Відео

Alex Byrne attributes to us the view that: the original meaning of “woman” (or “man”) is the biological meaning. The new and additional meaning is the social meaning. And apparently it was acquired as a result of second wave feminism, and LGBT activism. I reject that view. Let’s consider again Sojourner Truth’s “ain’t I a woman” speech, which she delivered in 1851. The pro-slavery status quo, to which she was objecting, denied that she was a woman. But it doesn’t look like they were denying that she was a biological woman, which is (according to Byrne): a human adult female. After all, it was the common view that: 1. Some people own horses, just like some people own humans. This is compatible with affirming the view that Sojourner Truth is human. 2. Some people own adult horses, just like some people own adult humans. This is compatible with affirming the view that’s Sojourner Truth is an adult. 3. Some people own female horses, just like some people own female humans. This is compatible with affirming the view that Sojourner Truth is female. Combine 1, 2, and 3, and we have the view that’s Sojourner Truth is a human adult female. So it doesn’t look like the status quo is denying that she is a biological woman. Well…. They’re denying that she is a woman. But in what sense of the word? The other sense of the word is the social sense: they are denying that she is a social woman. Because when someone is a social woman, they are entitled to be treated in a certain way (for example: with a minimum of respect; to be protected, provided for, instructed) The upshot is that the word “woman“ had a social meaning in the 1850s. That means that the social meaning is not a new meaning. It’s not a consequence of second wave feminism or LGBT activism. It’s always been around, in part because the social subordination of women seems to be a persistent fact across all contexts. When women are socially subordinated, it becomes controversial what counts as a woman. What does someone need to be to be a woman? Similarly, it becomes controversial what counts as a man. What does someone need to be to be a man?

Trans World, Part 2. Let’s alter the thought experiment a little. In this world, we have Involuntary Transitioning Syndrome (ITS). If you have it, your body will automatically start transitioning to the alternate sex. It happens “naturally”. In about a month, you will be fully transitioned. However, there is treatment, a “cure”. It’s simple and cheap. You just get a shot. And if you don’t want to transition, and you get ITS, it’s recommended that you get treatment as soon as possible. Because the effects of transitioning can be difficult to alter-if not irreversible. And we don’t know what causes ITS. It’s relatively uncommon: about 1 in 100 people get it. That means: there’s a few trans people, who have not yet transitioned , who get ITS. And it’s a blessing to them. It’s better to transition naturally than to do it through medical intervention I’m a cisgender man. And one day I wake up and it looks like I’m starting to develop breasts. And it looks like my balls and cock are shrinking. My voice is changing. I have less facial hair. My muscle mass is decreasing. My hormonal environment is changing. It appears to me that I have symptoms of ITS. I go and see a doctor. They confirm my suspicion: I have ITS. How do I respond? Should I get cured, or should I just allow my body to fully transition? Either way, everyone will fully accept me. It won’t make a difference to the opportunities in my life. That’s the wonderful thing about trans world. But I want get cured. I don’t want to transition. Why? Because I have a conception of my body sexed as male. That’s my male gender identity. It consists of the following: 1. I have a picture of my body sexed as male 2. I have a feeling or sense that my body is sexed as male Transitioning conflicts with my conception of myself. It causes me to experience gender dysphoria. This motivates me to get cured.

