Watch Out for This… (when working FT8)
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2023
- I’m sure many of you who are very FT8, FT4, etc. savvy already know this, but, just in case you don’t, I want to draw attention to something that can cause you to have trouble completing a contact, or even getting an answer to your CQ. You might have been getting responses to your CQ and then suddenly the responses cease. This video will show what to look for in case you find yourself wondering why you cannot seem to complete a contact, or why no one is responding to your CQ.
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73, de N4HNH - Наука та технологія
I find it best to move my TX frequency independently, always looking for a clear spot. Remember..where YOU transmit is the main factor on being heard on a busy band. Great tip!
As a new FT-8 user, this information is just what I needed. Thank you!
I’m glad you liked it.
Great video, I watched the other FT8 video. I am new to digital so I am learning and your videos are making the frustrations a little less. Thanks.
I’m glad to know my videos help. Long-hauler, or yearly, S7 or S9 members of my Patreon.com/N4HNH support team can receive my menu optimizations PDF and my detailed FT8 setup guide for either the FTdx10 or the FT-710. They are not for sale. They are something I gift to people who support my work on a long-term basis. 73, de N4HNH
Doug, i've watched many of your videos as well and learned so much. I'm thinking of joining your patreon group for more of your great learning videos of the FT-710. Besides the PDF files you mentioned above, do you show or have documents to learn how to do the settings on the FT-710 and WSJT-X software for the FT8? 73, de KD0BRE @@n4hnhradio
Extremely helpful info! I'm not a frequent user of FT8, but this will most certainly help when I do. Thanks Doug!
You’re very welcome, Allen!
New to FT-8; great video. Obvious analogy to CW/SSB is move after you answer a CQ and complete QSO, but there is so much to learn about the FT-8 user interface!
Getting the audio levels set correctly, so you don’t transmit harmonic radiation is also very important.
Thanks for highlighting a common source of QRM on FT8. Although usually done out of ignorance, not clearing your transmit frequency is against common ham etiquette. Education such as this video is what is needed but be aware that if you do not control the transmit frequency you are operating on, you will be considered a discourteous operator. Another clue this is happening requires you to stop automatic sequencing so you can see the other time cycle. Switching to the opposite cycle (odd/even) will also allow you to see that someone is “doubling” with you. I prefer to have both odd and even on my transmit frequency clear so that if other hams have a full band spectrum at their QTH they can call me on my transmit tone frequency. Mind your transmit frequency, sharing the space by making use of odd/even and trying to make your transmit frequency close to a 50 hz segment, will help this mode to be more useable and exhibit your professionalism as a knowledgeable operator. I think we are all guilty of these mistakes so thank you for providing this video to help educate. George YE1GXQ/AG5XQ
Thanks Doug. New to digital so that was helpful.
I’m glad you found it helpful, Rich! Subtle things like that can make a difference in getting contacts or not. Also, keeping your signal clean by preventing ALC action, as I show in the FT8 PDFs, available to Executive and VIP Patreon members.
73, Doug
Thanks for the information.
You bet!
Well done on this! FT8 being so automated the idea of listening before you transmit and even checking the spectrum to see if the “freq is in use” is rare. Being QRP I have had great DX calls stolen ( sometimes inadvertently…. Sometimes 😡?). 73 de VK2AOE.
I can imagine it being tough for QRP operation. 73, de N4HNH
I learned this a while back; but since I don't FT8 very regularly this is a great reminder - so I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you, I had no idea because I don’t do much FT8 but this will help when I do.
FT8 isn’t my cup of tea. I prefer CW and SSB, in that order.
I have always watched for this and find myself having to move many times a session.
Excellent info
I’m glad you found it helpful, Brian. It harmed to me twice last night.
The easiest way is to go and make a standard SSB QSO with the good old Microphone, it works I guarantee it.
73´s Jochen DH1KJ
I prefer a good ole CW key.
Very useful!
Glad it was helpful!
Another excellent video. I often have someone show up under my CQ’s. I think it could be changing band conditions, and maybe the other ham just can’t copy me. When I CQ for a time with no response, I will also change transmit frequency. I don’t get upset, I just QSY.
Another thing you can do is change your transmit sequence from odd to even or even to odd. This helps also.
Usually if the band scope is just really crowded like seen in your video, I will QSY from FT8 to FT4. Obviously the band is in good shape and lots of other hams are on the air. Get ready for some fast qso’s.
