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Jeffbear1
Приєднався 29 січ 2008
Diesels and Dollars - 1958
This General Motors promotional film, made in 1958, is quite typical of their anti-electric transportation bias in that era. They make a valid point about fleet standardization, but they conveniently omit several facts. For one thing, they don't tell you that National City Lines {NCL}, an organization funded and controlled by General Motors at that time, purchased a controlling interest in the Philadelphia Transportation Company. The sole reason and purpose was to sell many hundreds of G M Diesel buses. I question the methods and business practices employed to do this, in Philadelphia and elsewhere at that time. I am not anti-bus and I truly believe that the bus had then and has now a place in the overall mass transit system. Every mode has it's place in a co-ordinated, unified system of public transit. It isn't and shouldn't be an 'either or' situation.
What this film fails to tell you is that while Philadelphia did indeed have some marginal street car lines, with a fleet largely in need of replacement, operating on tracks needing major overhaul, there were many routes that never should have been converted to Diesel bus. Certain street car routes operating on wide, uncongested streets {such as Spring Garden Street}, with good rail infrastructure and modern streamlined PCC cars should not have been converted to bus. Other very heavily traveled street car lines, also with modern PCC cars {such as Chestnut and Walnut Streets} should also not have been converted to bus. Ridership on those lines plummeted soon after conversion.
In many instances, the existing electrical infrastructure {substations, overhead wires, line poles} should have been used to standardize on a fleet of electric trackless trolleys, rather than Diesel buses. While true, trackless trolleys of that 1950's era did not enjoy the 'off-wire' capability that modern day trackless trolleys do now. But starting in the mid-1930's, nearby Public Service in New Jersey had a fleet of hundreds of dual mode trackless trolleys, capable of operating fully in either mode and with automatic trolley poles. Those vehicles were made by General Motors and the technology existed for a modern version in Philadelphia in the mid-1950's. That would have been the way to go. But who then could predict that years later, fuel prices would go through the roof and environmental issues would take front and center. Interesting that we've come full circle in North America now with millions of dollars being spent on new electric street car and light rail lines. A fortune in taxpayer money is now being spent to undo what General Motors did back then, from coast to coast. It took decades to realize and understand the mistake that was made.
www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/25/...
Fox News reports that street cars and trolleys are making a big come back in cities all across the USA. But don't look for any new trolleys in Philadelphia. The transit authority that operates the public transit system in Philly {SEPTA} openly hates trolleys and only operates what it's forced to. SEPTA has almost done more damage than G M and NCL did back in the 1950's. Be sure to watch the FOX News report.
What this film fails to tell you is that while Philadelphia did indeed have some marginal street car lines, with a fleet largely in need of replacement, operating on tracks needing major overhaul, there were many routes that never should have been converted to Diesel bus. Certain street car routes operating on wide, uncongested streets {such as Spring Garden Street}, with good rail infrastructure and modern streamlined PCC cars should not have been converted to bus. Other very heavily traveled street car lines, also with modern PCC cars {such as Chestnut and Walnut Streets} should also not have been converted to bus. Ridership on those lines plummeted soon after conversion.
In many instances, the existing electrical infrastructure {substations, overhead wires, line poles} should have been used to standardize on a fleet of electric trackless trolleys, rather than Diesel buses. While true, trackless trolleys of that 1950's era did not enjoy the 'off-wire' capability that modern day trackless trolleys do now. But starting in the mid-1930's, nearby Public Service in New Jersey had a fleet of hundreds of dual mode trackless trolleys, capable of operating fully in either mode and with automatic trolley poles. Those vehicles were made by General Motors and the technology existed for a modern version in Philadelphia in the mid-1950's. That would have been the way to go. But who then could predict that years later, fuel prices would go through the roof and environmental issues would take front and center. Interesting that we've come full circle in North America now with millions of dollars being spent on new electric street car and light rail lines. A fortune in taxpayer money is now being spent to undo what General Motors did back then, from coast to coast. It took decades to realize and understand the mistake that was made.
www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/25/...
Fox News reports that street cars and trolleys are making a big come back in cities all across the USA. But don't look for any new trolleys in Philadelphia. The transit authority that operates the public transit system in Philly {SEPTA} openly hates trolleys and only operates what it's forced to. SEPTA has almost done more damage than G M and NCL did back in the 1950's. Be sure to watch the FOX News report.
