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PianoSens
Приєднався 8 лис 2023
PianoSens vs PitchGrabber with High Noise
The method is correct for the prior videos that put the PianoSens sensor in a head to head test with the PitchGrabber. Here we use a deafeningly loud Ninja grinder right next to the piano. We record the audio from the screen recording of both devices with normalized gain settings each at -3dB below full scale, just like a pro recording engineer would do. Listen to the result! The PitchGrabber drops out after a couple secs due to the app's inability to distinguish noise from signal., whereas the sensor continues to read more than 10 secs after the attack with no pickup sounds of the Ninja grinder.
Переглядів: 724
Відео
PItchGrabber Sound Is Horrid
Переглядів 2,2 тис.14 днів тому
First, I prove the PitchGrabber is indeed coupled with the TRRS to Lightning Adapter and not the mic. Secondly I play the sound coming off the PitchGrabber and the audio is absolutely horrible, thin, nasal, no lower harmonic energy.
PianoSens vs PitchGrabber Isolation
Переглядів 24021 день тому
A study showing how the PianoSens string sensor offers perfect acoustic isolation vs a piezo acoustic 'PitchGrabber' offering almost no acoustic isolation.
How Spatial Position Affects Piano Tuning
Переглядів 229Місяць тому
Over a given time window of measurement, each partial has 3 parameters: Frequency, Amplitude, Phase A mic position affects all 3 parameters, and most importantly for tuning, the frequency is affected spatially by a spectral tilt induced by the soundboard resonances in the acoustic wave. The position of a string motion sensor on the wire does not affect frequency accuracy, but only affects ampli...
Piano Moving Target Part 2
Переглядів 112Місяць тому
• Please first watch Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/MraLJ4wx-Sk/v-deo.html • In Part 1, we examined a single example, C5, and examined the differences from intentionally spreading the unisons by 0.5¢, and comparing them to a tighter tuning with virtually no spread. • In this Part 2, we examine the behavior of the C’s, from C2-C7: • Partial Drift in Frequency; Partial Drifts in Amplitude • Correspondi...
Unison Tuning Beats and Power Loss
Переглядів 872 місяці тому
In this video we clearly explain and dramatically illustrate what causes the beating in unison tuning, showing how much power loss there is as a result.
The Piano Sound Is A Moving Target
Переглядів 5722 місяці тому
The piano sound is never in a steady state of settled frequency, hence, a ‘moving target.’ “When, in time, do we set the tuning, and on what basis?” This phenomenon is not universally understood, nor agreed upon. We are left with many subjective methods, many diametrically opposed. Solution: Make ‘new technology’ to show in real time how the partials of a given string are changing frequency ove...
Unison Tuning: No Spread vs. Spread
Переглядів 1372 місяці тому
In this video I am going to demonstrate unison tuning and the consequences of spreading the tuning, comparing the ideal model with an actual recording made on a real piano. I show the actual waveforms of in-tune unisons with that of spread unisons, and play the actual results of both cases. When the string tunings are spread, we see and hear a null, followed by a rise, followed by another null ...
Unison Sustain Tuning
Переглядів 2012 місяці тому
There is an endless debate that I would like to once and for all end. I call it the Myth of Unison Sustain and Bloom. Mathematically I 'prove' that spreading unison frequency actually robs both power and sustain. I then present an example tuning all 3 unions to zero cents on an attack window of 700 milliseconds, then observing and listening to the sound for 13 seconds thereafter. The example sh...
Light Needling the Grooves
Переглядів 1,1 тис.4 місяці тому
Piano Voicing the Grooves with Very Light Needling
Five Partial Chords Chromatically Ascending: Tuning Check
Переглядів 2715 місяців тому
After freshly tuning my Fazioli F308 piano, I tested the tuning aurally by playing 5-partial chords. In the left hand, playing the octaves, and in the right hand playing partials 3,4,5. Starting at A0 and ending at C8.
