I really wish these comparison videos just had the player holding some long tones. Especially low Bb so you can hear the full resonance of the instrument
I own a Selmer Mark VI Silver Plated. I never played the Référence 54 but the VI is such a legend. Mine is a 1971 and it sound really great (for my opinion as well).
I completely agree with your assessments of the respective timbres of these two horns, though I found the difference subtle. The Mark VI is a little more centered and brighter; the Ref 54 I found a touch warmer. Regarding the relative stiffness of the action on the 54, I wonder how much of that is break-in: i.e. will it loosen up naturally over time?
Salut ! Je possède un REF 54 depuis peu et je pense que c’est un instrument merveilleux, il a juste besoin de temps pour que le SON se fasse …Et aussi chercher le Bec et l’Anche qui s’accordent avec lui .. Passer derrière le légendaire MK6 est très dur, mais le REF 54 aura sa place parmi les grands ; Bon Sax à tous !
Both horns are very nice, but I could instantly tell a significant difference in the Ref 54 sound. Of the two horns I like the sound of the Ref 54 better!
Thanks, I really appreciate your channel. I had to give up playing about a decade ago due to repetitive stress injuries and sold my Mark VI. Seeing as the prices have nearly double I figured I'd never play on such a high quality horn again if I ever went back to playing and sure enough I'm back in action! Just yesterday I got lucky and found a very low priced Crampon Buffet S-1 (after searching for a year) and to my to shock and awe I like it more than my Mark VI (from the fifties), particularly the lower register (which I was never to crazy about on the IV). It seems that the Mark IV is one of many great saxophones. I say that because in the video here I prefer the Reference 54's sound. Of course I'd be more than happy to have my old Mark VI still with me but I'm having a lot of fun exploring my new horn. It seems that each professional model offers something different.
He plays with more feelings on the Reference, the player definitely brings his own opinion to the table. Plus every mark 6 is different while new horns have certain stability to them not making them much different from each other. So in other words this comparison proves nothing.
I love these comparisons and end up flipping back and forth between the two instruments while being played. In this case I was really struck with how much they sounded the same. Yes, I suspect the player can hear a difference but I'm not sure the audience can. Thanks.
10 років тому+2
Man, they both sound pretty awesome. Just curious.. Is that a Rovner ligature your using? What do you think of the O'Leg? I personally play on a Otto Link with an O'Leg ligature and really love the sound on my alto. Maybe i'll up load something of me playing and you can tell me what you think? Maybe.lol
Well I'm old school and I was hoping for the Mark VI to sound much better.... but I closed my eyes and listened and at 2:40 you came in with the 2nd horn and it was Warmer to my ear and much more pleasant.... I guess this was the Reference 54 horn... and if so I'll take my hat off to the Selmer Company once again for their continued stellar work.... My MK VI was stolen in Ft Wayne Indiana in the 60's... and I replaced it with a King Super 20... Silversonic I picked up in Cleveland.... but I've always dreamed of getting another VI again.... but it is also about the feel of the horn under your fingers... how it fits your hands and how the mechanicals feel... this is so important. But I do remember I was more daring with things I'd try when I had the VI and something about having that MoJo.... in your hands is worth a lot... I love my King but still lust after the VI.... it's kind of like a love relationship... vexing.... but engaging. Nice Demo by the way. Got me thinking again.
Technically yes, what you get is a thing called multiphonics, can be very hard to master, there are books available for this if you type in multiphonics on our website.
Both horns have their own character. the Mark has a brighter sound to it and the 54 has a darker tone. I own a 54 and continue to be impressed with it.
You're right, the Mk VI does sound drier, yet maintains a much rounder sound! The Reference is on the dry side, but its darker, with a bite! Nice comparison video!
The Ref: 54 has a warmer sound than the Silver mk v1 but could you correct that with a mouthpiece and reed or not. I tried the Ref 54 with an Ottolink Tone master 7* and a Rico jazz select no.2 medium but the sound didn't convince me I should part with cash.
The selmer mark 6 has brighter sound. The 54 is more thick sound. They are both good. Bu the 54 is better because the mark 6 is so bright, and the 54 has more of the tenor quality.
You have to play them to "feel" the difference.....I like them both....in that price range,there are a lot of beautiful brands you have to try ,if you want something special.🎷🙂
Thanks Jim for the demo. I find it difficult to judge the comparison because you are doing a demo with a silver horn with a brass horn ( a bit like apples and oranges comparison). I have both a Mk 6 and a Ref 54 and yes there are slight differences. I played the Ref 54 for many years and loved it till I got a Mk 6 and the tone of the Mk 6 is so unique that I use it 90% of my gigging. I would love to see a demo with both horns being brass.
Da Epicenter I hear intonation problems with that reference 54 - sonically the 54 is a bigger sound--The reference 54 with a reference 36 neck is a great combination and probably one of the best horns you'll ever play
Hmm, I was expecting the Mark VI to blow the doors off the Ref 54, but I liked the Ref 54 sound more. That VI sounds bright and tinny to my ears, and it's got nothing to do with the silver plating. Played a friend's 5-digit silver Mark VI and thing sounded amazing.
