Відео

Very astute observation

@@daleappleton1070 Apart from the fact that it’s fashion not historical. It’s proven that Haydn favoured large orchestras whenever possible, there was a performance of “The Creation” in his time with an orchestra of around 120!

That aside, this is however a very enjoyable performance and not too weak as some “period” bands can be. 😁.

Dew is tiny drops of water and 'Levy Dew' means imposing tiny drops of water and refers to an old custom of sprinkling people and the doors of houses, usually using a sprig of evergreen, with water freshly drawn from a well at New Year.

Merci pour l'explication 😊

This point is not universally agreed amongst musicologists, and I remain unconvinced that German and Austrian Latin pronunciation can be lumped together as though they were the same thing. The problem is that throughout the eighteenth century, Italian was the musical lingua franca across the continent: Italian music was played everywhere, Italian opera was heard in every opera house, Italian composers, musicians, and singers were to be found in every city in Europe. In short, Italian was the dominant musical cultural influence; but whilst this was marginally less so in Protestant North Germany, it was more so in Catholic South Germany, and I would suggest overwhelmingly so in Austria, and in Vienna in particular. Therefore, in terms of sacred music, I think it very likely that the sacred works of Mozart, Haydn, et al, would more likely have been sung using an Italianised Latin similar to that used in the English-speaking world today, rather than the ‘Germanic’ pronunciation you suggest. In short, I think a German pronunciation of Latin may be more likely in the North, but an Italian pronunciation far more likely in the South ie Vienna, and therefore Haydn (whose Italian was native fluent, and whose Latin was excellent) may well *not* have used the ‘German/Austrian Latin’ you suggest, but in fact used and expected an Italianised Latin. I would be interested to hear other views on this not very well-researched area. Incidentally, I have suggested elsewhere that it is a pity the EU has never managed to coordinate a common approach to the teaching and pronunciation of Latin. I find German performances of Latin texts as unendurable as they must find the Italianised English pronunciations, and what you perceive as mispronunciation has obviously hit a nerve - which I fully understand. I have no interest in whether a common guide would be English, German, Italian, French, Spanish or any other national tradition of pronunciation, or if it was a mix of several, but I think it might be a good idea if everyone was taught a common agreed pronunciation. Dona nobis *pacem* is an obvious example of discordant diversity - a common approach to teaching would mean euphony restored across Europe, and we could all listen without the regular jarring moments.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 But the chief point is that Italian Latin in this music is simply wrong.

@@ransomcoates546 Not sure I understand your point; I’ve gone to some lengths to explain why I think Haydn and other 18th century composers may well have used an Italianised pronunciation of Latin. If Italian Latin is ‘…simply wrong’, then it’s 100% certain that German Latin is likely to be equally wrong - and probably more so. As I said in my original post, I’d be interested in the views of others, especially those competent to give an opinion on correct Latin pronunciation - if any such thing exists.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 The differences between German and Austrian Latin are attested. German choirs sang ‘Kürie’, for example, while Austrian ones sang the familiar ‘Keerie’. Both sang ‘e-lie-zon’. Pius X would not have been so insistent about imposing ‘Church’ Latin on the entire Catholic world if there had not been pockets of resistance persisting to this very day. Musically one sees myriad places where real precision is only achieved with, shall we call it, Germanic Latin., e.g., tuning suffers if open Italian ‘e’s are sung where closed German ones are wanted. Falling back on generic Italian Latin for all church music is to my mind just laziness. (The Berlioz ‘Requiem’ is equally wrong without vernacular French pronunciation - ‘zhüdicandüs omo reüs’.)

@@ransomcoates546 Interesting - thank you, though there feels to be something of a negativity throughout your contributions regarding the Italianised pronunciation of Latin, or am I mis-reading you. Incidentally, no less a figure than CPE Bach wrote some interesting notes comparing the German and Italian method of teaching singing, including some points about the pronunciation of vowels, comments which are somewhat opposed to the point you have made. In short, he recommends the Italian method over the German, and goes on to explain - in summary - that it is the main reason why Italians can sing, and Germans can’t. The point about Catholic Church Latin is also interesting; I have never been quite convinced that it is anything but exactly that - church Latin, and that it is not necessarily ‘correct’ Latin.

A Viscount is addressed as ‘Lord X’, and the Mass has always been called the ‘Lord Nelson Mass’.

@@ransomcoates546 The Mass has never had the word ‘Lord’ affixed except in error. Haydn named this Mass himself - written in 1798 - as the *Missa in angustiis.* Haydn’s Latin was excellent, and it translates into English as Mass in straightened times. The nickname *’Nelson Mass’,* or in German *’Nelsonmesse,’* originated two years later when it was possibly played whist Nelson and the British entourage visited Eisenstadt 6-9 September 1800. (I personally doubt that this ever happened, partly because I cannot see the esteemed British visitors who would have been almost all Anglican.* being asked to sit through a Catholic mass). Regardless, the name has stuck, the only oddity being the penchant in the US to add the entirely spurious ‘Lord’ to the nickname which is not used in the rest of the English-speaking world, nor as I have indicated, elsewhere. * Nelson’s father was the Rector of the parish church in Burnham Thorpe, Norfolk, England.

@@elaineblackhurst1509 The nickname "Nelson Mass" was probably due to propaganda after the Battle of Nile and in the lead up to the Second Coalition. I fully concur that the 'Lord' appears to be an Americanism, and is not routinely used anywhere else, at least to my knowledge. Nelson was elevated to 'Viscount' in 1801, and was only made Baron Nelson of the Nile in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of the Nile, although the correct address would still have been Lord Nelson when he visited Eisenstadt. By the way, I liked this performance. Remarkable soloists considering they are, I suppose, amateurs.

@@paulstevenson6975 I believe the soloists are from the (very selective) graduate vocal program at the Yale Institute of Sacred Music, which produces some of the best early music specialists in the United States. The choir, the Yale Schola Cantorum is open by audition to any Yale student, but in practice it's mostly students from the Yale School of Music, particularly its program in choral conducting.

What does it matter if the title is “Lord Nelson” or just “Nelson”. This is a great performance, full of energy and enthusiasm and the reverberation in the hall is perfect. Congratulations from London 😊

"Lord" is regularly added to the nickname in the States.

@@mwnyc3976 I’d noticed that too, but is in fact an entirely unilateral departure from the norm (though whether that matters or not is another debate). The ‘Lord’ is not used anywhere in Europe - it’s Nelsonmesse in German for example - nor other English-speaking countries like Australia and New Zealand. It’s also largely in the US that we find the widespread but anomalous use of the baptismal ‘Franz’ being incorrectly applied to Joseph Haydn’s name which is the equivalent of referring to his great friend as Johannes Chrisostomus Wolfgang Theophilus Mozart.

I have autograph scores. The London Sonatas. But I have autograph, as well your welcome to them

It's the alto who blows my socks off. But superb all round.