On the Trail of Delusion
On the Trail of Delusion
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On the next ON THE TRAIL OF DELUSION, Ep 5 , Steve Roe
On the next ON THE TRAIL OF DELUSION,( Episode 5 ,)
Author and researcher Steve Roe discusses the life of controversial US Army General Walker, an earlier target of Lee Harvey Oswald.
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Відео

On The Trail of Delusion, Episode 4, Dr Martin J Kelly, Jr
Переглядів 44621 годину тому
On The Trail of Delusion, Episode Four with Dr Martin J Kelly, Jr. www.onthetrailofdelusion.com Music by: Power Music Factory Suspense Background Music No Copyright Channel URL : / powermusicfactory
Episode 3, Gerald "Case Closed" Posner
Переглядів 809Місяць тому
Episode 3, Gerald Posner, "On The Trail Of Delusion" Episode 3 with acclaimed writer Gerald Posner, author of "CASE CLOSED: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK." www.onthetrailofdelusion.com Music by: Power Music Factory Suspense Background Music No Copyright Channel URL : / powermusicfactory
Gerald Posner, On The Trail of Delusion, Trailer
Переглядів 185Місяць тому
Coming Soon to "On The Trail Of Delusion".... acclaimed writer Gerald Posner, author of CASE CLOSED: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK
On The Trail of Delusion, Episode 2, Robert Wagner
Переглядів 3782 місяці тому
On The Trail of Delusion, Episode 2, Robert Wagner Music by: Power Music Factory Channel URL : / powermusicfactory  • [Suspense Music No Cop... Robert Wagner is the author of the book, JFK Assassinated, and has served on the prosecution for a mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald in 2017. I strongly urge people to buy his book. His book is available on Amazon: www.amazon.com/JFK-Assassinated-Courtro...
On The Trail of Delusion Episode 01, V1
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Welcome to the first episode of On the Trail of Delusion, a podcast that separates reality from fiction in the JFK assassination. Our guest is Robert Reynolds who is an expert on the JFK assassination files. You can visit his terrific website at www.jfkarc.info Music by: Power Music Factory Channel URL : / powermusicfactory ua-cam.com/video/sJfgTH39OCA/v-deo.html
Jimmy Earl Burt Interview.
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An interview of Jimmy Earl Burt by Alan Chapman.
Raymond Broshears, NARA 233, JFK 1428
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HSCA Testimony of Raymond Broshears.
NARA 233 JFK 1690, Leander D'Avy,
Переглядів 111Рік тому
HSCA Testimony of Leander D'avy. For more about Leander D'avy, please visit this link. It contains highlights of his testimony: www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-leander-d-avy-see-oswald-with-the-three-tramps For a complete transcript of this interview, please visit my documents page: www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/documents
Oliver Stone Film Flam
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A preview of Fred Litwin's January 2023 book, Oliver Stone's Film-Flam: The Demagogue of Dealey Plaza. Fred Litwin debunks the major allegations in JFK: Destiny Betrayed Oliver Stone’s 2021 documentary series on the JFK assassination. Litwin’s book examines: - The formation of the Warren Commission. - The relationship between JFK and the CIA. - Why Jack Ruby killed Oswald. - How the medical evi...
On the Trail of Delusion Promo
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A promo for my book, On the Trail of Delusion - Jim Garrison: The Great Accuser. www.onthetrailofdelusion.com
Jim Garrison Interviewed on the Mike Wallace Show, September 26, 1967.
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Jim Garrison Interviewed on the Mike Wallace Show, September 26, 1967. You can download a transcript here: www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/jim-garrison-interview-on-the-mike-wallace-show-september-1967
Jack Martin Interview with Jim Garrison, December 14, 1966
Переглядів 1,9 тис.2 роки тому
This is the first time that Jack Martin sat down with Jim Garrison. A transcript will be available shortly. Here is a link to a transcript of this conversation. If you can improve the transcript, please let me know You might hears things that I missed. www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/exclusive-jim-garrison-talks-to-jack-martin
The Stan Bohrman Show with Raymond Broshears July 1968
Переглядів 7082 роки тому
The Reverence Raymond Broshears appears on the Stan Bohrman Show, July 8, 1968. A link will soon be uploaded with a transcript. Broshears claimed to be a roommate from David Ferrie - but don't believe a word he is saying. He was a world-class fabulist. Here is a link to a transcript: www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/exclusive-raymond-broshears-on-the-stan-bohrman-show-july-1968 Other Links abo...
Perry Russo's Third Hypnosis Session
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This is the third hypnosis session with Perry Russo, March 14, 1967. You can read a transcript here: archive.org/details/PerryRusso/Russo, Perry 02/page/n13/mode/2up?q="perry russo" hypnosis www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/a-tape-recording-of-perry-russo-s-third-hypnosis-session You can read Andrew Sciambra's memorandum after interviewing Perry Russo in Baton Rouge, and a link to a recording ...
Perry Russo Talks to WAFB on February 24, 1967
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Perry Russo Talks to WAFB on February 24, 1967
Kerry Thornley Speaks to Jim Garrison's Office
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Kerry Thornley Speaks to Jim Garrison's Office
Arthur Strout speaks to Jim Garrison's Office
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Arthur Strout speaks to Jim Garrison's Office
garrison tape 3
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garrison tape 3
garrison tape 5
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garrison tape 5
garrison tape 4
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garrison tape 4
Jim Garrison Interview with the HSCA, August 3, 1977
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Jim Garrison Interview with the HSCA, August 3, 1977

