Відео

Great questions ! We unfortunately know very little about Radagon's origins, so it all comes down to speculation. Having a King Consort is indeed implied to be a requirement in order to be considered a legitimate god/ruler in this setting. Radagon acting as the first 'unofficial' King Consort would be a logical conclusion, and it's plausible Marika erased that fact from history (as she's implied to have done about other topics) after marrying Godfrey. Or maybe the practice of having a consort was established by Marika post-ascension, and Radagon came later. Hard to tell either way. Thanks for the comment

We know Marika's a Shamman and "The flesh of shamans was said to meld harmoniously with others." so, is posible that Marika and Radagon were 2 separated persons but once Marika married him and got all her childrens she just absorbed Radagon into herself.

I think he was her consort when she ascended. There's a conversation she has much later with Radagon that Melina tells us about. To me, it implies he has never been a god. So that would mean she split him from herself before attaining godhood. It also implies, in my opinion, that he has been his own separate entity until just before she shatters the Elden Ring.

Is it just me or is the voice of Geralt a bit different in this quest? I guess it’s because they recorded it much later for the Next gen update and the voice actor is a bit older now (or might have forgotten exactly how he did the voice for the original release?)

@@yggdrasil4986 You're absolutely right, I noticed it too. I guess the voice actor for Geralt (the amazing Doug Cockle) may have been a bit rusty when recording lines for this quest. The voice sounds a bit more "forced", with a higher pitch compared to the rest of the game. Almost sounds like someone doing a Geralt impression, rather than the original voice actor. Understandable, considering dialogue for the original game was recorded over 10 years ago at this point.

@@RPG_Curator You make some great points there. True enough!

Radagon's Icon: As the husband of Rennala of Caria, the red-haired Radagon studied sorcery, and as the husband of Queen Marika, he studied incantations. Thus did the hero aspire to be complete. So Radagon didn't know Incantations, less be the Lord of the Golden Order by the time of the war of the giants, that happened once he became ELDEN LORD. Raddagon has the Ring because he became Elden Lord, and also Is or became part of Marika, before that, he was a champion.

Thanks for the comment ! Godfrey is never confirmed to be stronger than Radagon. It's an interesting line of speculation, but just because Marika sent him to lead wars of conquest does not mean she/Radagon was too weak to do so. Besides, Radagon did lead the Liurnian wars, so I think that line of thinking falls short imho. Placidusax bending time does not seem to be something he's actively doing. More so a byproduct of the stasis he and Farum Azula's core have been plunged in when his god left. He certainly doesn't manipulate time during his boss fight, so I don't think it's fair to count that as an actual ability in a power ranking context. As for Rykard, I'd agree with you if not for the Serpent Hunter spear. That's a massive vulnerability, that can be exploited by pretty much any mortal humanoid, as implied by the ghost dialogue in Volcano Manor. A lot of this is up to personal interpretation tbh, but I think they are interesting topics of speculation ! Always interested in reading different takes about the lore.

@@RPG_Curator Godfrey SHOULD be stronger than Radagon, because before you fight Godfrey, his grace was pointing at the Erdtree. If you weren't fighting Godfrey, Godfrey would be fighting Radagon (and most likely win, before falling to the Elden Beast, likely). The only reason Godfrey stopped to fight you is because we SEE the guidance of grace point towards the Tarnished during the cutscene. The Somber Ancient Smithing Stones directly state that Placidusax's scales are capable of altering time, so time manipulation is a part of Placidusax's powerset.

Sounds like a plausible theory for sure. Messmer repeatedly calls Marika "Mother", but I guess he could have been adopted. Speculating on the Gloam Eyed Queen is tough, since we know so little about her. But you could be onto something with the visual similarities you mentioned. Thank you for the comment !

@@RPG_Curator by the way, do you have the exact link to that combined map from the reddit user? I tried to find it and it would be a great help for one off my next videos. Thx and keep on

Here's the reddit thread : reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1dw6ldf/a_toscale_map_overlay_of_the_shadowlands/

@@RPG_Curator awesome. Thx a lot

It makes even more sense if Radagon is a disguise Marika uses to "seduce" the Gloam Eyed Queen, being a master of illusion (Mimic's Veil). Their children are afflicted with curses due to the unnatural union, and then Marika kills the GEQ by the Gate of Divinity (She is wearing Radagons outfit in the Story Trailer) and becomes a God and Consort at the same time. Maybe at that point the Elden Ring is housed within Radagon, since he is not a real person, which explains why he has a will that differs from Marika's.