Piano Excerpts After Tuning , by Steven Norsworthy
Переглядів 2095 місяців тому
After I freshly tuned my Fazioli F308 piano, I selected two short excerpts: 1) Chopin Op. 48, No.1 Double-Octave Passage 2) Brahms Op. 79, No.1 Opening
Five Partial Chords Chromatically Ascending: Tuning Check
Переглядів 2635 місяців тому
If you want a more comprehensive aural check of your tuning, try this: play chromatically ascending chords where the left hand is the octave, the right hand is the 12th, 15th, 17th. That way you are playing all of the first 5 partials. I tuned the piano using 'pure 12ths' which makes the 5th -1.23 cents compressed, the octave 1.23 cents expanded by definition. It balances out the partials. I us...
Piano Excerpts After Tuning by Steven Norsworthy
Переглядів 2325 місяців тому
Steven Norsworthy Pianist / Engineer / Inventor PianoSens Tuning Excerpts after tuning, by Chopin and Brahms
Piano 12th Tuning Using Custom Curves
Переглядів 4955 місяців тому
Using Pianoscope's Custom Tuning Curve Editor and using the PianoSens sensor device to create perfect unison tuning, I create a 12th tuning on a Fazioli F308 (10'3") piano and demonstrate with C1-G2 and A-E2 interval attacks. Use good earphones or good low frequency speakers.
C2 Decay of 3 Cent Over 3 Secs on Piano
Переглядів 1215 місяців тому
C2 Decay of 3 Cent Over 3 Secs on Piano
Piano Partial Variances From Mic Placements
Переглядів 1126 місяців тому
Piano Partial Variances From Mic Placements
Bb7 Three Strings to 0.1 Cents Using PianoSens
Переглядів 2216 місяців тому
Bb7 Three Strings to 0.1 Cents Using PianoSens
Fast Re Attack Piano Tuning Problems
Переглядів 1406 місяців тому
Fast Re Attack Piano Tuning Problems
The Problem With Fast Re Attack Tuning
Переглядів 2497 місяців тому
The Problem With Fast Re Attack Tuning
False Beats in Piano: Two Sources, and How to Detect the Difference
Переглядів 5537 місяців тому
False Beats in Piano: Two Sources, and How to Detect the Difference
8ths, 12ths, 15ths Demo PianoSens Tuned
Переглядів 7307 місяців тому
8ths, 12ths, 15ths Demo PianoSens Tuned
Low Frequency Spectra: PianoSens vs Microphone
Переглядів 3207 місяців тому
Low Frequency Spectra: PianoSens vs Microphone
Low Register Tuning Accuracy with PianoSens
Переглядів 4627 місяців тому
Low Register Tuning Accuracy with PianoSens
Piano Tuning: Weinrich Drift Example Using PianoSens
Переглядів 1,4 тис.8 місяців тому
Piano Tuning: Weinrich Drift Example Using PianoSens
PianoSens Wire Bridge and Series Magnet
Переглядів 4708 місяців тому
PianoSens Wire Bridge and Series Magnet
Seems like a fast Fourier Transform that snaps amplitudes to their nearest note frequency. Pretty neat!
This taught me a lot about overtones lmao
Haven't seen something like this before. Can this be used to turn a normal piano into a MIDI input device?
I haven't really thought of that, but it's possible! It reads string movement and produces the sound from the strings, which is the input into the soundboard of an acoustic piano.
cool! 🤭🤭🤭🤭
I think it's a mistake to eliminate the moving indicator (red line in Pianoscope) to get a single reading. I just spent a few hours with Pianoscope to tune my piano. The moving line guides how much adjustment is needed to get close. I found the process of piano tuning is an exercise in getting close. The "Freeze" function of Pianoscope gives the same info as your device and is adjustable through its parameters. 0.1 cents accuracy is not necessary since the people who judge professional tuners' performance accept 0.9 cents as being acceptable (which, had I known this earlier, would have taken hours off my work...piano tuning is a difficult job for people who are nitpickers for pecision.)
No one recommends 'removing' the moving red indicator. The freeze indicator is a 'target' and the moving red indicator is a guide to use for adjusting the hammer in real time to get you to the freeze target of zero at the last attack.
I recently tuned a grand piano with PianoSens at a church and about halfway through I was told that about 40 violinists needed to use the room to warmup before a recital. I told them, “no problem,” I put on some headphones, and was able to continue to tune normally while the room was filled with the cacophony of 40 students simultaneously playing 😄
Totally awesome! It is the 'real deal' device. It speaks for itself. I just need to get my customers to tell their peers about it like you are doing! Thanks. I am here to serve, let me know if you ever want help or advice. Best, Steve
Hi, I wish I could hear some samples of tempered fifths, fourths, sixths or thirds… Maybe a double-octave or a 19th (in middle-section)… I tune by ear a low octave with a 19th and/or double-octave. Infact: I tune with verituner, but not in the lower section. Here: I only compare with overtones, double-octave and 19th. To find the best compromise between thes three components makes my clients happy; they are amazed.
