CYC Photon Motor the worlds most Compact Mid drive?
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- Some first thoughts on the new CYC Photon motor. This is a 750 watt mid drive unit with a torque based PAS sensor. These are some first thoughts from a design perspective as well as price. I have not had the chance to ride using this motor so if you have would love to hear from you in the comments.
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Nice review and valid criticism's. I can be more blunt.
The BBSHD beats the Photon on power and cost and part ubiquity for cheap. The BBSHD...I own two is the best value strong ebike motor on the market.
The BBSHD beats the CYC Stealth and Pro on sound and cost as well. Where I sit, Chinese based Bafang beats CYC at what they do.
One positive of the Photon is torque sensing. For me, not enough to bridge the divide on cost and power. I come from a competitive cycling background and have no problem with cadence sensing and can easily add 200-300 extra watts of pedal power for a target speed relative to motor output and my contribution of human power. I ride with heart rate and have no problem staying in zone 2 for example. Riding with a cadence sensor that doesn't change motor output is a skill.
Its hard to become a main player in the ebike motor market. Bafang gets their price benefit from volume. CYC doesn't have this luxury and likely can't support a common practice of 'buying the market' like Lexus some many remember in the auto space, they sold effectively a Mercedes Benz for the price of a Toyota. Now look at Lexus. Many prefer a Lexus to any German luxury brand due to reliability. Lexus intially bought the market and incrementally increased prices until there was deserved demand for their products. Btw, Tesla is looking to do this in the future because they have a leaner cost structure compared to other world auto brands trying to break into the EV space.
Market share matters because with greater volume becomes more opportunity for profit as volume X smaller profit/unit still = revenue. More revenue promotes more R&D reinvestment and greater market potential through better products. Its synergistic.
Also, CYC doesn't have the best track record on reliability. Bafang in spite of being Chinese with related stigma that is changing over time as China comes up to speed, they make reliable products. My BBSHD's have been bulletproof and I use the full potential of each motor.
We as a community will see if CYC can gain traction with the Photon. So far, the price to performance ratio isn't there. One can buy a comparable BBS02 for 1/2 price if you can forgive torque sensing. Most for that price difference can overlook this detail. I can.
I don't really see it as a competition for the BBSHD in many ways. That motor is such a beast and easy to maintain and get spares for. I am very happy to see this motor though. We need more and more competition out there. It will drive innovation. I hope to give one a go one day. I was not very impressed with the torque assist on the Ultra motor I tried. Maybe I am too used to 4000 watts lol. Thanks for the comment.
NAIL..HEAD!
Cheers Jeff
This looks like the product I have been waiting for. Really like the look of the design. I already have a good donor bike and a battery so that helps a lot with the cost. I have ordered one so hopefully it’s all good. Great videos. Thanks
You are welcome Alan, let us know how you get on.
Update?
Great video, I plan on using this motor on my cross bike and making my own battery and vms.
Cool. I have some newer videos covering the installation as well as some riding footage.
Great video, I agree it is too expensive and could use some updated redesign to fix the issues you pointed out. I will stick with my BBSHD with HV kit 72v!
Once you have 4000 watts there is not going back. I can see the appeal of this and I hope that the things I raise are not going to cause people big problems. We need CYC to do well as they are going to push other companies to do more as well. Cheers
Definitely a interesting! I will look forward to finding out more information on this motor in the upcoming weeks and months. Your points in regards to cooling and cleaning are certainly valid the cooling fins look very close.
Cheers Daniel, hope you are well.
@@HighVoltageKits your welcome.
I'm great thanks hope you and your family are well also...
Doing good so far thanks. Looking forward to more settled year.
Crying out for an aftermarket aftermarket debris screen or guard...
I’m used to riding at a constant 80-90 rpm cadence and using gears to adjust effort. I’ve been worried the cadence/throttle kits would drive me nuts. Happy to see this released as a hopefully viable torque sensing solution. I accept that technology might cost a bit more.
The cadence kits are not as sensitive but it's funny some folks prefer the feel. With the bbshd there is a program called Karl's special sauce which is far better than the setting it comes with. It will never feel as natural as TS though but with the right levels you can get close. I used to use 50 watt increments and then have the power decay past a certain peddle rpm to kero as close to a constant effort as possible with changes in terrain.
