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Tidsdjupet
Приєднався 12 бер 2023
Tidsdjupet är en videoserie som utforskar nordisk historia - med fokus på språkhistoria.
Tidsdjupet (the time depth) is a series that explores nordic history - focused on historical linguistics.
Tidsdjupet (the time depth) is a series that explores nordic history - focused on historical linguistics.
Old Norse is not that old.
Old Norse is sometimes presented as an ancient language from a distant past, but in reality was a vernacular medieval language.
Переглядів: 635
Відео
Fornsvensk grammatik - en kort genomgång
Переглядів 658День тому
I 1200-talets fornsvenska fanns det gamla germanska böjningssystemet kvar, och ord böjdes i stort sett som i dagens isländska eller tyska. Fyra kasus och tre genus för substantiv, pronomen, adjektiv och räkneord. Verb böjdes efter person, numerus och med konjunktiv.
Proto-Norse fossils - leftovers from the older language in Old Norse
Переглядів 1,8 тис.14 днів тому
All languages have traces of earlier forms in their current form, fossilized and no longer productive. For example English irregular plural forms such as children and oxen, or Swedish dative forms like man ur huse and lagom. This was also true for Old Norse, and this video shows some interesting examples of Proto-Norse forms surviving as frozen remnants into the medieval language.
Old Eastern Norse - an introduction
Переглядів 97114 днів тому
The most widely spoken dialect of Old Norse, was the eastern dialect ancestral to Swedish and Danish. While the literary value of the East Norse sources is not the same as that of classical West Norse, OEN is still an important language from a diachronic and historical perspective. This video goes through the basics of the dialect traits of runic and high medieval OEN, which is mostly based on ...
Etymologin bakom några svenska ordformer /Etymology behind some Swedish word forms.
Переглядів 57021 день тому
Något -s i verb / -s ending in verbs på -et slutartikel / suffixed article
Runöstnordiska / Runic Old East Norse
Переглядів 234Місяць тому
Hillersjöstenen (U29) samt Fyrbystenen (Sö 56) Hillersjö Runestone (U29) and Fyrby Runestone (Sö 56)
Norröna / Old West Norse
Переглядів 213Місяць тому
Ca 1150 Utdrag från första grammatiska avhandlingen Excerpt from the First Grammatical Treatise
Forndanska / Old Danish
Переглядів 637Місяць тому
Ca 1300 Utdrag från "Codex Runicus" Skånelagen Excerpt from "Codex Runicus" the Scanian law.
Västgötalagens kungalängd / Line of kings from Västergötland law
Переглядів 176Місяць тому
Ca 1300 Inledningen av västgötalagens kungalängd Beginning of the lineage of Swedish kings from the Västergötland law.
Fornjämtska / Old Jamtlandic
Переглядів 195Місяць тому
Ca 1273 Utdrag med lokal sägen från 1273 års gränstraktat mellan Sverige och Norge. Excerpt with a local tale from 1273 border agreement between Sweden and Norway. Recording by: @sokker7953
Forngutniska / Old Gutnish
Переглядів 373Місяць тому
Ca 1220 Inledningen på Gutasagan The beginning of the Guta saga
Fornsvenska / Old Swedish
Переглядів 1,2 тис.Місяць тому
Ca 1290 Utdrag från Östgötalagens såramål Excerpt from the law of Östergötland concerning violent crimes.
Early Proto-Germanic - a reconstruction
Переглядів 7 тис.Місяць тому
The usual form of reconstructed Proto-Germanic if fairly close to attested Proto-Norse and relies strongly on Gothic for its forms, reflecting a language stage spoken around 0 ad. However, the time depth between this language and its split from PIE is vast and many changes happened during these two millennia. There are many examples that show that an earlier stage of the language was markedly d...
The Great Length Shift - open syllable lengthening and quantity leveling in Germanic languages.
Переглядів 541Місяць тому
In the modern Germanic languages, vowel length is based on the form of the syllable, and largely predictable and unlike the original system where length was completely independent and based on etymology. This large restructuring of vowel quantity in medieval Germanic created highly unstable vowel systems, and gave much of the complexity of the vowel systems that characterize the modern Germanic...