When the Pure-12th tuning concept, invented by a German theorist Bernard Stopper, came out, it was a breakthrough. It simplified all aspects of tuning. All we need to do it tune 12th's and everything else falls in line. Kent Swafford, former president of the PTG, wrote many articles on it which can be found on the PTG archives. No more need to do aural tuning (by ear), as a machine tuning that can detect the 12ths is simply the new way.
@@PianoSens-ey8jb Hello, I know all about Bernhard Stopper (R.I.P.). I know some people who had personal contact with him. And I know about the PTG by Kent Swafford - I use his tunings, too (available for Verituner). But to compare intervals with ear should always a skill - THE skill - in my opinion. And as I wrote: I tune with verituner, because I can use historical temperaments. Only to tune by machine won’t give the deep understanding, why this particular interval sounds like it sounds. Because of a little more stretching in 19th interval (octave+fifth; you write 12th and I know why 😉) 3:1 (octave by Werckmeister was 2:1) there is the result, that the thirds and 10ths are wider in a very minimum way. The masking of beating only works with chords. But how does it sound in e.g. Inventions of Bach which are only in two voices? Once I heard a sample (it is on YT, played by Sokolov), with a very “harsh” sounding 10th. Stopper is not completely beatless, octaves are wider-yes the Pythagorean “Komma” is not in the fifths but splitted in the octaves. There is a saying in Germany: “Jeder Vorteil wird mit einem Nachteil erkauft.“ Translated 1:1: “For every advantage you buy, you will get another disadvantage.” In other words: “No advantage with another disadvantage.” Think, you know what I mean. The disadvantages are-in my opinion-the wider thirds and 10ths. But that is MY opinion. And I think it is okay to tell that. Kent Swafford has a 26th tuning… Also interesting… And that is, what I meant, what I wanted to hear in your vid --- thirds, sixths, 10ths… The octave you’ve showed is absolutely remarkable! The first trust is the app, because of my acute hearing loss 5 years ago (that was the reason to buy Verituner); especially in the high treble I love to use the app - BUT the final control and trust is my ear. And after the acute hearing loss I learned new. And I love to tune by ear. I have built some wood-tools---for the 19th (octave+fifth) and the double-octave. :)
@@SickNick1998 Nick, if you really want unreal never-hear-before tuning, use the PianoSens device. I was shocking everyone at the convention last week with it. My users are all saying they are getting tunings they didn't think possible before. PianoSens.com
Those are top grade mics placed in good positions. Imagine how much wilder the deviations would be where ETD mics end up getting positioned for a tuning- which is to say for good line-of-sight between the tuner and the screen, not good audio. Not to mention whatever weird characteristics cheap built-in device mics have.
Great work! My whole life I have tuned on the sustain tail, whether by ear or ETD, because that was really the only way we could tune. I look forward to using a new method snap-shotting the pitch a fraction of a second in as suggested by your work and hearing the aesthetic result as music is played. The idea of tuning to a better standard than has ever been possible before in history is very exciting.
With this device would you tune A0 to 27.5 htz? how does this compensate for the idea of stretching octaves at the upper and lower ends of the keyboard
The device is best thought of as a super microphone that does not hear acoustic waves but reads string movement at the source instead. It has a frequency response from 0 Hz to 22 kHz. It has no problem reading 27.5 Hz. Your ETD software would determine how to interpret your tuning overall. The device has no bias of frequency.
Hi Steven, saw your pianoworld post. Very interesting comparison. There is a technique called the "phase vocoder" that builds on the STFT which can produce the kind of frequency and amplitude analysis you're talking about here. I first encountered it many ears ago in the book "Digital Audio Signal Processing: An Anthology" by John Strawn, but I'm sure there are other explainers online now.
I am familiar with the phase vocoder. I use a different approach to get ultra fine grain frequency estimate between FFT bins that is better in this application. Thanks for the reference.