No plans for voiceover narration at the moment as I lack the necessary setup, but definitely something I'd like to do in the future. Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, I know I’m not the only one that likes to listen to lore videos or video essays while doing something else (working, cooking, playing a game, etc)

1. Great point. You could be onto something there. I still think the overall narrative makes more sense with Godwyn as the firstborn demigod child. Messmer could have inspired his fighting style on the giants fate rather than him being the source. Also I think we see similar impalements on the way up to Mt.Gelmir IIRC, and there's a whole dungeon based around the impalement theme, suggesting this practice wasn't unique to the giant purge era. 2. I think Melina's existence was kept secret, even more so than Messmer's may have been, with the very existence of Kindling Maidens being taboo under the Golden Order. The idea of burning the Erdtree is associated with blasphemy, and clearly something the Elden Beast/Ring would have wanted to avoid at all costs. Also it is implied at least 1 person knew of Melina : Miquella, who supposedly gave her Torrent's ownership. 3. That's definitely plausible, and makes a lot of sense. 4. The council being a post-shattering thing seems to be the most common interpretation in the community. I may be in the minority here, but it just doesn't make a ton of sense to me. The seats are arranged in a half circle around the main throne, instead of a Roundtable setting that would suggest equality in a council of regents. Also, neither Morgott nor most of the other demigods strike me as a characters who would be open to compromise with each other at any point after Marika goes missing. You make an excellent point about the sword monument though. I wonder what else, if anything, could the "Sovereign Alliance" refer to in context of the Shattering. 5. That's a fair point, and an important nuance in Morgott's characterization. You're absolutely correct. Thanks for the insightful comment !

Blessing of Marika: A special physick blessed by Marika, the queen of the Erdtree. She's Queen of the Erdtree, married with Godfrey Elden Lord. Marika's statue in messmer's room shows her with 1 marriage armband, while all the others shows her with 2, after her second marriage. Messmer troops uses the stomp that Only Godfrey and Crucible Knights do, so obviously those troops learned from them. Fire Knights, messmer's best friends were Nobles from the Erdtree, so it should happened long after Leyndell was already a prosperous kingdom. Rellana and her servants left their Kingdom to go along Erdtree troops so help with Messmer's crusade so that should happened after Liurnian wars. So Radagon was already married with Rennalla, he even met young Raddahn and Raddahn had a friendship with Gaius, so the Crusade couldn't happen until that time, when Messmer was still a Well Known and revered Figure.

@@dreadknight0 I'm not entirely sure of your point. I'm not saying Messmer's crusade happened that early I'm just saying his birth did. its not like he went to the lands of shadow as an infant. he could easily have been born before Godfrey became lord and not have left on his crusade until much later. He's also referred to as an older brother figure for Radahn so that would make sense

Goddrick's Great rune is pretty clear: The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage. Messmer was son of Marika so if he was around before Godfrey he would be the first demigod.

@@dreadknight0 messmer was a bastard cursed by a fire serpent (2 things considered enemies of the golden order) who was later hidden away from the world. there's an extremely high chance that his parentage would've been kept secret to ensure that Godwyn was the official heir which makes sense considering literally nobody in the base game gives any indication that they know he exists. plus we already know those item descriptions arent omniscient since they don't know that radagon is marika

Thats an interesting theory. I always thought it made more sense for the Golden Order to be founded right from the beginning of Marika's reign, since it basically acts as the realm's main religion/philosophy and set of laws. Also, having the Golden Order created that late means Godwyn would have lived a long time without immortality. And Godfrey's bloodline is called the "Golden Lineage", makes sense it would be tied with the Golden Order from an early age. But you could definitely be right. We just don't know enough about the Golden Order to know for certain either way. Thanks for the comment !

@RPG_Curator I think too, that I'm using the thought of golden order, as golden order fundamentalism. That said to me, I think they are the same thing. I can not find any actual text the says "Golden Order" prior to Radagon being Elden Lord. There is a lot of mention of Gold, and Marika's reign has always been Gold. But with the way FS is, it just seems weird that they never actually say "Golden Order".

Something you should consider is that the Fingerslayer Blade is extremely similar to the Sacred Relic Sword, which we know is the corpse of Radagon. I believe it's implicit that the Fingerslayer Blade is made of the corpse of a god too. To support this theory we can look at the description of the SRS: "Sword wrought from the remains of a god who should have lived a life eternal. Thoughts on what the weapon portends are many and varied. Some consider it the mark of a great sin, or a sign of great devastation. Some think of it as the end of an age, while others; the beginning." How can people have opinions on what the sword means if we see it's created during our fight with the Elden Beast? I believe it's safe to assume it's because a similar weapon had already been made by the Nox, which is the Fingerslayer Blade. This would imply that the Nox had in fact a God which they slain in order to make a weapon capable of hurting the Fingers and severing forever their connection with the GW. However this would also imply that the Elden Ring was already in the LB, as we know that a God is the vessel of the ER, thus making the arrival of the Elden Beast precedent to the Nox rebellion.