КОМЕНТАРІ

  • @dumbbo1
    @dumbbo1 5 днів тому

    JFK wasn’t bending over to tie his shoes, as snarky Cyril liked to say. The limo was out of Mr Z’s view when JFK was hit the first time. Mrs Connally always claimed that she said something like “You can’t say the people of Dallas don’t love you”. Perhaps she said it at that exact moment, and JFK was leaning forward to hear or speak with her or the Governor. All perfectly plausible, and completely understandable if none of the three remembered it that way.

  • @TheCShowHostedbyChris
    @TheCShowHostedbyChris 7 днів тому

    Good talk Fred! I didn't know you had a channel. I just subscribed.

    • @hairypolack
      @hairypolack 7 днів тому

      I liked YOUR show with Fred

  • @BrianRoselle
    @BrianRoselle 7 днів тому

    Fred, thanks for putting the video together. I enjoyed listening to your perspective as well as Martin's coming from his many years of research.

  • @stevek2982
    @stevek2982 8 днів тому

    Thank you Fred. Thank you Martin.

  • @NOC1TIME
    @NOC1TIME 8 днів тому

    A note on LHO. Growing up a favorite television show was a series called 'I Led Three Lives. Based on a guy who poses as a communist for the FBI. Lee was very impressionable. No reason this can't be fun

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack 8 днів тому

    June 10, 2024….167 views after 1 day! 😊

  • @calwianka
    @calwianka 8 днів тому

    Great intro trailer, Fred

  • @patrickcollins7407
    @patrickcollins7407 8 днів тому

    Absolutely marvellous .....brings clarity to the head shot and SBT that so many conspiracy theorists need to understand. Martin J Kelly explains these key issues with simplicity and aplomb. I expected nothing less having exchanged views with Professor Kelly for many years. Thanks for sharing Fred Litwin.

  • @TheScottstr
    @TheScottstr 9 днів тому

    Great interview guys.

  • @spankflaps1365
    @spankflaps1365 9 днів тому

    Ironic that Americans are so paranoid about a communist takeover, and the one time a communist went rogue, nobody believed it. This demonstrates they don’t know what communism means.

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack 12 днів тому

    A similar video ua-cam.com/video/LGERTmLA8ss/v-deo.htmlsi=vKLOvpidbnl3fHGE

  • @mattkprovideo
    @mattkprovideo Місяць тому

    May 11,2024, 319 views

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack Місяць тому

    "If you were as interested in MY body as you are in Kennedy's our relationship might last"

  • @scottspencer6899
    @scottspencer6899 Місяць тому

    2 zionists shitting on the people who have correctly pointed out the inconsistencies of the Warren commission. And to top it off they find a way to attack Arab nationalism and the Palestinians who deserve a state of their own. Also its incredible that these 2 clowns do not consider the so called anti semitism that's increasing with the slaughter going on in Gaza. 🇵🇸🌹🌹🌹🌹

  • @scottspencer6899
    @scottspencer6899 Місяць тому

    Everywhere we looked with Oswald we found the fingerprints of the CIA. Senator Robert swiecher.