Tidsdjupet: Johan Schalin
Переглядів 3034 місяці тому
I det här avsnittet av Tidsdjupet har vi med oss Johan Schalin, som har doktorerat om forngermansk ljudutveckling vid Helsingfors universitet. Han forskar mest om omljuden under urnordisk tid och presenterar sina teorier om både hur omljud utvecklades och hur de äldsta nordgermanska dialektutvecklingarna kan delas in under fornspråklig tid. Länk till Johan Schalins avhandlingar. helsinki.academ...
Languages beyond the Roman Frontier: Part 2
Переглядів 8 тис.5 місяців тому
Languages beyond the Roman Frontier: Part 2
Languages beyond the Roman Frontier
Переглядів 4,5 тис.5 місяців тому
Languages beyond the Roman Frontier
Synkopetiden - hur urgermanskan slipades ner
Переглядів 9606 місяців тому
Synkopetiden - hur urgermanskan slipades ner
Dialektpodden: 5, jämtska och Mellannorrland
Переглядів 2116 місяців тому
Dialektpodden: 5, jämtska och Mellannorrland
Old East Norse and modern Swedish prononciation
Переглядів 1,3 тис.7 місяців тому
Old East Norse and modern Swedish prononciation
"Wiggle room" in Old Norse phonology
Переглядів 7187 місяців тому
"Wiggle room" in Old Norse phonology
Dialektpodden: 4, skånska och dialektutjämning
Переглядів 1928 місяців тому
Dialektpodden: 4, skånska och dialektutjämning
Dialektpodden: 2, den tionde vokalen & tjockt l
Переглядів 36711 місяців тому
Dialektpodden: 2, den tionde vokalen & tjockt l
The Seal Hunters - the linguistic traces of ancient Scandinavia
Переглядів 1,5 тис.Рік тому
The Seal Hunters - the linguistic traces of ancient Scandinavia
Old Dalecarlian - the fourth Old Norse dialect?
Переглядів 2,5 тис.Рік тому
Old Dalecarlian - the fourth Old Norse dialect?
Fantastisk video! Som okunnig blev jag lite frustrerad över att det aldrig kom någon översättning av texterna till modern svenska. Fast besluten att göra något konstruktivt av min frustration ägnade jag en betydande del av lördagskvällen åt att skrapa ihop en 'översättning' av Upplandslagens företal (0:37), enbart utifrån förklaringarna som du ger i den här videon. Hur pass nära skulle du säga att den här översättningen är jämte originalet? "Lagar ska syfta till att hedra de rättfärdiga och vettiga, och till att bättra de felaktiga och ovettiga. Om alla vore rättfärdiga skulle vi inte behöva tillämpa någon lag alls. Den som skapade lagarna var Wiger, en hedning från den hedniska tiden. Det som finns i hans lagsaga är till nytta för alla människor, och därför skriver vi nu ner dem. Det som är onödigt eller till belastning kommer vi utelämna. Det som hedningen inte tog upp, men som är rätt i den kristna läran och enligt kyrkolagarna, kommer avhandlas i inledningen av den här boken. "
Probably even as late as the year zero AD there were more language families than today and more branches of so-called "Indo-European". Mass migrations of Kelts, Romans, Germanics and Slavs brought a high level of homogeneity and completely different languages, as all transitional dialects got eaten through conquest. Historical evidence shows a cultural continuity among most Aryan derived peoples up until 4 to 3 thousand years ago, fuelled by a massive dialect continuum
PSA: There is no year 0. There is 1 BC, then there is AD 1.
It is said that upto 30/40% of germanic vocabulary is non indo European
It's important to mention though that this number has been substantially lowered, after likely cognates have been found.
That Belgic looks closer to Italic than anything else.