@loja7892 i agree mostly with what you've got there. There's an issue with placing the crucible in the timeline. The crucible and the great tree cycled life existed before the erdtree. Why weren't the Nox involved in that? Like you said, they probably worshipped a different god at that time which either perished/ or was killed to establish creation of the fingerslaying blade and it definitely fits with the sacred blade description of "end of an age/ beginning of another". If the Nox learnt to create a god slaying weapon from the corpse of another, does this explain the giant thrones with corpses on them in Nokstella and Nokron? Then the giant empty Throne in Sellia suggests that the Nox were worshipping giants from Caelid (hence the giant skeletons embedded in the rock) as deities for their cities and not actual gods.

agreed, i think he's likely firstborn son, then melina, then the usual mix

I also think that marika and radagon had messmer when marika was just an empyrean and not a god, since radagon is her alter ego and Miquella's alter ego is st trina

Affectionate? Hmm. His references to Marika quite clearly imply he thinks she sent the Tarnished to kill him.

Marika's statue holding baby messmer have 1 wedding armband, the others shows marika with 2 showing she's already married with Radagon. The Society of the Erdtree was already well soldified by the time the crusade even started. Messmer's trops are from the Erdtree era and the Fire Knights were nobles from the Erdtree society, so such crusade should have happened when Leyndell was already a powerfull Kingdom, so that should happen after the wars with the giants and the war with the ancient dragons, where Godwynn was the hero of the war with the dragons Marika was already Queen of the Erdree as it is stated in the Blessing of Marika item, so Marika was already a renowend Queen, Married with Godfrey, with a society of Nobles in Leyndell from where the Fired Knights came, so the crusade Happened a long time ago AFTER Marika's and Godfrey Marriage, Messmer Could be Marika's first son with Raddagon and the reason of why she left Godfrey, when she discovered that could have sons "with hersself"

@realQuestion maybe affectionate is the wrong word. But before that point he was still respectful, and addresses her first as his mother.

Not only that, George RR Martin's own initials make up all of the Demigods, Lords, & Queens: [G]odfrey, [R]adagon, [R]ennala, [M]arika

Thanks for the insightful comment ! Messmer's crusade is tricky to place on the timeline. I don't necessarily think it would be tied to all the other major wars though. Leda calls it a "war unseen" in the DLC story trailer. Unlike other conflicts we know about (giants, dragons, liurnia), I think this one wasn't really about conquest and subjugating new lands. More like a personal grudge, or cover-up war, that would logically make more sense to launch once the Realm is already well established and not just a burgeoning order as it was during the early years. I'm not sure the concept of Tarnished predates Godfrey's banishment. Could definitely be wrong though. Feel free to provide a tangible source, maybe I missed something on that front, definitely interested in learning more. My interpretation was that being a Tarnished, and not having the Grace of Gold are 2 different things. Tarnished (as the name implies) specifically used to be blessed by Gold, and lost it when Godfrey was banished. Their eyes are a darker hue of gold/yellow. Whereas creatures like Omen or Hornsent never had the Grace of Gold to begin with. As for Messmer learning of Godfrey's fate in the Realm of Shadow, it's absolutely plausible. We know Miquella visited the Shadow Keep on his way to Enir-Illim, so he could have told Messmer about recent events in the overworld. Regarding the council being formed after the Shattering, this used to be my favored interpretation as well. The thing is though, the seats are set up in a circle around the main throne, suggesting there *was* a ruler at the time, and not just demigods ruling together.. The seat arrangment would look different if that was the case imho. I doubt the other demigods would accept Morgott's authority at any point in time, even temporarily. Morgott calls them "traitors" because they never accepted his rule, and didn't show up again after the Shattering. At least, that's my interpretation. I also doubt Morgott was part of the council at any point before the Shattering, he and Mohg were presumably shunned below Leyndell for a very long time. The Haligtree could indeed have been planted post-Shattering. I would assume such a tree would take a very long time to grow though, which is why I favor an earlier point in the timeline. From a narrative/world-building standpoint, the Haligtree acts as a beacon of hope for the oppressed, that attracts many pilgrims. For such a hidden place to attract that many people, I think it makes more sense to have been around for a long time. As for challenging the Erdtree being unthinkable before the Shattering, I don't think that's necessarily true. Godwyn's death was the main catalyst, but I think Marika's rule wasn't nearly as popular by that point compared to Godfrey's era. Miquella was an idealist with benevolent intent, he saw all the suffering/oppression caused by the Golden Order, and wanted to do something about it. Besides, he was an Empyrean, presumably considered the main heir to the throne no less, I doubt that act alone would have placed him in direct opposition to the Erdtree.

