I love how ATC was pretty casual about the event when it started, asking for a climb to 17000 then as soon as he heard them put the mask on at 2:05 he switched into proper emergency mode (you could hear it in his voice) and gave them full priority. Awesome work by everyone.
@@Hartbreak1 Yeah highly doubtful considering they had already agreed to level at 6000 long before they put the masks on. Nice try to attempt to make them look stupid with trivial crap though.
@@aurorasstorm5877 😂 I’m not making them look stupid, it seems obvious that they got task saturated early on and wanted to focus on solving the unknown issue. They weren’t acting stupid, they were doing their job.
You can tell the pilots are task saturated trying to manage the situation onboard and maintain communication with ATC. Everything considered they did a fabulous job.
ATC was awesome, didn't wait, he heard the transmission about putting O2 masks on and started redirecting them for a return to the airport before the crew asked. CRM at its best!
@VASAviation It would be really awesome if you could cover the stolen King Air from the Tupelo, Mississippi airport today (9/3/22) that ended up making a controlled landing in a field. Thanks.
@@letto18 More likely heavy braking - 22L is cutting it a bit fine for a nearly full (it holds 211 pax + at least 7 crew, so 206/218) 767 fuelled for a transcontinental flight (5hrs30 plus enough for a couple of missed approaches and a diversion, still landing with legal reserve, all at around 5 tonnes/hour makes that 69.5 probably thousand pounds, although the most popular 767-300 ER version which N175DN is an example of can hold that many tonnes, this is Delta in the US, so probably legacy units), so they did well not to blow more than one, or be held away from the gate for brake cooling.
@@phillee2814 100% agree with your reasoning Phil. Runway 31L is 12500ft and would have been a better bet with hindsight. Lighter braking and less heat and more wiggle room for landing long. Lord Letto, the tyre probably did not blow. It likely deflated due to the fusible plugs that melt with heat. Heat, continues to rise after braking, due to heat from the brakes; so they most likely deflated on taxi.
@@philipjamesparsons I agree about the use of that runway. Considering the winds, they could've offered 13R which would've had minimal disruption to operations (maybe) and quicker to the gate.
Hey have you heard about the man who stole a plane over Tupelo Mississippi and was threatening to crash it into a Walmart? Maybe there is audio of the incident you could find?
that was barely related to aviation. It was a guy with a mental issue making threats. ....he just happened to have access to an aircraft to make those threats in a way related to aviation. I don't see a purpose in devoting a video to that behavior.
@@tylerg.9418 that was an airliner and a guy who was having the time of his life at the end of his life. He meant no harm to anyone. This was a guy threatening to crash into Walmart to hurt people. The only connection is that there is an aircraft.
If you couldn't tell those pilots were overworked- they were asking them much moreso than needed. A fire on an aircraft is extremely dangerous - most of the time it results in complete loss of the aircraft. At that point Tower is asking if they think they can shift on the runway once they are down. The pilots jobs are - Aviate Navigate Communicate - in that order. And they need to communicate with each other and the cabin way before tower. If a fire breaks out, which could be any moment- they are to ditch- actually ditch their aircraft if needs be to get it on the ground, as it can take only a few minutes for the aircraft to be engulfed in flames with no survivors. Which is why you don't want to be bringing your big lithium batteries on board an aircraft. In this one circumstance, ATC isn't really much of a factor in the equation of survival- especially at that early section. They are essentially waiting to hear that the cabin crew have begun fighting the fire to buy time. During this period they will be calculating the fastest landing site/best chance. The reason the pilot is showing nerves is the likelihood of death. Feel free to listen to the recordings of aircraft in this position, but i'll tell you its rough.
It's easy to say "should-woulda-coulda" from the comfort of our homes. Until we find ourselves in that, or a similar situation, we should hold off making armchair-quarterback judgment calls. These pilots were doing their job (quite well, I might add) dealing with a potential fire (a definite MAYDAY emergencysituation). They prioritized first by *flying* the plane (*aviating*), ensuring they could see/breathe (donning their masks), troubleshooting to properly assess and initally mitigate the threat (fumes/smoke/fire), then they continued to *navigate* (they were in a critical flight phase [below 10,000 ft], climbing on the assigned SID, with *a lot* already happening [takeoff checklist]), then, lastly, they *communicated* with ATC. Talking with ATC is not needed to fly & navigate & troubleshooti, so it has the least priority. Thevfkip side is that it's not difficult for ATC to see and determine that an aircraft is in distress. If ATC cannot establish or maintain comms with an aircraft (NORDO), they automatically give it priority, and move other nearby aircraft out of the way of the NORDO aircraft. If comms are reestablished, they will verbally ascertain if they are an emergency aircraft. ATC did all of those procedures for this Delta flight, and did a stellar job to boot. Everyone did an amazing job, and other that smoke/fume inhalation, no one was hurt and made it back safely. Major kudos to all!!
