Repertoire: The BEST and WORST Sibelius Seventh Symphony
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Sibelius ended his symphonic career with one of the most remarkable symphonic works of the 20th century--hugely influential, even if nothing composed later sounds anything like it. The Seventh does everything a symphony should do, but in a single movement lasting about 22 minutes on average. The trick to conducting it lies in executing effortless transitions between its various sections, and the huge range of expression that they contain. Here are seven conductors who manage it superbly, as well as a few who don't.
I just listened to the Blomstedt. It’s incredible. Utterly revelatory. Thank you for the revelation.
Thanks for listening!
After over sixty years of loving classical music, of sixty years of self discovery and delight, I come across your videos and my learning and love is renewed and revived with your guidance. . Thank you so much, Dave.
Wow, thank you!
These Sibelius videos are some of your best. Your formal analyses are very sharp, more critical (in a constructive sense) than most. Hope you'll also do the Nielsen symphonies at some point.
Totally agreed. I also hope David will finish his talks about Nielsen's symphonies.
What a great idea! My fav is no.3!
@@marnieesjolander1831 ugh
@@marnieesjolander1831 I never noticed the 3rd but I played my Blomstedt/SF recording this week and really "got" it.
Thanks for the excellent review! My favourite would be Mravinsky 1965 Live Rec. with Leningrad PO for its unmatched intensity and Tchaikovskian pathos.
Awesome review of the music and the tricky tempo... Makes listening a lot more enjoyable.
I also love the trombone solo part too. I guess that’s what makes it such a great work.
No, it's the piccolo part.
We’ll both parts are good!
My overall number 1 is Segerstam and Helsinki and my historic will be Ormandy Live with the Royal Concertgebouw 1969, the use of the trombone in this symphony is some of the best music ever created in history.
I completely agree with you, I don't know if the recording I have in mind is the one you refer to, however, I am surprised that Ormandy was not mentioned because his version is absolutely magnificent, I would say unbeatable, in that and other passages as well.
Even though I grew up on the Davis/BSO cycle I always find myself going back to Bournemouth/Berglund...1st class 👍
I just discovered your channel this evening and watched your Sibelius cycle review, and now this one. Goodness, you are born to do this - just superb talks. Consistently insightful, and also I love the humor. We should bottle you as an anti-depressant :)
As for Sibelius’s 7th: deeply sacred music to me. As magnificent as music gets. Its organicism is so extraordinary that it always sounds to me as if he (or rather a god) just sat down one day and wrote the whole thing out in real time as one long idea… And the elemental power of it all always clobbers me.
So thank you for this wonderful talk, and the recommendations. The Karajan was the first recording I ever heard, and since then the ones I’ve happened to come across haven’t reached its heights. But now … I have a bunch more to encounter. And I will be watching a great many more of your videos in the future. Cheers!
Thank you so much, and welcome!
The crescendo towards the end gets me every time! And the final passage, despite being so brief, is one of the most stirring in all of Classical music.
Couldn't agree more. It's overwhelmingly powerful, as is the entire symphony.
On Rattle "He learned the piece...subsequent to making the recording." Loving your dry wit Dave, keep it coming!
Great analysis and recommendations of this landmark symphony. The two C major symphonies by Sibelius are easily among my top ten favorite symphonies in Western music. I am grateful that there are a wealth of excellent performances of the Seventh and that you know them and steered us to them.
Eugene Ormandy, an inveterate, unique interpreter of Sibelius, once composed an essay on the 7th Symphony
Where notwithstanding his affinity for the other symphonies called it unquestionably the greatest of the seven.
And of course explained why
Athene springing from Zeus’s head indeed……! I always think of continents, platelets moving. Geological timescales, all in c 22 minutes. Love your appreciation of this wonderful work, have learnt so much from you Dave. Thank you!
I usually go back to Bournemouth/Berglund because of Berglund's profound understanding of the work's proportions and tempo relationships, and the orchestral playing is on par with, if not better than the big name bands. Everything feels right. Someone who really gets this piece wrong is Vänskä - the Minnesota recording is so wrong headed - all about Vänskä and not much about Sibelius. You must do Tapiola - another incredible work.
