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What’s your reasoning behind this?

@@julianrmunds it’s not the most abstract art, because abstractness is not a measurable thing. It is possible to create music that is as representational or as abstract as you want. The whole point of abstraction is its nebulosity. Also there are plenty of painters, sculptors, authors, etc. that are about as abstract as you can get.

@@julianrmunds firstly, I think you misunderstand the term abstract. Abstraction cannot convey images, as it eschews physical reality in favor of spiritual, mental, and emotional reality, which is done in spades by painters like Kandinsky, Pollock, Rothko, Newman, and Mondrian. Also, if you’re going to make universal claims about music consider using examples from outside of the western classical tradition. That being said, even music in that tradition can be non-abstract, consider Baroque dances which have a distinct physical reality that is directly related to their musical (particularly rhythmic and structural) content. Another example would be some contemporary pieces like Reich’s Different Trains, which not only simulates train sounds through its steady, chugging stream of eighth notes but by using actual recordings of trains. I could go on and on.

I think that he means that it does not have any immediate physical appearance in the same way a painting, or a sculpture does. Sure, scientifically, it does exist as a physical phenomenon, but music is not science. Music is in the experience of listening to it, and that experience does not appear physical. And the mere fact that it does not appear physical, is enough to provide a distinction.

Thank you for your comment and ideas. While you mention physical and trackable traits in your assessment, you aren't addressing the point of interpretation. When considering the interaction between a viewer and a painting, the interpretation can either be on the painting itself or just in front of it. For an audience watching a performance, such as a violinist playing Paganini (a piece meant to showcase skill rather than convey specific meaning), the point of interpretation might be between the audience and the performer. In the case of something like the Vorspiel, the interpretation happens entirely in the mind, which cannot be measured.

Thank you.

Thank You. This was a production at Asolo Rep. It is one of the most original stagings I have ever seen and I wish to see the rest of their production. Here's the link. ua-cam.com/video/Mp3TiTkcuWU/v-deo.htmlsi=2DRwooli3asMXkRU

@@julianrmunds Thanks

A very good show no doubt. I will likely get around to it.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on my previous comment. I appreciate your passion for Stephen Sondheim's work, and I can see how much his music means to you. To clarify, my reference to the "overwritten dramatic structure" was not meant as a criticism of Sondheim's talent or the quality of his work. Rather, it was an observation on the complexity found in shows like "Into the Woods" and "Sunday in the Park with George." I find these pieces rich and intricate, with many layers to explore. Regarding melody and simplicity, I understand that Sondheim's work often defies conventional structures and expectations. It's part of what makes his music so unique and profound. My comments were not about wanting his compositions simplified or made more "hummable," but rather about the challenge of navigating their depth and intricacy. I respect your perspective and your defense of Sondheim's artistry. Your input helps me see his work from a different angle, and I hope we can continue to discuss and appreciate his music together. Thank you again for your feedback. I'm looking forward to learning more from this conversation.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and comprehensive comment. You’ve articulated something really important about the nature of fandom and critical analysis. It's true that spectacle often overshadows deeper themes, and your examples from musical theater, movies, and video games illustrate this beautifully. I appreciate the point about how surface-level elements often dominate discussions, leaving the rich subtext unexplored by many. It’s a reminder that while initial impressions can focus on the most apparent aspects, taking the time to delve deeper can uncover a much richer experience. Your mention of the challenges faced by critics is also enlightening, shedding light on the pressures and constraints they operate under. Thank you for sharing these insights. It’s a humbling reminder to look beyond the obvious and appreciate the nuanced layers in all forms of storytelling.

I hadn't considered a Christian perspective on the show of course because I don't usually consider religious perspective in regards to nationality; esp. in the case of a secular state like the US. You make a good point here. Thank you.

Yes. That's essentially what I am saying. Radio-Drama will save theatre (just not broadcast on the radio... although the BBC play of the week does pretty well in syndication.)

Thank you very much for watching it and making a comment. I really appreciate it.