That VI seems to be in line with the VI tenors that I prefer. There's a certain punch in the mid range those horns have that modern horns do not. There's also a lot of flexibility, and upper altissimo seems to jump out of them at will. The 54 sounds tame in comparison, but I also find that quality to be true in most SBA's. You sound great on both of them.
That silver plated VI was amazing. What year is it, just out of curiosity? I wonder what the comparison would be between the best lacquer VI you guys just have sitting around (Oh to have 17 VIs to chose from) and the Reference.
Hey there, I find the Reference to have a ... "smoother" sound. More suited to a wedding setting or something of the sort, where one needs a soft and beautiful sound. The Mark VI, however, has a much more bright tone. It is suited for loud, aggressive jazz playing. I personally prefer the Reference. The Selmer Reference 54 gets the coveted "ClarinetPages Thums Up" -Dave LeBlanc
Do you know what kind of horn Charlie Parker played? Whatever he could borrow when his was in the pawn shop (most of the time) Grearheads - go practice :) Individual horns can vary quite a bit. I've owned six Mark VI, liked 2 of them.
What an awesome comparison!.. I think the 54 sounds more 'correct' and in tune somehow and has an awesome mellowness to the tone.. But! the 54 suits that Genre and your style of playing so much more.. It really sings and Honks!.. :)
I got a 1965 mark 6 today it is amazing it is all original and the case is and the neck strap and it came with a Selmer c star soloist. The main think is I you want to buy a horn but you might think you will sell it in the future and older vintage one like the mark 6 value stays the same and it might go up in value over time. The reference 54 is the opposite it is a newer horn and it's price will drop right when it leaves the store but in many years the price will go up for it. The main thing is choose the horn that fits you and you like not the one that other people think is the best it might be the best for them but it could be the worst for you. Go out and try the saxophones you might want.
Mark VIs are for collectors, the reference 54 does the job fine and sound very similar to a good VI and the price is way better and no headaches, I go for the 54 all day long if you are busy player or just want a fantastic horn.
Interesting, some of my favourite players use a 54, and I'd heard all about the hype of the Mk V1. So you can imagine how surprised I was when I much preferred the sound of the Mk V1 in this test.
You can't compare a silver plated sax to a 54... they have nothing in common in terms of tone. Get a good original lacquered 1954 Mk VI to a brand new 54 and you'll hear similarities in the mids and maybe to low D but everything else will be a tad bit different.
Ok Vance- your comment bothered me and I figured I should investigate on this topic. I've come to the conclusion that you're should be right. I believe the Mk VI silver plated horns caome later than 56' (correct me if I'm wrong) and they sounded quite differently than the first Mk VI's. At least the ones I heard so far... Therefore I agree, he should have used a early serial number Mk Vi to compare the reference 54 to. Any feedback and/or correction highly appreciated!
HCL991 The year the horn was made isn't entirely why Vance brought up his point. Silver plating has a different timbre than gold and unlacquered. It is more mellow and has a different feel while playing. If I'm not mistaken, it also tends to be a little brighter as well. Gold and unlacquered are a little less mellow and tend to have more projection. For this to be a fair comparison. They should have tried to find a good unlacquered Mark VI, and they may sound relatively similar. The time they were made shouldn't really affect how they sound
Hi Fondest Eye, there is nothing wrong with your comment. It's just that thing that I've read both side of this rather popular opinion: One side claims the laquer has impact on the sound The other side claims it doesn't matter what material the instrument is built of (including the laquer layer). I personally don't have enough experience to judge this nor am I an tone expert. The only thing I know is that I can recognize a Selmer saxophone by its tone and that there is no other sax brand that sounds like a selmer to me. But maybe it's just my imagination, can't really tell. Best, hcl991
I agree with your opinion they are just different sounding. I started playing Mark VIs about 39 years ago as a student in a high school that equipped its band program with new Selmer professional horns. (They were serious about music.) The horns were all Mark VIs, from soprano down to the baritone. I noticed these horns all tended to have a cutting, edgy sound. I never owned a Mark VI personally, but this experience made me aware how they tended to sound and without exception the sound is unmistakable in great players like Dexter Gordon, Mike Brecker, Stanley Turrentine, and Joe Henderson. The latter used Selmer factory mouthpieces which softened his sound somewhat , and the others used Otto Links and Berg Larsens which were popular at the time. If you put a Berg Larson on a VI you have a seriously edgy-sounding horn. I played tenor for about 8 years before I lost my mind and mostly due to the higher cost of VIs a the time I settled on a 30's vintage Selmer Balance Action. This horn was identical to that used by John Coltrane for much of his 1950s work, and it had a more "round" sound to it than the VIs do. The action was ok but vastly inferior to that of the VI and I always thought of the VI as mainly an improvement in mechanics. I later owned a Mark VII which I hated and because of that experience I decided Selmer must have lost their way after the Mark VI.