I think that Morgott calls his siblings "Willful traitors, all!" is because they did not care to keep the status quo established by Marika, his mother. They all proceed to wage war against each other in order to take possesion of the Elden Ring. And I believe Morgott only takes Lyndell because of his loyalty to Marika and to defend what was left of it.

@@lionheart4424 Here's the thing: how would Morgott take control of Leyndell? He is the veiled king, someone people never see directly because otherwise people would realize he's an omen and reject him, so how did he became king of Leyndell? I think that Morgott had to be have been made king by the other demigods themselves when they briefly tried to rule conjointly, and that's when Morgott became king as eldest of the Golden Lineage, with the initial approval of the other demigods. Godrick and the rest of the Golden Lineage clearly didn't enjoy being overruled by an Omen, and that's why they seemingly betrayed the Alliance and were defeated at Leyndell as said by the sword monument.

re: the thrones they could also all just be sitting around like, you know, an empty throne. they're all wondering who has the balls to take it for themselves

@@RPG_Curator about Messmer knowing of Godfrey by miquella . Wouldn’t by your timeline messermer not know about miquella being his brother ( and viceversa probably)?

Yeah man, people say this is good writing, but its not. I bet GRRM gave many of the answers you seek, but myasaki just hid them to create this air of mistery...

Serosh looks nothing like the divine beasts the Hornsent worship. The divine warriors in the dlc seem to be what they worship. A mix of man and beast. And his purpose is to hold back Godfrey's bloodlust so he can act like a proper lord. When he rips him off, he returns to his former self. I'm pretty sure that's mentioned in the clothing you can get from him.

"he, too, was betrayed" in Maliketh's Remembrance is doing insane heavy lifting on the "Marika was in on the plot" hypothesis

@@lettuceprime4922 "Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him."

@Dreamerx47 still too vague. For all we know he roamed freely just like Blaidd until she abandoned him. Clearly everyone knew of him enough to know to be afraid.

Just remembered that Freyja, upon learning of the plan to make Radagon into a consort, she says something like "oh yeah that totally makes sense. Hed super do that. Good for him" 💀

The Hornsent were doing the jar stuff to their own people for a long time, probably with the intention to create saints that could achieve godhood. It wouldn't be crazy to say that they sacrificed a lot or their own kin (most surely criminals and other undesirable people, maybe even some willful volunteers) to finally reach the heavens and create the gate of divinity. I think Marika was simply the one who got lucky and could become a god, and with her new found power, she quietly amassed and army, until the time to avenge her people came.

(1) Correct. The event named "Nox" in the timeline marks the banishment of their eternal cities underground, the timeline never meant to imply the Numen's arrival predated the Nox civilization. (2) Pladicusax's remembrance doesn't specify the identity of his god. As for the statue, I guess you mean the one with the wolves ? Interesting theory for sure. (3) Sounds plausible, though we know the Greater Will doesn't need much justification to go after rival civilizations when its supremacy is threatened (Giants, Dragons, and so forth). Godwyn's death happened far after Godfrey and Radagon's territorial conquests, the Nox had already been "dealt with" by that point imo. (4), (5) and (6) Not sure where any of this comes from. Feel free to share item descriptions or other tangible clues that support those theories, I'm definitely interested in hearing more.

1) How can the Nox predate the Numen when the Nox themselves are a category of Numens? I also really can't see these supposed architecture being talked about. Nox architecture is gothic, as opposed to the Greco-Roman style of the Ancient Dynasty. We don't see Numen architecture because we don't get to see an explicit Numen civilization outside of the Nox, only a bunch of ancient civilizations that maybe were Numen themselves. 2) It's a reasonable supposition, one I generally share, but one has to be careful remembering that it's all still a supposition. This theory however only further points toward the Nox being a later development, they couldn't have preceded the Ancient Dragons. 3) This is definitely unconfirmed in the game, possibly even hinting against. We don't know the nature of the Nox's treason nor the date of their banishment, but the Fingerslayer Blade we find in their domains might suggest that they once tried to strike against the Fingers, something long before Marika's reign. 4) Actually, we really don't know. We don't have descriptions these specific about the timeline of Marika's kids. 5) I can agree with this timeline of the separation of the Shadow Realm and the idea that Godfrey marched straight south to Limgrave going through the central plains. The moment the Shadow Realm became the Shadow Realm and was removed from the Lands Between is ambiguous, and could really be placed anywhere between Marika's ascension and well into Messmer's Crusade. 6) This seems unlikely. The earliest war of the Erdtree is that against the Giants, and the Golden Order victory in that war marked the beginning of the Age of the Erdtree. The war against the Ancient Dragons, owing to Godfrey seeming absence since he was likely busy in the South, and Godwyn being old enough to leading the battle, likely happened toward the end of the period of the Early Erdtree wars. Also, I don't know what queen you're talking about here, because you also place the Godhunt after it, which is when Marika fought the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Messmer was likely present during the Crucible era, and he might indeed be the oldest demigod regardless of what we previously believed about Godwyn, but that's beside the point. 7) That's a fair analysis, but I wouldn't exclude that Marika always harbored contempt for the Hornsent even before starting the Crusade, and she lashed out when she birthed two Omen twins even if it was still in the period when the manifestations of the Crucible weren't shunned yet.