@@HighVoltageKits interesting trick - good to see what’s possible!
Can't wait to see this motor put through the test .
100%
BBSHD on Amazon: 735.00 including shipping. Add a Lekkie, that's 850. Photon is 850 with free shipping on a site I just checked. So same price. Yes, the BB is more powerful. also 4 lbs heavier, no torque sensing, need brake and gear cut off, etc. I may go with the Photon.
I got a 2022 Giant Talon 1 on the way and need to decide what route i'm gonna take soon.
It depends on what you want, I guess. If you want to ride mountain bike trails a lot with PAS, then the Photon looks good. It's also pretty new. Historically, cyc stuff breaks way more soon and frequently than Bafang. The Bafang is less sophisticated, but you can modify it to have much more power etc. The brake cuttoffs as well as display I think have to be added in to the cyc price? Might be a few bucks more. It's not that far off, tho.
@@HighVoltageKits Display comes with the kit I thought. I have no intention on using brake cutoffs. prolly wont use gear shift cut offs either. twist throttle and common sense.
I would spec one out. I there are add-ons. A 100mm bb version is more for example
Definitely see the need for a mudguard bash guard combo that scoops air past it. I like how cyc's other kits have a range of brackets to get them up into the triangle on applicable frames. I guess thats just not possible on a user friendly enclosed drive.
Yeah its a bit tight to the frame. A guard would also reduce air flow. Front mudguards on the wheel would help tho.
The crank length, but mainly the chainring size has been holding me back on buying it
There is a 32, 38, 42 and 50t l. The cranks are 65 or 70. If think lekkie might be making aftermarket parts though soon.
@@HighVoltageKits im pretty much going to either go with lift_mtb kit or lightest ebike kit... both seem like they'd be better quality than the other 3 china motors
Well 2 china motors and where ever this one is produced
I hope water ingress does not become an issue.
I do like the overall design immensely.
Having got one now I don't think it will be a problem.
@@HighVoltageKits looks like it would also work well on road bikes.
Addressing obvious design issues.
Clearly for the already own and vested heavily in their MTB of choosing, we which will justify price point and the target market. Great succinct review.
Thanks. It will be interesting to see what bikes are built over the next few months.
That is where I'm at - a conversion is the logical way ahead for me, I'm already severely invested (in time, not money) and get a far better frame and components than almost any prebuilt options, and this route is less expensive, too (I do it all myself). Plus, if the battery or motor dies, I can revert the bike back to its original configuration, you cannot do that with prebuilt. And if the bike dies, I can move the motor and battery on to the next one.
The concerns you bring up are valid. Makes me look at the Gen 3 X1 Stealth instead.
We will find out. Have one arriving here Tuesday!
I had been looking forward to see this one but after seeing the overall size and power of it I think I may have to wait for it's big brother as I'm 330pds
Yeah. Might need a bit more grunt. That is said to be later this year.
@@HighVoltageKitsI’m a bigger rider as well and looking to electrify my cargo bike. Any idea what the more powerful photon style motor’s specs will be? 1000-1200W stock?
Always overlooked: pre-made ebikes are trash when their motors/batteries are no longer sold. In a traditional bike, you simply swap in any new retro-fit motor/battery...or re-install the original crankset and use the motor on a different bike. Purpose-built bikes limit you to THAT bike frame, THAT battery, and THAT motor.
Yes! Its a huge source of frustration for me. Bosch and Shimano are horrible for this kind of practice some of the smaller companies disappear regularly. We have a few solutions in the works for some of these which will be shown over the net few months all being good.
Was thinking the same as I'm watching , DIY lots can be swapped easy
I sooo want one of these.
I’m thinking about this motor or the “lightest” ebike motor from Bikee Bike in Italy which also has torque sensing, I want a low power lightweight mid drive motor and the CYC can be tuned down. The CYC seems great for what I intend but the price (in Canada too) seems steep. I appreciate your analysis of small, details like location of cables exiting the motor,
Hey Charles. Sadly most things are expensive here in Canada when imported. Golden motor has no import tax on Photons. There will also be the new motors from TOSEVEN which are torque sensing. There are some video on those on the channel as well. I have not ridden the Italian ones.