@@carbon1255 If we want to go down the route of perfect communication it would have been something like: 1."We need to level of, may have a fume/smoke event, probably need to head back, is 4000ft fine?" -> Then around the mask situation (or possibly before) "declaring an emergency/pan-pan/mayday, fumes in cabin, maybe cockpit, return to Kennedy, need a few minutes to set up, stby" I believe a clear communication of "might have fumes/smoke", will need to return and STBY would have helped there. You can hear that the first controller gets it as soon as they request to stay below 10 000ft
I wonder how long they had to wait for EMTs at the gate. Thanks to the port authority they have to come all the way from Jamaica Queens because they don’t have on site EMT service.
Defenetly well handled by ATC and the pilots. But once again i miss the clear terminology we use here in Europe. PAN-PAN-PAN or MAYDAY-MAYDAY-MAYDAY is way better then...well maybe we declare an emergency but ist not too bad or maybe it is...hard to say....
I think the accidental broadcast of the aircraft control exchange to put on masks was more effective than a mayday call. ....In fact the broadcast may not have been accidental.
A clear and quick PAN-PAN-PAN, instead of an accidental „putting masks on“ broadcast, would have given them the required attention… now it was only because the ATC knew what could go down in the cockpit right now… another ATC maybe wouldn‘t have… great ATC and general handling, however would have preferred hearing a clear MAYDAY or PAN
@@RLTtizME Whilst I don’t fully agree with OPs comment - get the plane down is the most important thing first and foremost, American pilots probably should follow what the rest of the world do for several reasons. The Mayday/Pan-Pan call serves several purposes and is important for more people than you think. First and foremost, it is the clearest indication of an emergency, and pilots should not be afraid to use it. If you need priority, say it. Second, pilots in other planes often switch off to the frequencies until they hear their call sign. Everything else becomes noise as there’s a lot happening around JFK. If Mayday or Pan is declared, every other pilots attention is peaked, and this is useful for planning. Knowing that a runway may be closed means early planning to go to an alternate, especially in a low fuel scenario. Upon takeoff, calling it may give the next plane a warning there may be debris on the runway. At critical phases of flight, hearing what is happening is important. Finally, although the language of aviation is English, you may find yourself with a controller who may not get an American accent straight away. There’s no doubt to the sound of Mayday or Pan repeated 3 times. American pilots especially have got into bad habits around this, which is why a lot of companies are requesting pilots use the correct phraseology.
@@RLTtizME it makes a huge difference. If you are against something that basic, then you have no idea how aviation works or should work. If you don’t like mayday or pan you are free to say you have an emergency but do it! Declare the emergency and don’t fuck around.
I guess the ATC can read between the lines, but I wonder if the crew ever considered actually sharing their emergency situation. If you think you and your 200 passengers may be being gassed that is an emergency and the words are MAYDAY-MAYDAY three times. Oh, and set the transponder to 7700. It's important. What if ATC hadn't read between the lines and treated this as an emergency? Be professional, not cool and casual.
Ambiguity in any emergency, on the ground or in the air, is a problem. In an emergency, say what you mean, and mean what you say. Now, in fairness to the pilots braodcasting that they are putting on their masks probably got everyone's attention more than a declaration; but, you do see the ATC giving inapropriate instructions to climb, because the pilots are not being clear about their problem until that point.
@@RLTtizME Not until casial amateurism stops getting people killed unnecessarily. If people would communicate properly there'd be nothing to complain about. Which time a bozo got himself killed by not saying the words would you like to hear about? The pilot who was over a military airfield and was told he couldn't land there unless it was an emergency? So he didn't say MAYDAY and blundered on, ran out of fuel, crashed and died. Which other FAA, or pick your international aviation authority, rules do you also think are optional?
@@cenccenc946 Right. But why add to the risk by not claiming your right to priority handling? Why keep your mouth shut and be suspected to be at death's door when you can open it and remove all doubt.