Also if the band is crowded, I have moved the radio VFO up or down 1 and start CQing above or below the band plan and will immediately start getting qso’s. This is basically no different than a DX station running Fox and Hound.
I try my best not to answer a good dx station on his transmit frequency. I think it is best to be up or below his frequency. But if I have no luck, I will listen to the dx station for a time and see if he is only answering those on his frequency. If that is the case, I will call on his transmit frequency. If he answers someone else, I shut down til they complete their qso. Then start calling again.
When calling CQ I often just move around. It really helps if the qso’s slow down.
Another thing I do and it probably doesn’t matter, I try to set my transmit bracket on an even transmit frequency ( say 2000 or 2050 or 2100). If we all set our transmit frequencies in those even blocks, we could squeeze more stations in the plan without any overlap.
Also during slow times, I will place the receive brackets directly over a very weak transmission on the scope. I read somewhere, but cannot confirm, that if you place the receive brackets over a weak station, it will help the computer decode that particular station. I am not a computer OIT specialist so can not confirm this.
Also, I think about the DX I am trying to work. Often the DX is in a poor country with horrible AC power lines or in a tropical region with lots of thunderstorms and static. The DX might not be able to hear you at the moment. Just give it a rest and come back againl later and that often helps complete the qso.
Thanks
de AF4OD
Great advice all the way around, Bill. 73, Doug
Hi Doug,
Has happened to me also. I tend to TX at the upper end. Stay safe. 73 WJ3U
Good idea, Don.
Another great video, this happens to me all the time..I just move, no sense getting upset.
Absolutely, Jerry! I don’t think there is an alternative except to move. I guess one could fire up an amplifier and try a kilowatt.
Thank you
You're welcome!
Good luck happens to me all the time, I usually run 30 watts. Listen , Listen, and Listen…
This video touches upon one of my biggest peeves when operating digital modes like FT8. I call it “getting stomped.” In the beginning I suspected this was happening because of inconsiderate users, but having reflected on it for a bit, I think there are a number of reasons why it happens, mostly not malicious reasons.
One of the biggest reasons why this happens is probably due to new operators who don’t understand how it works. I was one of these. I didn’t RTMF and started operating on the assumption that since this was a software-based mode, there would be safeguards against doing something that could be detrimental to other operators. Soon after however, one cannot help but notice the “channels” and think of the saying “stay in your own lane.” I soon began to operate with that principle in mind.
Another reason this might continue to happen, even if all operators are educated about best practices is that some stations simply DON’T SEE YOU. What I see on my screen in California is not the same as what Hiro sees on his screen in Japan.
I operate QRP, so I can understand why someone running 100+ Watts 3,000 miles away might not see my trace on their screen. They might see what appears as a faint noise noise in the lane. That’s my transmission! On the other hand, when they get into the same lane, on my screen I see a glowing strip of light stomping me out. This is unavoidable. The little guys just needs to move around more often, and I do. I think it’s part of the fun now, and it really means you have to work for your QSOs., especially when the band gets busy.
By the same token, a weak station can benefit from operating on opposite (odd/even) part of the same lane as a very powerful station and sit their comfortably as long as the powerful station continues to operate there, because most other stations see the signal in that lane and don’t pick that lane to operate in. So it’s a double-edged sword.
I think it’s a good thing that with digital modes like FT8 you have to do more than set and forget. It leaves something to the skill and strategy of the operator.
I enjoyed the video. I’ve been thinking of putting one together covering FT8 strategies. Believe it or not, there’s more to it than “set and forget” or “click and go.” For example, there are ways to work multiple stations concurrently without losing any of them. Also several ways of working more efficiently so that you make the best use of your time. It’s a fascinating topic that offers a lot to of learning for most of us, even when we think we’ve got it down pat.
I prefer CW and SSB, in that order. I only operate FT8 when I have a reason to - usually related to creating a video or researching for my Patreon team members. This video was released to the Patreon members months ago. Some of the videos released to Patreon eventually go public. Some never go public.
Good, illustrative video. For a seemingly "simple" mode, there is a good bit of nuance to being an effective and courteous FT8 operator. 73 de AE6Z
Well said C.W. Better than I could say it. Nuance is the word.