@@HighVoltageKits my application is different. I have a mini velo bike I love and another mountain bike I have fitted with a motor (front hub). I find I want to use about 50 watts most of the time with obvious need for more with hills and loads. Anyway the need to tune power would be very useful because I just don’t get enough of a workout at anything above 50 watts power from motor cruising unless I go over 33 kmph. I’m checking out the TOSEVEN so thanks for that heads up.
Great review finding some legitimate observations based on media previews without jumping to conclusions before hands-on experience.
You say this is oriented to the mtb crowd. Why? The exposed fins and smaller size might suggest higher cadence but less demanding road applications are better?
But I’ve never ridden an eBike so I might have it all backwards!
It's based on seeing who is in the online groups and what they are doing with the motors. These people already have decent bikes in many cases. I don't see many CYC motors going on road bikes. But you know what, why the heck not. It has a good ts so no reason why it would not do great on a road bike. CYC are a good company I hope it does well. If you pick one up be sure to let us know how you get on.
As you said, the pricing reaches where, for some, buying a pre-built bike with an integrated motor and battery makes more sense. I'd personally be more interested in the integrated motor-powered bikes/framesets (as would frameset builders) IF there was an integrated motor mount standard. Same thing & problem, I'm sorry to say, for the frame integrated batteries. At least with the bolt-on motor and a generic battery, if a better one comes along or repair part availability becomes a problem, you can swap out. With the current integrated bike lack of standards, can't fix - throw it out.
That's a good point on the batteries. Some of the smaller ones are leaving people with useless bikes. This will appeal to some. I just felt the price point and power means it's competing with that market.
I had the misfortune to ride a Trek Powerfly hardtail a few days ago, and that definitely steers me towards fitting a kit to my own bike. The Trek rode like a tank, had inadequate components (especially brakes) and wasn't particularly responsive. Definitely not what I'd enjoy riding, and add in the proprietary nature of the motor and battery, I don't want to be that dependent on the manufacturer for support in 10 years.
One thing that they have changed is the power, it is 750 watts to stay street legal in the U.S but it can be unlocked to run over 2000 watts at 52v. I feel that this makes this worth the higher cost because an electric bike this compact and inconspicuous with that much power is awesome.
There is no way this will pull 2000 watts for any length of time. The one review place was hitting 60C at 500 watts. It's just too small to run that power and shed the heat effectively. 2000 watts at 52 volts is pretty big amps and it's tiny. I really thought that they would have learned that lesson when they were making claims of 6000 watts on the X1. It will come down to simple physics. All to often numbers are thrown around as marketing. Don't get me wrong. I like this motor overall but what really matters is how it rides. My X1 gets really hot after 4km of 10% at 2500-3500 watts at 72 volts. Maybe this will handle a quick burst at 2000. I very much doubt it will do any length of time. But then again these motors were never meant to be used like a moped or mini dirt bike. Bit of a long winded answer but hopefully it helps.
I forgot to mention that I hoped this was true because there are very few testing videos online and no one really put it to it's limits so I am definitely being optimistic hoping that it can accomplish this but I'll never know until I get one and test it. It seems better than the other more common mid drives like bafang, even though their claims are a bit outlandish.
It could be really amazing. The torque sensor is responsive based on reviews. Let us know how you get on. Even if it won't do 2000 watts it should give an exciting ride.
Great Video. I heard the new motor in the same style planned for later this year will be called the "Proton". But I'm interested in pre-ordering the Photon myself, 750w is enough for me. This is exactly what I've been waiting for. I'm a mountain biker, so I want the natural ride feeling from torque assist, so BBS01 is no good. And the TSDZ is not built strong enough IMO. Regarding price, the Canadian distributor Golden bike has it at $1147.50 Cad with free shipping. And I can pick up a 48v10ah battery for $300. And I assume most DIYers will already have a bike to install this on. But for me, the modular nature of this system is what appeals to me most. I can install this to my hardtail this year, and maybe upgrade to a full-suspension next year. And the availability of parts from the manufacturer. The cheapest 500wh battery from Norco is $1200CAD. The 500wh battery I'm buying is $300...
That's a pretty good price. Golden are based in the USA now so import taxes are likely unless they have a warehouse in Canada. please let me know how you get on with it!