Absolutely, your comment makes perfect sense and touches on a crucial aspect of artistic development. There are indeed structured reading lists and curriculums designed to guide individuals in these pursuits. Two notable examples are the Harvard Classics and the Great Books of the Western World. The Harvard Classics, also known as Dr. Eliot's Five Foot Shelf, is a 51-volume anthology of classic works from world literature, philosophy, history, and more. Compiled by Charles W. Eliot, it aims to provide a comprehensive education in literature and thought. The Great Books of the Western World is another extensive collection, curated by Mortimer J. Adler and others. This set includes works that are considered foundational to Western culture and thought, covering literature, science, philosophy, and more. It’s designed to provide a deep understanding of the great ideas that have shaped Western civilization. Both collections are excellent starting points for developing a mastery of language, rhetoric, and poetic appreciation. They provide not only the content but also the context and commentary needed to understand and appreciate these works fully. Engaging with these texts will undoubtedly help you in your journey to become a more skilled and expressive actress.

@@julianrmunds Thank you so much for this, I appreciate the references.

Another vote for the something like that. Great. Thanks!

Thank you!

The distinction is difficult to suss out. ESP. With the advent of speed rap. Whereas the moment in the prologue from Into the Woods is attempting to be rap… or at least a parody, this song is definitely an exceptional example of patter.

@@julianrmunds I definitely appreciate. I feel like he and a lot of other modern-day composers really do owe Gilbert and Sullivan along with the music man for really kick-starting patter as we know what today is

I couldn't agree more, patter songs are entirely different from rap songs.

Thank you very much. The music man is a complex topic. I might cover more. We shall see.

Thanks for the mark.

These are all good thoughts. I have not much to add but thank you for your comments and thank you for taking the time to watch the video.

Now where is this happening. Certainly not around me.

@@julianrmunds Los Angeles! It's not even at a school particularly known for academics

Indeed this is a topic I've considered and will certainly feature on my channel at some point.

Funny you should mention this. I am just finishing up my next video that will actually cover this song.

I'll check it out!

Thank you kindly!

Thank you!

Certainly, something to consider in the future.

Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I appreciate your feedback and would like to clarify my points. My observations about musical theatre fandom on TikTok are not meant to criticize the app itself, but rather to discuss the nature of the discourse within it. My focus is on how this discourse appears to those outside the musical theatre community. I fully support fans enjoying musicals in their own way. However, as I mentioned in my video, my concern lies in how the 'preach to the choir' attitude can come across to those who are already skeptical of the medium. Musical theatre often struggles for legitimacy on a global scale, and it’s important that creators treat it with the seriousness it deserves. Regarding your question about StarKid, I’ve only seen their show Firebringer. I was also once called back for a touring production of A Very Potter Musical as Voldemort, but I didn’t get the role. I consider these productions to be as valid as any other musical, including Pacific Overtures. There is much to explore and appreciate in their work. Perhaps you haven’t seen my video where I ask if Mamma Mia is as worthy as Mother Courage. In that video, I discuss theatrical elitism and how it can be used to dismiss challenging theatre, while still acknowledging the quality of shows like Mamma Mia. Thank you again for your comment. I value the opportunity to engage in this discussion and appreciate your insights.

@@julianrmunds Alright, fair enough. Thanks for the response, I'll check out the video you mentioned.

Funny you mentioned starkid. I was definitely about to bring up Twisted! I'm no expert, but the most basic point from the video that musicals are so much more than spectacle is something i talk about often. I showed one of my friends Starkid's Trail To Oregon to get him into musicals. He genuinely thought 'musical' was only limited to your average Disney animated classic. I wouldn't say Trail To Oregon is brimming with depth lol (I'm willing to have my mind changed!), but it opened the door to show my friend that musicals are absolutely not all the same. It definitely sparked his curiosity and now he's a budding fan. I think even the most silly and frivolous of content can be a way in. But we also need people to have the discussions had here to bring balance. It's not fair for someone to think it's all fluff anymore than it would be fair to assume it's all boring and serious.

That’s kind. Thank you.

Which circle of hell particularly?

@@julianrmunds I commented in irritation. Third circle should do it; nothing too extreme.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience and insights! I completely agree that Hadestown provides a unique space for each actor to bring their own interpretation to the roles. It's incredible to see how different actors like Damon Daunno, Reeve Carney, Jordan Fisher, and Brandon Cameron can each bring distinct qualities to Orpheus, highlighting various aspects of his character. I'm thrilled you got to see such a phenomenal performance live. Your appreciation for the nuances each actor brings truly reflects the living, evolving nature of this beautiful musical.

I saw Brandon Cameron as well and he is amazing. None of the Orpheuses are bad, they’re just different and that’s what makes it so beautiful.

I have tickets to see Hadestown in 2 weeks on Broadway. Haven’t been to Broadway since pre-COVID.