Trans World. Imagine that I live in a world where trans is normal. Half of the males grow up and eventually transition into women. And half of the females transition into men. And trans people are treated just like everyone else. They have all the same rights, opportunities, and respect. Trans is normal- just as normal as cis. I am cis. But since half of the population is trans, half of my family is trans. Half of my friends are trans. Half of my classmates are trans. Half of my neighbors are trans. Half of my coworkers are trans. And one day I wake up, and I find that I am starting to develop breasts. I can’t believe it. I hope it’s a temporary thing. But day after day, they get bigger. After about two weeks, I have developed big breast. It’s impossible to conceal them anymore with my clothes. How do others respond to this? They think that I am transitioning. And they are puzzled by the fact that I haven’t taken the other steps to transition. Why do I still refer to myself as “James”? Why do I still use male pronouns? Why do I still still wear men’s clothes? Why do I still have facial hair? Why haven’t I started using females hormones? Why haven’t I gotten facial feminizing surgery? So, they find it puzzling. But they treat me well. They just think I’m transitioning at a slow pace. How am I going to respond to my big breasts? Intuitively, I’m not going to like them. Why not? It’s not because people are mistreating me because of them. Everyone accepts me with my big breast. Then why do I dislike them? It’s because: I have a conception of my body sexed as male. That’s my male gender identity. It consists of the following: 1. I have a picture of my body sexed as male 2. I have a feeling or sense that my body is sexed as male My big breasts conflict with my conception of myself. This causes me to experience gender dysphoria. This motivates me to have my breasts removed, because that would relieve my gender dysphoria.

The recent Swedish study on twins (monozygotic and dizygotic), which Alex Byrne refers to, is supposed to provide evidence that gender dysphoria is not caused by genetics. But he fails to mention that the authors suggest that a plausible hypothesis is that gender dysphoria is caused by sex dimorphic brain structures (which form in utero, in response to the hormonal environment). If that’s true, then there’s an innate cause to gender dysphoria. In other word: gender dysphoria is an innate condition. And that’s the claim Byrne wants to deny. He wants to say that it’s socially caused or caused by the environment. Which is why he suggests that therapy should be the treatment, and not transitioning (gender affirming care). He recommends a kind of “conversion therapy” for trans people.

Consider the ancient world, where the common belief is that a fetus develops into a boy or a girl depending on temperature and humidity: hot and dry favors the development of a boy; cold and moist favors the development of a girl. Now, imagine that we make the following alteration to this world. We alter all male fetuses, so that they have complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Consequently, when they are born, they are construed (perceived and treated) as girls, and they grow up that way In other words: all males are (presumptively) girls or women, but no one knows about it. And we do a similar thing to the female fetuses. We alter them, so they have an analogous condition; for example, XX intersex. So, when they are born, they are construed as boys, and they grow up that way. Consequently: all females are (presumptively) boys or men, but no one knows about it. A side effect of our alteration is that: everyone born in this generation is infertile. And people will eventually come to realize this, and wonder why. They might attribute it to the environment or to the gods. The point is: they don’t have a scientific theory of sex development, so they never figure out that all males are (presumptively) girls and women, and all females are (presumptively) boys and men. The question is: is there gender in this world? Are there boys and girls, men and women? The people in this world think there are. And I think that they are right. The argument, in short: If gender is the same thing as sex (boys/men are males: girls/women are females) then there is no gender in this world There is gender in this world Therefore: gender is not the same thing as sex

Consider again Alex Byrne’s claim: the sex of the baby is all that we rely on in determining their gender. I interpret him to be talking about the actual sex of the baby, not the apparent sex. If he’s talking about the apparent sex, then his claim is compatible with the view that: apparent sex determines gender. And that comes close to the social view on gender, which he opposes. So, then, his claim is: the actual sex of the baby is all that we rely on in determining their gender. He also wants to say: if the actual sex is male, we determine them to be boys; otherwise we don’t. And if the actual sex is female, we determine them to be girls; otherwise we don’t. Why does he want to say this? Because he wants to say that trans women are men. Why are they men? Because their actual sex is male: if your actual sex is male, then your gender is a boy/man; otherwise it’s not. But now consider the baby with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. Their actual sex is male. But we don’t determine their gender to be a boy. We determine it to be a girl. Why? Because their apparent sex is female. Therefore: it’s false that the actual sex of the baby is all that we rely on in determining their gender.

