Using the Wing Paddle -- What We Have Learned After 6000 Miles in the Surfski
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- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
- We can go ahead and get these things out of the way. Yes, Rod has a giant cartoon thumb (more on that later), and yes, the audio is up and down a bit (the GoPro audio lost its mind). But now that you have those distractions out of the way...a couple of years ago, when we were first learning wing paddles and all things surfski, we posted a video talking about the settings we were using as beginners, and why we using those settings.
Fast forward a couple of years and over 6000 miles of bucket time, and we've changed a few things. In this video, Rod shares a few of the tips we've learned along the way. Hopefully, these tips will help others paddlers as they take up this amazing sport.
To sum it up:
1. We have shortened our paddle lengths.
2. We have downsized our paddles.
3. We use a 0 degree feather.
4. We use the wing paddle like it's a wing, and not like it's a canoe paddle.
As always, we invite you to share your knowledge and experience -- leave us a comment!
Want to see the original video? You can find it at • How To Adjust A Surfsk... . - Спорт
Use only as much strength as an old grandma for the entire session. Resist the frustration as you will go nowhere. After a while, you learn to plant the paddle at just the right angle, right tilt, right speed to get the max pull. You will also learn to adjust the speed and angle profile during the pull so the paddle stay hooked to the water. After more frustration, you will start to go at a respectable pace. Using only the strength of grandma, you can't mask mistake with strength.
Once you feel the paddle firmly hooked to the water, and every movement is creating propulsion, then you can apply full power, and have an explosive speed.
Great info, thanks for sharing!
Thats probably the greatest tip I've heard so far.
About a year ago I changed from 218cm to 212cm for marathon racing, and from 700 cm square to 610. Two years ago I changed from a 65 degree feather to zero. My average speed in 5 km time trails with half with and half against a current is still around 10.3 kph. Now I can maintain that speed for longer races.
My technique has improved to negate the power loss from age 71 to 75. I have saved a few capsizes because of better bracing with the zero feather.
Totally agree with your 4 points.
Elmer, thanks for sharing your experience. Keep smoking those time trials! 'Loving that you're paddling at age 75 -- we hope to be doing the same!
Coming from years of competitive dragon boat, OC1 and OC6 paddling and recreational kayaking there is a lot to figure out with surfski paddling and "wing" (to me, the logical name would be "spoon" but ok I won't use that) paddles. I'm in an Epic V9. The "reach it out" mantra of single blade paddling had me setting paddle length too long. This video gives god tips, thanks!
Glad it was helpful, Richard. We found that, too -- lots of single blade experience can make the wing paddle, er, spoon paddle, difficult at first. Once the feel/technique clicks, it's a magical thing. :) Thanks for your comment -- that V9 is a fun boat!
I have been using a mid wing for over a year now, and really like it. I found the best way to adjust it, is to look for the LEAST amount of cavitation. So start with your dominant hand and paddle till there is no cavitation from the blade, then adjust the other blade to minimize cavitation as well.
Now that I think of it, probably similar to your 'forward facing' approach.
But just look for bubbles. Cavitation is a resistive force, working against your stroke.
No bubbles, No Problems
Great advice, Michael!
Do you mean turbulence?
Now we’re getting into a complex subject! Bubbles (cavitation) are evidence of turbulence. In the case of water propulsion, which is a non-compressible fluid, bubbles are also usually evidence of low propulsive efficiency. In swimming, athletes attempt to minimize the bubbles in their stroke and kick in order to go faster. Very good swimmers typically move very quietly through the water and I assume a paddler should, too. Finding a paddle stroke that is quieter and produces the fewest bubbles will be evidence (all variables being held constant) of efficiency. But it might be more complicated. True cavitation usually comes from extreme (propeller-type) speed, way faster than a paddler could produce and fully underwater. So the “cavitation” might be the same source as we find in swimmers, which is that bubbles are produced BY the entry, pulling air down with the paddle due, for example, to not fully burying the paddle in the water before moving rearward. Also very inefficient. The focus should be on a clean entry and efficient hydrodynamic pull (such as described here, involving efficient lift) and clean exit. For all of them, even small angle changes can make a big difference, as can different paddle accelerations. But you’re looking (in general) for quiet, low-bubble, low-splash paddling and that takes both a lot of time (reps) and experimentation. I’m going on watching highly competitive paddlers who demonstrate this sort of efficiency. One suggestion might be to work on stroke technique at first slowly and repetitively before you work on turnover. In short, michaelaldeny524 above is saying the same thing, so I hope I didn’t diverge too much from what he said! 😅 I would modify his last statement, perhaps, “fewer bubbles, less sound, less splash, more efficient.”