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If the actors in this film are any indication, "standardization" didn't just apply to buses
On March 1, 1955, National City Lines took over the PTC with the express purpose of eliminating its electric transit system in favor of diesel buses. It was no secret that bus-maker GM was the majority stockholder of NCL. By the time this film was made, just 3 years later, most of the streetcar lines were history.
I noticed a good many technicians working without eye protection. Of course employee's were expendable under National city guidelines. Look how many loyal workers were cut loose.
Apparently, in those days only white people rode on public transit.
Thank you Oil & Car lobbyist!
Choo choo! I'm a train and I approve this excellent video!
GM teamed up with the "rubber tire industry"....goodyear, firestone and others to lobby for eliminating the current streetcar systems around the U.S.
They were already broke and so it was easy to buy them (they were not government owned). They wanted a better bus system that would have high frequency and dedicated lanes among other improvements, but they couldn't convince the politicians.
It’s a G.M. Sales Pitch. Perhaps a few benefits but the disadvantages are kept quiet.
Como no olvidar los buses GMC que circulaban e lima metropolitana hasta los 75; me han echo recordar gestos momentos cuando subíamos a esos buses la 23 21 29 20 graciaa
The film fails to mention that the new management team was basically there to gut the existing system of electric streetcars and almost wipe out the previous management. There is a story of a PTC manager who was called into his superior's office with a list of people he had to fire that day. At the end of the day he came back into his boss's office, laid the list down on his desk and said, "Well, all these people have been fired" The boss then said, "Good, now you're fired" Cities all over North America have been spending millions of dollars to rebuild the systems destroyed by National City Lines and their ilk.
Billions! The extension of the light rail in the city of Charlotte from the center city to the University was over $1 billion. The just-opened green line extension in Boston is 4 miles long and cost almost $1 billion dollars a mile
You cant beat 2 stroke diesels hellava lot better than eletronic junk today !!
Wonderful. Back when public transit cared about turning a profit. Now the transit systems demand endless subsidies from the taxpayer.
Why do you think almost every city ended up taking over? By the 1960s those wonderful, great, fantastic private companies were no longer able to turn a profit unless they went into slash and burn mode. The PTC was actually proud of how much maintenance they were able to defer in order to stay profitable. Red Arrow, arguably one of the best-run private companies in the country abandoned the Ardmore line because they didn’t even have $450K in reserve to replace 3 derelict trolleys. Buffalo temporarily lost all transit service when their system went belly up. Transit is a service like roads, police and fire protection, libraries, etc. none of which make.a profit. That’s why they’re publicly funded almost everywhere in the world. Only American "privateers" think that basic economics can be ignored.
This film is a great example of brainwashing.
Cutting 3,000 employees from the payroll is swell for the company but not so swell for everyone who lost his or her job.
MOST WERE RETIREMENTS
While GM definitely was manipulating behind the scenes to sell buses, what's said in this cheerful promotional film was actually true for the independent local transit companies regarding the difficulties of streetcars and electric buses - their inflexibility and the great amount of extra maintenance they required. Why not just use the streets that everyone's paying for via taxes, and not have to deal with tracks or overhead lines, not to mention generating your own electric power? Where I live, the transit company ended all their streetcar service in 1941 and electric buses in 1957, without any interference or shenanigans from General Motors. It really did make sense at the time. Not to say that electric systems don't make sense, however, because now we're installing an elevated electric train system. It has nothing in common with the streetcars that one existed, however.
What city do you live in? If the streetcar lines that were removed had a lot of private right of way, it made no sense to replace them with buses. Streetcars take way less maintenance than buses, and last longer.
@@brushcreek42 There were no streetcar rights-of-way here. All the tracks were on public streets. But the total costs were not simply for maintenance: streetcars required companies to install and maintain not just the streetcars themselves, but the tracks, the power lines and their support poles, and an entire electric generating plant and its fuel. Shifting to internal combustion-engined vehicles cut costs just to the buses themselves and their fuel. The roads they used were supported by taxes, which the transit companies were already paying anyway.
The much-touted PCC streetcars had no air conditioning. People voted with their money. Try playing your favorite music on a public bus or lrv line or eat your breakfast from McDonald's and see what happens. Public transit became the last resort for people who had no other option.
