches my chronic sci-fi itch. I rely on these reviews and breakdowns so that I could get some clarification.
Possibly one of the best episodes of science fiction television I’ve seen in a very long time.
it is. i dont recall any sci-fi show episode at this level.
Brilliant Analysis. Loved the Big Reveal re “Empress” Demerzel as an archetype of Winoset, Mother of Cleon I and the Last Galactic Empress in E2:6 Looking forward to watching Demerzel assert her “Princeps” Authority as she prepares Galactic War. The only Q left is whether Hari Seldon knew/understood Demerzel’s role in shaping Psycho History. 🍻
It makes it more disturbing to realize that Cleon I, who fashioned Dermezel to look like his mother, also frequently had sex with her (According to Cleon 17th).
They definitely ramped up the action and plot in this episode. Obviously we're going to keep building up towards the climax at the end of the next episode, leading to the conclusion in ep 10. This season has certainly felt a bit slow and meandering up until now but it's finally starting to really pick up pace and get super interesting.
So, my guess is that Salvor will rescue Gaal just in time, but because the process was already started, Tellem will have to take Josiah's body, and that will turn him into the Mule.
I think Cleon 1 reprogrammed Demerzelle which is why she doesn't obey the 3 laws - when she says she serves Empire, she's serving the concept of THE Empire, not the Emperor. However, this does raise the question of how she couldn't possibly be R. Daneel Oliva then... But maybe she is given the various Cleon's missing memories... (book readers will know where I'm going with this).
Why is the mule asking for the second foundation location Ignus. Doesn't add up
@@diopmamad Because the Second Foundation is NOT on Ignus - "It's on the Opposite end of the Galaxy" (book quote)
The robot-like one phrase response being repeated by Dusk reminded me of Bernard/Arnold from 'Westworld' when he says "What door?" and "Doesn't look like anything to me." to Theresa. So terrifying and exciting at the same time.
I came straight here after watching. PP will always be here like he always has been.
haha
Clever...that was an awesome but terrifying scene...just wow! To think Cleon is a brainwashed or rather programed Pawn aka "figure head"
Perfect timing, I just finished the episode
I aim to please
@@PetePeppers1aaarrgghhhh ive been waiting an hour hahaaaaa :D
It’s funny I told a buddy a couple of weeks ago that Telum was gonna try and take Gaals power, he thought I was crazy. I just didn’t anticipate her trying to take her whole body!
Well mental ppwer transfer was Apocalypse game since the character was created
It was nicely set up.
I hope Hari didn't realise what danger he was putting his old student in.
I literally just asked where this review was! Funny. Fantastic episode. I totally called it with Demezel and with Hobor turning up at the execution.
The scene in S1 where Cleon 1 was looking at the star bridge construction w Demerzel ALL makes sense now. They both were so in love w each other that they ensured they would be together ruling the empire for all time!
She may eliminate all 3 versions of Cleon, decant new ones, then start the war. Seldon cant account for individual actions and this might include robots like Demerzel.
Whew!!! Great writing!!
> Seldon cant account for individual actions and this might include robots like Demerzel.
This made me think an interesting thought. One of the main reasons robots fought in the wars is so that they would be recognized for their "humanness", right? If psychohistory must take Demerzel's actions into account, then, effectively, psychohistory "treats" humans and robot as equals, in a way. If this knowledge would reach Demerzel's ears, how would that affect her?
@@justin___ ; robots like demerzel are effectively human.
She even gets a spiritual revelation.
That sounds extremely likely:(
I don't think she has considered foundation a true threat yet, empire is used to such rebellions.
when the multithread plots starts to converge... i love this part the most
LOVED this episode. And this season is solid. Now we need to figure out if Kalle is Dermelzers counterpart
I was thinking the same thing.......
Anybody else ever notice that whenever a middle throne Day leaves the planet, Dawn always seems to get entangled with a woman who has nefarious motives. Lol
He always finds himself deep in malevolent 😺 lmao
Lol Cleon was foolish in his youth. It’s a character trait obviously 🤣🤣🤣
Indeed. Poor Dawn is always falling foul of the ladies with alterior motives.