Teaching cue: Paddle as if you were a twin-engine aircraft. The wing paddle works exactly like an aircraft propeller blade.
That is a great cue! Thanks for sharing that.
Cool analogy
Agree with all your comments. What helps me monitor my technique is watching my high hand cut across my field of vision which unsures I’m rotating properly and the paddle blade is moving laterally in the water. Thanks for video.
That's a great cue -- thanks for sharing it with us!
I do this too! Great tip, thanks for the comment.
One learning aid I found was good for a wing was that the blade enters and leaves the water on your bow wake.
Helped moving the blade away from the boat.
Learnt to sea kayak using wing paddles right from the start. Used an Epic Mid wing (mid small) and have recently moved to a Meek Series A small and the difference was astounding. The Meek is a lot more forward than the epic and exits the water much easier. Cadence can be higher with a lot better acceleration onto waves. Can easily catch ocean swells in an expedition boat with 40kg of gear/water/food.
Went back to the epic when a mate wanted a go with the Meek and could not believe how much it grabbed the water in the last third of the stroke.
Even easier on shoulders than the Epic and really encourages sitting correctly.
Really encourage anyone looking at paddles to try out as many as you can, there are some massive improvements available if you look.
The bow wake tip is a great one -- we've found that to be very helpful. The Meek paddles look very interesting. Maybe we can find some in the U.S. to try out here. Thanks for sharing your experience!
I'm trying to get back into paddling my surfski again, owner of a V10Sport Performance layup here. I'm enjoying your content a lot ! Awesome work and thank you for posting.
Thanks, Eliezer! That is a great surfski --- glad you're getting back into it again. Thanks for your kind comment!
It was nice meeting you before the start of the 2022 Carolina Cup. Barry's performance there was very impressive! I've gone somewhat the opposite direction in moving to the Epic mid wing at 45 deg feather from small-mid wing at 0 deg. But I'm just trying different things and can't really say what works best for me yet. Some feathering does feel like it aids in rotation for me. I will try your advice to visualize pulling with the top edge of the blade next time I paddle and see what that does. I too wish I could find a coach, but I've never seen anyone paddling surfski in the Raleigh area except for me and anyone I introduce to the sport! Thanks again for your all your videos.
Matt, it was great to meet you, too! Congratulations on taking on that challenging race course! I think experimenting with different approaches is key to learning what works best for each of us. We're all completely unique, and need to find the approach that works best for each of us. 'Looking forward to hearing more about what works for you, and to seeing you at future events! Check out events like tomorrow's Bear Town Paddle Battles in New Bern tomorrow - it's a great way to meet other NC surfski paddlers, and it's a great event. I'm going to miss it this year, but maybe we'll see you there next year.
@@rodclayton I'll have to put Bear Town Paddle Battles on my calendar for next year. It would probably be more suited to the kind of training I do in lakes around Raleigh than Carolina Cup. The Graveyard course was the first time I've been out on the open ocean!
Love your advice. Thank you. I'm just starting out with an Epic V7 and looking at the Epic Wing paddle... Thank you. Safe paddling 🙏
We're stoked for you on that V7! You're going to love it. Thanks for your kind comment -- we're looking forward to hearing from you as you enjoy your surfski journey. We're still constantly learning, and it's fun to share with other paddlers like yourself.
Welcome back!
1. I find that the blade's size is related to my preferred cadance on flater conditions, I like it slow and strong rather fast and easier. It is a personal choice basically. In rougher situation when faster corrections are needed the smaller blade is usually better.
2. Same thing with the length of the shaft, it is totally related to the conditions, a lot of trial and error until you will find what is working for you. I usually use the max langth in most conditions (I am pretty tall). I use 45 degrees angle, because this is my natural comfort zone, been trying the 0 and 60 as well. Each one is build differently.
3. I think that the advantage of a winged blade paddle is the ability to really make a strong pivot around the entrance point into the water, it holds the catch firmly while allowing a good rotation around it. I used to watch tons of K1 instructional vids, it helped me a lot.
All the best from Israel.
Heeeeyyyyy @chenkarp, good to hear from you, as always! Rod is a little more suited to the power paddling and preferred the slow strong approach from the start, but has migrated toward easier and faster. Maybe it's because we almost always are paddling choppy waters, or maybe it's because he's getting old...erm, mature. 'Love the way you phrased the advantage of the winged blade paddle -- that makes a lot of sense!
Nice vid guys. Missed your videos. Big fan of the Epic small mid wing with 0 degree feather.