Those two sure sound different. But dig it. I spent a long time alternating between my Mark VI tenor and a Ref 54. I could not tell any difference at all. None. Nada. Zippity doo dah. Listeners with their backs turned could not tell when I switched horns or pretended to. The sound I get is much more like the sound of the 54 in this vid than the VI. For the record, I use a particularly fine Morgan 7M mouthpiece, faced by Ralph Morgan himself. Maybe the silver plate on the VI has something to do with the difference. I do not know why it would, but something is going on there. The VI and the 54 have the same bore. If set up identically, they should sound virtually identical.
Man, I really wish you guys would redo this video with oranges vs. oranges. Get a decent serial lacquer or raw VI against that matte or a laquer 54. Silver plate has a diff tone, period.
It would have been nice to have heard the same piece on both horns to make a direct comparison. However, from what we got, my 1965 silver Mk VI and chosen mouthpiece (Yani metal 9) sounds far closer to the Ref 54 (which I like) than the VI/mouthpiece combo in the clip (which I find too reedy). However, having tried many horns in the sax.co.uk London shop, what amazed me was my horn's tonal flexibility and ability to "work" with a variety of different mouthpieces.
i think it wouldve been better for the direct comparison and a more fair one at that an original laquer or unlaquerd mkvi vs that reference. i mean isnt plain brass as opposed to silver plated brass a big difference? it brings a different color into play and its not exactly a fair comparison. thats just in my opinion correct me if im wrong. very nice video as always and also as always Jim Cheek knows what hes doing. Cheers from Puerto Rico
OK Jim--Mike from Vegas--I have both of these horns--an 89K VI and a 6K Reference. Here's what I have discovered: The VI has a more condensed/harder and focused center while the Reference has a broader/harder yet focused center. The Reference horns were designed to sound like the BEST sounding VI's and it's obvious--it's a killer horn and the "go-to" horn for me hands down.
I liked both a lot I’d like a little more of what you thought while playing each Sax because there is a lot happening behind the horn that we don’t hear in the audio. I’d pick the Mark VI for one reason… Price. You can get a really good players Mark VI for 5000-7000 USD (it may not be the prettiest Sax) while a Ref 54 new before depreciation is about 8000 USD.
I like the Reference 54 better but I noticed you don't play each eactly the same. I wonder if that accounts for some of the difference besides the silver plating on the VI.
I preferred the slightly wilder sound of the Mark VI. I've owned both too and preferred it as a player as well. The Ref 54 somehow seemed a bit generic to me whereas the Mark VI tends to induce more of a grin. I think it may be something to do with it having so many more miles on the clock - I feel the same with the altos and sopranos as well. I am sure as many people will prefer the Ref 54 and it clearly also sounds great. Thanks for the video!
I’ve owned a Ref 54 and currently own 3 Mk6 tenors of the following years: 1957, 1963 and 1967. I’ve also been repairing and playing tenor for over 50 years. What I’ve observed is that Mk6 tenors of different points of manufacture feel, play and sound different when played with the same mic and reed setup. I really don’t like to generalize re the Mk6 because great horns and duds can be found in any serial number range. My personal experience on the Mk6 horns I own is that my 1967 is the one I no longer like although at the time I bought it I felt it was a good buy because of its excellent condition. My 1963 horn didn’t get used much because of a foray into King Super 20 which was enjoyable but ultimately a fling.Long story short, I didn’t like the Ref54, got lucky and stumbled into the 1957 by accident and bought it. It’s the best 6 I’ve ever owned and happened to be in almost museum condition hence I don’t take it to bar gigs. By a stroke of luck I found a mystery neck that made my 1963 horn a killer rock horn and since it’s a relac I’m not hesitant to use it regularly. Bottom line, for me any way, is that a Ref 54 isn’t a replacement for a good Mk6, and the earlier Mk6 (before 120,000) horns may be a bit nicer than the much later ones. And your mouthpiece and reed has SO much to do with the response and sound you get. And finding the perfect neck also makes a difference. Oddly the best neck I ever found, and the one I currently use on my 112,000 tenor is of unknown origin, but I suspect it came from Taiwan.
You have to play them to "feel" the difference.....I like them both....in that price range,there are a lot of beautiful brands you have to try ,if you want something special.🎷🙂
I compared my 54 to my professors Mark VI (1956). I prefer the sound and feel of my 54 to his VI. Its not as out there but I'm already a loud player (on jazz anyways) so this works for me. Plus, the sound I get with my Link and the Java green reeds (sanded down a little) is just perfect. However, when I play classical tenor (wind ensemble, quartet) I use my Series II tenor with my C** and Silverstein ligature. Much more control on the dynamics and the vibrato is much smoother. Perfect for classical playing.