He's such a susceptible emperor...
Fantastic episode, even more explosive (literally) and revealing than last week's. Looks like Cleon the First (whose consciousness apparently was immortalized in the secret chamber being fed all memories and knowledge from his clones) and his dear Demerzel set up an elaborate system to keep control of the Galactic Empire (and possibly mankind) in his name and instrumentally through his robot majordomo heir. Great acting from Vault-Hari, too, leading to the reveal of the actual timing of the story lines. The Tellum development was also exciting. 👏
That reveal at the end? Mindblowing! Didn't see it coming one bit. Looking very much forward to your interview with Goyer! ♥
One thing I haven't been able to figure out is when Cleon I told Dusk all his temperaments have been accounted for and Dusk asked what do you mean and Cleon I replied "That's none of your concern"......that was so weird. Its almost as if Cleon I doesn't care bout his exponents.
Yes, didn't make sense that he would withhold information from himself...He treated him like a pawn
@@daviidon I think we can be pretty sure now that the clones are pawns. Demerzel is their keeper seeing to it that they don’t go too far away and beyond the plan that she follows. But what is the plan that she protects? Was it a plan that Cleon I handed her or was it her plan way before even him? Does she even have a connection to Seldon which is why she is on the trip to Terminus?
I also wonder what happens on Trantor with Day and Demerzel away? Sareth and Rue seems to be playing Dawn and Dusk well to come to question both Day and Demerzel.
POSSIBLE BOOK SPOILER
If going by the book’s one character theorises that a strong emperor can’t be away for long from court before someone moves in on challenge his power. In the show that is Demerzel that is the real emperor. This is the example of a weakness she probably hasn’t calculated for or wasn’t able to steer away from. Is she caught in a situation that she isn’t able to control or has she already prepared for it? I think it’ll be something connected with the crisis coming up…
He isn't withholding from himself. They are his clones, they are pawns in every way.@@daviidon
@@oldleatherhandsfriends4053had this thought that perhaps they’ve always been the original clones and had their minds wiped.
I took it to mean that he's been immortalized by preserving his consciousness within the stairwell "prison" and that he is being fed all the experiences, memories, and knowledge of each of his successive clones ever since he set up the cloned Cleonic Dynasty. And he gets to interfere with their memories and thoughts through Demerzel. He immediately knew which Dusk clone stood before him, and this Dusk along with the current Dawn already found out that Cleon the First has the largest memory storage of all Cleons.
So maybe I'm reading into it more than I should, but the Robot in the mural - that lead to the secret passage - had a green stripe. In fact I think it was the green stripe that Dusk added chroma to. In Season 2 Episode 5, Dusk and Dawn were looking at a mural of Emperor Algren who had a green stripe - denoting high treason - and they mentioned that for a specific reason, though not evident at the time maybe. They eluded to it that they could be charged with high treason, but I'm sure not all Cleon's are memorialized - after all how would they paint 15?
The point I'm trying to get at is, could one robot have been guilty of high treason (Demerzel) and her punishment was to serve Empire for the rest of her existence?
My favorite most love character is Demerzel with Day a close 2nd... Hobers entrance definitely pieced the emperor's armor and we're about to get a war.. I don't even know if i wanna see how OP Demerzel is but can't wait for next episode..
Apple+: Home of Science Fiction?❤
"Home of Sci-fi" I know right! Apple is killing it right now 👍🏾
Thorough dissertation Pete. Keep up the good work 💪
Knowing Tellem can take bodies make it possible for her to be the Gale in the vision and Gale is trapped inside but from the past was able to project to the future, basically Gale was in the sunken place when she had the vision
good point
The best episode so far … absolutely thrilling!
I was quite literally sitting on the edge of my seat to try to make sure I didn’t miss a single line. Omg this show is incredible. So many “threads” to follow, I love it lol
Dude ur breakdowns are second to none at least on youtube thanks pal
Idk I know Hari White is dead but I’m low key hoping he isn’t. 😢
Salvor proved how much they need him!
I want Hari back!
@@maxbardus3019 me too!🥲
Kalle on Oona's world has a copy of the other Hari.