Thanks, Greg. Thanks for sharing your paddle preferences -- it always good to hear what others are doing!
when l paddle my K1 kayak with a high seat my paddle is 216cm , but when l'm paddling my ocean ski and the seat is much lower it goes down to 210cm and yes l have a shorter stroke
l was told many years ago when using the wing paddle and like you have said , don't take a long stroke because it should finish at the hip and anything pass that is a waste. l fined the 60 degrees works for me because of my body rotation, l use a small size blade which is easier on the shoulders when doing long sessions. l liked the video.
Keith, that makes sense, that you would adjust the paddle for the different craft. That is definitely something for us to keep in mind. Thanks for sharing your experience with us -- love it!
may I recommend a wireless mic, will do wonders to boost the overall sound quality ;)
A wireless mic is a great idea, Steven...but every time we talk about buying one, we convert "mic dollars" to "paddle gear dollars", and paddle gear dollars always win... :)
Excellent video. I've been fighting shortening my paddle because I equate a longer stroke to more speed. Much like yourself I found when I dropped down to a shorter length I was actually a little quicker and my rotation was better. As far as following the Leading Edge of the paddle there's a great way to learn that. Put your thumb and fingers over the top of the paddle as your paddling, keep a loose grip and the paddle will automatically do its own thing. Eventually you'll get a feel for it. Learning how to paddle with your thumb over the top is also a great way to take a break and relieve strain. Thanks for your videos. Edit to add I also got away from epic paddles. I tried the stellar mid-wing. It's not as forgiving but in my opinion it's much faster. I can't go back to the Epic at this point. I'm sure there are other great paddles out there that I haven't tried
Great tip, John. We've actually used that, especially on longer paddles. Thanks for bringing that up. We haven't tried the Stellar paddles -- glad to hear it's working well for you!
@@ThePaddleChannel the Stellar paddle is not very forgiving. Paddling my v10 G3 for the first time with that paddle was a big mistake. I was used to the Epic which has a much firmer catch. The Stellar is more finesse but I feel its a more powerful paddle. If you get a chance check it out.
Looking forward to applying your description of using the wing. Ive struggled with trying to not set and pull the paddle.
Let us know if that works, David, or if you hit upon another variation of that cue that helps you out. 'Looking forward to hearing how it goes!
Due to lack of space, I paddle a high pressure inflatable 380x64cm kayak instead of a K1 or surfski. This is also my first season so I'm not sure if I could even handle such narrow boats, probably not. I paired my drop stitch kayak with an Epic Small Mid Wing, full carbon, 210cm. I kept experimenting with feather, while learning the correct paddling technique at the same time. I took lessons from sprinters. Starting with 30deg feather, I kept making "plop" sounds on the left stroke all the time, which means waste of power. Went up to 45deg, still the same. Came back to 30 after some time to experience more problems with the left stroke. Eventually, I went up to 60deg feather and now it seems correct. Don't get me wrong, as a first season beginner paddler, I have a ton of work ahead of me to do it all right. But at the moment, 60deg is what works for me. I was also told by a sprint coach to keep my right wrist as straight as possible so I'm working on that now. I love the sport and there is really much to learn here 😁
I'm also not as strong or fit as many of you but both my Epic Small Mid Wing and Brača VII 725 work for me really great.
It's great you have access to good lessons/coaching and are taking the time experiment with your technique. We're convinced learning surfski is a lifelong endeavor -- so glad to hear you're enjoying your journey. Thanks for sharing!
When i got my first new Epic paddle a couple years back and it was the first new paddle i got myself after using a fixed length offset paddle i got 20 years ago . when i first got it the Epic dealer looked at me , knew what type of paddling i was going to do , he set the adjustable Small Mid Wing Club Carbon at 212 and 60 degrees. Haven't changed it since and now have upgraded to the Small Mid Wing Full Carbon Pro Grip.
Sounds like that dealer is a good resource. Do you find the full carbon to be significantly stiffer than the club carbon?
@@ThePaddleChannel i do find it stiffer, i feel and have proven through my average paddle , speed and distances that its getting more power through the stroke. Maybe im getting fitter !! haha
@@troyandrew74 that's always the goal, isn't it? :) Great feedback, thanks for sharing.
I'd suggest: first set you paddle length to get the right angle of entry into the water to suit your body geometry and your boat then choose your blade size to get a comfortable cadence. Split paddles make experimenting with feather easy, personally in a sprint boat I like around 25 degrees but that is just what works for me. Highly recommend checking out paddling technique videos from kayak sprinters and marathon paddlers, they translate well to skis.
Thanks for sharing!