73, Doug
Hello Doug, I am new to the amateur radio hobby. I have watched numerous UA-cam creators to see what they say about different aspects of this art. Obviously, since I have decided to join your Proteon page I believe you provide the most comprehensive information that covers what I am looking for now. Much of what you say in some of these videos is beyond my pay grade, however, I'm gaining knowledge with each video I watch. I'm not at the FT8 etc. level yet, I'm still trying to get a handle on the basics. I have so many questions that I'm searching for answers in your videos. Thanks for all the information you provide. I'm looking forward to gaining tidbits each time I watch. I'm working on getting my Extra now but I have a ways to go. Thanks again,
73 David
Hi David! As a VIP member, you have direct access to me. If you have a question just let me know. You can message me privately via Patreon. We can schedule a phone call or Zoom session.
If you haven’t already read it, I suggested reading the Glossary of Amateur Radio Terminology that I wrote. Go to www.PATREON.com/N4HNH. Click Collections and Technical. I also suggest the Training videos at www.N4HNHradio.com.
Feel free to reach out to me for a private consultation.
73, Doug
Thanks!
You’re very welcome, Keith!
73, Doug
THANKS! That explains the trouble I've been having!
73's K5MWA
Glad to help!
Happens to me at least 3-4 times when I operate ft4/ft8. I usually only run 20 watts so it doesn’t take much to obliterate my signal
I've done the exact same thing when operating ft8. If everyone would do that and let the software do the heavy lifting there'd be fewer instances of being stepped on. It's almost comical why so many people end up in bunches instead of spreading out to clear portions of the bandwidth.
you can also right click and set your transmit ... lil info ..
I lock my tx freq
How does operating with split either using rig control or fake it settings impact your tx frequency. If you set your tx hold and fix your tx at 450 hz then send with split with rig control where is you tx actually showing up? Many of the videos recommend using split but most comments seem to ignore whether split operation is being used or not.
The notion that just because you clicked Hold Frequency you some how reserved the frequency is wrong. I constantly have to move around. Also, you may have a clear opening on your end, but there may be somebody strong on the other end. Sometimes, when I get stuck in QSO, I change the transmit frequency. You never know if your are getting covered up on the other end.
It’s the same with CW, SSB, etc. Skip zones can sometimes be one-way. But, other than the one-way skip zone, if someone is calling CQ, or just having a conversation, that is their frequency until they sign off. It’s just proper ham radio etiquette.
With digital modes it doesn’t seem to be as obvious to some operators that a frequency is in use. Maybe they are new and their lack of experience with the mode causes the situation covered in this video. And yes, the best solution is to just move. Some will try the odd/even option, but either way you could potentially have a problem. The person who took over your frequency is calling CQ. If someone answers them, both time cycles could be occupied, because the station answering them might not have their TX frequency locked in at a different portion of the spectrum. It’s just best to move.
Doug and I have talked about this before, and operators are constantly moving TX around. The best thing to do IMHO is to not let this be a source of aggravation. This gave me an idea though.. I'll see if I can put in an enhancement request to wsjt to see if it is possible to allow the program to decide the clearest frequency and automatically move the station. EDIT - I have just put the question in the groups io forum, and see what is said. EDIT 2 - Already have an answer back from wsjt group. They can not automate this function.
I like your idea, David. That would be great. Similar to setting a router to use the most clear frequency available.
@@n4hnhradio I floated the idea to the engineers, but was shot down immediately.
That’s shortsighted on their part. It’s a great idea.
@@n4hnhradio I talked with another ham who was able to automate this using python by simply reading all of the used frequencies, in each cycle, and copying them in an array. From the array it is easy to mathematically see what frequencies aren't in use, and move TX to one of those frequencies. This guy wasn't a developer. He was a guy who was just interested to see if he could do it in python, and was able to do it. This isn't rocket science to do, and if they wanted to do it they could. Right now they don't think it is worthy of their time IMHO.
I do not disagree with you. However a very strong signal at your end does not mean they are a strong signal at the other end. Propagation effects are the reason for this discrepancy. The second thought is that FT-8 is cut in to the even / odd 15 second time slice. If you check the Tx even/1st box you are now TX in the time slice the invader is not and you are now sharing the frequency.
Don't forget about Odd vs. Even
I don’t. But my safe bet is to just move.
Hi Doug,
I've always had the Hold Freq selected and I'm usually above 2 kHz, but it has many times when making a contact that they start TX on my frequency making me move to another clear spot. Stay sage. 73 WJ3U
I was on last night and it happened to me twice. I was still, somehow, able to complete a contact with a station in Croatia. I filmed it. But all I can do is move. 73, Doug
Doug, if you hold the SHIFT you can move ONLY your transmit and not move the green receive. I do not move the receive, I just lock in my transmit and move it with the SHIFT.