@@RumChocolates I hope so 🙃
Agree that the digital version is still with Kalle. The Hari-in-a-body seems like a feint to keep the radiant safe from Tellum. The fact that body-Hari has no memory of what happened keeps that secret safe from the mentallics. So having a body is the only way that Hari can go there and not expose the radiant. Kalle said she would explain more when/if she and Gaal meet again -- again withholding information to prevent Tellum from knowing.
Maybe the boy is another incarnation of Tellum, who becomes the The Mule, which would explain why he is so OP. Many thanks for this insightful video, Pete!
I loved this episode. Demerzel said something in Episode 2 when she was giving Day an update on his assassination attempt investigation. She told Day that Dusk & Dawn's memory audits 'showed no assassination planning or more accurately said they have no memory of planning your assassination' and Day smirked. It made me think she was pulling all the strings with each Cleon. R. Daneel Olivaw is my favorite character in all of written science fiction. I wonder if R. Daneel's plot will be in this show or if Demerzel's story be distinct.
I agree with many of the comments that Tellum is the Mule or whatever Salvor does to save Gaal creates the Mule. Thanks for your breakdown. I'd love for you to break down the differences between the show and books. I'm looking forward to Demerzel's backstory in the next episode! Season 2 is so much better than I expected.
Unfortunately, Apple doesn't have the Rights to the "Robots" books by Asimov and they had to negotiate to get the limited references that they are using :-(
@@earld1403 The name 'Daneel', has been negotiated - it will appear somewhere. The empathy for this character is immense, so my hope it it will be used with great care.
@@earld1403 Thanks for sharing this! I didn't know. I loved the Robot series. Part of me hoped a Demerzel flashback to that series would occur.
Hey Pete Peppers! Thank you for your deeply informed and reflective videos that are timely posted that for many fans and myself serve as perfect post show digestif . Foundation the tv show is expensive in space and time. Without reading the books , concepts such as quantum supposition while stimulating for the minds of viewers are also possible for us to get lost in unthinking. Your recaps are grounding. You drizzle in some book info but more to contrast and let us know that even book readers like Hari Saldon don't have predictive power as the show has remixed things to keep everyone guessing. It makes to the books more interesting and not less.
Notice the painting of the robot. Is got a green sash on the neck. Just like the depiction of the traitor empiror dawn mentioned in a previos episode.
Here is my idea around for the mentalics and second foundation. Salvor Hardin will enter and disrupted the transfer with the frequency jamming device she has or Gaal will win over her and force her out. either way Tellem will be forced out and take a new male body and become the Mule. When this happens Tellem will loose the hold she has on the rest of the mentalics. God I love this show!😁
Aw snap!! You might be on to something! Plus she's trying to stop the second foundation by destroying the prime radiant.
Book purists be damned, this is great story telling.
dont be harsh, friend. i admit, this episode and the series itself is not as bad as i had assumed initially. however i still believe this is not Foundation - and the original story is THE Foundation. this is something new and different. it should not be called foundation. otherwise great episode, yeah.
Book take on is still better. This is basically a rebellion story, while the book foundation was never meant to be a guerrilla group. But yes, adapted version of the story is still a good story by its own. For now.
@alphadraconis9898
I agree, they've captured the spirit of Foundation (Psycho History as a group dynamic, the creation of the Second Foundation that we are seeing now, how Foundation is growing even as Empire is declining, the shift of Foundation from a religious movement into a mercantile movement, etc)
But there is no way that I would want to watch a straight adaptation of the Books.
The books were all Cerebral with little inter-personal relationships.
And the fact that every book had a completely different set of characters would never work as a TV series.
As one of the Authors of The Expanse", in his Podcast Ty Franck has mentioned several times the difficulty of translating a book into a screenplay because the entire nature of the medium is so different. Even though he was on set AND helping the screen writers from the very beginning of Season 1, he mentioned that he didn't try to adapt any of *his own writing* into a screenplay until the 3rd season. It took him that long to get the hang of adapting his own book into a screenplay (note that Daniel Abraham co-wrote The Expanse but was not on set like Ty was).
if a tv show was supposed to be a book, why make a tv show then ? just read the book. @@haggyadlexarom
@@earld1403 The books were just dialogues. What would have been so difficult about turning dialogues into a TV series. It can't get any easier than that. They wouldn't even have needed a script writer. They could have just used the books as script.