Appreciate your ideas here, and they correspond closely to my own conclusions. I've been using the Epic Small Mid Wing paddle for a couple of years now, with my Epic V-8 Surfski and my Epic GPx kayak. Coming from high quality Werner kayak paddles, the wing was, and is a game-changer. Felt pretty intuitive and powerful for me, unfeathered (0-degree), right from the start. Love the adjustability, from 205-215, as this enables me to optimize the length for the boat and conditions I am paddling in. Works equally well for me with high angle and medium angle stroke techniques.
Thanks for sharing, David. It sounds like you have a lot of experience, so it's good to hear what you've found.
Sounds go up and down like a Yoyo. Good vid and advice.
It does...and thanks! Maybe one day we'll upgrade the sound gear...but probably we would just buy paddling gear instead... :)
Tommy is watching everything that you have made.
Lol, you should be able to learn a lot about what NOT to do, as we have pretty much shared the whole journey. We're still learning, and still loving it!
Oh boy. Some of our early videos are a little hard to watch but hopefully it encourages others who are new to the sport like us. Surfski is such a great community.
Nice video. Sorry I am going to miss you guys at Beartown. Work obligations came up
'Hate we won't see you, Jody. Barry is racing this weekend...Rod's cartoon thumb is going to prevent him from going. 'Hope to see you soon!
Understand Jody! See you soon.
Great video. I've been paddling surfski for about 10 years and have evolved in a similar way: Shorter paddle shaft and smaller blade. One thing I'm wondering: How did you manage your change from 60 degree feather to 0? There is so much muscle memory developed at the feather angle, that it'd feel weird to go to 0 degrees. What was your experience with that transition?
William, I don't think I had been paddling at 60 long enough to really develop serious muscle memory, but even so, I just decreased incrementally by 10-15 degrees until I felt comfortable...then rinse (sometimes literally, when I missed a brace) and repeat until I got back to 0. It was easier than I thought it would be, but I had nowhere near the muscle memory you will have with 10 years of experience at that feather. Let us know how your transition goes, if you decide to go with it!
What kind of shaft stiffness do you use? I use jantex super flexi soft which is much easier on my old mans joints. I use a medium minus 740cm blade as its used for surfski and sprint/marathon K1. If it was dedicated to surfski I would probably drop a size
i also change paddle length depending on conditions. The shorter length not only helps stability in the bumps but aids quick acceleration to catch waves. The longer lengths are better in mild or flatwater when you have more of a loping along at steady lower cadence stroke
We both use the Epic club carbon paddle -- on purpose, because it is a little softer. We used to change paddle length based on conditions, but pretty much keep the length the same now all the time...but we're hitting choppy and/or ocean waters as often as possible, so maybe that's why we don't play with changing lengths any more. Thanks for sharing!
Hi guys, I really like your videos. Completely unrelated to this video but are you planning on reviewing the Epic v9? Thank you
Thanks, Simon. We don't have access to a V9 currently. Rod paddled one on flatwater for bit and really liked it. Stability is right where the numbers put it (between a V8 and a V10 Sport), and it felt very nimble and maneuverable. But we haven't spent enough time in one to do a proper review. Maybe one day!
I'm a few months short of 80 and paddle mostly for exercise.I recently bought an epic small wing . I dislike it immensely. Unless you buy the most expensive one you have to have an oval shaft, no other choice. The other couple of things I don't like about it is, it feels too light compared to my stealth kayak's carbon one, and the other is after trying to figure out why it felt so weird in the catch with a feeling of movement in the paddle. I was talking at the water's edge with a friend and we had both my paddles. I was describing how they felt so different, with the epic feeling like it fluttered in my hands and was dropping the blades in turn as we talked. I hit me straight away, as you could see why. the heavier Stealth carbon blade just went straight down without deflection into the water. The Epic's blade, as it went in, scooped forward and sort of pushed up. It was to do with my light grip on the shaft being so used to my normal paddle which incidentally has the almost same dimensions as the epic except for having a round shaft. sorry, this was so long.
Michael, it's interesting to hear your experience...thanks for sharing. We're pretty pleased with the Epic small wing, but that's just what we know and are accustomed to...and oddly, we prefer the oval shaft over a round shaft (again, it's what we know and are accustomed to). That is something for paddlers to keep in mind as we take on new equipment. Thanks again for your perspective!