@@cammyshill3099 Some people think the Nox are a category of Numen because item description says the phantom assassins who killed Godwyn were scions of the eternal cities but were of the same stock as Marika herself. Scion means offshoot. of the same stock means the same thing. This means the scions were produced in a marriage between the Numen and the Nox. In other words the golden order peacefully took over the eternal cities. That doesn't mean Nox and Numen were united from the beginning. The Nox are descended from northern astrologers. They are native to the lands between. The Numen came from outside the lands between. We do see Numen architecture. It's just not original. Numen are conquerors, not innovators. Just like Marika, they take over other civilizations and bring them under their own banner. there are four generations of Numen civilizations: (1) The Uhl civilization and the ancient dynasty (Elden John) and their underground temples such as Mohgwyn palace are a repurposed form of an early eternal civilization. (2) Farum Azula throne room has an ancient form of Elden Ring that is markedly Numen. But the rest of its architecture is unique. (3) The church of vows, Selia, Ordina, upper Leyndell, have a unique Byzantine-Syrian style with lots of saint and tree statues and reliefs. (4) Elphael has a late byzantine, late middle-age cathedral style. This is mature Numen architecture.

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@armandaneshjoo - ...Nokstella is, like, clearly built _on top_ of or around the Uhl Palace ruin, the Grand Cloister, & all that ancient architecture. the ruins that became Mohgwyn Palace visibly predate Nokron by a significant margin of time. If we're going to use real-world architecture to date our timeline, surely the ancient greek & mesopotamian ruins predate the gothic cities of the Nox?

@@lettuceprime4922 Yes. There are three generations of Nox civilization: (1) The Uhl civilization was founded by the Nox or their ancestors. Their symbol is a Babylonian world map. It was only later taken over by the great dynast who added the obelisks as well as the tree tablets and reliefs. His followers erected his statue. I don't even think the great dynast was Numen. But he clearly surrendered to Numen, rejected his own culture, accepted their culture, erected their obelisks, and added the Numen symbols to his culture. So while the Uhl architecture is Nox, the Uhl obelisks, statues and newer tablets are Numen. But if you look behind those, you can still see ancient Nox architecture. (2) Nox architecture is not gothic. Nokron is Egyptian. Nokstella is Greek. Lower Leyndell is Roman. This is the second generation of the Nox who revolted against the Numen culture. After that, we only find Numen architecture in Farum Azula. (3) There are gothic elements in the game. But they are mostly found in Caria and later Numen architecture, not Nox architecture. For example there are plenty of Gothic works in Selia, Ordina, and Elphael. These were seemingly built by Nox under Numen occupation. But they are all Numen innovations over the Nox architecture. Can you give me an example of gothic culture deep in the Eternal Cities?

Thanks for the kind words ! 🙂Glad you enjoyed. About Rennala, that's an interesting line of thinking. My only issue with it is that Miriel states the Academy "locked away" Rennala when she lost her mind. Which is also supported by descriptions on Rennala's robes set, stating "When Rennala, head of both the Academy of Raya Lucaria and the Carian royal family, lost her husband Radagon, her heart went along with him. And then, those at the academy realized. That Rennala was no champion, after all." In my opinion, the "and then" in that sentence reads like these events might have happened in quick succession, which leaves little room for Rellana to gather troops, obtain her sister's blessing and leave before she's imprisonned. Your theory isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility. Rellana could have been allowed to visit her sister. Or maybe she forced her way to the Grand Library. Perhaps she didn't care about her sister's imprisonment, got a dubious "approval" and left. We simply don't know enough about their personalities/relationship to know for sure. But it does seems more likely that Rellana would obtain her sister's blessing willingly imho.