  • @scottspencer6899
    @scottspencer6899 Місяць тому

    Fred litwin is a disengenous hypocrite. He's supposed to be the head of the free speech freedom of arts. Yet he called for oliver stone to be cancelled from a cultural event in Canada. He made a goofy documentary about Iran and China. He mocked oliver stone for blocking him on Facebook and Twitter and he's blocked me. 😅😅

    • @onthetrailofdelusion
      @onthetrailofdelusion Місяць тому

      My god, you cannot even get your facts straight. I did not make a documentary about Iran and China. I did not call for Oliver Stone to be cancelled. I am not the "head of the free speech freedom of the arts," whatever that means! I do mock Oliver Stone. He deserves it. Here is a link to my blog posts about Oliver Stone: www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/blog/tags/oliver-stone

    • @scottspencer6899
      @scottspencer6899 Місяць тому

      @@onthetrailofdelusion I've seen the videos of you on UA-cam and it's something about free expression in the arts and you're critical of the supposed woke left and the Canadian government for not supporting your film on Iran. Iranium. I also saw your stalker website which includes viscous newspaper articles which call for oliver to be cancelled from an event because of his views on Russia Ukraine. Plus you're kveching to the Isreali newspaper for hosting oliver stone. Jerusalem film festival. I know exactly who you are. Plus you blocked me on Facebook. After you mocked oliver for blocking you. And you did produce a goofy film about China. It's the one that John oliver mocked. 🇵🇸🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹 Viva Palestina.

    • @onthetrailofdelusion
      @onthetrailofdelusion Місяць тому

      @@scottspencer6899 You just can't get your facts correct. I have never made a film on Iran. I never produced a film on China. If you can't even get the facts right, what can I say!

    • @scottspencer6899
      @scottspencer6899 Місяць тому

      @@onthetrailofdelusion I've seen the video of you on UA-cam talking about your documentary about Iran and how upset you are with the Canadian government for not supporting you after the film was criticised by Iran. If you are Fred litwin then you should check the youtube videos that are online. You even mention having a friend from the CIA who attended the film premiere of the Iranium event. If you are so pro freedom and free expression then why did you write an opinion piece for 2 newspapers calling for oliver stone to be cancelled from the events. It's so obvious that's what you wanted to happen. Why else would you list homophobia, antisemitism, pro Hitler, pro Iran.. You were going for a demagogic character assassination and you failed miserably.. Even your beloved apartheid state gave him an award. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

    • @scottspencer6899
      @scottspencer6899 Місяць тому

      @@onthetrailofdelusion Fred litwin president of the free thinking film society discusses his film Iranium. Is that not you on UA-cam. It looks like a gay zionist from Canada.

  • @DavidAHolland
    @DavidAHolland Місяць тому

    Great conversation. Occam's Razor and Hanlon's Razor agree. Oswald acted alone. It's just a hard, bitter pill to swallow for many that one, lone nutburger can altar the course of history. But that's the reality-based conclusion.

    • @stevel9678
      @stevel9678 Місяць тому

      If you had a credible lone nut theory, Occam would imply that we should accept it. But you don't. You have a TWO lone nut theory, Oswald and Ruby. And in that circumstance, William of Ockham himself would sit up in his grave and explain to you that two lone nuts acting independently is less reasonable than a conspiracy.

    • @NOC1TIME
      @NOC1TIME 8 днів тому

      What flavor is that kool aid anyway ? The last word from the HSCA was probable conspiracy in the deaths of both JFK and Dr King. Nothing from the justice department in over six decades.

  • @mtdouthit1291
    @mtdouthit1291 Місяць тому

    The “can’t accept” mainstream talking point lie? Seriously? So us critics know Lee did it but we just “can’t accept” it?? That’s like Christian presuppositionalists saying to atheists “I know you really believe in God, you just can’t accept it!” That is saying you know what’s inside a person’s head! If that is seriously the route you want to go, then there’s no point in discussion.