Thank you so much for your insightful comment! I completely agree with your perspective that Musical Theatre should be seen as a medium rather than just a genre. It's a diverse and rich form of expression that encompasses everything from light comedy to profound, thematic works. Light comedic musicals, while seemingly straightforward, often carry layers of depth and can be quite heavy in their own right. Your support and kind words mean a lot, and I'm glad the video resonated with you. Let's continue to broaden the conversation about the incredible range within Musical Theatre!

I have indeed been in this situation.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and for engaging in this discussion. I appreciate your passion for musical theatre and the insights you've provided based on your experience since 2005. I see where you're coming from, however I see things in a different way. I want to point out a few areas that might be worth reconsidering. When we rely heavily on personal experience to support our claims, it can sometimes fall into what’s called the anecdotal fallacy. While your experience is valuable, it may not represent the broader picture of fan behavior across all platforms. Additionally, it’s possible that there might be a bit of a misunderstanding here. The original point might not be that fans don't discuss themes at all, but perhaps that these discussions aren't as visible or prevalent in mainstream platforms. This subtle difference is important, as it shapes our understanding of the argument. Your mention of people needing to look in the right places is valid, but it can also come across as shifting the burden of proof, implying that it's the responsibility of the other person to find these discussions rather than providing more concrete examples yourself. That said, I absolutely agree that there are passionate communities discussing themes in musical theatre, and platforms like LiveJournal, Tumblr, and AO3 are fantastic examples of this. Maybe we can find common ground in recognizing that while these discussions do exist, increasing their visibility might help more people appreciate the depth and richness of musical theatre fandom. Thanks again for the thoughtful dialogue. It's conversations like these that help us all see different perspectives and grow in our understanding.

@@julianrmunds Hi Julian, thanks for replying. Ironically, the logical fallacy you're talking about is present immediately in your discussion of fan behaviour quote: "often I've observed a tendency among those immersed in musicals to focus solely on surface level aspects like the entertainment value or the quirks of performers" which in your context is providing a premise for a conclusion that is fallacious, like you say. If you're going to argue that more of something is needed, and your preceding premise is that it doesn't exist based only on your experience, then you're falling into that trap entirely. That was my point. I agree with your point about visibility. I believe this is algorithm centred since most of the platforms that currently exist are framed by these. You might need to look outside what is, by no means your fault, an echochamber, regardless of how careful you might be with the algorithm. That is why I listed platforms that are/easily can be non-algorithmic. This is not shifting of proof, I believe you are using this term incorrectly. When you make a claim, particularly one leading to a conclusion, you need to back it up. If I query that premise, you have the onus of proof to demonstrate the sources that underlie that claim. For example, if I were to say there's a lion in the next room, you do not have to prove that there is no lion. I have to prove that there is. I agree that increasing their visibility would be great. This is unfortunately not on the fans though, it's on the incidentals who promote that visibility, such as critics and the larger community. I think you are right in commenting about critics because they have a platform that is already visible. They can raise the exposure for fans, but "often I've observed a tendency" for critics to go after fans just as easily as they dismiss musical theatre. Fans are often seen as invalid voices because they do not always frame their opinions in the form of academic discussion. You might also be surprised how many academic voices are fans. This paper: Meierdirks, Sarah, "Could Musical Theatre Be Worthy of Literary Analysis? (Or, An Attempt at Dismantling the Cultural Hierarchy)" (2023). Honors Theses. 371, which you can find on google, discusses what I'm talking about very well. I apologise if I come across as hostile, I don't mean for this to be the case. As a trained academic with a PhD in psychology and a double major in philosophy, when logical fallacies are brought to the table I swing for the fences.

Thank you for sharing your perspective! It's disheartening to hear how the predominance of one-person plays in your region can limit the diversity of theatrical experiences available. While solo performances can be incredibly powerful, relying solely on this format may inadvertently overshadow other forms of theatre and the voices of ensemble casts. It's crucial for the theatre landscape to embrace a variety of productions to cater to diverse tastes and offer opportunities for different narratives to shine. Your insights shed light on an important aspect of theatre culture that warrants attention and change.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more! The contrast between the intimate, introspective "Heaven on Their Minds" and the grandeur of other opening numbers is indeed a wonderful juxtaposition.

