Відео

Excellent video. It’s a shame Maddow clearly hasn’t read any Tolkien despite being very well-read & having been a Rhodes scholar at Oxford. But there are the unfortunate folks who haven’t read him. (It’s never too late to start, Rachel, you’ll probably love the Ainulindalë, since, like Tolkien, you’re a Catholic.) To me it’s a bigger surprise that no one on her usually talented research team could catch that right wingers are really misinterpreting Tolkien’s politics (and not catch Maddow’s awful error about Narya, which has zero to do with the word Aryan). Tolkien is on record expressing his contempt for the Nazis and that “ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler.” When they asked for proof of his Aryan heritage to permit a German-language translation of The Hobbit, he suggested responding: “But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people.” And of South Africa, the country of his birth, he is likewise on record saying “But I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones.” We all know Tolkien was a conservative Catholic. And sure, the LotR has a monarchist story line as part of the story, but it’s also about the little underdogs, not the king, saving the world. And the Shire gets by without a king, yes with a few aristocratic families, but also an elected Mayor. And anyone who thinks Tolkien was a white supremacist hasn’t read very deeply. Think of Samwise’s sympathetic thoughts for the dead soldier from Harad. Think of Tolkien’s ethical struggles later in life about the redeemability of the Orcs. Think of the Drúedain (the ancestors of the Woses in the LotR who assisted the Rohirrim with a quick road to Gondor). They came to Beleriand in tandem with one of the 3 peoples of the Edain, the Haladin, and lived side-by-side with them. And they went to Númenor with the Edain who survived the wreck of Beleriand. They are commonly pictured as not “white” (though the textual support for that is scant). Think of the “Swarthy Men,” the Easterlings who came late into Beleriand under the influence of Morgoth. Half of them rebelled against Morgoth and fought with the Eldar & the Edain. And amongst the Edain, the House of Hador was pretty much blond & lily-white, but the House of Bëor had skin color ranging “from fair to swarthy” (though Tolkien used that word “swarthy” for a range of colors too). Here’s a very good example of Tolkien not being of the far-right. In an interview, he was asked what his writings were about. He said the inevitability of death, and to cap the point pulled an on-topic quotation out of his pocket and read it aloud. And it was a quotation from . . . Simone de Beauvoir, one of the premier feminist authors in history and a conspicuous leftist. Link: x.com/TolkienWonder/status/1559400368131305472

I'd love to to love this show, but so far I couldn't. I hope season 2 is better, a fool's hope.

Thank you. I’m glad a found a channel that will be honest, but is logical and sane (and very knowledgeable) about the existence of the lore (relatively speaking, it’s an outline). Even if they did have all the rights, it would need a lot of filling in. Unlike the First and Third Age stories.

I'd love for it to be good... but I have 0 hope. The trailer did not assuage my fears...

That is enough for a film when they include the Thorongir stories of a young King Ellessar who meets the wiuzzard. The history of the Mirkwood elves, Their origin stories. Gollums origin story. Its enough for one film enough for a feature len

They do not need the Sil or unfinished tales of the history of Middle Earth.

Lotr and the Hobbit is enough

Maddow is often a guest on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. Colbert is such a fan of LotR that he has a near-encyclopedic knowledge of Tolkien's writings. I have no doubt he will set her straight when next she appears on his show

Correlation is not causation.

Posthumous guilt by association with people who didn’t exist when Tolkien died - that seems like a reasonable way to judge an author’s works, don’t you think?

"Why don’t they teach the young some elementary metres and set them writing verse - doggerel if you like! And if the young like facts (as they should), why not teach them some of the facts of linguistic history in general and English in particular? Answer is, I suppose, because they don’t know ’em, and that is ‘philology’ and wicked. Beware! All leftists are anti-philology!" Letter 194a

Far right like oxygen too, breathing is a political act!

i feel like if someone were to be inspired politically by lotr they would be a monarchist of some sort. which i dont think alot of people who read him are. btw when it comes to black Aragorn (though i never hear about this drama) wouldn't that lead to alot of implications like the numanoreans are black and arent like most of the men in middle earth are related to the numanoreans (atleast i think). also that would make the "racist" description of the harad in 2 towers kind of strange and not make sense. when it comes to the woman lead honestly i find a lot of the modern movies and shows are ruining woman leads. i feel like alot of not too great movies came out with female leads and now everyone just hates woman leads. Honestly a Rohirrim female warrior from long ago might actually be pretty tolkien if she is the ancestor of Eowyn. kind of like a took thing for bilbo in the hobbit. i think that would be neat. nice video non the less 👍. God bless!

The Lord of the rings is literally anti fascist literature

Added to the irony of this injection of politics into a literary classic like LOTR is the fact that Tolkien absolutely loathed and bemoaned overt political allegories while still alive. Enjoyed the vid! Cheers

I don’t think it’s possible to fully understand Tolkien without being a devout catholic. So Rachel Maddow is naturally going to be repulsed by the story unfortunately.

I was raised in the church and knew several people that turned it into far right literature. Some of the things they extrapolated made sense some of them didn't. Either way I like the books a lot.