You make it sound as if there was only one Germanic language around 500AD, while East Germanic split off in the second half of the first millennium BC and West and North Germanic diverging only a few centuries later. Around 500AD, East Germanic already was a language family, and West Germanic has to have been a very large dialect continuum, that rapidly diverged in the following centuries into several languages, albeit still kinda existing on a continuum. The continental West Germanic continuum is still a thing, kinda, but if it wasn't for two major standardized languages (Standard German & Dutch), one of which more or less everyone on it will understand, people living more than 100 kilometers apart would be not far from actually speaking different languages. There's a reason for those dialects to be classed into at least 7 different languages (Frisian, Dutch, Low German, German, Luxembourgian, Swiss German and Bavarian). Sure, the Bavarian thing is debated and Luxembourgian is mostly political, but you're still left with 5 if you account for that.
Doubtful that Gothic split of that early. Also, modern dialectal diversity rarely maps well onto the medieval languages. For example, much of the dialectal splitting in Swedish happened around the 14-1600s
Lovely analysis qnd understanding ❤
I think the popular culture tends to make Old Norse feel older and alike Latin is exactly because of the Norse paganism
It is also due to the somewhat artificial distinction between "Nordic" and "Germanic" that was largely invented in the 1800s due to nationalism, coupled to the bad connotations that the latter got during the 1900s that creates this. Early modern scholars for example did not have this distinction. Hence, Old Norse gets a kind of role as "the original language" in Scandinavia, a role that Gothic once had.
Jag borde ha nämnt att "är" i fornsvenska många gånger motsvarar "som" i modern svenska. Som i "what är wir hittom" = vad som vi hittar.
And then there was Proto-Norse, spoken around 100 AD to 800 AD. It seems to be very similar to Proto-Germanic.
And that label is sometimes disputed, with some linguistics prefering to refer to the transitional stage around the 5-700s as Proto-norse
Proto-Germanic originated in southern Scandinavia just a few hundred years before and spread southward.
@@-RXB- we dont know where proto Germanic began, dont pretend othetwise. The sound shifts that define it occured somewhere around 500BC and we have zero comprehensive picture of whereabouts they originated. The estliest attestation of Germanic is from modern day *Slovenia*, not Scandinavia.
@@EVO6- Actually, we do know. All the Germanic tribes that then spread outward to places like the British Isles, France etc. originated somewhere around southern Scandinavia. Just google "origin of Proto-Germanic" and all the links will say the same thing. The channel "Viking Stories" by historian Sturla Ellingvåg also has a video that, among other things, touches on this topic, it goes through what we know about the Germanic tribes, the language and the spread southward during the Iron Age.
Again, Old West Norse did not have a pitch accent.
Why do you believe it didn't?
I understand surprisingly many words.
Hej frände. Medeltidsnorsk? är inte det överenkling? (Fortsätt med att göra fler videor!) 👍
Norrönt var det gemensamma språket i Norge och på Island under medeltiden.
@@tidsdjupet-mr5ud Jag förstår vad du menar. Vi islänningar är bara känsliga för att kalla Eddadikterna, eller sagorna, för norska. Eddan återspeglar den isländska dialekten, inom det västnordiska språkområdet. När allt kommer omkring, kommer mycket färre textexempel från Norge än Island.
Old Norse betyder alltså 'fornnordiska' och inte 'fornnorska'. En helt annan sak: f i 'often' är stumt om man ska låta bildad.
@@gudkarlgud när de väl skrevs betraktades de som samma språk, norrœnt.
@@francisdec1615 Jag förstår inte varifrån denna sammanblandning kommer. Många verkar tro att "Norse" och "Norwegian" är synonymer, och kan tala om t.ex. "Danish, Swedish and Norse".
Wodnas with no i is the oldest runic inscription of the gods name. Also are you sure about the voicing s to z in the end of words for proto germanic? Ive always considered that to be as old as gothic not older.
So the latter part of the Old Norse era overlapped with Middle English -- which modern English speakers can still sort of read.
Yes. But Old Norwegian or Old Swedish from that time are not intellgible to modern Norwegians or Swedes without education/training.
Old english was spoken from 600 to 1200. Old norse was spoken from 700 to 1400 So old english is like a century older, but yea these are medival germanic languages.