Absolutely agree with you! It's refreshing to see someone appreciate the depth and substance in classic musicals like "South Pacific," "Gypsy," and "Cabaret." While Andrew Lloyd Webber's productions often dazzle with their grandeur, they sometimes lack the depth and emotional resonance found in those older works. If you're interested in exploring a different perspective on Webber's contributions to musical theater, I'd recommend checking out my video on Jesus Christ Superstar. It might shed some light on the complexities and nuances of his storytelling approach. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

@@julianrmunds : Someone, at theatre, once asked me what my favorite musicals were. I replied, very straightforward, "South Pacific", "My Fair Lady", "West Side Story", "Gypsy" & "Cabaret." She replied, "My God! You ARE Old School!". I felt so judged by her. I don't know what answers she was expecting, but my answer was honest and sincere. As you probably guessed, I don't care for Sir ALW at all, but I will watch your video on "JCS". I just subscribed, and have watched three of your videos already. Thank You for your work, perspective, and insights.

It sounds like 'Subspace Rhapsody' missed a golden opportunity to integrate music seamlessly into its storytelling. As a 90s Trekker, I have hesitation towards modern Trek. It's disheartening when a beloved franchise doesn't fully utilize its potential, especially when it comes to something as expressive as musical theater. Thanks for sharing your perspective; it helps me temper my expectations.

@@julianrmunds I'm very glad that they did it, but it wasn't as good as it should have been. I grew up with 90s Trek too, TNG was a significant part of my childhood. I lost interest around _Enterprise_ with its apparent attitude of "We've done a Black captain, we've done a female captain, now that those boxes are ticked we can get back to putting cishet white men in the centre of everything.", but _Discovery_ got me back. It’s got plenty of ups and downs of its own, of course, but it’s sad that just as it’s really finding its feet and starting to run, it’s being cancelled.

Ditto.

Please don’t hesitate to write more of an analysis of Into The Woods if you want to! I’d certainly enjoy it. Though I may not be your entire fan base, I’d wager that quite a lot of us feel a long analysis of the dramatic engineering of the show and songs would be less subjugation than education (and entertainment, too!) Just *don't* overexert yourself, for our sakes. Do it if you want to, of course…

I certainly will consider it. I have my full score that should be used.

@@julianrmunds Forgive me, it seems that my message was riddled with mistakes (due to it being typed up on my phone). I mean to clarify to *not* overexert yourself! Finishing videos because others want you to instead of because you want to is not good for you at all. It is much better for you to take your time with it, than risk spiraling into burnout, please!

Your interpretation of The Greatest Showman's themes and artistic elements is intriguing! It sounds like the film offers a compelling exploration of the 'American Dream' and the consequences of relentless ambition. Even without having seen it myself, your insights shed light on its depth. Thanks for sharing!

@@julianrmunds I can't recommend it strongly enough. As a songwriter, I tend to be a bit of a snob when it comes to lyrics, but the other side of that coin is that a well written line, matched with a melody that moves with the meaning of the words, will bring me to tears. Well, I cried eight times when I first saw _The Greatest Showman_ because the songs are that good!

This is a production of Mozart's Die Zauberflote or The Magic Flute.

Thanks for the sub!

Totally agree! I’ve been looking for a video that does exactly this for so long, and it’s written so well! Thank you!

Wow, thank you!

It's wonderful to hear how deeply you connect with Into The Woods! The richness of its storytelling certainly seems tailor-made for the curious mind, like yours, always hungry for more. The layers of meaning woven into its narrative offer endless exploration, and it's fantastic that it keeps you engaged even after multiple viewings. It's a testament to the enduring power of musical theater to captivate and provoke emotions. Here's to many more journeys into the woods, uncovering new treasures each time!

What’s your reasoning behind this?

@@julianrmunds Sometimes I like to click on random videos in my recommended and comment something purely based on the title without watching it at all :)

@@gurkenhamster ha!

Ok I'll get to working on it.

Thank you immensely for your thoughtful comment! It's incredibly heartening to know that this essay resonated with you and sparked a sense of reinvigoration. Your words beautifully capture the frustration many of us feel with the current discourse surrounding musical theatre. Perhaps it's time for us to collectively explore and develop a poetics that honors the unique expressive potential of our medium. Let's continue to champion the power of theatrical magic and pave the way for a richer, more nuanced understanding of musical theatre as an art form. Once again, thank you for sharing your perspective!

Hi! I make videos about theatrical magic from this exact perspective.