    • @Caeruleo
      @Caeruleo Місяць тому

      "The “can’t accept” mainstream talking point lie? Seriously? So us critics know Lee did it but we just “can’t accept” it??" I also didn't hear any statement even remotely similar to that in this video either. Again, if I'm wrong, exactly how many minutes into the video is this statement made? Thanks.

    • @mattkprovideo
      @mattkprovideo Місяць тому

      Wow matt you work fast. I may post yet another version tomorrow- are you going to comment on that too?

  • @pedicabdiaries2460
    @pedicabdiaries2460 Місяць тому

    May 8. 2024, 87 views

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack Місяць тому

    This looks like a great show!

  • @hairypolack1372
    @hairypolack1372 Місяць тому

    I look forward to hearing your talk with Gerald Posner!

  • @rogerscottcathey
    @rogerscottcathey Місяць тому

    29:17 If one is assisting a tracheostomy by holding a retractor while positioned at the crown of the head, the head would have to be tilted to one side, probably to JFK's left. One wouldn't try to pull the incision back over the chin for crying out loud. Of course McClelland would be able to see the area behind the right ear. As far as the table tilt is concerned, if they knew there was a head wound of any kind, which Perry stated he was so aware, tilting the table head down is the exact opposite of what is done for head injury. I don't by that trendelenburg position story one bit. It was a regular gurney and am not sure they can raise or lower either end. It might make sense doing that to raise arterial blood pressure, as they did note he had zero blood pressure. In either case, it wouldn't obscure McClelland's ability to observe the rear head wound. Real people bend and move, they're not like your cartoon diagram which is way too tilted.

  • @mtdouthit1291
    @mtdouthit1291 Місяць тому

    SBT at 24:38 and 1:08:27

  • @rogerscottcathey
    @rogerscottcathey Місяць тому

    "Cowlick area"? JFK's cowlick was on the left rear quadrant, not the right rear. Right?

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack 2 місяці тому

    April 17,2024 791 views

  • @ernthemick111
    @ernthemick111 2 місяці тому

    It always fascinates me the grasp of the minutia that some people have and exhibit in speaking on the assassination. I don’t so much find that true of the newest members of the CT community. They, at least the ones I have occasional interactions with, seem rather entirely detached from any reasonable grounding. The arguments I hear aren’t on the par of “The Spy Who Came In From the Cold” but closer to Fox News, QAnon and Info Wars lunacy. I mean I’ve read Jim Marrs and Josiah Thompson. I think they’re wrong, but their arguments are grounded in reality. And I doubt they would have thought I was in the employ of the CIA disseminating misinformation because I disagreed with them, or would segued in explaining how NASA faked the moon landing. The CT community has always had a lunatic fringe, I think that fringe has become the core. Thank you gents, very interesting.

  • @billem3085
    @billem3085 2 місяці тому

    OK. The 313 bullet came from behind. It would of struck Connley in the neck or head/ Look with your own eyes the trajectory of the bullet from the TBSD to JFK would have to strike JC, but it doesn't.

    • @Caeruleo
      @Caeruleo Місяць тому

      "OK. The 313 bullet came from behind. It would of struck Connley in the neck or head/ Look with your own eyes the trajectory of the bullet from the TBSD to JFK would have to strike JC, but it doesn't." Huh? By the time of frame 313 Connally is laying back against Nellie. He's nowhere even remotely close to being in the path of a bullet striking JFK's head in that frame.

  • @spankflaps1365
    @spankflaps1365 2 місяці тому

    Strange that people can’t compute FMJ ammo going through 2 people, when that’s what it’s supposed to do. For a more recent example, Alec Baldwin’s “Rust” shooting went through 2 people, and that was a handgun.

    • @austintxweddingvideo4954
      @austintxweddingvideo4954 2 місяці тому

      You are correct. And when conspiracy theorists say "No one has duplicated the world class shooting job they say Oswald did" ( as in One bullet/ 5 wounds) Who ever said that Oswald did it (the 5 wounds) ON PURPOSE!?!? Oswald was aiming at Kennedy, the wounds made after the bullet left Kennedys neck were just a tragic accident.