@@tidsdjupet-mr5ud Middle English is difficult for a modern English speaker, but you can generally puzzle things out -- so I guess that means English has evolved less than Swedish, at least in basic grammar and vocabulary (thought English has picked up a ridiculous amount of new words).
@@scottnance2200 Swedish changed a lot faster I would say. There is a huge difference between early 1300s Swedish and late 1400s. Middle english seems like a more even pace.
Did you do the meme-picture?
Yes. Years ago, but it felt appropriate here.
Language phases are just snapshots in time, what is the "Old", "Middle", or "Modern" phases of a language are a linguistic construction & is totally relative.
ᛃᚨᚺᛁᛏᛊᚨᚾᚦᚨᛏᛟᛁᛊᛏᛁ
Wodinaz Weraz. Cheers from Mercia
Jag har länge letat efter en sån video. Tack. Jag pratar inte svenska som modersmål dock så jag kan inte förstå något als. Kanske om du kan, skulle du kunna ge utskriften till texten som du läste. Jag försökte hitta den men jag kunde inte.
Förslag på klipp: varför förändrades språken i skandinavien så mycket jämfört med isländska?
Främst på grund av lågtyska. Men isländska förändrades också, särskilt vokalerna.
Uppskattar verkligen dina videor! Du brukar snacka om ämnen som man inte riktigt brukar se andra snacka om på youtube.
3:08 Finland Swedish doesn't have predictable vowel lengths? News to me...
Standard Finland Swedish "högsvenska" works like Sweden Swedish, but dialects in Finland do not and often more closely align with Old Norse.
Is the music you're using "Spirits of the Ice Forest" from Walking with Dinosaurs? That's one of my favorite tracks for the show.
Yes.
@@tidsdjupet-mr5ud Such a great soundtrack. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but even to this day, his tracks still pop into my head.
@@zephlodwick1009 I would love to make something like "walking with" but in the Neolithic. "The seal hunters" is a bit like that.
I used to think that old norse was a very archaic germanic language.
Old Norse really isn't that old, it's medieval. It is about from the same time as old french. It is mostly pop-culture that puts it in the wrong context.
Fascinating, thank you.
Wonderful!
Auðskilið. Vel gert!
äntligen någon som uppmärksammar det bevarade w-uttalet i fornsvenska
Kult! Veit du om det framleis finst dialektar i Sverige som uttalar H-en som tidlegare fanst i ord som "hvete" og "hval"?
Det finns de med /w/ i de orden.
@@tidsdjupet-mr5ud Å ja, så dei skil mellom w i ord som tidlegare hadde hv og v i ord som ikkje hadde hv?
Some level #Jorma #chronology fda. = forndanska (ca 800-1525 e.Kr.) feng. = fornengelska (ca 700-1100 e.Kr.) fgu. = forngutniska (ca 900-1500 e.Kr.) fhty. = fornhögtyska (ca 750-1100 e.Kr.) fin. = finska (1543 e.Kr.-) fisl. = fornisländska (ca 1100-1400 e.Kr.) ffin. = fornfinska (ca 500-1543 e.Kr.) flty. = fornlågtyska (ca 800-1200 e.Kr.) fno. = fornnorska (ca 750-1350 e.Kr.) fry. = fornryska (ca 900-1400 e.Kr.) fsv. = fornsvenska (ca 1225-1526 e.Kr.) furfin. = förurfinska (ca 1500-700 f.Kr.) furgerm. = förurgermanska (ca 1000-600 f.Kr.) fursa. = förursamiska (ca 700-300 f.Kr.) gfin. = gammal finska (medeltiden) got. = gotiska (de första århundradena e.Kr.) gsv. = gammal svenska (ca 1526-1906) meng. = medelengelska (ca 1100-1500 e.Kr.) mhty. = medelhögtyska (ca 1100-1350 e.Kr.) mlty. = medellågtyska (ca 1200-1600 e.Kr.) murfin. = medelurfinska (ca 700-1 f.Kr.) mursa. = medelursamiska (något före och efter tideräkningens början) PIE = det indoeuropeiska urspråket (Proto-Indo-European) (‒ca 3500 f.Kr.) post-PIE = senurindoeuropeiska (ca 3500‒2300 f.Kr.) rsv. = runsvenska (ca 800-1225 e.Kr.) surfin. = senurfinska (ca 1-500 e.Kr.) surgerm. = senurgermanska (vid Kristi födelse) surnord. = senurnordiska (ca 500-800 e.Kr.) sursa. = senursamiska (ca 200-600 e.Kr.) sv. = svenska (1526 e.Kr.