As expected the MKVI is very tight,compact and focused. My last MKVI was silver plated. I've never liked the Ref 54. Here it sounds more spread and hollow compared to the MKVI but still sounds great. Would be nice if you threw in your AS Autograph tenor in the mix. I now own the Newcastle model AS tenor and of the many MKVI's and other top tenors I've had the Sheppard tenor is the best for me. Great demo and you can hear the quality of the Selmers, great playing also Jim.
You should have made it a blind test then you'd have almost everyone admitting the 54 was the winner. The 54 is in a league of its own in this comparison.
OK.... the Silver plating and we don't know what pad/Resonator set-up is on the VI as well.... I mistakenly had my King Super 20 relacquered in the 70's and it never really sounded the same afterwards either. I was playing rock and roll and Manny (here in LA) suggested some brighter resonators when he did the repadding.... So all these things can make quite a difference. I liked the sound of the 54 just playing solo... but had he been on a Rock Gig having to blend with a Trombone,.... a Trumpet and maybe a Baritone... that VI would have been the sh*t.... two great horns. And yes, even the settings on the keys has so much to do with how you feel about taking on a Be Bop lick or a Blues Lick.... you've got to mix and match and don't bring a knife to a gunfight.... Some day there will be a vocabulary for Saxes just like talking about rare wine.... but for now... it's still all in the ears... and for the player... the ears and the feel in your hands.
the plating doesn't affect the sound of a horn at all. It is too light to do a real difference. the sound of a horn depends of the alloy it is made with.
I'll take the 1968 Mark VI any day. I don't know what happened from 65-68, but the sound changed in many Mark VI tenors. I tried like 30 of them in NY last summer (used my own Ottlink 5 with a 2.5 Rico) and you could actually hear the difference from dark and kind of lush 54-63 to more peppy and bright 63-68. Then from 69 on, it was weird. I could pick up one instrument and it would sound like a 64 and then another like 57 and another totally different. A 74 actually sounded pretty darn awesome...you could make it growl like no other in the shop. I have no idea why 5 digits outcompete these for value when its clear more modern music calls for a 74 resonation over the ooom-pah-pah 50's resonation. 68 though, it seemed like the sweet spot. I think it was a 156xxx but it seemed like the perfect chameleon. I tried four of them and all the same. You could easily get it to go dark or bright by just changing the mouthpiece and reed. I learned a lot that day...I learned these instruments bar none, you have to toot before you buy. I'm not saying there were dogs of the bunch. They all played well, it's just that you have to pick what you are looking for in sound. And believe me everything factors in, even how much the darn instrument was buffed.
I really wish these comparison videos just had the player holding some long tones. Especially low Bb so you can hear the full resonance of the instrument
I bought that Reference 54! Fantastic horn and i'm so so happy with it :)
I own a Selmer Mark VI Silver Plated.
I never played the Référence 54 but the VI is such a legend. Mine is a 1971 and it sound really great (for my opinion as well).
I completely agree with your assessments of the respective timbres of these two horns, though I found the difference subtle. The Mark VI is a little more centered and brighter; the Ref 54 I found a touch warmer. Regarding the relative stiffness of the action on the 54, I wonder how much of that is break-in: i.e. will it loosen up naturally over time?
Salut ! Je possède un REF 54 depuis peu et je pense que c’est un instrument merveilleux, il a juste besoin de temps pour que le SON se fasse …Et aussi chercher le Bec et l’Anche qui s’accordent avec lui .. Passer derrière le légendaire MK6 est très dur, mais le REF 54 aura sa place parmi les grands ;
Bon Sax à tous !
Both horns are very nice, but I could instantly tell a significant difference in the Ref 54 sound. Of the two horns I like the sound of the Ref 54 better!
Amazing!! One's horn is definitely one's own personal sound preference. Thanks for showcasing this example guys. Great Job!
Loved joy spring at the end! What you were playing at the beginning reminded me of Dexter Gordon A Night in Tunisia
Thanks, I really appreciate your channel. I had to give up playing about a decade ago due to repetitive stress injuries and sold my Mark VI. Seeing as the prices have nearly double I figured I'd never play on such a high quality horn again if I ever went back to playing and sure enough I'm back in action! Just yesterday I got lucky and found a very low priced Crampon Buffet S-1 (after searching for a year) and to my to shock and awe I like it more than my Mark VI (from the fifties), particularly the lower register (which I was never to crazy about on the IV). It seems that the Mark IV is one of many great saxophones. I say that because in the video here I prefer the Reference 54's sound. Of course I'd be more than happy to have my old Mark VI still with me but I'm having a lot of fun exploring my new horn. It seems that each professional model offers something different.
Really feeling that joy spring ending!
Great vid and solid playing skills! Thanks!
Very nice. Especially the 54. Thanks for posting.
Muy buena comparación ,súper completa tu descripción ,un abrazo de Buenos Aires!!
He plays with more feelings on the Reference, the player definitely brings his own opinion to the table. Plus every mark 6 is different while new horns have certain stability to them not making them much different from each other. So in other words this comparison proves nothing.