It's ashame that by the time I was old enough to ride these green behemoths they couldn't keep the exhaust from flooding the riding compartment! I was nauseated after every ride!
I remember standing on street corners in the Chicago Loop when they went by, blowing clouds of exhaust smoke in my face. Not a pleasant memory.
There's the beginning of the global warming.
Streetcars are very cool, but they're 19th century technology. Tracks and wires and were extremely expensive to install and maintain. Not to mention the cost of running your own power plant. And, when the ridership patterns change, you're stuck with routes nobody is riding because you can't just pull up the tracks and take down the wires and put them somewhere else. Also, they're actually less "green" than a diesel bus. Remember that the electricity was produced by burning coal or oil. When you count in the losses from transmitting the power to the street car, diesel buses are for more efficient fuel-wise. Transit companies were pulling up tracks on lightly used lines, once they were amortized, and replacing them buses as early as the 1920s.
Good points. Mass transit works best when it is convenient (ie every 10 minutes past a stop), safe, clean and a reasonable cost to ride. Here in the US, we love our cars and we continue to design major transportation systems around the automobile as the primary mode.
You would be a good salesman for GM.
Airplanes are an early 20th century means of transport. Cars are from the 1880s. Why shouldn't we get rid of them too?? Seriously, do you think there haven't been any technological advances made since the days of horsecars and open-side trolleys? Cities all over the world are upgrading their systems and buying new, modern, flexible equipment. The US is one of the few countries that's lagging.
ua-cam.com/video/p-I8GDklsN4/v-deo.html
I'm old enough to remember riding in these old trolley buses in the 1950s, in Brooklyn N.Y. N.Y.C.T.A. 🚍🚌🚎👍Green Power Energy. Good News for the environment......AND for the health of our lungs as well !🌎🌲🌳🌱🌷🌻P.S. Get a load of the "corn ball" music, always used in government, and "big business" propaganda, in those days. Nevertheless....... Very interesting video from the Yesteryears of that time. 😬 Thank You !
Behr paint ad: NO, NO, NO, DO NOT, let your pets lick, or chew on ANY, Painted or shellacked surfaces. This will lead to blood and nuerelogical POISONING ! I had to learn this the HARD WAY, and to this very day I BLAME MYSELF for her😿🙀LOSS ! R.I.P.🐈my baby . Thank You !
Those buses are nicer compared to buses today which are just rolling rectangles.
A disingenuous video, it's not what is presented necessarily that counts but what is omitted.
most of the stores were dying out by the 1970.s.what exactly causes cities to die off? we can't continue to go through these periods of social and economic droughts..spend billions then see it repeat itself over and over again!
Many US urban studies have been performed since the 1950's. Different cities have different reasons for succeeding, surviving or dying. However, generally, the local (regional) economy of the business environment is the primary driver. Tax breaks and other local incentives to attract or retain a major business is how cities operate today. Technology and cheaper foreign labor has replaced most of the US major industries which once required many laborers. The loss of those jobs that provided a livable wage has decimated many large and smaller US cities. It's unlikely those places will fully recover soon or at all. At the same time, the development of major banking conglomerates and logistical industries optimizing geographic distribution has been a boon for some cities. We still have a lot of land and resources in America for business to develop. I don't anticipate a change any time soon in how an individual obtains or continually moves to get a job. We don't stay in one place for long. As far as stores, retail has been losing foot traffic for about 3 decades now. People still shop. We just don't it at the store.
America is the only modern country left that has not in inch of advanced High Speed Rail. We sold our soul to the devil long ago when we let GM and others destroy our public transportation system so a handful of people who are now all dead could make all the money in the world. A word dose not exist in any language that would adequately describe the disdain I hold for these people and the ones in our government and our courts that let them do it. In the 1930's threw the 1950's, National City Lines, a holding company sponsored and funded by GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil of California, bought out more than 100 electric surface-traction systems in 45 cities (including New York, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Tulsa, Los Angeles and San Francisco's Key System) for the purpose of running them into the ground, dismantling them and replacing with GM buses... In 1949 GM and its partners were convicted in our corrupt U.S.district court in Chicago of criminal conspiracy in this matter and fined $5,000." This was planned so a future generation could not make them pay for what they did (Double Jeopardy Laws) China started building its high speed rail about 10 years ago and has 6000 miles of Maglev Trains already. We spent 20 years and 6.4 BILLION! erecting (built in China) a lopsided 2 mile long bridge in S.F./Oakland that will tip over one day because we screwed the bolts up that hold it down. And nobody cares. Why? Then as it is now, Libs control the media that controls your mind. Pathetic
phillip kalaveras You had a lot of good points until you blamed it on “the libs”. Your oh so precious conservatards are the ones who support the complete dismantle of streetcar/rail based transit.