The Cocker Spaniel Argument. Alex Byrne’s theory of gender is like his theory of specie. Gender is just a matter of specific biology (in humans: ovaries and testes). Specie is just a matter of specific biology (for example: chromosomal profile). Since the theories are the same, we should treat gender transitioning, just like specie transitioning. But it’s very counter-intuitive to treat them the same. This calls into question whether gender is just like specie. That is: it calls into question whether gender is just a matter of reproductive biology. It calls into question Byrne’s theory of gender

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Teacher here and I strongly back Epstein and what he says. The only issue is that this man backs competency tests for teens to become adults. How will we administer them? How often? How difficult will the tests be? And how will you register for the test? Will you need parental consent?

I woke up listening to you two. My dream was of preparing to take some psychedelic drugs.

Speaking of memory, as a senior citizen, I psychoanalyzed myself from my abundant childhood memories. Why can't any adult access all their old memories? And I resolved myself and became the woman I always imagined myself to become. It was like a miracle!

Alex Byrne holds two positions: 1. Women are adult human females (Byrne’s theory of gender) 2. Trans women (at least some of them) should be treated as women (Byrne’s normative commitment) He thinks that these two positions are compatible. I say that they’re not. His theory of gender works against his normative commitment. In fact, it’s an enemy of it. Roughly, the argument is the following. If trans women aren’t women (which follows from Byrne’s theory of gender), if we treat them as women, we are indulging in their delusion (delusional belief and delusional behavior). Normally: when someone is under a delusion, we shouldn’t indulge in their delusion. We should try to disabuse them of their delusional belief. We should try to inhibit their delusional behavior. If that’s true normally, then it looks like it should be true in the trans case. In other words, we shouldn’t treat them like women. It might be easier to see this, if we consider an analogous case: specie transitioning. Bob believes that he is a cocker spaniel. And he changes his appearance (as much as he can without medical professional help) so he looks like a cocker spaniel. He wears a furry costume, for example. And he changes his behavior so he acts like a cocker spaniel. He’s walking around on four legs, for example. And he barks a lot. And he pees and poops out in public. But he wants more. He wants to change his face so it looks like a cocker spaniel’s face. He wants a snout, for example. He wants the canine teeth and tongue. He wants to alter his body chemistry so he acts more like a dog. He wants to get rid of his capacity to understand and speak language. Now: how should we respond to Bob? He wants us to treat him like a cocker spaniel. Should we? Obviously not. Why? Because we would be indulging in his delusion. Species transitioning is not relevantly different from gender transitioning, according to Byrne’s theory of gender and theory of specie. It’s all a matter of what your biology is. You gotta have the right biology.

In this interview, Alex Byrne compares trans people to bald people, idiots, overweight people, and ugly people. In other words: he compares them to those who are obviously flawed. And he says: the polite thing to do is to not draw attention to their flaws. How does that apply to trans people? If you encounter a trans woman, don’t use the male pronoun. That draws attention to the flaw that the trans woman is actually a man. Similarly, if you encounter a trans man, don’t use the female pronoun. That draws attention to the flaw that the trans man is actually a woman. Yet he is apparently perplexed at how his theory of gender is controversial. #clueless

Astonishing that this interview/dialogue has only 397 view/10 likes (including mine) as of Dec 2024. This is just a wonderful, profound, intelligent and compassionate conversation. Well worth listening to again and sharing.

Cool interview, thanks for posting :)

Interesting. I am also studying the love chemical and its role on perception in abstract art.

Please be mindful of the background you show in the podcast.

Very good interview questions

Grato

If Jung is too much, than what about: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Evolution_(book) from Henri Bergson?

I have a theory that the brain can be decompartmentalized. That the amygdala can be turned down and the anterior cingulate cortex amplified, so that reasoning becomes more prominent than reactivity. So that science will absorb religious propensities and political disputation. One brain unified in one body, then broad collaboration among the species, a human network.

Fantastic conversation. Subscribed, and saved many of the interviews for later. Thank you!

little if any mental illness in russia

1:12:54 changing self-perception over the body corrections do not mean changing it to actual identity, because we don't know whether this identity was developed naturally whether over inducement.

being male = being able to produce small gametes, *in his reproductive period.* Let's not take other artificial situations (compare it with chemistry, chemical elements under necessary conditions can transform to other, or other type of internal structure, take carbon or diamond).