That’s correct, but I just move both. The RX is going to move around anyway, according to the frequency where the station who calls me is transmitting. In fact, I like to see that. It lets me know that they have selected to hold their TX frequency.
@@n4hnhradio Yep, I always look to see where the receive is also. As you know, you can also see their frequency in the right panel as it shows their signal strength and frequency. That shows me sometimes where I need to go if, like you say, some starts transmitting on top of you and your DX station can't hear you. I lost Mongolia a couple nights ago because of that. Darn, never did get that RR73 or RRR.🥶
Helpful. Wasn’t really that clued into this phenomenon, and kind of assumed that WSJT-x would select a frequency that’s not obviously occupied by strong signals for a subsequent CQ. I noticed today on my own that WSPR also defaults to 1500 and it almost certainly causes some people to step on others. I was using my Xiegu G90, and not my dx10 today, but I am still scratching my head why some WSPR transmission cycles don’t seem to get picked up while others have 30-40 reports-in this case it’s not an ALC/overdrive issue. Overall, it seems challenging to get much clarity from WSPR about how two different antenna or ground systems are behaving, because the reports feel a bit hit-or-miss. At first I thought the realization to get off of 1500hz was the a-ha moment, but I’m not so sure. Anyhow, just some random remarks :)
Sometimes, when we are calling and calling, with no response, we might be getting trampled by someone with more power or a more powerful antenna. I am now conditioned to check the spectrum.
Figured out today that WSJT-x gets weird in WSPR mode if you use call signs with /% suffixes… which initially seemed like a good way to track transmissions off of 1 antenna system vs another (rather than altering the grid square as an identifier or by keeping track of transmission timestamps). As the software was sending differently even when transmitting back-to-back cycles, sometimes putting the callsign in brackets, sometimes not, and sometimes including the grid and sometimes not, the signals weren’t consistently decoded. Weird, but whatever. … but yep… for sure going to check the waterfall and be more deliberate about my freq selection going forward!
this happens all the time, every day, it just shows the disrespect modern society has. Ham radio was once a gentlemans hobby, but no more!
Yup. I remember the ladies and gentlemen days.
WSJT-X, Log4om, FTDX10, 40 Meters this combination slows down my laptop and can freeze my laptop up to almost unusable. I have to use keystrokes to save the last contact, exit WSJT-X, close Log4om, and restart my laptop all using keystrokes. After restart the laptop is fine again. Any ideas? Is it just me? The laptop is clean as I only use it as my shack computer. TNX and 73
I don’t have a logging program running while operating FT8, but my laptop has no trouble. My laptop is full of software too. I don’t actively log though, other than the log file WSJT-X creates. After I finish operating, I import the log file into QRZ.
@@n4hnhradio Thank You for the reply and hope to work you in the logbook some day!!
I'm pretty sure instead of changing freq you can just click 'Tx even/1st'. With the time slicing, someone has to be transmitting with the same freq as you + the same odd/even timing bucket to transmit over you. If you're seeing hot after you're done transmitting, that person is on the other time bucket and is not causing any interference there. When you're transmitting the chart is showing a blank line so you're not able to see who's transmitting at the same time as you that way. You'd have to stop transmit for a cycle and see if anyone was red on the same time slice you're set to transmit on.
That is definitely possible, but the person answering their CQ can overpower me. Furthermore, their signal can make it difficult for me to decode those who are answering my CQ. I’m not complaining, because we can all forget to select to hold TX frequency and then work someone, then decide to call CQ on the frequency of the person we just worked. I like to think that it is unintentional.
I believe that the other "time bucket" on the same frequency should be kept clear for chasers to respond to the CQ calls.
Anyone answering your cq would not be transmitting over you even if they dont click maintain tx frequency because of the odd/even transmitting. If they did move over to your frequency, the person answering their cq would be transmitting over you tho. I always maintain my frequency as good operating procedure
The problem isn’t the person answering my CQ. It’s the person answering my CQ and not using their own TX frequency. They move to my TX frequency. That isn’t normally a problem either, but, they finish working me and then they start calling CQ, right where they worked me.
Yes but if they do move over to your frequency they wouldn't be transmitting over you because of the even/odd transmitting. The problem would be when they start calling cq after moving over to your frequency then if the person replying to them moved over to them, then they would be transmitting over you. All in all you're still right by recommending to hold tx frequency that way we all know where we are transmitting and no one would transmit over anyone
Exactly! Covered in other comments. Their signal makes it difficult for me to decode those who are trying to work me.