Thank you for enhancing my appreciation of my favorite composer, and his magnificent 7th symphony!
I love the Iceland Symphony / Sakari Version of Sibelius 7. I just receieved my copy (which is a bit hard to find at a good price -- I got a single disk including Sibelius 6 (also wonderful) and the Tempest Suite 2 (which I was not familiar with and I like) from a vendor in the UK. It is wonderful, and up there with my two other favorite versions -- Karajan (along with Sibelius 5) and San Francisco/ Blomstedt. I am listening to it now. What is INCREDIBLE about this recording is how good the audio quality is! You literally can pick out every instrument being played -- the woodwinds, individual strings, percussion- in fact, this has to be one of the best recordings of any type I have heard.
Enjoyed your discussion as usual! My intro to Sibelius 7th was that very Ormandy recording coupled with all things, Respighi’s Feste Romane!! Talk about inappropriate discmates! I have since admired Beecham, Davis (Boston and LSO), Vanska, and Segerstam.
Thank you so much for doing "best" talks about all of the Sibelius symphonies. Looking forward to talks about more Shostakovich symphonies, and the remainder of the Beethoven countdown. Will there be talks about the early Dvorak symphonies as well?
No, not Dvorak, because the early symphonies are still outside of the repertoire beyond the complete sets. But there will be at least one more (No. 3).
Was going to ask if Dave had done his suggested followup on one-movement symphonies but have now found it - Sequels: After Sibelius' Seventh Symphony.
What Sakari gets is that the transition can be done by putting the transitional material at the forefront with diminuendo of the hard-charging theme (a near fade-out) before new material enters. He has shown how one can go from one movement to another without a stop or an awkward shift.
Great stuff! I listened in awe to your insight and explination of Sibelius' music - which I have loved by intuition for over 50 years! But... never really understood precisely why :-) Not that I really understand now, but you gave me some really valuable notions, especially about developement and tempo. Thank you so much!
I have been on a Sibelius binge of late, largely after reading Dave's great book on Sibelius, written as part of the "Unlocking the Masters" series. The book prodded me to listen to pieces I hadn't heard before and really made me appreciate how interesting a composer Sibelius was - Dave is a great guide to understanding music when you are not a musician yourself.
I'm amazed at Sibelius' long life and the changes he must have seen. He was born in the last year of the American Civil War, and died in the year of the launch of Sputnik. Other romantic composers such as Elgar, Saint Saens, and Bruch lived well into the 20th Century but nothing like Sibelius. When I was doing research for a school paper I ran across his one-page obituary in TIME Magazine.
Interesting you should mention Berglund/BSO then immediately after Maazel/VPO. These two recordings were the ones that I grew up with and have remained firm favourites. Push comes to shove for me the Berglund remains my all time favourite as does his early Tapiola recording.
I've really enjoyed and taken to heart these very accessible elucidations and recommendations regarding Sibelius's work. They've had me re-examine my earlier resistances to listening (other than the first two symphonies) further as his work seemed often too episodic and difficult to follow in a classic sonata sense. These videos on Sibelius (and so many others) have been ear openers, and, of course, the fun part is buying what I can in terms of the suggested listening. Thank you.
That first passage you played has elemental power. A perfect example of Sibelius' genius.
The “Amen” cadence concluding the 7th is like a reverse amen since it rises. I have always felt something spiritual in it, like the soul leaving the body. My two favorites are Karajan/BPO on DG and Berglund/Bournemouth. I like Segerstam, too. Also, you gotta love the Ondine cover art - I unfortunately have the boxed set featuring a typical photo of Jean.
I KNEW there was a reason that Ormandy's recording of the 7th was only only one that ever made sense to me at the end............thanks for clarifying things, Dave! It may not have been what Sibelius had in mind, but it wouldn't be the first time a conductor's suggestion resulted in a better ending (as in Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra).
Segerstam’s recording with the BBC Scottish Symphony orchestra was the spark to my love of Sibelius’s music and in particular the 7th symphony. Thank you for a fascinating lecture that will only enhance my respect for the towering genius of Sibelius.