Just want to add, LOTR has great potential to bring both political sides together by focusing on some of the non-political aspects of the films and books we do all agree on. Friendship, bravery, support, community, empathy, explosions ARE cool, etc. I always thought it could be a bridge to talk to my very Christian parents.

Lord of the rings is a story about preserving things, preserving the goodness and beauty, etc. "Right wing" politics in general are conservative, trying to lower the pace of change as a whole. So it's natural that someone with more conservative views would like Tolkien. However, to call it "extremist" or "far right" is just a result of the state of both parties - being somewhat conservative on a scale of borderline extremist liberal views, by definition makes you relatively "far right".

When you fight in WWI and your sons either fight or work to rescue Jews in Nazified Europe in WW2, you've been shot at by far right. That's the Tolkien story. I love Rachel Maddow, but her interpretation of the word Narya is as baseless and ill-informed as saying the word "history" is sexist because it begins with "his".

The Tolkien family should sue them for Intellectual Property theft.

Merci pour cette analyse!

In the quote you take from Nature of Middle-earth "The Númenóreans were not of uniform racial descent", you seem to be taking 'racial descent' and using that in terms of black and white. That is not how it is being used in the essay. The 'races' referred to are the Edain in particular the Hadorians/Marachians and the Beorians. For another description of the Dunedain quote: "...and Frodo saw that they were goodly men, pale-skinned, dark of hair, with grey eyes and faces sad and proud." Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit The only black Men met in LotR are those out of Far Harad: ""and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues" Battle of the Pelennor Fields

They don't have access to much source material at all. Just a couple pages here and there out of the more expository chapters in LotR and a few segments from the appendices at the end of Return of the King. Hence, they're essentially creating a billion dollar fanfic with a >90% wholly new/different story.

"Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story (....) I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama." (J. R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131)

Tevildo prince of cata. The children of Hurkn is too sad. And Turin is a prick. What I think is next after lotr and the silmarillion is unfinished tales

I allready have all of them. Beren and Luthien, Children of Hurin and fall of Gondolin

😅 so if you could remove a counter on the 2nd turn phase back to the 1st phase ... You can pick new targets ? And it last 😂 longer 🎉

Can you give me examples of books that are similar to the Silmarillion. i.e. Books that present the history of a certain world, with many different stories within them.

Hi, are these versions sewn or glue bindings? Acid free paper or not? Cloth or paper bounded boards?

Merci! C'est une bonne suggestion pour mon neveu. Je vais chercher ce coffret en français. 📚💜

Thanks for this! I was just going back over the set and I had the same question.

I'd watch a Glorfindel slays a balrog movie or Feanor and the kinslaying but I don't really think Gollum is that interesting of a character to spend time on. Even Tolkien just uses one sentence on the hunt for him. I don't like Gollum's talking, I don't like the precious meme. I just want the interesting bits of the franchise.

My main issue with the show is that it really doesn’t have the Silmarillion content that covers this period of time, because as you said they don’t have the rights to those stories. That lack of source material then begs the question why would you make a show about a story you don’t have the rights to. I feel like they could have made another interpretation of LOTR or several other things that weren’t covered already and could have been straight conjecture. If they were going to make something about this particular time period though maybe they should have bought the rights to those stories so they could be done correctly.

"I looked everywhere for the creature Gollum. But the enemy found him first" So he did actually look. Maybe the enemy found him first but he found him second. It still could fit

There’s a scene at the start where Golum is being tortured in Mordor and reveals Baggins shire I suspect that could be in the film/maybe they suspect Bilbos ring is the one ring and want to find golum first before he spouts it in Mordor

I think if they make a "whodunit" it could work. I'm thinking a Conan Doyle approach, with Gandalf playing Sherlock (the thinker) and Aragorn being Watson (the doer), with Gollum being more or less a MacGuffin. Sauron would be a shadowy Moriarty lurking in the background.

Have him in my Aragorn the Uniter deck. With so many ways to give haste he’s is usually a win-con for me if he’s in my hand.

Your off center

Really? It hasn’t been power crept by outlaws of thunder junction? I know mtg does that very fast

Unrelated but I would honestly love a slower paced LOTR reboot/series that's much more faithful to the books

Here. - We can glean a little more about the hunt for Gollum from Appendix B, "The Tale of Years". 2944: Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief' of the Ring. 2951: Sauron declares himself openly... Gollum turns towards Mordor... Elrond reveals to 'Estel' his true name and ancestry, and delivers to him the shards of Narsil. Arwen, newly returned from Lórien, meets Aragorn in the woods of Imladris. Aragorn goes out into the Wild. 2977: Bain son of Bard becomes king of Dale. 2980: About this time Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob. - 3001: The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn. 3007: Brand son of Bain becomes king in Dale. Death of Gilraen, Aragorn's mother. 3009: Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron. 3017: Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood. If the film is going to conform to the continuity of the Peter Jackson films then the above timeline would likely be significantly compressed, with the bulk of it taking place in just a few, short years (at most). FOTR-EE gives the year of Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday as 3000 (Third Age), with the Council of Elrond seemingly taking place on 25 October, 3001. This also means that the Quest of Erebor took place in the year 2940 instead of 2941, and places Aragorn's year of birth at either 2914 or 2915 (depending on whether he was 87 or 88 when the Ring was unmade).