I preferred the sound of the Reference. But you seemed to have a really free time with the Mark 6. Guess it is personal preference!
Stumbling upon an ancient Saxologic comment :o
@@hisnameisdean “A really free time” lmao
I PERSONALLY PREFER THE AFTERGLOW SOUND BETTER BUT TO BE HONEST I'VE NEVER HEARD A SAX WITH BEFORE GLOW.
Do you have a Series 1 SA 80 Selmer Paris? I been having a heck of a time finding one. I used to play one when I was in college.
Occasionally we get one appear, but, people tend to have either side, a MkVII or a Series II/III
Ah..Thanks.
Sirvalorsax I have one! Deadly horn, and it didn't cost me an arm and a leg :)
I love these comparisons and end up flipping back and forth between the two instruments while being played. In this case I was really struck with how much they sounded the same. Yes, I suspect the player can hear a difference but I'm not sure the audience can. Thanks.
Man, they both sound pretty awesome. Just curious.. Is that a Rovner ligature your using? What do you think of the O'Leg? I personally play on a Otto Link with an O'Leg ligature and really love the sound on my alto. Maybe i'll up load something of me playing and you can tell me what you think? Maybe.lol
hey jim!!!! i recognised the standards you quoted at the end of your demo on the 54.. such a nice tune but i forgot the name lol
Great video!
Selmer Mark VI - The BEST HORN!!!
Well I'm old school and I was hoping for the Mark VI to sound much better.... but I closed my eyes and listened and at 2:40 you came in with the 2nd horn and it was Warmer to my ear and much more pleasant.... I guess this was the Reference 54 horn... and if so I'll take my hat off to the Selmer Company once again for their continued stellar work.... My MK VI was stolen in Ft Wayne Indiana in the 60's... and I replaced it with a King Super 20... Silversonic I picked up in Cleveland.... but I've always dreamed of getting another VI again.... but it is also about the feel of the horn under your fingers... how it fits your hands and how the mechanicals feel... this is so important. But I do remember I was more daring with things I'd try when I had the VI and something about having that MoJo.... in your hands is worth a lot... I love my King but still lust after the VI.... it's kind of like a love relationship... vexing.... but engaging. Nice Demo by the way. Got me thinking again.
very nice
i have Selmer Tenor Mark 7 1970
Ahgg the R 54 just sings to me
Technically yes, what you get is a thing called multiphonics, can be very hard to master, there are books available for this if you type in multiphonics on our website.
Sorry! We just realised the vocals only come through one speaker.. The playing seems okay though.
I like the "joy spring" reference at the end.
Both horns have their own character. the Mark has a brighter sound to it and the 54 has a darker tone. I own a 54 and continue to be impressed with it.
You're right, the Mk VI does sound drier, yet maintains a much rounder sound!
The Reference is on the dry side, but its darker, with a bite!
Nice comparison video!
The Ref: 54 has a warmer sound than the Silver mk v1 but could you correct that with a mouthpiece and reed or not. I tried the Ref 54 with an Ottolink Tone master 7* and a Rico jazz select no.2 medium but the sound didn't convince me I should part with cash.
The selmer mark 6 has brighter sound. The 54 is more thick sound. They are both good. Bu the 54 is better because the mark 6 is so bright, and the 54 has more of the tenor quality.
Teming with Javier I think u got it backwards
You have to play them to "feel" the difference.....I like them both....in that price range,there are a lot of beautiful brands you have to try ,if you want something special.🎷🙂
Thanks Jim for the demo. I find it difficult to judge the comparison because you are doing a demo with a silver horn with a brass horn ( a bit like apples and oranges comparison). I have both a Mk 6 and a Ref 54 and yes there are slight differences. I played the Ref 54 for many years and loved it till I got a Mk 6 and the tone of the Mk 6 is so unique that I use it 90% of my gigging. I would love to see a demo with both horns being brass.
The Mark VI - the best tenor sax ever made and played.
After the Conn 10m. And the Martin Committee iii. And the Selmer Balanced Action. But then, yeah.
Reference 54 sounds better in my opinion.
Da Epicenter I hear intonation problems with that reference 54 - sonically the 54 is a bigger sound--The reference 54 with a reference 36 neck is a great combination and probably one of the best horns you'll ever play
Both saxes sound good instant reaction I like the 54 . I wonder how the 36 compares with these two saxophones
Right channel out in video.
Actually kind of liked the Reference better. But how far away from the bell is the sound?
Both sound awesome but definitely preferred the Mark VI
Hmm, I was expecting the Mark VI to blow the doors off the Ref 54, but I liked the Ref 54 sound more. That VI sounds bright and tinny to my ears, and it's got nothing to do with the silver plating. Played a friend's 5-digit silver Mark VI and thing sounded amazing.
the mark 6 sounds smooth, do you think so, too??