I heard Segerstam live in Glasgow with the BBC Scottish doing 5-7 in one concert and was very impressed. I don't want to buy more Sibelius but would likely be top of my list to investigate as it was probably the best live Sibelius concert I've ever heard.
Great video - awesome explanation of transformation and control of speed. Not so easy to communicate, and every time I listen to this work I’m blown way by how Sibelius manages these items.
PS I own your Sibelius book and treasure it!
Thank you!
@@ammcello Me too!
The 7th symphony and Kullervo are two of my favourite works. Why Sibelius put the latter aside and withdrew the score is beyond my comprehension. My introduction to the 7th was Berglund’s 1970’s recording with the Bournemouth S.O. and I feel it’s still as fine as any I’ve ever heard.
Great composer - who needs great interpreters; pity about Mr Rattle.
Your pronunciation of "mish mash" reminds me of an acerbic letter from Groucho Marx to Governor William R. Scranton - "if you contemplate campaigning in any more Jewish neighbourhoods, I suggest you learn how to pronounce 'mish-mash'. It is not pronounced 'mash', as you said on 'Meet the Press,' but rather as though it were spelled MOSH."
That's Governor Scranton told, by Marx the merciless.
Back to nos moutons - Sibelius has more concentrated power in his music than I readily know what to do with - it moves and thrills you at the same time - it makes you want to go and do something noble....
Please, never shut up. This was one of your best.
Dave, I think this review and description of the Sibelius 7th is one of your best. Thank you! As you point out, the transitional flow really matters in this masterpiece. And how it moves out at the end into infinite, cosmic horizons! How could Sibelius ever have topped this classic? Your suggestions are all among my favorite recordings. May I also share with your listeners the deep renditions from George Tintner (Nova Scotia Symphony) and the great Munch Boston Symphony Orchestra performance, unfortunately never recorded, but available in an unforgettable and powerful "live" concert on youtube. Although these performances may be a minute or so longer than most of your recommendations, they are deeply soulful and far reaching in their expression.Incidentally, I know how much you love Igor Markevitch's recordings, and he also did an early, not great sounding, but impressive recording of
this wondrous work. Take care, Dave!
Frankly, I'd prefer not to discuss grotty airchecks and pirates, whether they are on UA-cam or not. While I appreciate your passion for this magnificent music, the fact is that we have more than enough excellent versions and there is no need to dig around for every last scrap of material, even by artists whose work we treasure. I'm not trying to dampen your personal enthusiasm--that's a wonderful thing--but I want it to be clear to newcomers or more casual listeners that any one of the recordings mentioned will serve excellently (as you kindly acknowledged). If you get "hooked" on the work, of course, then the sky's the limit.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sorry, Dave, but I really love this work and thinking of your love for Markevitch as a conductor, I just wanted to share his recording with you (on Dante Lys), and the Tintner, like the Sakari, is on Naxos. As Munch didn't commercially record much Sibelius, I thought readers who love Munch as an ecstatic conductor, might enjoy hearing his rendition of the 7th on youtube. Your suggestions are all wonderful, and I deeply appreciate them, and I have been "hooked" on this symphony for many years.
By the way, Dave, would you ever consider doing an Alan Hovhaness segment? Another composer who really loved nature and various cultures and described these interests in many of his works. Thanks again for the valuable work you are doing.
@@hallingerman2168 Nothing to apologize for. I just want to avoid, well, you know what I want to avoid! Thanks for understanding.
I'm in a Sibelius phase and so far heard about 10 versions of Sibelius 7 and many of the conductors mentioned in your video. Some are great but the sonics, and recording is poor, the one I keep going back to both for artistry and sound is the Segerstam rendition. I place it just above Sakari,Vanska, Ormandy, and Barbirolli.
Maazel's remake with the Pittsburgh Symphony gets my vote on this one. The running time alone probably will make you discard it, but I deem it a supremely conceived and realised performance that conveys precisely the idea that this music is generating itself in a totally organic, unstoppable way.
I never make decision based on timings alone. I much prefer Maazel's earlier recording, however beautifully played the Pittsburgh version is.