@@RLTtizME No, it just takes time to pull the information out of all the incidents to match what you want. Is this the sort of fatal you need? ua-cam.com/video/7rryvSQhK7k/v-deo.html
Would cabin masks have deployed in this situation? Would that be an automated procedure or manually activated? Can the cabin crew and/or your the pilots deploy the masks? So many questions related to the cabin masks I never really thought about.
They were, hence being asked for fuel & souls aboard, having emergency vehicles meet them, and probably (although we don't see it) carving through a lot of traffic to get the service they needed. I bet it took a while to untangle the mess on approach. Great work by all, but it does seem strange that no mayday, pan or emergency declaration was explicitly stated.
It was quite obvious from 1:42 on that the real problem was a severe bout of flatulence affecting both pilots and causing extreme nausea to the other. Rule 101 states only one pilot shall have beans in the 24 hour period before flight. I think they broke this rule.
Amazing. This controller asked way too many questions. All he should do is keep other people out of the way and let the aircraft tell you what they want.
I love how ATC was pretty casual about the event when it started, asking for a climb to 17000 then as soon as he heard them put the mask on at 2:05 he switched into proper emergency mode (you could hear it in his voice) and gave them full priority. Awesome work by everyone.
Indeed.
Probably someone pressed the button not so accidentally to get the point across and stop the "haggling" for altitudes.
@@Hartbreak1
Yeah highly doubtful considering they had already agreed to level at 6000 long before they put the masks on.
Nice try to attempt to make them look stupid with trivial crap though.
Thats why PAN PAN and MAYDAY calls were invented
@@aurorasstorm5877 😂 I’m not making them look stupid, it seems obvious that they got task saturated early on and wanted to focus on solving the unknown issue. They weren’t acting stupid, they were doing their job.
You can tell the pilots are task saturated trying to manage the situation onboard and maintain communication with ATC. Everything considered they did a fabulous job.
Profissional
I appreciate the fact he asked for a 360 because they weren't setup for the approach. Never force yourself down an ILS unless you are fully ready.
I like that when the controller asked for number of souls and fuel, he made sure to say "only if you have time." Well done everyone!
ATC was awesome, didn't wait, he heard the transmission about putting O2 masks on and started redirecting them for a return to the airport before the crew asked.
CRM at its best!
Any smoke or signs of fire is an immediate return. Good job by ATC for asking for an approach from them before they even had a moment to ask!
@VASAviation It would be really awesome if you could cover the stolen King Air from the Tupelo, Mississippi airport today (9/3/22) that ended up making a controlled landing in a field. Thanks.
I'd like to see that as well
Amazed they landed with one blown tire, for such a heavy landing.
Was the blown tire before or after the landing though? Could have blown on landing due to the weight?
@@letto18 More likely heavy braking - 22L is cutting it a bit fine for a nearly full (it holds 211 pax + at least 7 crew, so 206/218) 767 fuelled for a transcontinental flight (5hrs30 plus enough for a couple of missed approaches and a diversion, still landing with legal reserve, all at around 5 tonnes/hour makes that 69.5 probably thousand pounds, although the most popular 767-300 ER version which N175DN is an example of can hold that many tonnes, this is Delta in the US, so probably legacy units), so they did well not to blow more than one, or be held away from the gate for brake cooling.
@@phillee2814 100% agree with your reasoning Phil. Runway 31L is 12500ft and would have been a better bet with hindsight. Lighter braking and less heat and more wiggle room for landing long. Lord Letto, the tyre probably did not blow. It likely deflated due to the fusible plugs that melt with heat. Heat, continues to rise after braking, due to heat from the brakes; so they most likely deflated on taxi.
@@philipjamesparsons I agree about the use of that runway. Considering the winds, they could've offered 13R which would've had minimal disruption to operations (maybe) and quicker to the gate.
Thank you very much!👍
Hey have you heard about the man who stole a plane over Tupelo Mississippi and was threatening to crash it into a Walmart? Maybe there is audio of the incident you could find?
that was barely related to aviation. It was a guy with a mental issue making threats. ....he just happened to have access to an aircraft to make those threats in a way related to aviation. I don't see a purpose in devoting a video to that behavior.
@@hewhohasnoidentity4377There was a video on this channel about a guy who committed suicide with a plane so it didn't seem too far off to me.
@@tylerg.9418 that was an airliner and a guy who was having the time of his life at the end of his life. He meant no harm to anyone.
This was a guy threatening to crash into Walmart to hurt people.
The only connection is that there is an aircraft.
