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I totally agree Mats, many of these animals live for the most part in groups and so self sacrifice could be as integral to evolution as other strengths; if you look at Cyprinidae fish they do various competitive and agonistic behaviours yet also work together, this is typical of flocks of songbirds too. Cyprinids in an environment upon sighting a predator fish, the bravest ones will scout out closer to the predator to check it out while weaker and more fearful ones wait for the alarm. Also weaker individuals will follow more acute fish in order to find food which is typical of songbird flocks too. This would be tolerated as even the stronger individuals are safer with companions than alone. This kind of behaviour also allows for learning, I've even seen fish learn from other species! Another thing with most Cyprinids are their release of the hormone Schreckstoff upon being bitten/eaten; which scents the water and terrifies conspecifics into hiding. This chemical does nothing for the individual and this even doesn't put off predators but merely serves to warn others. Each species of Cyprinid once separated as a water source is cut off can evolve as their own group/species and as you say, they do this as a group and so self-sacrifice and all the other behaviours come together doing this. As Dr Brown says, the species DNA is evolving by interacting with its environment not in a vacuum, but what is also in that environment are members of its own species.

@@jonstfrancis Thanks for all that info! So many cool things going on. I wonder what the specifics of the arguments against group-selection are then, Ill try to read more about it. Surely someone like Dawkins would be familiar with these phenomena as well

@@frilansspion I don't know much about the schools of evolutionary thought. I do find that most laypeople (I'm also layperson) have a wrong idea of Darwin's "survival of the fittest" as it if is all about individual tooth and claw and all about "weaker" individuals dying which I'm sure is not what Darwin had in mind. Most young animals and plants die regardless of health in a cruel "massacre of the innocents" that Nature has because as much as the environment nurtures it also endangers. I suppose bottlenecking species through constant culls may be one process influencing evolution.

@@jonstfrancis Well…as you say there is a bit of all sides. But it sure can be pretty brutal out there, ”survival of the fittest” is pretty apt I think. There are so many flocking and symbiotic species though, so helping out and living together is obviously also a way to be ”fit”. The issue is some technical detail or framing Im sure, of the actual DNA transfer. Or something.

@@frilansspion I agree, I think Darwin meant "fit" for the environment. It is brutal out there lol