Interesting
You have to watch this several times. It’s the best explanation of why we need to tune unisons as perfectly as possible- how it affects the tone. The second example in the video has a sound that would make me think the string wasn’t seated properly or the hammer needs to be filed. But that’s not it - it’s the response of the partials behaving from the result of a less than perfect unison. The kind of unison you would get when tuning by ear.
This is outstanding work. The most comprehensive objectively measured description of what is happening with pitch following the note strike that has ever been published/reported I believe.
What tuning curve do you use in Pianoscope?
I am using the 12ths curve.
Just curious why you set all octaves at 200ms instead of using he default setting for freeze that ranges from 500 -300?
I am the inventor and researcher for the Freeze. I personally believe all notes should be the same freeze setting. 700 msec is my recommendation.
Perhaps the sensor is insensitive to the movements of the string in the plane of the soundboard, and therefore it does not detect the beats arising from the vertical and horizontal modes of the string vibration. If the beats do occur between the soundboard's natural frequency, then 3bps must be present on all 3 strings of the choir
If I lay the sensor 90-deg on its side it still picks up less of the false beat. The acoustic false beat can occur from undamped strings, for example.
The first partial in the vibrations of the string is present and lasts for a very long time. But it is poorly radiated by the soundboard due to the high impedance of the soundboard and due to the acoustic short circuit (in far acoustic field). Human ear is significantly less sensitive to low frequencies. Therefore, the fundamental tone goes below the hearing threshold and is masked by overtones. Also, the fundamental tones in the strings of the lower octave do not participate in interval beating(octaves,5ths, etc) and therefore fundamental tones of A0...G#1 are not important for tuning
I did not say the fundamental is 'important' for tuning. I simply say that the fundamental IS present in the string.
Subtitles: tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap
Lovely. Would've liked to hear what it sounded like both before and after. Can you make another video?
Slightly less of a 'ping' on the attack, a bit softer.
Thanks!
It's really too bad there are less than a handful of truly knowledgeable piano techs in the entire country. Fortunately there are a few. You absolutely are one of them.
Just a suggestion: don't bother with trying to support Android. At my last gig, we were making a specialized camera that supported both iOS and Android, and Android sunk easily 3x the engineering effort for about 1/4 of the revenue.
Same experience.
As good as the best concert quality tunings I have ever heard. Oh, yeah, great playing too.
Amazing how clear each note is. Each unison (all 3 strings played together) is beatless, in perfect tune. Nice!
The clarity of this tuning is just amazing. I've been tuning 36 years, and I could not do this, by ear or otherwise. It doesn't hurt that the piano is amazing, but the clean sound of the Fazioli makes it hard to hide any imperfection in the tuning.
Which tuning app did you use?
Pianoscope, and with my PianoSens sensor
The tuning sounds amazing. I don't think I have ever heard better. And of course it's a fabulous piano as well. And played well. What a combination!
Thank you very much, Rick!
It's the latest Verituner for Android, on Android 12, on a 2023 Moto G Play using a cable that came bundled with the PianoSens package.
TUNIC only:pure try this
I am familiar with Bernhard Stopper's approach; there are better tools now.
Can you demonstrate it😃@@PianoSens-ey8jb
Interesting Experiment! Can you specify the settings a bit more regarding: - used microphones and orientation(especially important IMO is off-axis-performance/ coloring - Schoeps has demonstrated this quite nicely) - distance (maybe it would be better to measure at various listener positions several meters away) - which "very sophisticated sprectal resolution techniques" were used in Matlab - at which point of the played note did you capture the soundfile (attack included? length?)
It has nothing to do with mics. It has everything to do with dual modes of resonance and how these modes are resonated on the soundboard and where these resonance spots are on the soundboard, and that is why the sensor is the solution, bypassing the soundboard.
Are you marketing this somewhere?
My iPhone only has a port for charging I don’t see one for USB. How would that work?
Who tunes with a Reattack rate that fast? Most beginning tuners make the mistake of reattack rates much too slow.
Intriguing.
@@PianoSens-ey8jb I would love to. Is it possible to use the device for uprights? How will it be attached to the strings?