@@RPG_Curator Thanks for the in depth response! I really like the logic of your timeline overall. I think presented in this way certain events have a richer context. I think I’m just drawn to the idea that events around Messmer’s crusade feel emotionally driven in a way. As though something (the birth of Marika and Radagon’s children perhaps) eventually triggered a bubbling over of long held tensions and resentments. I’m probably reaching more for music than I am for fact when I do that, but I sort of like the idea that this section of the lore is like the “Red Wedding” of Elden Ring. An ordeal that changes everything rapidly and casts a long shadow over all that follows.

Messmer's birth (06:48) does predate the birth of the Carian Siblings (08:02) in this timeline. As for placing it before Godfrey's conquests, it is a valid theory. We simply don't have enough info regarding the exact time of his birth, other than him being considered an "older brother" to Radahn, to tell with certainty one way or the other. In my humble opinion, it makes more sense from a narrative standpoint that Godwyn actually was the firstborn child of Marika (as his title, First of the Demigods, implies), with Messmer being born at a later time. His characterization suggests he spent most of his lifetime in the Realm of Shadows, and we have no confirmation of him being around during most of Godfrey's era. Interesting topic of speculation for sure though. Thanks for the comment.

@@RPG_Curator from where do you have the title "first of the demigods" in regards to Godwyn? I know him as; The Prince of death Godwyn the Golden And The first of the demigods TO DIE So id like the proof of where his firstborn Status was Ever confirmed. As for Messmer, Rellanas Remembrance States that she gave up her Status as crownprincess to fight by Messmers side, I interpreted this as her leaving the Carians at a point in time in which Rennalla was yet to be Queen of the Carians herself, placing Messmers birth and adulthood at a point in time before The Liurnian Wars and most likely Pre Godfrey Conquests. If you were to put Rellana Joining Messmers Crusade at a time at which the Carians and Golden Order were at peace by wedlock then it wouldn't make sense for her to give up her Status. What im trying to say is, Messmer is a lot older than your timeline suggests.

@@TheRealJohnux Godrick's Great Rune states : "The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage." While this doesn't 100% confirm Godwyn was the firstborn demigod, we only know of 5 members of the Golden Lineage : Godwyn, Morgott, Mohg, Godfroy, and Godrick, the latter two being distant descendants of the first. Godwyn also has a ton of backstory presumably dating back to Godfrey's age. For him to be this renowned in that ancient era, means he must have been born early. "First of the demigods" is indeed a mistake on my part, you're absolutely correct about that. I just think Godwyn being the eldest child is the most logical conclusion, looking at the whole context tbh. He's known as Godwyn the Golden. "The golden child" is a saying often used to refer to the 'favorite' child. The first born is typically the favorite. Which explains why Marika went as far as Shattering the Elden Ring when Godwyn died. Regarding Rellana, you make an interesting point, but it doesn't sound very plausible to me. Rennala's remembrance explicitly states that she's the one who founded the royal house of Caria. And we find a decent amount of Caria/Academy troops at Castle Ensis, the exact same found in the Academy and Ranni's castle, which suggests the house of Caria was already well established militarily by the time of the crusade. As for her leaving on Messmer's crusade during the Carian/Erdtree peace by wedlock, I don't think it's that out of the realm of possibility for her to renounce her birthright at that point. Plenty of plausible motivations, ranging from being in love with Messmer, to perhaps disliking Radagon and the influence he has on her sister, or just zealously following Marika's orders hoping to be rewarded by the queen. It's really not that unusual of an occurence in fantasy settings (especially ones penned by George RR Martin !) for young nobles to renounce their birthright/claims to the throne, especially when they aren't first in line. I agree Messmer could be older than this timeline suggests. It just doesn't sound like the more logical conclusion to me when looking at the full picture. But you could absolutely be right.

@@RPG_Curator Rellanas helmet reads that she was "chasing after Messmer" and it is a widely accepted theory that Rellana had a onesided crush on him.

@@TheRealJohnux Rellana's helmet states: "Rennala, head of the royal family of Caria, was said to have given her younger sister, who renounced her lineage to chase after Messmer, a gift of lustrous black hair." Her remembrance states: "Once a Carian princess, Rellana disavowed her birthright and chose to stand at Messmer's side instead, knowing full well that not even the brilliance of the moon could grant him succor." Rennala's remembrance also states: "In her youth, Rennala was a prominent champion who charmed the academy with her lunar magic, becoming its master. She also led the Glintstone Knights and established the house of Caria as royalty." Rellana wouldn't be Queen even after before she renounced her lineage because she was younger than Rennala. Also Rennala founded the Carian line through her mastery of the Moon. Rennala was already Queen when this happened and more importantly she approved of it which she wouldn't do if the Carians and the Golden Order were enemies. Therefore Rellana joined Messmer after the alliance of the Erdtree and the Carians. The birthright she had to give up was simply her status as a member of the royal family. It is stated in the Fire Knight items that they were children of nobles who were disavowed by their families after they joined Messmer. Messmer still could be a lot older, but his relationship with Rellana is no proof of that.