This show is really coming into it's own. I've read the Foundation Series and loved it. With the departure from the source material this is becoming great scifi
I never click the UA-cam notification so fast!!!!
Thanks Pete, this is great stuff. I was all hyped for the Wheel of Time return this week but this episode was a stormer, just brilliant.
This show is excellent! A beautiful story and so intriguing. Absolutely love it!
*6:57*
It makes me laugh how even though this is science fiction with all of this advanced technology and a vast galactic empire, this still falls back on the trope of someone thinking that if they know a prophecy they can act in a way so that it doesn't come true!
😄
absolutely LOVE this season!!! Love love love!
Great episode great show I’m super excited for next week a lot of characters to root for they even made empire likable keep up the good work couldn’t wait to watch your breakdown
I don’t know how crazy the thinky-thinky parts the writers want to get into, but…if Hari Seldon’s vault is a true Tesseract, then Salvor could have “visited” him in the future and he can write down Hober’s name in the past, to fulfill a bootstrap paradox; since time isn’t linear in a tesseract. An ability to limited interaction (observe) a tesseract would explain Gaal’s abilities to “experience and see” the future.
That's an interesting notion.
Great effing show! Looking forward to the final two episodes!
Foundation is by far the best scifi show I’ve seen in years (yes, the one with the proto molecule was good too, but for me it was a 4/10, Foundation is a 9,8/10!!!).
I’m so glad apple produces this show, as they never have to cancel something, they even gave „see“ (or was it „blind“?) a 3rd season, which no one saw, for obvious reasons.
Even though I have been a fan of the Foundation books for 50 years and this show bares little resemblance to them, in truth I am thoroughly enjoying it.
Really loved this episode. I have never read the series, so I was intrigued by your surprise.
You are the Best Foundation reviewer
thanks
Demerzel saying she serves empire seems to mean she only serves Cleon I and his design.
I think it is a play on words -- words that she has carefully chosen. 'I serve Empire" could mean so many things....but I believe that for her, "Empire" is the entirety of all humanity throughout the galaxy.
@@michaellerner528yes it is 👌🏻
As a fan of the tv series-not the books-I’ve been very critical of season 2 because it feels like a different tone than season 1. However, this episode is one of my favorites in the entire series thus far. The show is sorely underrated. Hopefully Apple TV will renew and the writers strike won’t delay season three to the point of the series dying prematurely.
They already started filming season 2 before the strike
@@woooshbait9696 I had heard from another source that was a rumor.
when Salvor said "well i'm actually not here..not physically" i sarted a timer just for fun, it took Dr. Seldon 59 seconds to figure out that there's another him, and another 28 seconds to figure out that there's a second Foundation 🤣🤣
I got the impression that Demerzel IS Cleon the First. That she is a golem, and he transferred his mind into her body.
Obviously the people would never accept a robotic overlord, so he devised the clone system to ostensibly rule, while he, in truth, continued to reign from behind the throne.
He could make any decision he wishes, and if the Brothers disagree, he has the ability to simply alter their memories and enact his will anyway.
I especially felt that way after thinking back to the beginning of the show, when Cleon mentions he wishes he'd be around to see the completion of the Star Bridge, and she says he will see it completed, because she will be there. As in, you'll see it, but through my eyes after implanting your consciousness in me.
I dunno bro, I don’t think he likes fucking himself.. then again who knows
Well, my mind is boggled as it was meant to be! Terrific review.
Amazing episode, cannot wait til next Friday. After a littke shaky start at the start of the first season, all the storylines are flourishing. Love it.
Demerzel's arc in the original books I absolutely didn't see coming and totally blew me away - I reckon they'll do something similar in the TV show but that that's a fair way off. Certain what ever's revealed at the end of this season will be part of that or possibly just misdirection. After all anyone who's read Prelude to Foundation has got to be watching the show with a set of assumptions about her character that they go out their way to break (her gender, the laws of robotics etc).