-) turfin. = tidig urfinska (ca 1000-700 f.Kr.) turnord. = tidig urnordiska (ca 200-500 e.Kr.) urbalt. = urbaltiska (ca 1500-500 f.Kr.) urfin. = urfinska (ca 1000 f.Kr.-500 e.Kr.) urgerm. = urgermanska (ca 600-100 f.Kr.) urkelt. = urkeltiska (ca 1200-500 f.Kr.) urnord. = urnordiska (ca 200-800 e.Kr.) ursa. = ursamiska (ca 700 f.Kr.-600 e.Kr.) urural. = ururaliska (ca 3000-2000 f.Kr.) änysv. = äldre nysvenska (1526-1732 e.Kr.) ynysv. = yngre nysvenska (1732-1906 e.Kr.) surgerm. *Harjawaldaz kuningaz rīkaz, wīsaz jah hurskaz fin. rikas, viisas ja hurskas Harjavalta-kuningas sv. den rike, vise och förståndige kung Harald ty. der reiche, weise und verständige König Herold eng. the rich, wise and understanding King Herald (f)isl. inn ríki, vísi og horski konung(u)r Harald(u)r ”Sanoi herra Heinärikki: Lähkämme Hämehen maallen.” ”Sade herr Henrik: Låtom oss bege oss till Tavastland.” Ett utdrag ur Kvädet om biskop Henriks bane. "My academic dissertation Bidrag till Fennoskandiens språkliga förhistoria i tid och rum (“Spatiotemporal Contributions to the Linguistic Prehistory of Fennoscandia”) is an interdisciplinary study of the linguistic prehistory of Northern Europe chiefly in the Iron Age (ca. 700 BC-AD 1200), but also to some extent in the Bronze Age (ca. 1700-700 BC) and the Early Finnish Middle Ages (ca. AD 1200-1323). The disciplines represented in this study are Germanistics, Nordistics, Finnougristics, history and archaeology. The language-forms studied are Proto-Germanic, Proto-Scandinavian, ProtoFinnic and Proto-Sami. This dissertation uses historical-comparative linguistics and especially loanword study to examine the relative and absolute chronology of the sound changes that have taken place in the proto-forms of the Germanic, Finnic and Samic languages". - Bidrag till Fennoskandiens språkliga förhistoria i tid och rum, Mikko K. Heikkilä
I still think you should have included the icelandic ri-words which are the only modern traces of verb preteritum redublication as so: *Rerō 'rowed' => isl. reri *Sezō 'sowed' => isl. seri
Yes. And I could also have included the remnants of Germanic *ga- like granni, glíkr, gnógr etc. Maybe also "of" in poetry as a filler word sometimes corresponding to it before participles.
Isn't do-did also a reduplication?
@@jak11111 no. that's just an irregular verb and while it is partially derived from a reduplicated PIE verb, the problem is that it's a merger of two separate verbs and one of them was entirely reduplicated. Idk if that made any sense haha
Oxen as a fossil is weird as ox is already plural. So old, even the backformation is a fossil, i guess. So here's my joke: Oxens.
Oxen is the original plural. Old English had Nom. oxan, Acc. oxan, Gen. oxena, Dat. oxum. Some Old English dialects preserved a different root form in the plural with œxen/exen (from Proto-Germanic *uhsniz). But as you can see, the /n/ has always been there in the plural. Actually, the /n/ wasn't originally a plural marker but part of the stem as ox is part of a group of nouns called n-stem nouns. The /n/ was just lost in certain singular forms (specifically the nominative) which were then generalized. The point is ox has never been plural
I should also add that Dalecarlian also has the form ōr- instead of vár-.