That VI seems to be in line with the VI tenors that I prefer. There's a certain punch in the mid range those horns have that modern horns do not. There's also a lot of flexibility, and upper altissimo seems to jump out of them at will. The 54 sounds tame in comparison, but I also find that quality to be true in most SBA's. You sound great on both of them.
That silver plated VI was amazing. What year is it, just out of curiosity?
I wonder what the comparison would be between the best lacquer VI you guys just have sitting around (Oh to have 17 VIs to chose from) and the Reference.
They both sound great but I like the 54 better but would mind the mark 6 also
Hey there,
I find the Reference to have a ... "smoother" sound. More suited to a wedding setting or something of the sort, where one needs a soft and beautiful sound.
The Mark VI, however, has a much more bright tone. It is suited for loud, aggressive jazz playing.
I personally prefer the Reference.
The Selmer Reference 54 gets the coveted "ClarinetPages Thums Up"
-Dave LeBlanc
LIKE THE 54 BEST TONE
Do you know what kind of horn Charlie Parker played? Whatever he could borrow when his was in the pawn shop (most of the time) Grearheads - go practice :) Individual horns can vary quite a bit. I've owned six Mark VI, liked 2 of them.
my left ear enjoyed this
What an awesome comparison!.. I think the 54 sounds more 'correct' and in tune somehow and has an awesome mellowness to the tone.. But! the 54 suits that Genre and your style of playing so much more.. It really sings and Honks!.. :)
I got a 1965 mark 6 today it is amazing it is all original and the case is and the neck strap and it came with a Selmer c star soloist. The main think is I you want to buy a horn but you might think you will sell it in the future and older vintage one like the mark 6 value stays the same and it might go up in value over time. The reference 54 is the opposite it is a newer horn and it's price will drop right when it leaves the store but in many years the price will go up for it. The main thing is choose the horn that fits you and you like not the one that other people think is the best it might be the best for them but it could be the worst for you. Go out and try the saxophones you might want.
I wonder if all reference54 are consistent in sound
Where can I buy a selmer in Australia does anyone know?
Mark VIs are for collectors, the reference 54 does the job fine and sound very similar to a good VI and the price is way better and no headaches, I go for the 54 all day long if you are busy player or just want a fantastic horn.
The silver sax sounds more like an alto while the other one sounds like a tenor :P
Interesting, some of my favourite players use a 54, and I'd heard all about the hype of the Mk V1. So you can imagine how surprised I was when I much preferred the sound of the Mk V1 in this test.
You can't compare a silver plated sax to a 54... they have nothing in common in terms of tone. Get a good original lacquered 1954 Mk VI to a brand new 54 and you'll hear similarities in the mids and maybe to low D but everything else will be a tad bit different.
Can you please explain a little about why a silver plated Selmer Mark VI shouldn't be compared to a 54?
Ok Vance-
your comment bothered me and I figured I should investigate on this topic.
I've come to the conclusion that you're should be right.
I believe the Mk VI silver plated horns caome later than 56' (correct me if I'm wrong) and they sounded quite differently than the first Mk VI's. At least the ones I heard so far...
Therefore I agree, he should have used a early serial number Mk Vi to compare the reference 54 to.
Any feedback and/or correction highly appreciated!
HCL991 The year the horn was made isn't entirely why Vance brought up his point. Silver plating has a different timbre than gold and unlacquered. It is more mellow and has a different feel while playing. If I'm not mistaken, it also tends to be a little brighter as well. Gold and unlacquered are a little less mellow and tend to have more projection. For this to be a fair comparison. They should have tried to find a good unlacquered Mark VI, and they may sound relatively similar. The time they were made shouldn't really affect how they sound
Correct me if I am wrong on any of my points
Hi Fondest Eye,
there is nothing wrong with your comment.
It's just that thing that I've read both side of this rather popular opinion:
One side claims the laquer has impact on the sound
The other side claims it doesn't matter what material the instrument is built of (including the laquer layer).
I personally don't have enough experience to judge this nor am I an tone expert. The only thing I know is that I can recognize a Selmer saxophone by its tone and that there is no other sax brand that sounds like a selmer to me.
But maybe it's just my imagination, can't really tell.
Best,
hcl991
jim,
nice sound
what sax to you personally play on
I think to answer this, it's best to point you to another video :) ua-cam.com/video/pzONyOrKVNU/v-deo.html
i have a question... That grey sax, can you buy it in 2015, cause that sax is realy nice
Thomas dons that's a vintage Selemr MkVI.... discontinued in the early 1970s...
Thomas dons yeah just sell your car you'll probably have enough
Horn comparison aside...i liked the sudden Joyspring tidbit at the end :3
ahhhh my ears lol jk. is that silver plating after market? and what horn is his regular?