@@hewhohasnoidentity4377 I see your point but bad behavior has been listed here before. It doesn't have to be condoning anything is what I mean.
Great job guys....I totally lift my Hats to You Pilots, Tower Crew An Aviation Mechanics. 👌🏼
Should have declared, ATC has a better idea.
If you couldn't tell those pilots were overworked- they were asking them much moreso than needed. A fire on an aircraft is extremely dangerous - most of the time it results in complete loss of the aircraft. At that point Tower is asking if they think they can shift on the runway once they are down. The pilots jobs are - Aviate Navigate Communicate - in that order. And they need to communicate with each other and the cabin way before tower.
If a fire breaks out, which could be any moment- they are to ditch- actually ditch their aircraft if needs be to get it on the ground, as it can take only a few minutes for the aircraft to be engulfed in flames with no survivors. Which is why you don't want to be bringing your big lithium batteries on board an aircraft.
In this one circumstance, ATC isn't really much of a factor in the equation of survival- especially at that early section. They are essentially waiting to hear that the cabin crew have begun fighting the fire to buy time. During this period they will be calculating the fastest landing site/best chance. The reason the pilot is showing nerves is the likelihood of death.
Feel free to listen to the recordings of aircraft in this position, but i'll tell you its rough.
It's easy to say "should-woulda-coulda" from the comfort of our homes. Until we find ourselves in that, or a similar situation, we should hold off making armchair-quarterback judgment calls.
These pilots were doing their job (quite well, I might add) dealing with a potential fire (a definite MAYDAY emergencysituation). They prioritized first by *flying* the plane (*aviating*), ensuring they could see/breathe (donning their masks), troubleshooting to properly assess and initally mitigate the threat (fumes/smoke/fire), then they continued to *navigate* (they were in a critical flight phase [below 10,000 ft], climbing on the assigned SID, with *a lot* already happening [takeoff checklist]), then, lastly, they *communicated* with ATC. Talking with ATC is not needed to fly & navigate & troubleshooti, so it has the least priority.
Thevfkip side is that it's not difficult for ATC to see and determine that an aircraft is in distress. If ATC cannot establish or maintain comms with an aircraft (NORDO), they automatically give it priority, and move other nearby aircraft out of the way of the NORDO aircraft. If comms are reestablished, they will verbally ascertain if they are an emergency aircraft. ATC did all of those procedures for this Delta flight, and did a stellar job to boot.
Everyone did an amazing job, and other that smoke/fume inhalation, no one was hurt and made it back safely. Major kudos to all!!
Victor -- nice job with this video!! I loved your timely overlays -- it really helps us see the bigger picture! Well done!
Any time a plane asks to level off, ATC knows that "something" is off. It could have been something benign, or not .... That's why ATC asked.
@@carbon1255 If we want to go down the route of perfect communication it would have been something like: 1."We need to level of, may have a fume/smoke event, probably need to head back, is 4000ft fine?" -> Then around the mask situation (or possibly before) "declaring an emergency/pan-pan/mayday, fumes in cabin, maybe cockpit, return to Kennedy, need a few minutes to set up, stby"
I believe a clear communication of "might have fumes/smoke", will need to return and STBY would have helped there.
You can hear that the first controller gets it as soon as they request to stay below 10 000ft
very professional!
I wonder how long they had to wait for EMTs at the gate. Thanks to the port authority they have to come all the way from Jamaica Queens because they don’t have on site EMT service.
Well. That escalated quickly.
Defenetly well handled by ATC and the pilots. But once again i miss the clear terminology we use here in Europe. PAN-PAN-PAN or MAYDAY-MAYDAY-MAYDAY is way better then...well maybe we declare an emergency but ist not too bad or maybe it is...hard to say....
I think the accidental broadcast of the aircraft control exchange to put on masks was more effective than a mayday call. ....In fact the broadcast may not have been accidental.
@@RLTtizME Least patriotic american.
A clear and quick PAN-PAN-PAN, instead of an accidental „putting masks on“ broadcast, would have given them the required attention… now it was only because the ATC knew what could go down in the cockpit right now… another ATC maybe wouldn‘t have… great ATC and general handling, however would have preferred hearing a clear MAYDAY or PAN
@@RLTtizME Whilst I don’t fully agree with OPs comment - get the plane down is the most important thing first and foremost, American pilots probably should follow what the rest of the world do for several reasons.
The Mayday/Pan-Pan call serves several purposes and is important for more people than you think.