Where would getting pregnant and having babies come into this convoluted discussion about womanhood. A woman will be a woman anywhere due to her reproductive organs. Been around the world and all women have that in common. Comparison using a career chosen by an actress is ridiculous. Not listening to another word of this mumbo jumbo.

I wish someone could explain why I am a homosexual. I’m married to a man and we are actually very conservative but gay we both want a traditional family oriented life but with us both being men and quite happy and have less drama than heterosexual couples

Amazing interview. Thank you.

Just happens naturally. Science is wonderful, don't think about it too hard. Now, give me millions for my studies! (C) Lee Cronin, probably

The you know like Podcast.

extraordinary talk, thankyou both

Hey I can give you the thoery of everything.

Thank you Adam for this interview. Four years ago I completed the "What is a Mind" course with Mark. Since then I have continued to suck on the "Jelly bean" and sip from The Hidden Spring. At seventy, I can confirm that at least one professor can indeed teach an old dog new tricks. You guys know Real magic!

You should get dan romer on as his theories and "lifespan wisdom model" his seem to make more sense

But i heard online someone say the brain doesn't finish maturing at 25! And anyone under 18 is a child! Lol

Hello. I just listened to you on Mikhaila Peterson’s podcast. And I think you may find my unique situation interesting. I am a 34 year old woman and I received an Adrenal Gland Transplant (along with a kidney, and a pancreas) last November. All I know about the donor is he was a young (under 30 years old) healthy male. I have been having odd side effects ever since. Hormonally speaking. I can’t get any real answer from my care team, as this was an experimental procedure. So my adrenal gland is fully functioning. I no longer have Addison’s Disease. But I thought you just might want to chat.

Amazing

an evolutionary "purpose" for consciousness could be a mix of self preservation and abstract thought about oneself. a reason could be to store food, and categorize (memory) of food sources, foods to avoid, water sources. to remember them and categorize them using abstract thought, and to consider storing them for future use (like a squirrel). all these basic "thoughts" help with survival and are based on an abstract (future) concept of "the self". if you couple that with basic "awareness" of ones' sensory inputs (pain, pleasure, warmth, sight, sound ect) you have all the ingredients of what we call "consciousness" . also the buddhist "5 aggregates" shows there is no consciousness, just impermanent/temporal sense stimulus and mental activity.

Sounds like waffle to me. Too many analogies and abstractions.

The race argument is real good.

The confusion between the words sex and gender is rather specific to the English language, where the word sex also means intercourse. I am from Sweden, and in Swedish, we don't have this confusion because we have different words for intercourse and biological sex. In academia, one distinguishes between sex, which one's reproductive role, and gender, which is a social construct that is built upon one's sex. It basically means gender stereotype. Sex can exist without gender because it is an objective reality. Gender, on the other hand, can not exist without sex. It is based on it. Clear and simple, when one is not English-speaking. 😊

The problem we are facing now is not that there are different understandings of sex and gender in philosophy, but the rampant intolerance against the views that differs from one's own. What happened to discussions? Where does this militant cancel culture come from? It is starting to resemble dictatorship a la Iran or communist Russia.

Thanks for this interview! Very interesting

Thank you, Adam and Mark. Wonderful interview.

I stumbled upon this after my sister suddenly developed psychosis im looking for answers why a very young seems healthy woman suddenly experienced that

wonderful, thank you

Thank you so much, brilliant, as expected

Thank you both very much for sharing your time and work, Mark, and Adam, watching from 2024, and still very relevant for today's conversations, peace

Absolutely wonderful explanation by Mark, where he references Thomas Nagel's discription of what it is like to be.

Thank both, Mark and Adam for sharing your time and work, great conversation, had to revise the comment, as I'm now watching the podcast from 2 years ago, peace