He plays an Andy Sheppard Autograph tenor
I agree with your opinion they are just different sounding. I started playing Mark VIs about 39 years ago as a student in a high school that equipped its band program with new Selmer professional horns. (They were serious about music.) The horns were all Mark VIs, from soprano down to the baritone. I noticed these horns all tended to have a cutting, edgy sound. I never owned a Mark VI personally, but this experience made me aware how they tended to sound and without exception the sound is unmistakable in great players like Dexter Gordon, Mike Brecker, Stanley Turrentine, and Joe Henderson. The latter used Selmer factory mouthpieces which softened his sound somewhat , and the others used Otto Links and Berg Larsens which were popular at the time. If you put a Berg Larson on a VI you have a seriously edgy-sounding horn. I played tenor for about 8 years before I lost my mind and mostly due to the higher cost of VIs a the time I settled on a 30's vintage Selmer Balance Action. This horn was identical to that used by John Coltrane for much of his 1950s work, and it had a more "round" sound to it than the VIs do. The action was ok but vastly inferior to that of the VI and I always thought of the VI as mainly an improvement in mechanics. I later owned a Mark VII which I hated and because of that experience I decided Selmer must have lost their way after the Mark VI.
Does anyone know which mouthpiece is?
Those two sure sound different. But dig it. I spent a long time alternating between my Mark VI tenor and a Ref 54. I could not tell any difference at all. None. Nada. Zippity doo dah. Listeners with their backs turned could not tell when I switched horns or pretended to. The sound I get is much more like the sound of the 54 in this vid than the VI. For the record, I use a particularly fine Morgan 7M mouthpiece, faced by Ralph Morgan himself.
Maybe the silver plate on the VI has something to do with the difference. I do not know why it would, but something is going on there. The VI and the 54 have the same bore. If set up identically, they should sound virtually identical.
Ha a little bit of joy spring in there
Man, I really wish you guys would redo this video with oranges vs. oranges. Get a decent serial lacquer or raw VI against that matte or a laquer 54. Silver plate has a diff tone, period.
It would have been nice to have heard the same piece on both horns to make a direct comparison. However, from what we got, my 1965 silver Mk VI and chosen mouthpiece (Yani metal 9) sounds far closer to the Ref 54 (which I like) than the VI/mouthpiece combo in the clip (which I find too reedy). However, having tried many horns in the sax.co.uk London shop, what amazed me was my horn's tonal flexibility and ability to "work" with a variety of different mouthpieces.
i think it wouldve been better for the direct comparison and a more fair one at that an original laquer or unlaquerd mkvi vs that reference. i mean isnt plain brass as opposed to silver plated brass a big difference? it brings a different color into play and its not exactly a fair comparison. thats just in my opinion correct me if im wrong. very nice video as always and also as always Jim Cheek knows what hes doing. Cheers from Puerto Rico
This is all about selling Ref 54 , the recording mix is what sounded different to me
What difference! Didn't notice that!
OK Jim--Mike from Vegas--I have both of these horns--an 89K VI and a 6K Reference. Here's what I have discovered: The VI has a more condensed/harder and focused center while the Reference has a broader/harder yet focused center. The Reference horns were designed to sound like the BEST sounding VI's and it's obvious--it's a killer horn and the "go-to" horn for me hands down.
I liked both a lot I’d like a little more of what you thought while playing each Sax because there is a lot happening behind the horn that we don’t hear in the audio. I’d pick the Mark VI for one reason… Price. You can get a really good players Mark VI for 5000-7000 USD (it may not be the prettiest Sax) while a Ref 54 new before depreciation is about 8000 USD.
Only getting audio in the left channel.
Same here.
Mark VI forever !!!
I like the Reference 54 better but I noticed you don't play each eactly the same. I wonder if that accounts for some of the difference besides the silver plating on the VI.
I preferred the slightly wilder sound of the Mark VI. I've owned both too and preferred it as a player as well. The Ref 54 somehow seemed a bit generic to me whereas the Mark VI tends to induce more of a grin. I think it may be something to do with it having so many more miles on the clock - I feel the same with the altos and sopranos as well. I am sure as many people will prefer the Ref 54 and it clearly also sounds great. Thanks for the video!
The 54 sounds much better for me
I personally like your sound on the reference better.
やはり、アメセル、マーク６は、良い音が出ますね、私も、２０年前に、アメセルマーク６を買い、毎日、練習しています。
I’ve owned a Ref 54 and currently own 3 Mk6 tenors of the following years: 1957, 1963 and 1967. I’ve also been repairing and playing tenor for over 50 years. What I’ve observed is that Mk6 tenors of different points of manufacture feel, play and sound different when played with the same mic and reed setup. I really don’t like to generalize re the Mk6 because great horns and duds can be found in any serial number range. My personal experience on the Mk6 horns I own is that my 1967 is the one I no longer like although at the time I bought it I felt it was a good buy because of its excellent condition. My 1963 horn didn’t get used much because of a foray into King Super 20 which was enjoyable but ultimately a fling.Long story short, I didn’t like the Ref54, got lucky and stumbled into the 1957 by accident and bought it. It’s the best 6 I’ve ever owned and happened to be in almost museum condition hence I don’t take it to bar gigs. By a stroke of luck I found a mystery neck that made my 1963 horn a killer rock horn and since it’s a relac I’m not hesitant to use it regularly. Bottom line, for me any way, is that a Ref 54 isn’t a replacement for a good Mk6, and the earlier Mk6 (before 120,000) horns may be a bit nicer than the much later ones. And your mouthpiece and reed has SO much to do with the response and sound you get. And finding the perfect neck also makes a difference. Oddly the best neck I ever found, and the one I currently use on my 112,000 tenor is of unknown origin, but I suspect it came from Taiwan.