  • @austintxweddingvideo4954
    @austintxweddingvideo4954 2 місяці тому

    April 12, 2024, 23 views

  • @firstlast2636
    @firstlast2636 2 місяці тому

    How did he say Oswald did it without the Single Bullet Theory being true?

    • @randyharris3175
      @randyharris3175 2 місяці тому

      That doesn't make amy sense.

    • @austintxweddingvideo4954
      @austintxweddingvideo4954 2 місяці тому

      He is much more knowledgable on the subject than you and I. But I don't fully understand his point. I think he is saying the cracks/fissures on the skull wounds indicate a different bullet direction. Bear in mind that equally qualified Doctors look at the same medical evidence and see evidence of a front shot, while other equally qualified doctors see evidence of a rear shot.

    • @firstlast2636
      @firstlast2636 2 місяці тому

      @@austintxweddingvideo4954 I am also a JFK medical evidence lover. The only lone nut non-sbt thing I can imagine is Kennedy being hit around z180

    • @chriscald9426
      @chriscald9426 22 дні тому

      ​@@randyharris3175Pvt_Hudson_

    • @dumbbo1
      @dumbbo1 5 днів тому

      @@firstlast2636The shell casings left at the scene, unless Oswald for whatever reason grabbed the “4th bullet” casing, inserted a cartridge into the rifle I know that the integral magazines of military bolt guns carried 5 rounds typically back then, with a possible 6th in the chamber ready to go. Perhaps someone knowledgeable of the reported condition of the rifle found at the SBD can help here: were there any unfired rounds left in it, and if so how many?

  • @randyharris3175
    @randyharris3175 2 місяці тому

    The patsy explanation is not even understood in the proper context. Oswald preceded the statement saying. They're taking me in becsuse I lived in the Soviet Union Im just a patsy. Conspiracy theorists don't understand this or purposedly avoid it.

    • @firstlast2636
      @firstlast2636 2 місяці тому

      The "cause" of something can be a subjective political matter

    • @randyharris3175
      @randyharris3175 2 місяці тому

      How can you dispute the SBT and be a lone nut? I thought he read Reclaming History Bugliosi clearly explains this. It seems to me he is just throwing a bone to the Ct's. There is no evidence the bullet reflected out of the car.

  • @mtdouthit1291
    @mtdouthit1291 2 місяці тому

    Apologists: “There’s nothing to see in the remaining sealed files!” In reality… David Morales-61 pages still classified William King Harvey-123 pages still classified Anne Goodpasture-286 pages still classified E. Howard Hunt-332 pages still classified David Atlee Phillips-606 pages still classified Yuri Nosenko-2,224 pages still classified George Joannides-50 files still classified George H. W. Bush-UNKNOWN number of files and pages still classified

    • @onthetrailofdelusion
      @onthetrailofdelusion 2 місяці тому

      Here is Robert Reynold's reply to Mr. Douthit: www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/a-response-to-matt-douthit

    • @mtdouthit1291
      @mtdouthit1291 2 місяці тому

      Great, thanks for the link. He confirms most of what I said.

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack 2 місяці тому

    March 22, 2024, 4:00pm. 32 views

  • @austintxweddingvideo4954
    @austintxweddingvideo4954 2 місяці тому

    This presents a very different point of view than many youtube shows about government conspiracies. I just subscribed so that I can see future episodes.

  • @scottspencer6899
    @scottspencer6899 7 місяців тому

    Blakey is a goofball who was deceived by the CIA. He also thinks the mob killed jfk whilst he attacks other people who critisisize the Warren commission.

  • @ronwaggoner6899
    @ronwaggoner6899 Рік тому

    The Jim Garrison playbook - Get a "witness" to come to their jurisdiction, tell them if they don't say what they expect you to say you will be charged with perjury!! Kerry got smart! He smell the rat - Andrew Sciambra is sitting on Garrison's lap in hell paying for what they did to Clay Shaw!!

  • @billbrown8166
    @billbrown8166 Рік тому

    Thanks Fred.