$5000 WAS THE PRICE OF A CADILLIAC
@@SebisRandomTech I concur. "Conservatives" are really ECONOMIC LIBERALS !
Then as it is now. Whoever controls the media of the day controls the minds of the people. Then; as the light rail was being ripped up and paved over it was welcomed by the people as progress. Now; when Obama and Hillary tell you we are here to help, you believe them.
Within just a few years it was all taken over by Septa.
It wasn't so much a takeover by SEPTA as it was a failure by the PTC. SEPTA was formed because the PTC, like many purely fare-supported private transit companies around the world, was breaking down. Both vehicles and infrastructure were failing due to deferred maintenance: I don't remember the exact figure but MTBF for cars on the Broad Street Subway was something like 800 or 1000 miles. The options were either to establish municipal agencies or let transit stop running - which actually happened in a few medium-size cities. Unfortunately municipal agencies in many cases haven't done much better than the private operators they replaced, but the alternative in many cases was to have minimal transit or none at all.
So much for the movie noting, "Private Corporation with private dollars". I wonder who got the scrap money for the removed overhead lines.
@@Poisson4147 - It was my understanding that PTC was running in the black when SEPTA took over just 10 years after this video.
@@OldsVistaCruiser I couldn’t find something like a P&L statement, but the PTC had been in trouble for many years. They were solvent on paper but hardly a success. I was a student at the time SEPTA was formed and frequently rode both the Red Arrow and PTC. There were numerous newspaper stories about how the PTC was cutting corners to keep itself going. Except for the M-3 El cars, most vehicles were pretty threadbare and breakdowns were increasing. Infrastructure in particular was being neglected - PTC was reportedly proud of how much maintenance they’d been able to defer while still keeping wheels turning. In essence, they were keeping themselves solvent by mortgaging the future. The Market-Frankford line is a case study. I knew one of the senior engineers who worked on SEPTA's rebuild project. He told me that when the trestles were built in the early 1900s they’d been expected to last until well into this century - *IF* properly maintained. Instead, both the PRT and PTC skimped on upkeep in order to prop up their profits. Result, much of the steelwork had to be torn out and replaced a good 70-75 years early.
And then a few years later the New Look was being produced with a 6V71 engine instead of the 6-71 engine in the Old Looks in this documentary. So, fini la standardisation, another engine type and another parts inventory because of the new models (GMC and Flxible). Now SEPTA is getting 25 Proterra electric buses, so Diesels are slowly going by the wayside. SEPTA already has a lot of hybrids, which means better fuel economy.
Every one of those Proterras have been sidelined by 2021. It is unlikely that they will ever turn another wheel in revenue service in Philadelphia or her suburbs.
Also excellent background music,too.
Typical "happy" documentarian music a la Saturday morning PSA-type "informational."
These and the successors, the NEW LOOKS (GMC and FLX), remain the best buses and were the best ever built. NO glue, plastic, computer, ZF auto.trans, OR HYBRID SH##!
They all stink, both literally and figuratively.
The executives of National City Lines (General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil and Phillips Petroleum) should have served prison sentences for purposely destroying the American public transportation system for their monetary gain.
IIRC there was a Congressional investigation in the 1970s and they were fined something like $5,000. I'll bet that hurt :(
Actually I recall it was a fine of $1.00 each.
To see how much we have learned, the new head of Amtrak is from the Delta Airlines board of directors... Since he has "experience in the transportation industry".
Prison sentences ? I'd have them executed !!
@@nielspemberton59 At least life in prison without parole.
I recall GM buying small streetcar companies in small towns and replacing them with stinky diesels - yea, National City Lines as mentioned by Audrey Petit...