In my opinion, the VI had a more focused & centered sound and the Reference sounded a little "fluffy" to me. Two completely different sounding horns.
I prefer the tone of the reference 54, but i must admit the mark VI has a unique and bright tone
You have to play them to "feel" the difference.....I like them both....in that price range,there are a lot of beautiful brands you have to try ,if you want something special.🎷🙂
I liked the Reference 54 better, thicker sound compared to the Mk VI which seemed brighter.
Reference 👍
Right Channel sound is missing on this video ...
After I heard you playing I will not sell my Reference 54 and I would not change for a Mk VI
I'm assuming the first sax was the 54?? :) Be nice if you put a text graphic on the video...
The first (the silver plated One) Is the Mark VI, the second Is the 54.
Ref 54 but really to be fair they should have the same finish too right?
Is it possible to play two notes at the same time on one sax?
I compared my 54 to my professors Mark VI (1956). I prefer the sound and feel of my 54 to his VI. Its not as out there but I'm already a loud player (on jazz anyways) so this works for me. Plus, the sound I get with my Link and the Java green reeds (sanded down a little) is just perfect.
However, when I play classical tenor (wind ensemble, quartet) I use my Series II tenor with my C** and Silverstein ligature. Much more control on the dynamics and the vibrato is much smoother. Perfect for classical playing.
As expected the MKVI is very tight,compact and focused. My last MKVI was silver plated. I've never liked the Ref 54. Here it sounds more spread and hollow compared to the MKVI but still sounds great. Would be nice if you threw in your AS Autograph tenor in the mix. I now own the Newcastle model AS tenor and of the many MKVI's and other top tenors I've had the Sheppard tenor is the best for me. Great demo and you can hear the quality of the Selmers, great playing also Jim.
You should have made it a blind test then you'd have almost everyone admitting the 54 was the winner. The 54 is in a league of its own in this comparison.
Just to be sure, which sax does he play first ?
The MkVI is the silver one (first) and the refercne is matt lacquered (second)
Sax .co.uk Thank you.....
OK.... the Silver plating and we don't know what pad/Resonator set-up is on the VI as well.... I mistakenly had my King Super 20 relacquered in the 70's and it never really sounded the same afterwards either. I was playing rock and roll and Manny (here in LA) suggested some brighter resonators when he did the repadding.... So all these things can make quite a difference. I liked the sound of the 54 just playing solo... but had he been on a Rock Gig having to blend with a Trombone,.... a Trumpet and maybe a Baritone... that VI would have been the sh*t.... two great horns. And yes, even the settings on the keys has so much to do with how you feel about taking on a Be Bop lick or a Blues Lick.... you've got to mix and match and don't bring a knife to a gunfight.... Some day there will be a vocabulary for Saxes just like talking about rare wine.... but for now... it's still all in the ears... and for the player... the ears and the feel in your hands.
I grew up with the VI but have to say the 54 is king on this occasion.
So Iconic with saxy jazz and I like that Neck Strap its so Modern What Kind of strap is that.
It was a limited edition rico strap...
Awesome Thanks.
the plating doesn't affect the sound of a horn at all. It is too light to do a real difference. the sound of a horn depends of the alloy it is made with.
Where is that place you are in?
The Reference sounds warmer
I'll take the 1968 Mark VI any day. I don't know what happened from 65-68, but the sound changed in many Mark VI tenors. I tried like 30 of them in NY last summer (used my own Ottlink 5 with a 2.5 Rico) and you could actually hear the difference from dark and kind of lush 54-63 to more peppy and bright 63-68. Then from 69 on, it was weird. I could pick up one instrument and it would sound like a 64 and then another like 57 and another totally different. A 74 actually sounded pretty darn awesome...you could make it growl like no other in the shop. I have no idea why 5 digits outcompete these for value when its clear more modern music calls for a 74 resonation over the ooom-pah-pah 50's resonation. 68 though, it seemed like the sweet spot. I think it was a 156xxx but it seemed like the perfect chameleon. I tried four of them and all the same. You could easily get it to go dark or bright by just changing the mouthpiece and reed. I learned a lot that day...I learned these instruments bar none, you have to toot before you buy. I'm not saying there were dogs of the bunch. They all played well, it's just that you have to pick what you are looking for in sound. And believe me everything factors in, even how much the darn instrument was buffed.