Time to load it on my phone and walk it. Might even head over to the sibelius park in toronto.
Frankly, I hope you NEVER “shut up.” You are fascinating.
Greatly agree with what you state at the end! Still he DID write Tapiola and the Tempest music AFTER that. The story of the 8th Symphony is a bit more complex. He had worked on it for decades and even had sent the first 3 parts already to the copyist. However, he than withdrew it and somewhere in the 1940's burnt a whole pile of manuscripts in his fireplace including the 8th. After that a great burden was lifted from his shoulders. Indeed improving on the 7th would have been an almost inhuman effort...
This symphony is the introduction to Sibelius I've been needing. (I don't like Finlandia, nothing else I happened to hear intrigued me, and I lazily assumed the composer had nothing for me.) I've been nearly obsessed since this post. Following along with the score just now, I found it interesting to see the different ways Sibelius keeps throwing the listener off the beat. The music is bursting with energy and rhythm, but Sibelius seems to want to keep the meter ambiguous (though unchanged.) This doesn't apply to the dance-like section, of course. BTW, I found Bernstein with the NY Phil very exciting and absolutely compelling.
Sibelius' style changed hugely during his life as he moved from a fairly nationalistic/romantic style to a very original semi-classical form. Hopefully you've discovered more of his works since then and I'm sure you'll enjoy many of his later works including Symphonies 3-7.
One of my favorite pieces. No matter how often I hear it, I’m in complete awe. How a human being can create something that sounds 100% organic from beginning to end and at the same time achieves such a perfection of form is beyond my comprehension. I always hear this piece as some kind of „hero‘s journey“ with the trombone theme being the hero. In live performances I always look at the double bass section when they have those incredible 32nd note scales towards the end. I will certainly check out a few of your recommendations, in particular the one from Naxos. The sample you played sounded fantastic.
I thought the excerpts you played were glorious. Which performance was it? Was it the Sakari? Thank you once again for a marvellous video
What a coincidence I listened to Blomstedt's box version of this work and was thinking of discovering other recordings of the work too
Segerstam's first recording on Chandos should get an honorable mention.
No need.
I was surprised to find that this piece does work with chamber orchestra, having been surprised by how much I liked the live performance of the River Oaks Chamber Orchestra of Houston (who? I hear you say), on SoundCloud and UA-cam, but don’t think it was ever on cd or other streaming services.
I need to listen to Ormandy's again, since I don't remember the end as you describe it! Speaking of tempi and that typical running time, there's an insane Stokowski broadcast from a Helsinki performance with is under 18 minutes in duration. His AAYO studio recording from 1940 is a "normal" 21:36. I don't think it's cut, but it's been a while since I listened. However the speed demon award goes to a Paul van Kempen 1950 Telefunken studio recording with the Hilversum Radio Orchestra. It's 16:20!! And yes, it sounds too fast, but is worth a listen for the curious if you can find it. Thanks for your description of the work...I always enjoy your take on what makes these works "tick". Now I'm reacquainting myself with Bernstein/NyPO. Darned good cycle. Blomstedt's has not only worn well, but seems to improve with age. Such clarity of lines and gorgeous playing by the SFSO!
Definitely don't shut up.
Another insightful Sibelius discussion-great work, David!
His mysterious 8th symphony, from current studies of his correspondence, may have actually been written twice, with one version being a choral work. Apparently a first movement, of 23 pages in length, was sent to his copyist Paul Voigt in 1933 (the bill was found) and more manuscript pages were sent later, with a note from Sibelius to Voigt stating the complete work would be eight times as long as the first movement. But, because of the high praise given his 7th, Sibelius felt he had to surpass it with his 8th and ultimately he felt that whatever work he had done to craft a fitting successor failed and all the manuscript pages were burnt. From implications in his letters, he may have completed one version, destroyed it to start fresh, then finally didn't find his newer version to be better-whether it was completed or not, and those pages were also consigned to the flames.