  • @rogerscottcathey
    @rogerscottcathey Рік тому

    Amazing. Clemons said there were two people... Curious

    • @billbrown8166
      @billbrown8166 Рік тому

      First, Clemons never really said the two men were associates. Second, Clemons was not outside at the time of the shots. However, five people were indeed outside and pretty much watched the entire thing go down. Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides, Helen Markham and William Scoggins. These five people saw the events unfold and ALL of them describe Tippit encountering just ONE man.

    • @winnieblews
      @winnieblews 9 місяців тому

      Markham also mentioned that Tippet drove up to Oswald and rolled down the window. Oswald put his arm on the top of the car. When Mark Lane asked her whether Tippet asked him to come over, she said well no, when someone rolls down the window I would imagine he already knew to walk over (paraphrasing). All there stories of the 5 people you mentioned all have conflicting stories about literally 99% of the story after seeming one man. All the way down to what he looked like, he was tall skinny groomed hair and he was also short stocky with brushy long hair.....all like you said we're witnesses at the time Tippet was shot.

    • @rogerscottcathey
      @rogerscottcathey 9 місяців тому

      @@winnieblews : Clemons was rather dense. She said "one went this way, th'other went thataway". Lane didn't bother to take her to the location or to bother asking which way is what. Did one go back up the alley or up to the street corner and around by the cab or what? Lane was selective in who he'd talk to also. You'd think he'd have been more thorough

  • @markwinchester3005
    @markwinchester3005 Рік тому

    I heard NOTHING unbelievable or BS.

    • @onthetrailofdelusion
      @onthetrailofdelusion Рік тому

      Isn't that exactly it? There is no story about conspiracy, no mention of seeing Oswald at a party, no mention of Clay Shaw.

    • @markwinchester3005
      @markwinchester3005 Рік тому

      @@onthetrailofdelusion There's just to much evidence.

  • @jessclayton
    @jessclayton Рік тому

    Garrison is an awesome guy! I very much enjoy listening to and watching him.

  • @Cjnm50
    @Cjnm50 Рік тому

    "David farry flew to....."tape side ends "Now Mr brothers we have turned the tape over" ahahhhhhhhhh Damn tape technology-!! Thanks for sharing none the less...important to here the first hand witnesses and first hand accounts

  • @richardlucas9272
    @richardlucas9272 Рік тому

    You can quibble with the minutiae but his story squares with the other accounts of the flights conducted by Ferrie and others.

    • @onthetrailofdelusion
      @onthetrailofdelusion Рік тому

      are you kidding me? Nothing squares with reality. Broshears was not Ferrie's roommate. Ferrie was in New Orleans during the assassination. He only drove to Houston at night - and he went with two friends who were with him the entire time.

    • @richardlucas9272
      @richardlucas9272 Рік тому

      @@onthetrailofdelusion the essential conspiracy is the same. CIA, Marcelo, Ferrie, Oswald. The whole “Bay of Pigs thing”. Just another regime change - this time in our own country.

    • @onthetrailofdelusion
      @onthetrailofdelusion Рік тому

      @@richardlucas9272 Ferrie had nothing to do with Oswald. Stop reading conspiracy nonsense books. I have traveled around the united States visiting every archive with primary Garrison material - Ferrie did not know Oswald. www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/did-david-ferrie-know-lee-harvey-oswald

    • @richardlucas9272
      @richardlucas9272 Рік тому

      @@onthetrailofdelusion when is your book out?

    • @onthetrailofdelusion
      @onthetrailofdelusion Рік тому

      @@richardlucas9272 I have three books out: My first is I was a Teenage JFK Conspiracy Freak. Then, I wrote a book about Jim Garrison called On the Trail of Delusion -- Jim Garrison: The Great Accuser, and my new book is Oliver Stone's Film-Flam: The Demagogue of Dealey Plaza.

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack Рік тому

    in a radio interview you posted ( The Stan Bohrman Show with Raymond Broshears July 1968) at 12:11 he said he WAS David Ferries roommate, but in this interview he said he wasnt.

  • @hairypolack
    @hairypolack Рік тому

    He tells the radio caller that he WAS David Ferries roommate, but on your recently posted NARA interview, he said he never was David Ferries roommate- just crashed there for 2 nights.

    • @TheArtimusMaximus
      @TheArtimusMaximus Рік тому

      In those days they would have assumed they were a couple and the Rev would proloy know more...