Great video, what do you think about hand placement. One coach I know days 1/3 1/3 1/3 tip/hand/hand/tip where another one says elbows at 90 degrees when paddle head. I’m at 1/3 method, but GoPro from behind makes me look cramped (more angle in elbow) compared to my Wife in our double. But I feel I have good strength feel and downward pressure on blade. Also protect my shoulders from a wider grip. . Thanks
We've played with this a lot, and for the 1/3 method comes pretty close to 90 degrees...not exactly, but pretty close. Our thoughts are that every paddler is unique, with different points of muscle attachment, injuries, flexibility, etc, so each paddler should adjust to what works best for them, after trying each method. We recommend using the 1/3 method and seeing how that feels (but that is a bit dependent on having a "correct" paddle length), then trying the 90 degree method, and adjusting a centimeter or two to what works best for you. We like to revisit that spacing a couple of times a year to see if anything has changed, as our technique and style mature. 'Hope that helps!
@@ThePaddleChannel Thanks paddle Chanel.
This has prompted a much needed review of my paddle setup. The difference between 1/3 and 90’ is 100mm each side. 90’ method only leaves 50mm of shaft left showing. But I hear you, and I need to experiment .
Standing in front of the mirror,air paddling, 1/3 feels better more dynamic like a dancer and compact but I noticed when I was at 90’ paddle seem to exit the water quicker, and not lazily drag behind me. But it’s, A bit more mechanical.
Anyway food for thought. thanks, I will play round more
Rod, you did a great job with this video.
The Epic link is very helpful.
The Epic link is helpful, but basing your paddle length setting on height is really just general ballparking. Torso/leg ratio varies widely across individuals as well as arm lengths and shoulder widths. The Epic paddle length suggestion apparently was close for these guys, but I guarantee you that will not always be so for all individuals.
Very true, Paul -- the Paddle Wizard can be a good starting point, but everybody will need to experiment to find their own details. It's just a good place to start.
What is zero degree feather
On adjustable paddles, you can rotate the shaft so your paddle faces are not parallel to each other. So, with a 45 degree feather, if one paddle face is parallel with the ground, for example, the other paddle face would be rotated 45 degrees. At 90 degrees, one paddle face would be parallel to the ground, while the other would be rotated at 90 degrees, and would be facing straight away from you (or toward you, depending -- but either way, it would be perpendicular to the ground) At a zero degree feather, both paddle faces would be facing the ground, parallel to each other and the ground. Hope that makes sense -- it's kinda hard to explain. surfski.info/latest-news/story/1647/to-feather-or-not-to-feather.html has a nice picture of a paddle at 90 degree feather. It might be helpful to see that.
Here's a link to a timely article about feather -- Epic released it just recently: www.epickayaks.com/post/choosing-the-right-paddle-angle-for-surfski-paddlers-the-shift-to-a-lower-feather
@@ThePaddleChannel thanks very much it helps me
Much simpler than that long complicated explanation on wing tracking - let the paddle go where it wants to go. The only way a wing paddle will dive under you is if you try to force it down the side of the boat like a regular paddle. If you just pull back and don’t try to direct it along the boat, it will find the most efficient track. Very simple. Don’t have to think about propellers or wings. Just let it go where it wants. 🤷🏻♂️
Different teaching cues resonate with different individuals, so a variety of explanations can be beneficial to a variety of paddlers.
Most paddlers have been conditioned all their lives to "paddle with a pull" -- place the blade and pull. We've found that simply telling a developing paddler to "let the paddle go where it wants" still results in a pull, and their habit overcomes the natural path of the wing paddle.
The first step is to let go of the pull concept and realize the wing wants to travel outward, toward that leading edge. The second step is to realize the surfski stroke is a push, not a pull. And yep, after that, the wing will find its own efficient path.
No doubt your succinct explanation will connect with some paddlers and cause that light bulb moment -- thanks for sharing.
0 degrees is the only logical angle to be on with a wing paddle.
We like it... :) Though there are a lot of paddles out there who are feathering their wing paddle. We spend a lot time discussing why, whether that is mainly because of it's the way they were taught originally and have gotten used to it, or if it truly is beneficial. Or if it's not a one-size-fits-all situation. Thanks for your comment!
I agree. My theory is that all the legendary paddlers learned from a coach that used a paddle that was feathered to 45 or 60 degrees and therefore this has been passed down from generation to generation. Perhaps there is no wrong answer as long as you are paddling!
Absolute nonsense.
@@paddlingfool64 So how did you go about finding your feathering angle?
A week ago, I was paddling upwind at 30kn gusts (officially) and zero feather wasn’t much of a hindrance. My favorite thing about wing paddles is that you can instantly feel if you’re losing lift.
Great point about feeling the lift. We've found the same, for us, in high winds and zero feather. Thanks for sharing your experience!