@@HighVoltageKits are you certain? I see them being in Bolton, Ontario. they are called “Golden Motors”, I think I may have said Golden Bike above…
You can check which would be best. I chat with the owner Muj from time to time. I'm sure they moved the operation. I'll be happy to be wrong tho.
@@HighVoltageKits I just received word they have staff both in Canada and the US. And the motors will ship from both locations which is great news.
That is great news! Duty is a royal pain in the backside in Canada!
Built in controller?
Does the controller allow field weakening?
Is it compatible with 72V?
i like to compact look and at a "1000W" It could be an awesome bit of kit.
This Looks like it could lead to something really good.
If CYC are as dedicated to mid drives as they seem to be I can see a similar design but bigger motor coming from them....At least I hope so!!
Edit: I just had a squizy at their website and it looks like 750W is a very conservative figure. Three different models allowing field weakening and some serious power.
I am excited. If they run relatively quiet it will be a definite kit for a future project!
This one I don't know about fw. I kind of doubt it tho. 52 volts max. Supposed to be a proton version later this year with more power.
Definitely a good intercity option
Yeah. Thats true on a hardtail. I wonder how a dh frame would look
I loved my tongsheng but it wasn't robust enough
That is what I generally heard about it. They are meant to have a newer version in the works.
@@HighVoltageKits It didn't stand up to the rigors of my job, I went through 4 motors in the space of 2 years. The waterproofness was lacking too. not good for the British weather
If you really want a Quiet bike get a Hubmotor. But every new DIY motor on the Bike Market is welcome.
You are quite right. Nothing beats a hub for quiet. I'm about to get to try my very first one this week.... a Jeston Bolt Pro!
Can you suggest a decent hub motor for 148x12 Boost rear thru axle?
That's some awesome info...if only the bbs02 had the same torque assist as the photon...It would be the ultimate for me. Do you know of any hacks? Plus would it be to pair up a bbs02 with a asi bac800 or 855? I know that the bac800 is discontinued but would there be any advantages with the 855 over the 800 if I were to use a 56v battery? Thnx
Watch to the end of this one! ua-cam.com/video/gGEDWPgfEFk/v-deo.html working on it
@@HighVoltageKits torque sensing IPM rotor yes please... Is it on a bafang platform?
BBSHD has the benefit of age. Tried and true. The heatsink design won't last a ride here in WA state. Muck galore.
It has a special place. I am amazed how relevant it still is all these years later. Its a legend! I don't fancy cleaning the heatsink. Looks like its pretty high up so should avoid direct hits. But yeah it does get one its likely toast
Get one, test it, get ahead of everyone. thanks
Had it on order for a couple of weeks lol. I plan on running the snot out of it! I think its probably here early March? It said three to five weeks so maybe sooner?
I would argue. Getting the heat sink covered in mud isn't that big of a problem... mud is partly water / mud. water can't above 100c. Then it boils abs stays there until all the liquid water is boiled off... which? At that point? The mud isn't mud anymore. And it'll fall off because it's dry
Its an interesting theory. If the motor gets that hot then it would evaporate off the water pretty fast leaving the mud. The motor would be fried internally if it ever got that hot on the surface. It should throttle itself before it gets anywhere near that hot which is where more of the issue lies. The performance is potentially reduced when you need it in order to prevent overheating.
What happened to the 2000w 40a claims?
I had not heard those. Might be the one for later this year?
@@HighVoltageKits Early talks online from cyc and forums is where I got that. I remember a early ride video that was taken down that mentioned they had the motor running at 30a and it could do 40a in the settings. It was this motor though as I kept mentioning I didn't think the motor could take that much power for long without overheating
Right on I'll see what I can find! Cheers
not sure why he saying only 750w???? even says in the video upto1200w and some users have had 1900w with no problems
@@HighVoltageKits Hey just wanted to let you know its still posted in the photons webpage. Under the stats tab in smaller writing it states it can be unrestricted to 2000w. And when you look into their new controllers they list the controller in the photon as being capable of 40a battery 90 phase.
❤️
Cheers Jono
is it preferable to install on a fat bike or should i stick with the BBSHD?
I have one ordered but I will be using it on a gravel bike. I don't see why it won't go on a fatbike. Its more how much power you want and the kind of riding you will be doing really. If you want the option of a reliable 1500watts and ability to mod it to 4000watts and a motor that has been proven to be reliable over thousands of kms and 8 years of use go with the BBSHD. If you want more of a lower power torque based so more responsive PAS feel then the CYC could be a good option. Its less the frame choice and more how you want to ride.