@@n4hnhradio that's what chasers do, they don't have to have their own frequency. Often the spectrum is full, they don't need their own frequency to respond to you. But they shouldn't call CQ after on your frequency, that's wrong.
It's not your frequency, you've clearly stopped transmitting. The only way to "camp out" on 550 is to keep calling CQ. Running split is preferred but if you really really really want to work a station and they are calling CQ and not getting any answers then it makes sense to transmit on their freq because the odds are good they have chosen it because it is clear for them and they'll hear you. That is why stations occasionally uncheck the hold TX box. The problem is it's easy to forget and start calling CQ your freq. At this stage I usually move from odds to evens so that we aren't transmitting in the same time slot, but I stay camped on my TX freq calling CQ or other stations so that no-one takes it.
If I’m on 550 calling CQ and someone answers me on 550, then they start calling CQ on 550, they have taken over my portion of spectrum. Odd or even, either I’m getting stepped on or the stations who are trying to work me are getting stepped on, and I cannot decode them. The best solution is for me to move.
May I, respectfully, ask all digital operators to stay off of the IARU CW Beacon frequencies?
They’ve been around for years and years. It seems amazing that there’s so little discipline to prevent QRM’ing other stations, digital or not, when it comes to digital.
I don’t do digital so I rely on those beacons for real time propagation information. Hearing yet another digital station doesn’t help me a bit.
FT8 and FT4 are usually at .074 and .078 respectively. On the 17m band, they are at 18.100 and 18.104.
I guess I am used to having the big signals overpowering me. I want to have my waterfall go from 200 to 3200. Just gives me more room to spread out.
That’s a great idea, Charlie. It happened to me 3 times last night. I just keep an eye of the scope. Sometimes I retreat to the 2600 to 3000 area.
73, Doug
@@n4hnhradio Doug, I need to ask for your help again. I think I am having alc problems. People are not answering me, Maybe it is distortion. I guess I am not exactly sure how to tune it up. I am running 50 watts. SWR is okay, not great, but not excessive. I have installed my external tuner.I tried using the wsjt-x power slider. but I can not get the alc to drop off like you had it do when you helped me before. If there is a video that addresses ALC let me know and I will look it up. I have been down mostly for several weeks because of udp problems with the wsjt-x , log4om and jtalert. Most of that is behind me.Thanks, Charlie
Hi Charlie! I can get on Zoom with you in about 30 minutes. In the meantime, check pages 16 and 17 of the PDF I wrote for setting up FT8. It covers the audio settings.
73, Doug
Your assumption of it being an 'accident' is well intentioned. However, when you double-click a call sign, you would be transmitting on the alternate schedule. I personally believe those strong signals simply don't care. Plenty of jerks on the air.
There probably are some jerks, but I think mostly it’s due to a lack of experience. They just worked me by double-clicking, but they didn’t have their TX frequency set to hold in another clear portion of spectrum. So, they just worked me on my TX frequency, and now they start calling CQ on the same frequency where I’m calling CQ. It becomes difficult for me to continue because their signal interferes with the signal of those calling me.
@@n4hnhradio WSJTX automatically puts you on the alternate time slice when you do that. They wouldn't transmit at the *same time* by double-clicking.
That’s correct. But the person who just took over my portion of spectrum is calling CQ and someone answers. Both time cycles are in use. It’s best for me to move.
I thought that wsjt-x could discern 8 qsos on a frequency, plus remember that when you are looking at the waterfall, you are transmitting every 15 seocnds, so it there is a big station on your frequency, thn transmit on the opposing 15 second session.
Read the other comments to understand why odd/even might not solve the issue.
Don’t worry, you’ll never find me on ft8. What’s the point anyway?
Computers talking to computers. It’s the new way alright. Nobody wants to talk to anyone anymore.
FT8 isn’t my cup of tea either. I made this video for my Patreon team members who are interested in FT8. It was released to them months ago. Some Patreon member videos are eventually made public. Some are exclusively for Patreon members.
Not everyone as a good noise floor and/or antenna situation. It allows people to enjoy the hobby even though they are in a less than ideal circumstances and also don't have to deal with the sad hams or those who talk about their medical issues all the time. What's the point in being a sad ham ?
Variety is the spice of life. SO many more options today than back in the 1970s when I first got interested in this hobby. We just need to understand how the strengths, weaknesses , and nuances of the different modes in order to be more effective whilst being courteous.
73s