First and foremost, it is the clearest indication of an emergency, and pilots should not be afraid to use it. If you need priority, say it.
Second, pilots in other planes often switch off to the frequencies until they hear their call sign. Everything else becomes noise as there’s a lot happening around JFK.
If Mayday or Pan is declared, every other pilots attention is peaked, and this is useful for planning. Knowing that a runway may be closed means early planning to go to an alternate, especially in a low fuel scenario.
Upon takeoff, calling it may give the next plane a warning there may be debris on the runway. At critical phases of flight, hearing what is happening is important.
Finally, although the language of aviation is English, you may find yourself with a controller who may not get an American accent straight away. There’s no doubt to the sound of Mayday or Pan repeated 3 times.
American pilots especially have got into bad habits around this, which is why a lot of companies are requesting pilots use the correct phraseology.
@@RLTtizME it makes a huge difference. If you are against something that basic, then you have no idea how aviation works or should work. If you don’t like mayday or pan you are free to say you have an emergency but do it! Declare the emergency and don’t fuck around.
Litterally first, can’t wait to watch this one!
I'd like to see 74 Gear cover this video.
I guess the ATC can read between the lines, but I wonder if the crew ever considered actually sharing their emergency situation. If you think you and your 200 passengers may be being gassed that is an emergency and the words are MAYDAY-MAYDAY three times. Oh, and set the transponder to 7700. It's important. What if ATC hadn't read between the lines and treated this as an emergency? Be professional, not cool and casual.
Ambiguity in any emergency, on the ground or in the air, is a problem. In an emergency, say what you mean, and mean what you say. Now, in fairness to the pilots braodcasting that they are putting on their masks probably got everyone's attention more than a declaration; but, you do see the ATC giving inapropriate instructions to climb, because the pilots are not being clear about their problem until that point.
@@RLTtizME Not until casial amateurism stops getting people killed unnecessarily. If people would communicate properly there'd be nothing to complain about. Which time a bozo got himself killed by not saying the words would you like to hear about? The pilot who was over a military airfield and was told he couldn't land there unless it was an emergency? So he didn't say MAYDAY and blundered on, ran out of fuel, crashed and died. Which other FAA, or pick your international aviation authority, rules do you also think are optional?
@@cenccenc946 Right. But why add to the risk by not claiming your right to priority handling? Why keep your mouth shut and be suspected to be at death's door when you can open it and remove all doubt.
@@RLTtizME This has all been done before. Read "Fatal Words. Communication Clashes and Aircraft Crashes" by Steven Cushing.
@@RLTtizME No, it just takes time to pull the information out of all the incidents to match what you want. Is this the sort of fatal you need?
ua-cam.com/video/7rryvSQhK7k/v-deo.html
Would cabin masks have deployed in this situation? Would that be an automated procedure or manually activated?
Can the cabin crew and/or your the pilots deploy the masks?
So many questions related to the cabin masks I never really thought about.
I think they only deploy automatically when there is a pressure loss otherwise it is upto the pilot
Why weren't they designated as an emergency?
They were, hence being asked for fuel & souls aboard, having emergency vehicles meet them, and probably (although we don't see it) carving through a lot of traffic to get the service they needed. I bet it took a while to untangle the mess on approach.
Great work by all, but it does seem strange that no mayday, pan or emergency declaration was explicitly stated.
1:44 to pilots it's an "Oder" too New Yorker's it's an "Aroma"
Must have been Taco Tuesday😁
This ATC sounds very much like the one out of LAX who had the exchange with the American pilot back in Feb. Could it be the same one?
👍✈✈👍
Even with the mask on they sounded a bit off. Idk if it was panic or the fumes were real fumes, but they barely got their own callsign right...
It was quite obvious from 1:42 on that the real problem was a severe bout of flatulence affecting both pilots and causing extreme nausea to the other.
Rule 101 states only one pilot shall have beans in the 24 hour period before flight. I think they broke this rule.
Probably a fume event
deltas 767s are not doing well lately
This is what happens when someone eats Taco Bell before boarding the plane
Farting on plane should be illegal
Amazing. This controller asked way too many questions. All he should do is keep other people out of the way and let the aircraft tell you what they want.
Did Delta compensate the passengers who bought non-smoking tickets? No, wait...that joke doesn't work anymore
You joke is about 40 years too late.
@@AaronShenghao less than that. I'm 41 and I remember smoking being allowed.
@@AaronShenghao Well, I was watching the movie Airplane again...as anyone sensible does at least once a year.