Supposedly some material from one of those versions was used in the organ work Surusoitto, and composer Ragnar Söderlind incorporated an orchestrated version of that into his own 8th symphony written in memory of Sibelius. Both the Sibelius organ work and the Söderlind symphony are on UA-cam for curious listeners. There were also some fragments discovered and recorded that were allegedly sketches for one version of the 8th, and those have also been recorded, but they are just a few minutes worth of music that don't indicate much of where the composer was going with those bits.
Surusoitto is such rich music, latent with possibility, that it is easy to believe it sprung from something larger, with greater intent.
It would have been hard to follow the 7th, but I would love to have a chance to at least hear what he was trying with the 8th. Just as I find the original version of the 5th very interesting, although I would never want it to replace the superbly crafted final version.
32:24 It is not one of those, I think, recommendable cycles. Suckery.... Sakari... Oooh you made me laugh out loud - inadvertently it seems, but stilll. :))))) I get his 7th is world class!
P. S.: 34:34 There was still the "Tapiola" in the works. Now that put a full stop in the man's oeuvre!
My choices for this work - and I don't need supersonic sound:
Koussevitzky/BBC.
Karajan/Philharmonia.
Munch/Boston.
The last might be from a live performance, possibly never released on record, but can be heard on UA-cam.
I like the Karajan performance and I rarely like any of his symphonic performances except for his Bruckner.
@Eddi Haskell Actually, I like his recording from the same period, of Ravel's Rapsodie Espagnole.
And a recording of Handel's Op. 6 Concerti Grossi Iike very much. I listen to No. 5 of that set all the time.
@@alger3041 Thank you so much for the recommendations! I love Wagner's Parsifal (Dave Hurwitz can't stay awake through it LOL) , and I have to admit that the Karajan recording with Berlin is one of the best out there, and is probably my favorite I just pulled Karajan's Sibelius 5/7 with Berlin down from my CD Cabinet, I have not listened to it in a while.
@Eddi Haskell Karajan's Sibelius 5, 6 and 7 are all very good in my opinion. I like his 4 a lot less - too soft-toned for me. I recommend Ormandy for that one.
Maybe I missed it, but where is the WORST?
You missed it.
All the better I got the Sakari disc because of your recommendation of his sixth.
Well here’s hoping you don’t shut up any time soon
Thankyou
I suspect & put the hypothesis that over the decades performance of this music has slowed down. I remember concerts of my earliest hearings (1960s) of it coming in at under 20 minutes. Concert programmes then, which always gave timings, in my experience had figures of 19 and something. Similarly on the radio. My first vinyl copy, the details of which i have forgotten except for a line from the cover notes: " a symphony that hardly lasts 20 minutes..."
It depends on who the conductor is. Since the surviving recordings represent about a billionth of a percent of the actual number of performances, and since printed timings are notoriously inaccurate, I'm not sure I would agree, especially when we're only dealing with differences of two or three minutes between performances. All of the performances of this symphony that I have seen live (and I've seen about half a dozen) have been notably quick.
What a nice way to begin the day: a chat about one of my favorite symphonies. That Ormandy recording surprised me when I first heard it, but it seems Koussevitsky made similar changes at the end. My old Pearl cd bronzed out years ago and I can't check.
It's on Spotify. You won't hear the sound quality difference on the 80 year old recording.
Many thanks for a revealing tour of an amazing work. For me the considerable impact of Sibelius 7 hinges on its ambivalence; it is at once both terrifying and consoling--often within the compass of a few bars. The recording that first spoke to me was the Ormandy/Sony, though I never noticed the re-scoring until you pointed it out! Bernstein/Sony is wonderful, as are Davis, Berglund, and Karajan. And let's not forget Beecham--one of the greatest Sibelians of all, whose EMI recordings of this composer never got released in a "Scandinavian" box when last EMI reissued and repackaged his recordings for that label. My personal favorite remains--and here you and I will disagree--Bernstein's second, Vienna recording. That one may not have the organic unity of some others, but what emotional impact! He manages to convey the valedictory quality of the music better than any version I have heard. Maybe Bernstein/Vienna is Sibelius' last symphony viewed from the perspective of Mahler's. But it works; at least for me. After two ringing endorsements from you, however, I shall have to get the Sakari. The samples of both 6 & 7 that you have played for you videos have sold me on that recording.