This is important information for those of us who use ETD's to professionally tune pianos. I was not aware that the microphone in my iPhone was introducing errors into the calculation of my ETD. It's not intuitive, because when we make a recording, it sounds good. So then, what could be wrong with using a microphone in the phone, or any external mic? It turns out, there IS a problem. That's because the microphone picks up all kinds of other sounds that are not relevant to tuning a piano, and there are patterns of wave interferences that are invisible to us that the mic responds to. That affects the relative strengths of the overtones in the sound envelope sampled through the mic. The ETD then interpolates those overtones and calculates the frequency target. But if the overtones are mixed in with these acoustic anomalies, the result is that the target frequency is off. When using the Pianosens, all of the impertinent sound vibrations are eliminated, and only the vibration of the string is used for calculation. The result is much more accurate, which means your tunings become better when using your ETD. This mic discrepancy is the reason that the tuner-technician must check the final result to verify if the tuning is as accurate as we expect from our ETD's. Thanks, Steve.
hi What software is used for measurement in the video?
Matlab (Mathworks.com)
This is fascinating. As a guitar player, I get the tuning peculiarities factoring the acoustical nature of tuning. As a recording engineer I wonder how your device would “translate” in a recording. Maybe I’ve missed something along the way…
Are you actually selling these devices? Planning to? I'm interested but need to know how to accomplish buying one.
Paul, Yes, I suspect that is the case. Considering the fact that a soundboard panel (not installed in the case) typically will vibrate actively at no lower than about 49hz (roughly an octave above A0), and when installed in the piano case that base frequency (unloaded) jumps up to nearly 60hz generally speaking. So except in the case of an extremely large instrument, the ability to reproduce those low fundamentals should be quite impossible. Or if able to, quite inaudible to our ears or microphones. Therefore our brain "fills in" the missing stuff and we "hear" those low frequencies. Even though (at this time) I am a dedicated analog/aural tuner, I have long suspected that acoustic anomalies including absence of various partials in certain notes has an adverse effect on my ability to tune some notes accurately. My proof of this is when I can't hear the 6:3 octave partials clearly (down low) and I try to "ghost" it and it's not there. One note above it's fine, but on this note it's gone. I have to use another interval or "fake it" to the best of my ability. I'm looking forward to trying this thing out. When Steve told me it has a headphone jack that sealed the deal for me. I see this as an innovation with numerous potentials. Peter Grey Piano Doctor
This also proves that there IS a fundamental of the note, not that it is absent. This is a misconception that there is no fundamental in the lower bass notes. The piano may not be able to respond to the string movement due to the design, and thus not create the fundamental frequency into sound.
The fundamental isn’t audible but yeah it’s always there in some extent.
On a great concert grand, the fundamental is about 9 dB down in the lowest notes, and that is VERY audible. My research and measurements prove that and there is an unfortunate 'myth' of the so-called missing fundamental. I have shaken up people with my measurements and results. It's hard to change people's opinions even with the measurements and proof.
I understand, but what I mean is that missing fundamental is still a concept applicable to synthesized sounds, despite obviously not applying to the vast majority of acoustic signals like pianos. Also keep in mind that everyone has differing perspectives on the matter that are all equally relevant and appropriate. Most people tend to prioritize what their own ears hear, despite them being very inconsistent and variable from person to person. Because what the ear hears is arguably what's most important. Yes the measurements can tell you a whole different story but its hard to generalize those uncompensated findings to the unpredictable world of human hearing.@@PianoSens-ey8jb
Hi want to buy but your website is not working. How can i contact you?
Hi! Want to buy you website dosent work, can I contact you someway?
Will it work with Verituner?
It should. I checked with Dave Carpenter and Verituner will recognize a USB interface like this.
How is Pianosens different from the Freeze feature that is built into Pianoscope which (also?) shows a frozen moment in time after the strike of a hammer. It also has an indicator that reflects the rest of the sound coming from the string, which drops in pitch as time moves forward. Is Pianosens just capturing a similar (frozen) moment in time or is it doing something other? Thanks.
PianoSens replaces the mic. It solves what I believe to be the biggest variance and inaccuracy: Acoustic jitter and interference. The sensor only looks at the movement of the string and does not 'hear' acoustically. The result is a very steady indicator in the app.
This would be a good tool for tuning period specific tuning systems for classical music
It is the most accurate way of tuning that is known to me for any temperament you desire.