In this promotional video General Motors (GM) didn't reveal that Philadelphia Transportation Company (PTC) had been "captured" by GM proxy, National City Lines (NCL). PTC was not a free agent. GM, under pretense of "modernizing" public transportation services actually degraded the system so as to drive the demand for automobiles. It was a brilliant strategy that was awesomely successful. The buses that GM placed in service in Philadelphia (TDH-5105} were good enough for one to not suspect fowl play but bad enough to drive people away from mass transportation. Again, brilliant, and also not only degrading mass transit but assuring a market for their busses and expensive maintenance parts on the way down to subsequent gullible buyers. Double bubble for GM. The buses were well made and durable but in spite of GM promos the comfort of the riding public was hardly considered. They were noisy, sooty, fowl smelling, infernal combustion devices featuring choppy rides (near wheel wells) except if one was lucky enough to procure a seat in the middle of the bus. If one was "lucky" enough to procure a seat on the extreme rear seat (virtually on top of the engine) in addition to the deafening noise one's rear end would be singed. It's important to understand that internal combustion devices of the era were infernal but electric transportation is not and was not necessarily a salvation. The early streetcar systems (circa 1895) burned nasty coal at generating stations as an adjunct to electric generating enterprises (but that tie not prevalent in Philadelphia PA). Electric power is never a prime mover but is merely an intermediary in transmitting energy to the final point of use. There are losses in the transmission of electricity but there is the possible counterbalance of "green" production of electrical energy that is not possible with a dedicated internal combustion device. Unfortunately, General Motors and their ilk never gave rational thought to mix and match initiatives that could have given better consideration to the environment and the riding public. In the old days "what was good for GM was good for America," but today we know that's not so, and it may never have been.
That’s not really what GM wanted. They repeatedly lobbied for the closure of many streets to cars to allow faster bus travel, and for the creation of park and ride schemes, called perimeter parking in those days. Look up a companion to this film, “Let’s go to Town,” from the same era. Unfortunately, this did not happen. It would have been rational. But that’s not what planners or the public really wanted. It took many years to change all of this.
GM really are evil masterminds lol
Suggested edit: "foul" rather than "fowl". Then again, considering how filthy Philly's pigeon population is, maybe "fowl" is correct 🤓
@6:07 Funny they should mention that, since many today see that the inflexibility of the streetcar rails can actually work to their advantage!
The whole point of the railroad is that by sending vehicles on a set path, that higher capacity, speed, and efficiency can be achieved. So it is an advantage in some cases.
The reasons for conversion to diesel are self evident in the video, and even more so if you actually lived in Philly and were stuck in traffic behind one of those trolleys. Hardly a mistake to convert, including Spring Garden St. The existing electrical infrastructure at the time was dangerously outmoded and would have been astronomically expensive to replace, more so when adjusted for inflation, not to mention city-wide transit paralysis with loss of jobs and revenue during said replacement.
They're not "self evident" to me and many others. Buses don't speed up traffic, they just add to it and slow it down.
Myrtone, most modern trolley coaches have onboard Diesel auxiliary engines for off-wire operation. A hybrid bus could in theory have trolley poles so it could operate fully on or off the wires. The transit system in Dayton, Ohio is now looking into the possibility of buying a fleet of dual mode, hybrid trolley coaches. All buses from the outlying areas would use their automatic trolley poles to connect to the wires when they got to a place that had them. So all buses Downtown would be on wires.
Jeffbear1 Dayton had dual-mode buses when I visited in 1997. It is probably time to replace them.
Years ago in Dayton, Ohio, multiple companies operated electric trolley coaches on the same overhead trolley wires. The coaches were equipped with onboard electric meters, which were located in the interior, under the front windshields.
Well, we do have dual-mode cars powered by either gas or battery power (hybrids) today, but to have cars with trolley poles requires a system of overhead wires and a method of charging those drivers who draw power from the wires.
National City lines' sole purpose was to come in, chop up the property and reduce working, effecient street railways to marginal, ineffecient operations in order to further hasten the sale of GM diesel busses. They even worked on cities where they didn't run the transit system (Denver, for instance)
The savings they recieved by wholesale abandonment of streetcar lines evaporated a few years after with the busses mired in increased auto traffic. The PCC car was available to properties that hadn't yet abandoned thier streetcars and that's where National City Lines came in.
Actually, the streetcars were just as mired in the mixed traffic. See, streetcars in those days ran in mixed traffic like buses, and they could not even change lanes in those days. So cars took over everything, political failures made buses and streetcars equally useless, and that was that.
yes, I remember the stench of diesel exhaust from the PTC and Public Service busses on Market Street! :-(