Yeah, Marika becoming a god predates most of the Events we knew from her reign starting from Godfreys Conquests. Putting the crusade before that makes no sense.

I mean an easy form of reasoning for that would be that the hornsent and omen are the same things their spells and horns are almost identical the only difference is that omens look disgusting and unkempt but that could just as easily be because they lived sewers.

guys, the grandam shook her fist at Marika & said "curse you perry the platypus" i think you guys are reading too far into that as the origin of the omen

you will always find dudes who are out of place and things don't make sense in this game

@@aizensama21 wow, really useful contribution. Glad you watched a video about the game and chose to comment on it to share the hard-earned perspective that "things don't make sense in this game" 🙄

That's absolutely true. I don't think the video contradicts this at any point though ? They definitely are implied to be brother and sisters. Melina's birth is mentioned at 11:00 in this timeline, with the same parents as Messmer. Thanks for the comment.

Impaler's catacombs... A bunch of giants impaled on spears at the mountaintops... Gladiatorial arenas where lions (symbolic of Godfrey & Serosh) fight gladiators dressed in a snake motif representing a "traitor" (Messmer's cover story for his secret orders from Marika). Mt. Gelmir having a relief carving in the throne room behind the throne with a caduceus symbol, (aka two spiraling winged snakes). The depraved perfumer's apron having a caduceus symbol, with red snakes (the same color as Messmer's). Mt. Gelmir & the area in the DLC unlocked by the "oh mother" gesture both having giant shed snake skins. Then there is the wild speculation. The IRL mythological inspiration for "Eiglay" is a Baltic myth about a woman named Eglé who marries the King of Snakes & turns herself & her children into TREES after her snake husband is betrayed & murdered by her relatives. The Mt. Gelmir snake skin in the temple of "Eiglay" is guarded by a Godskin, servant of the gloam eyed queen, an empyrean who wielded destined death. Then Messmer's kindling specifically referencing his "younger sister" which is obviously Melina, who is also "kindling", also keeps her left eye closed, & who showed up riding a spectral steed from the shadowlands. Then in the one ending she shows up in, she has her left eye open and its the color of twilight (aka "gloam"), and she promises to bring you "destined death". So there is one giant white snake shedding near Messmer in the shadowlands, another giant white snake shedding near symbology reminiscent of Messmer guarded by a Godskin which may be associated with Messmer's younger sister & fellow "kindling", and there is the DLC trailer where Marika is shown pulling a rune arc out of what looks like the eyelid of a giant white snake while the narrator is talking about "a seduction & betrayal from which gold arose". (And the golden order was formed when the rune of death, previously possessed by the empyrean gloam eyed queen, was removed from the elden ring.) There is a serious possibility that the gloam eyed queen was a giant snake and/or snake person that happened to be an empyrean, that the gloam eyed queen was the empyrean that the horn sent were trying to make a god, and that Marika/Radagon pre-split seduced them & were supposed to be their consort. Then at the last moment, Marika/Radagon betrays them, Maliketh kills them, & Marika ascends to godhood instead with Horah Loux / Godfrey as her consort. With Messmer & Melina being technically children of the Radagon half & the Gloam-eyed queen but presented as the children of Marika half & Godfrey. (Which would also explain why the empyrean grandam calls Marika a "strumpet" (aka a prostitute) since she would have been two timing the gloam-eyed queen & Godfrey.)

@@GoulaLegamer There isnt much in the base game, but the lore in the dlc says a few things, like how Messmer and Gaius were both like older brothers to Radahn, well in Messmer's case literally, but it shows that Messmer helped Radahn grow up, so he definitely spent time in the lands between because Radahn was never in the shadow realm, well not until the incident of course

SmoughTown has a pretty good video on Messmer if you want to check it out. But basically Messmer knew Radahn personally, knows what a Tarnished is, the furnace golems use Fire Giant imagery so they were probably constructed after the

It’s my understanding that when Marika veiled the Land of Shadow during/after Messmer’s crusade, she also veiled everyone’s memories about everything to do with the Land of Shadow. Messmer, the hornsent, Metyr, and everyone in the Land of Shadow at the time of the veiling were wiped from everyone’s memories. That’s why characters who should have known the people stuck in the Land of Shadow have no mention of those people. At least that’s what I got from the DLC and the interviews about it with Miyazaki

The Elden Beast had to be there during the Ancient Dragons' time, because the Elden Beast is the living incarnation of the Elden Ring, and before the Elden Ring there wasn't life at all on the planet except for Metyr and the Fingers.. The Greater Will is responsible for the creation of life, remember? And the Greater Will sent down the golden comet bearing the Elden Beast/Ring, which led to the creation of life on the planet, which also spawned the Dragons themselves.