Foundation 2 is an absolutely amazing show, glad they didn't cancel it.
Agreed. It was a bit shaky in S1 but S2 has been a knockout.
Demerzel has been running the show since the 1st cleon shes in every motif there all her in all the paintings all sculptures
The idea that her consciousness will exist for a while after Tellem possesses Gaal reminds me of the ending of the movie "Being John Malkovich". The puppeteer (played by John Cusack) is tormented by the fact that he is trapped in the body of a young girl and you hear him 'say', "Look away, look away".
Tellem Bond's obsession with immortality, reeks of fear. I saw the same fear in Brother Day's eyes
Demerzel… the intergalactic Jim Henson!
Wow great episode great review too like always
Absolutely the best episode yet!!
Tellum is basically Doro from Octavia Butler’s Patternist series (as is Marvel’s Apocalypse but this isn’t the time for that). One difference being, the other consciousness would die almost immediately when Doro invaded. The bigger difference being Doro didn’t have additional mental powers. I will say though that the mentalic colony feels like Mary’s Pattern, from Mind of My Mind.
Likely unrelated: Doro couldn’t die in the traditional sense. Killing his host just sent him to the next closest host.
Anyway, really enjoyed this episode! I have some minor notes like why did Dusk not have more of a reaction to learning the memory wipe is reversible, and why even trust her at all after that reveal.
Hello, nice to see another Octavia Butler fan!😀
@@zakiya1635 there are two of us here! Hopefully more will see the comment. Hopefully others will have their curiosity sparked!
Best episode of the series
and there's still two more to go
Simply the best one yet
I do not have Apple+. But I love following this series through your videos.
Enjoy
Count yourself amongst many friends!
The Hober Mallow scene where he saves Brother Constant (love that Foundation members often have names which reference math - Poly and Constant) reminded me of one of the earlier episodes of Breaking Bad. The one where Jesse is high and gets a gun and goes to confront Gus's street dealers/henchmen. You just know Jesse was about to get himself killed. Then out of the blue Walter drives in and runs over the two henchmen and saves Jesse's life. Totally unexpected move. I just knew this was the end for Constant - but Hober jumps in to save her.
What if that prison is for Cleon the First? Brother Dusk turns to Brother Darkness at age 90 then after some preparation Brother Darkness will 'ascend' (will be ceremonially killed). What if Cleon the First, instead of dying at around age 90, actually lived longer than that and thus has more stored memory compared to the rest of the clones? Then somehow Demerzel imprisoned Cleon the First. Or, maybe Cleon the First was initially digitized using the record of his memories and the digital version of Cleon the First is actually the one that is imprisoned.
Ah! I love the way you think 🤔
I love it and thought similar though I was thinking that it was where Demerzel is imprisoned. At some point she said her consciousness was in the cloud so to speak. I thought Cleon the 1st had imprisoned her mind and in this episode made me thing he had imprisoned her there. I would be equally delighted with your hypothesis though. I keep feeling that Cleon the 1st is still in charge in the show and that Demerzel was found out and imprisoned for Empire so to speak.
Well, we did see Cleon the First materialize in front of Dusk and Rue in the secret stairwell chamber. He immediately knew which Dusk clone stood before him, he thus is up-to-date with current developments. And in the 400-year-old flashbacks in S1 we saw that Cleon the First and Demerzel worked together and had an emotional connection. So I think he set up the cloned Cleonic Dynasty with her help and his consciousness was immortalized in that secret chamber, being fed every experience and memory from his clones (the current Dusk and Dawn already found out that Cleon the First has the biggest memory storage of them all). And so, while he lives on, he gets to interfere with his clones through Demerzel in various ways.
Wonderful! Great Episode and that ending !!!! Loved it
It's about time that people figured out the Demerzel is running the show and her talking about the Zeroth law although it is taking a toll on "her'. Anybody who has read Asimov knows that. It is nice to see the details between the First Foundation as religion on the way to traders and the rise of the Second Foundation as mentalics. I have really been impressed. I keep waiting to see if Demerzel is running Hari Seldon.
This was the best episode of foundation hands down!