Beecham's stereo 7th is very disappointing, given what a fine Sibelian he normally was.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Beecham's 1942 recording with the New York Philharmonic is astonishing--as intense, gripping, glorious, and savage a performance as I've ever heard. Although it clocks in at a swift 19 minutes and a few seconds, it is beautifully shaped and never sounds rushed.
Thanks for another fascinating talk--one that really illuminates the structure of this fascinating work.
~ Regards, John Drexel
@@DavesClassicalGuide Your comment reflects the critical consensus on Beecham's stereo Sibelius 7. I haven't heard it in years, so I'm going to give it a listen and see whether in fact I agree with you. I have always had a soft spot for Beecham, in part because he was my father's favorite conductor. For him, Beecham could do no wrong. So I'll see what a fresh hearing of his Siblius 7 turns up.
@@DavesClassicalGuide It's me again. Just listened to the Beecham recording afresh. I still like it, but it's, shall we say, distinctive. Bright-toned, brisk, lovingly shaped, elegant (in conception more than execution), almost "Mozartian." However it lacks tension and gravitas, so I can see why critics don't like it. My view of the work has changed since I last heard the Beecham. I like it slower and grimmer now.
@@davidaiken1061 I don't think it's terrible. Just relatively tensionless, as you say.
So many thoughts on this unique symphony. I thought the trombone theme was a derivative from the initial motifs or at least connected to them, so that the exposition ends right before violas and cellos divisi. Also quite interesting how Sibelius treats the form, instead of writing themes in different tonalities, he uses the same key but constantly varies tempo. There is a similar approach in a lot of late works, most remarkably in Tapiola and Surusoitto, the main key is the same but harmonic variety is achived through unexpected frequent modulations and use of dissonant chords.
I personally prefer recordings that go through Allegro Moderato part as fast as possible. It's just the most boring part of the symphony (at least for me), even timpani solo doesn't help it. But it somehow depicts joy of life and adds emotional variety to the Seventh, making it a little bit lighter than it could be.
I also quite interested to know what you think about Mravinsky's recordings? It turns out quite a few people consider them to be among the best ones.
They are very good, but compromised by the indifferenct, live sonics.
@@DavesClassicalGuide That is interesting. I always thought that Mravinsky went too far in his interpretations of it. Similar to Ormandy.
Rattle's timings are actually pretty consistent:
22.30 Birmingham
21.48 Berlin
Yes, but they sound leaden. The Berlin one is a bit better (not because it's faster).
I heard both of Rattle‘s Sibelius cycles in Berlin. In both cases he played 5th, 6th and 7th on the same evening and the 7th without interruption right after the 6th as kind of a 5th movement.
I'll never understand what people like about Rattle. In anything.
I always thought he looked out of place in Berlin. English conductor with a mediocre career at the helm of The world’s greatest orchestra and ending up with a mediocre result.
Rattle’s a media creation. He was young and hip, with cool hair (In fact, his hair has always looked ridiculous, especially now in advanced years). He fit in with the British rock establishment. This isn’t to say Rattle is not a good conductor - he does some things very well - but he is nothing like the genius he’s been built up to be. His Sibelius was fawned over by the British press and is downright dull.
Thanks so much for your insights Dave. Do you have a view about the Mravinsky performance (live 1965 I believe)?
Read the comments please.
Try though I may, I never could "get" Karajan's DG Sibelius Seventh. Yes, he was magnificent in the Fourth, Fifth and even Sixth on DG, but the Seventh left me flat. Call me crazy, but the sound world of Ormandy and Barbirolli in this work seems so rugged, so spot on and Karajan's seems so polished as to lack the passion and trust necessary for this magnificent work. Regardless, I have to say this is one of your better introductory talks on a work that I don't believe gets enough credit for just how influential it truly is. Good job!
Yip, it's horses for courses. I find some 7ths admirable but not causing me to sit up. Blomsted's & the San Fran was a curate's egg: the great storm in the middle was too lethargic(for me) not savage enough, the adagio was lush and lovely.