​@cammyshill3099 sound like golden order propaganda to me

@@eligibledark0036 No, it seems like what the game tells you. The thing about the Greater Will having created life coming respectively from a Frenzy Flame cultist and a heretical Carian sorcerer, neither of which love the Golden Order at all.

@@cammyshill3099 The game certainly doesn't "tell" that. For one, it's not a "planet" at all; these are dead people in one of the Japanese conceptions of the afterlife. The "creation of life" doesn't apply to this like it's some sci-fi; they're dead people and their journey into the afterlife is represented with the well-established Japanese "fog" and sailing across an ocean. From mortal life, they die, and go here (and back). The stuff about the Greater Will is religious talk inside the Lands Between; there's no verifiable activity or communication there. It's just a god concept, as introduced in the base game with the discussion of whether the fingers have actually communicated, and reinforced in the DLC. They leaned on the skepticism about it hard enough to make the point. The space whale thing was supposed to blow your mind and make you toss out the whole theology; it's some outsider just like Astel, used for someone's own ends to reshape the realm.

Marika's statue in Messmer's room shows 1 Marriage armband (Godfrey), all the others shows 2 (After Raddagon Marriage) Godrrick rune: The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage. Messmer's best Friends the Fire Knights are nobles from Erdtree house, so that AFTER Giant wars, and obviously Godfrey was already Elden Lord and took Serosh to calm his war ambition to rule as King. Messmer's Troops knows the stomp from Godfrey and Crucible Knight's also are devoted to the Crucible, so those troops are from the time Godfrey was Elden Lord and was Ruling the Kingdom. Messmer was well known after Radahn's young days, so the Crusade DIdn't start until that, Rellana and followers left the Kingdom and went with Erdtree troops for Messmer's Crusade so Radagon already was Married with Rennala and Liurnian wars already finished. So the Crusade Happened a long long time after Marika's and Godfrey's marriage, Godwynn was already been there for a long time.

I think Mohg was definitely sane once before because someone like Ansbach who seems to be very honorable and noble wouldn’t follow a leader like that and we never see any pure blood knights other than him so I’m assuming they all left when he was bewitched or they were killed. Kinda weird thinking that Mohg was probably similar to his brother but instead of veiling himself he was open about who he was. Another thing that kinda proves he might not have always been crazy is that we can find Albinaurics in his palace so he was likely very accepting of you no matter who or what you are.

@@rdc4461 I think so too, as the time went by we started to notice how there are no villains in this game (maybe Shabriri or the devouring serpent) all of the characters have a grey morale and background, a lot of people though that Marika was a villain 'cause or her fundamentalism and racism against the offspring of the crucible, but in the DLC we saw that her kind was oppressed, butchered and jailed in pots by the Hornsent to somehow mimic the crucible and she was afraid and traumatized by those horns and quite reasonably resentful. We also figured that there was no hero, Miquella a cherished, loving and apparently the only gentle soul in the lands between was in fact a delusional kid that tried to force a concept of peace by controlling the minds and hearts of men, going as far to plot to assassinate both step-brothers to ensure his ascension to godhood, honestly I fucking love this game and thinks it's lore fascinating and really want to discuss more of it.

Ansbach seemed supportive of his decision to start a dynasty, and recognized that his death was just a part of the risks of ambition. Marika told all her kids to become gods, lords, or get out of the way. It's also just what people did historically during times of upheaval when the succession of power was uncertain: try to start their own thing, their own way. You get a Pureblood Knight's medal from doing Varre's questline, and he's a psychopath. Ansbach is a Pureblood Knight himself, so I don't think he's as squeaky clean as people want to think. He was pretty chill with the idea of starting a dynasty by kidnapping and exploiting a child until it started to go sideways for them (Mohg being "charmed" or otherwise going mad with power/grief that his plan wasn't working). Honestly I think that Mohg just went crazy. We know that Miquella wasn't even "there" and was nonresponsive no matter what Mohg did; if there was nothing but a corpse there, how is Miquella also there to charm him with his husk-body? Then again, bewitching and charming branches are made with Miq's blood as a component, so who knows.. it might have even come about by accident if any of his blood was in that cocoon when it was cut open.

@@rdc4461 dude just because you’re a honorable person doesn’t mean the person you follow is a good person there are very few good people in this story mogh is most likely someone good but that’s that does change the fact he does horrible things

@@Thelastdragon215 uh ok I was just giving my 2 cents

Thank you 🙂