Ey! love the hat
Thank you Sir!
I really want one, but I'm not sure I'm ready to spend $2500CAD on a kit.
Yeah. Its alot. I have one on the way to review. In a month I will also be hoping to another option. Which I'm not allowed to discuss yet but would also be torque sensing and cheaper.
Can anyone confirm that there is enough room to fit around ISCG tabs? The space looks pretty decent, but CYC drawings are pretty close to useless. Any other boost frame compatibility issues?
Its a good question. Not sure the answer here. You are welcome to post photos on our discord and we can have a look. If these are the tabs for holding things that are removed as part of the conversion they can be ground off of need be? I know a few people who have done this with the BBSHD on tight frames.
These available yet? What does the mounting look like?
Looks pretty straightforward. I could not see how it grips the bottom bracket though.
the motor shouldn't cost more then 500/600. the torque sensor isn't such a deal breaker to a DIY enthusiast to justify spending rmore then double the cost of a bbshd. you can easily find a bbshd for under 550$ and i will forever prefer the reliability it's known for over the torque sensor.
Research and tooling costs money. But it always does. Companies usually get that back over the long haul. I know that they are willing to see them in bulk much cheaper to dealers and make a profit still. It seems high to me. I guess if they sell loads then it won't matter to them. If it does not sell well then they will have room to lower the price.
Sad to say as it is a great motor, but at those atrocious prices right now, the bafang and other cheaper china DIY ebike kits will still continue to dominate the ebike conversion scene. I use an L-faster mid drive conversion kit which costs less then 300$ and ran it at 72volts the same with your BBSHD build. I can easily swap controllers and batteries when I want to or whenever damage occurs without the mercy of the manufacturer or having to buy proprietary parts. Prices for these 750w motors should rarely exceed 300-400USD or 500-600USD for a 1000w mid drive. But then again, its still a new product and they want to recuperate the manufacturing costs. We will see in the long run how well it performs or what modifications it can take (72v, hopefully) as well as its failure points after many years of use.
If CYC can make it this far without going belly up, then I think they will be around for a while. They have overcome significant early problems to get this far. I tend to agree that it's a bit pricey. I thought screw it, though, and I have one one the way, so I'll be a guinea pig! I think you are right on the development, so hopefully, it will come down in price. Thanks for the comment.
@@HighVoltageKits Looking forward to your video reviews of these new cyc products. 👌Their gen 3 lineup looks really great as well. Hopefully the noise isn't as obnoxious as the previous gens as well higher voltage capabilities of the entire gen 3 lineup (stealth, photon) as these motors really shine at 72volts as compared to running them stock. Great times to be an ebike enthusiast these days.
Photon 3.2 kg wieght is so tiny to compare with bafang bbs 750w which is 4.2 kg.
That's actually closer than I thought. The 02 is pretty dated now tho.
I dont see how that thing can survive that low on a mountain bike for any length of time at all unless you never take it bush.
I can see where you are coming from but in reality unless you are nailing huge rock gardens it's just not an issue. Loads of people use them on MTBs. Its higher up than a BBSHD or many X1 configurations. I will be doing gravel runs mainly and trails as well as commutes.
Were abouts are you in Canada
Kamloops mate
Where's that
West coast
Sneaky kids! 6:15
Yup! Good spot, he was meant to be in bed!
For anyone looking for mid drive conversions for mtb, latest cyc kits and lift mtb seem to the only good options. Everything else uses crappy square taper spindles that bend like a ballerina
I don't know of anyone who has bent one. What are you doing to achieve this? I been doing this a while and you are the first person to put it in this way.
@@HighVoltageKits back in 2005 (i was 13) I did dirt jumping with my friends and we all bent our truvativ square taper mtb cranks. Now I'm 50kg heavier riding 10x harder so there's no hope for square taper. For casual xc it's alright but there a reason the standard disappeared from mtb world. ISIS spline is better but not great
Far too expensive. Considering I bought a Bfang BBS02 for $636
Was that CAD? That's pretty good in that case.
Just buy tongsheng, its 250 usd.
They don't last though.