Dalecarlian dialects have _irå_ and _min/mi_ instead of _eru_ and _með._
Bra uttal!
Outstanding video informative indeed
Fram siunī minas, ne sindi grabanizō; hijō wurdō sindi barnō!
Of the top of my head I can say a single fosalized thing in my latviešu language. The way to say - We are of the same mind - is - Mēs esam vienis prātis - what the hell is this? one / ones: n - viens / vieni ģ - viena / vienu d - vienam / vieniem a - vienu / vienus i - vienu / vieniem l - vienā / vienos v - vien / vieni mind / minds: n - prāts / prāti ģ - prāta / prātu d - prātam / prātiem a - prātu / prātus i - prātu / prātiem l prātā / prātos v - prāt / prāti No vienis, no prātis, what are these conjugations? Clearly the stable word phraze is understood in its own right and thus frozen in it is an example of older gramer. Dont remember what exactly this conjugation meant in medival baltic tho.
PN waritu "I write," faru "I go." Sw gå man ur huse "to go out of house (and join an activity/effort, jointly)"; lagom "just right; fitting (in moderation)" from dat. pl. of lag "law." Apparently we use lagom in English in philosophy to mean the concept of balance in one's life, but I've never seen it. OI styrr "tumult, brawl." You can really see the porousness of the boundaries between neighboring groups in Germanic dialectology, both old and modern. It's a lesson that comparative linguists would do well to remember when positing hypotheses about much more ancient and scantily attested groups of lects. I remember when I was first learning linguistics in '00, this stuff was almost never mentioned in regards to reconstructed languages, almost as if for whatever reason they worked differently from ours-perhaps a holdover from the neogrammarians, or all the way back to Jones or even earlier, to biblical philologists who viewed history through the lens of the fall of man from perfection. It is one issue I take with Beekes' exceptionless attribution to Pre-Greek (meaning a non-IE language of Greece) of anything that doesn't seem to follow the normal sound changes from PIE to Greek. One odd blind spot in a work of otherwise unsurpassable quality.
All the irregular "leftovers" from various outcomes of Verner's law in the older attested Germanic languages (like the example hiughl) show that there must have been a lot of stuff like this in Pgmc too, much like in any language.
Þakka þér fyrir upplesturinn.
Þetta er eigi góður upplestur.
@@svolfron6496 Mig grunar að framburðurinn líkist nokkuð vel því sem búast mætti við af málgerð þess tíma. Það er Skandinövum hollt að fræða sig um þennan hluta sögu sinnar og menningar. Að lokum verður það íslenskunni okkar til verðskuldaðrar upphafningar.
I’m so happy to see Old East Norse get more attention.
Awesome video! Who did the background weaving?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96verhogdal_tapestries
Keep these videos up! ❤
Very interesting and informative ❤ lovely work!
Another great video.
From one small youtuber to another: Great video my friend! Studying the phonological evolution of different dialects is fascinating. Thank you.
Takk! Can we be sure that the tonal stress in Old East Norse was the same as it is in today's Swedish (the way you pronounce it)?
Because it had to have been present in the language at the time, due to being phonemic before the suffixed article and prop -e- before syllabic r. The big question is what accent (when the peak was in the syllable) it was, since it differs between dialects today. I simply used my native central Swedish intonation but it could have been like in Scanian, we don't really know.
@@tidsdjupet-mr5ud most likely it was an 1a pattern
@@religious-pickle I think I can make even better ON recordings than that sample in the video. I am honestly not fully satisfied with it.
One minor comment: 1:45, i mention the diphthong /au/, one important distinction is that prior to becoming /ø:/ it was rounded, perhaps /œu/, a pronunciation that is well attested in many dialects in for example northern Sweden and Finland.
It probably passed through the stages ɶ > œ before becoming [ø] as well, as is the case in some Swedish dialects with later monophthongisation.
Utmärkt video!
Very interesting and informative! ❤
In what sense was the province of Britannia 'never fully integrated into the Roman Empire'? An odd statement.
I should have said "the British Isles"
Romans built a Wall to fence in the Picts in today's Scotland