There is so much it can show as far as all the things that were going on during the 500 years of hun having the ring. His story can be a backdrop that falls away naturally on its own and leads into things like War Of The Rohirim and rise and fall of a Angmar etc.

A pretty good overview! I'm assuming you're starting off broad and narrowing in later? I'm hopin' your channel picks up subscribers so it's worth your time! I like it!

I disagree on the 'pale' and 'dark' discussion. To me, they actually seem like a simple contradiction in Tolkien's writing. The only way I could reconcile them is to try and claim that he was RELATIVELY so, to the describing person - but would Gandalf use a descriptive term to Frodo that wouldn't be within Frodo's own knowledge and conception? Seems really odd to me. 'Gray', like 'pale' seems impossible to me as a description with someone as dark-skinned as in the Magic cards. I think that the biggest consideration is that Tolkien's own background, as a white man in England, writing based upon early medieval Anglo-Norse mythology is such that he probably would called out fairly clearly if major characters were so dark-skinned. Does that matter in a depiction? I dunno - but I am also unsure if a clear contradiction would matter to any greater extent; just as Shakespeare gets reimagined to other eras, it's not unreasonable to take artistic license for whatever reasons.

I dunno... it sounds like you're trying real hard to justify a bad show. I mean... if ya like it that's fine. But your calls for 'wait and see' don't hold much water after already having a season. If you'd said that before season 1 I would have completely agreed. I was excited and argued with friends who said it was a dumpster fire before they'd even seen it... and even after I, to be blunt, sounded kinda like you did as I couldn't admit how horrific it was for a while. Disappointed and clawing for scraps. But then reality sunk in and...

I'm going to be 100% honest. (Hear me out... ) When I first saw the art, and all the while of using the cards, I had a strong distaste for their choice. You're first five minutes told me why. I didn't really consider it, but I suppose it was almost completely because he wasn't depicted as literal Viggo Mortensen. You are completely correct. My entire conceptualization of Aragorn had been in the context of his depiction in Peter Jackson's movies. I remember, even in my first reading of the books, they were already tainted by early depictions and trailers of the movies before I had even seen the movies. I'm going to re-read the trilogy later this summer, and see what I can do to re-imagine him in a differing light. I think. in hindsight, their choice to depict him this way was almost completely an attempt to escape the Comparison to Viggo. I had initially thought it to be an attempt to pander and court controversy to either drum up conversation and discussion, or even just to try to attract new bodies into the game... I thought that Hasbro and Wizards assumed "We already have the Magic nerds... Were gonna get the LotR nerds just because it says "Sauron" on a card.... Let's try to attract some people who are only here because 'Black Aragorn' got printed." Now... While I do not fully discount the probability that it factored in in some small amount.... I think the majority of the issue they were facing was avoiding the comparison. They wanted to drive home a novel image and interpretation of his character and give their onw depiction something that makes it stand out. That said... It still feels bad. I am, in this moment, much less hostile to the change given the context that your video has added. That said... If we all knew it was so simple and easy to just hand-wave Aragorn's race... You wouldn't be making this video and I wouldn't be writing this comment. The fact that you have to make this video to seemingly justify the possibility is proof that it's kind of absurd. Don't you think?

So I think the difficulty with the MTG depictions here isn't per se that it's hard to believe that Aragorn could be black; it's that it's hard to believe that (a) Aragorn could be black *consistently with* (b) Elrond and Arwen being white. For that to be true, Aragorn would need to have very little genetically in common with Elros and the original Númenóreans more generally--and in that case, why should he be any longer-lived than the men of Gondor? To be clear, I certainly don't think there'd be a lore problem if Elrond and Arwen WERE black. While their Edain forebears were certainly white, I don't remember anything specifying that Thingol or Melian (and therefore Lúthien) were; and since the MTG Galadriel is dark-skinned herself, so too could have been Indis, Finarfin, Fingolfin, Turgon, and Idril. So maybe the moral is: it's cool that MTG is going for diverse representation here, but it would be much cooler if they were fully consistent about it! (edit: and when I originally posted this comment, it had slipped my mind that of course Arwen is Galadriel's granddaughter! While this doesn't bear on Aragorn's depiction, it does make it all the weirder that she's so pale!)

I can't remember where I read it, and it might be a secondary source, but I distinctly remember that Tolkien had described either Aragorn in particular or Numenoreans in general as looking like southern Europeans - think Spain, Greece, and particularly Italy. This is probably from some apocryphal source such as a letter or something, not published canon.

As a "Black man", i stand back and watch all of you and shake my head. You are all being very cringe about a social constuct. Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as race. If that social constuct is needed to maintain your vision of Aragon, then it begs many questions. Perhaps they should have made him Asian, or look like some cro-magnon to match.